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Re: What are you playing now?
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Re: What are you playing now?
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I HATE the Sharks..... The rest of the game is good but the Sharks.... they can go to hell.
Having to do the bots and get them into the tanks...... while avoiding the sharks AGAIN......
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Re: What are you playing now?
Look behind you! A three-headed monkey!
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For short-term sessions, I'm playing OlliOlli on the 3DS. It's fun but holy crap it WILL make your hand cramp. The Tony Hawk Pro Skater style of performing tricks does not translate well to the circle pad.
Re: What are you playing now?
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Spoiler:
Re: What are you playing now?
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Re: What are you playing now?
Gettin' Old!
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Professor Yoshi wrote:
Been on a binge of superb games. First I played Silent Hill 2. Fucking. Wow. What a game. Now I see why everyone raves about this one. Wow. Such symbolism. Much art. Wow. Then I decided to give Metal Gear Solid a go. First game in the series was amazing, and I'm currently in the middle of Sons of Liberty. Raiden is so Apollo it's crazy. Not sure what I'll go for after the Metal Gear Solid series is over. Gotta give that a think, really
Spoiler:
cesar26100 wrote:
I recently finished MGS2.It is the first game i played in the Metal Gear Solid series.I liked the game,but the only thing I understood about the ending is...well,something happened,I guess.I am also playing Castlevania-Curse of Darkness,I finished the Infinite Corridor level,now I'm going for some extras before trying the final level,though I am stuck at the fight with Nuculais at Level 49 (btw its first form and the rooms leading to it are pretty terrifying,especially those weird Silent-Hill style enemies that don't give you any experience or items that appear during the fight with Legion.) Speaking of Silent hill,I have been playing Silent hill 4 lately,though I am not that far into the game yet.I am also planning on re-playing some of the first ps2 games I got.(Naruto ultimate ninja 2 and 3,Enter the matrix,Need for speed underground 2 and Ford mustang racing 3...at least that is what I think it was called)
Result! Good taste Yoshi you are in for some fun time.
cesar26100 wrote:
I recently finished MGS2.It is the first game i played in the Metal Gear Solid series.I liked the game,but the only thing I understood about the ending is...well,something happened,I guess.I am also playing Castlevania-Curse of Darkness,I finished the Infinite Corridor level,now I'm going for some extras before trying the final level,though I am stuck at the fight with Nuculais at Level 49 (btw its first form and the rooms leading to it are pretty terrifying,especially those weird Silent-Hill style enemies that don't give you any experience or items that appear during the fight with Legion.) Speaking of Silent hill,I have been playing Silent hill 4 lately,though I am not that far into the game yet.I am also planning on re-playing some of the first ps2 games I got.(Naruto ultimate ninja 2 and 3,Enter the matrix,Need for speed underground 2 and Ford mustang racing 3...at least that is what I think it was called)
Heh don't sweat it you aren't meant to understand that much of MGS2, leaves you on a cliffhanger for more and wraps up beautifully in MGS4.
Also go Enter the Matrix! I loved that game!
I remember we hooked up the PS2 to the projector and played it on the wall all night. Somebody sat downstairs on the computer looking into how deep the "hacking" system (an extremely elaborate system for cheat codes) would go and shouting instructions up to the guy on the game. Fun times
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Re: What are you playing now?
I've felt worse.
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Pierre wrote:
cesar26100 wrote:
I recently finished MGS2.It is the first game i played in the Metal Gear Solid series.I liked the game,but the only thing I understood about the ending is...well,something happened
Heh don't sweat it you aren't meant to understand that much of MGS2, leaves you on a cliffhanger for more and wraps up beautifully in MGS4.
Unless you consider that Kojima originally intended for the series to end with MGS2; in which case, you might want to read up on this fifteen-part analysis of the ending.
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Re: What are you playing now?
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sumguy28 wrote:
Pierre wrote:
cesar26100 wrote:
I recently finished MGS2.It is the first game i played in the Metal Gear Solid series.I liked the game,but the only thing I understood about the ending is...well,something happened
Heh don't sweat it you aren't meant to understand that much of MGS2, leaves you on a cliffhanger for more and wraps up beautifully in MGS4.
Unless you consider that Kojima originally intended for the series to end with MGS2; in which case, you might want to read up on this fifteen-part analysis of the ending.
And people have the gall to complain about XIII's datalog.
C-A
Re: What are you playing now?
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Re: What are you playing now?
Gettin' Old!
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sumguy28 wrote:
Pierre wrote:
cesar26100 wrote:
I recently finished MGS2.It is the first game i played in the Metal Gear Solid series.I liked the game,but the only thing I understood about the ending is...well,something happened
Heh don't sweat it you aren't meant to understand that much of MGS2, leaves you on a cliffhanger for more and wraps up beautifully in MGS4.
Unless you consider that Kojima originally intended for the series to end with MGS2; in which case, you might want to read up on this fifteen-part analysis of the ending.
Hmm did he plan on ending it there? Strange but if so he salvaged it well.
@Cat: Yeah, Metal Gear explains it's stuff, then it reveals MORE about that stuff later on that makes for great plot twists. It's satisfying and moreish which is a good cliffhanger. That's an in-depth analysis of people going the extra mile to explain things that some folks might not get. XIII won't even name it's characters in the main plot until they die and won't explain anything about them at all outside the datalog.
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Re: What are you playing now?
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Pierre wrote:
cesar26100 wrote:
I recently finished MGS2.It is the first game i played in the Metal Gear Solid series.I liked the game,but the only thing I understood about the ending is...well,something happened,I guess.I am also playing Castlevania-Curse of Darkness,I finished the Infinite Corridor level,now I'm going for some extras before trying the final level,though I am stuck at the fight with Nuculais at Level 49 (btw its first form and the rooms leading to it are pretty terrifying,especially those weird Silent-Hill style enemies that don't give you any experience or items that appear during the fight with Legion.) Speaking of Silent hill,I have been playing Silent hill 4 lately,though I am not that far into the game yet.I am also planning on re-playing some of the first ps2 games I got.(Naruto ultimate ninja 2 and 3,Enter the matrix,Need for speed underground 2 and Ford mustang racing 3...at least that is what I think it was called)
Heh don't sweat it you aren't meant to understand that much of MGS2, leaves you on a cliffhanger for more and wraps up beautifully in MGS4.
Also go Enter the Matrix! I loved that game!
I remember we hooked up the PS2 to the projector and played it on the wall all night. Somebody sat downstairs on the computer looking into how deep the "hacking" system (an extremely elaborate system for cheat codes) would go and shouting instructions up to the guy on the game. Fun times
Yeah Enter the matrix was great, too bad it seems like its not that well known,at least from what I have seen.I remember playing it with a a friend of mine (And taking much longer than necessary to finish it since we both sucked xD) and when we were on the final level we were all
like "Fuck yeah,finally!"...yeah I am feeling kinda nostalgic now.
Also I am looking forward to playing the other games of the MGS series since they also seem like equally fun games with a plot that will not give you a headache.
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Re: What are you playing now?
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Re: What are you playing now?
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Pierre wrote:
@Cat: Yeah, Metal Gear explains it's stuff, then it reveals MORE about that stuff later on that makes for great plot twists. It's satisfying and moreish which is a good cliffhanger. That's an in-depth analysis of people going the extra mile to explain things that some folks might not get. XIII won't even name it's characters in the main plot until they die and won't explain anything about them at all outside the datalog.
Who gives a crap about the characters who die? Seriously, do we need to know anything about Yaag Rosch that is not already visible or easy to figure out just by paying the slightest bit of attention in his scenes? He first didn't want civillians to be caught into anything, but as he became more desperate he said "Fuck the civilians, I'MMA END YOU!!" and done. There was no need for a datalog entry, nor for any explanation about anything in the story.
If a player pays just a bit attention to what's going on during the scenes, they know what's going on.
C-A
Re: What are you playing now?
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TheDoctor wrote:
Peace Walker is one of my favorites. The episodic style missions can be a turn off for some, but I thoroughly enjoyed them. The other nice thing is that is has one of the simpler plots in the series (I can't be the only one who thought MGS4 was a convoluted mess, can I?)
WhatchutalkingboutMGS4wasthegreateststoryevertold!
I loved Peace Walker, gameplay worked, boss fights were super fun, FREAKING MONSTER HUNTIN'.
Plus I felt the story was really engaging in that one.
CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
@Cat: Yeah, Metal Gear explains it's stuff, then it reveals MORE about that stuff later on that makes for great plot twists. It's satisfying and moreish which is a good cliffhanger. That's an in-depth analysis of people going the extra mile to explain things that some folks might not get. XIII won't even name it's characters in the main plot until they die and won't explain anything about them at all outside the datalog.
Who gives a crap about the characters who die? Seriously, do we need to know anything about Yaag Rosch that is not already visible or easy to figure out just by paying the slightest bit of attention in his scenes? He first didn't want civillians to be caught into anything, but as he became more desperate he said "Fuck the civilians, I'MMA END YOU!!" and done. There was no need for a datalog entry, nor for any explanation about anything in the story.
If a player pays just a bit attention to what's going on during the scenes, they know what's going on.
C-A
Are you saying characters who die just aren't important?
You spend 80% of the game trying to fix a character who has 'died' (read: Turned to Crystal with no known way of fixing) and you learn plenty about her.
I was actually meaning Jihl Nabaat who you see occasionally in flashbacks watching Sazh and Dajd from afar mostly. First time I remember hearing her name was moments before she was killed off by another boss. Yet she spends time walking throughout the game like someone important yet they don't really want to explain much of anything.
Same with Cid Raines and the cavalry. I only found out afterwards who and what he was as they talked about him post-death when both him and the cavalry had been prevalent throughout.
XIII is dumb and doesn't explain things it should. Datalogs/Codex/Encyclopedias should be nice optional information to flesh out a world perhaps with some practical application (like XII's was). Not mandatory reading to understand what the hell is going on.
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Re: What are you playing now?
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Quote:
You spend 80% of the game trying to fix a character who has 'died' (read: Turned to Crystal with no known way of fixing) and you learn plenty about her.
Oh yeah I find out SO MUCH about Sera. Like that she's Lightning sister... she's dating and engaged to Snow, which is a whirlwind relationship... she's a nice girl... and... uh... that's PLENTY of personality.
Quote:
I was actually meaning Jihl Nabaat who you see occasionally in flashbacks watching Sazh and Dajd from afar mostly.
She was played up as an important part and the player was supposed to hate her for manipulating Sazh and Dajh, though if one doesn't care about Sazh or Dajh, or simply can figure out what the developers are trying to do, you realize pretty fast that she's built up, but ultimately won't amount to much.
And you don't need to be intelligent to figure that out, you just gotta know what her behavior indicates and how her scenes play out.
Quote:
Same with Cid Raines and the cavalry.
Cid is explained just fine. Fact that he's a l'Cie is not really a big deal (likely because, just like with FF X and its Unsent, after a while you question is anyone here NOT a l'Cie?) and the cavalry had no purpose. They had the purpose to give a temporary incentive to hurry to Orphan's Cradle and were then revealed to be what they actually were: a pointless tool and cannon fodder.
Quote:
XIII is dumb and doesn't explain things it should.
Speak for yourself then, because I NEVER had any open questions left when I finished XIII and I never even bothered to properly read the Datalog. Nothing happens that seems like it wasn't explained. Even the scene in Chapter 10, when the l'Cie turns into a statue despite "going against his focus", I instantly realized what it was: a red herring that ultimately amounted to nothing except maybe make players question the ending, because they didn't realize it was a red herring. (And a way to rip Snow out of his stupor)
C-A
Re: What are you playing now?
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Oh yeah I find out SO MUCH about Sera. Like that she's Lightning sister... she's dating and engaged to Snow, which is a whirlwind relationship... she's a nice girl... and... uh... that's PLENTY of personality.
I see your sarcastic text...but honestly that's enough, it's more than we learn of Jill. We know Snow married her because he wanted it to be a guarantee he'd stick by her in spite of her L'Cieness
Even then wouldn't it HURT your case if they didn't explain anything about Sera?
Quote:
She was played up as an important part and the player was supposed to hate her for manipulating Sazh and Dajh, though if one doesn't care about Sazh or Dajh, or simply can figure out what the developers are trying to do, you realize pretty fast that she's built up, but ultimately won't amount to much.
And you don't need to be intelligent to figure that out, you just gotta know what her behavior indicates and how her scenes play out.
And you don't need to be intelligent to figure that out, you just gotta know what her behavior indicates and how her scenes play out.
Yes but they barely ever give you any clues to what she IS. Her allegiance, her motives, her rank, her capabilities. She's always JUST THERE. I got through the game calling her "Sinister lady" because THEY ONLY REVEALED HER ACTUAL NAME WHEN THEY KILLED HER. I like my villains detailed, described and prominent in the plot. None of that, the game presents her as generic villainess #2.
Quote:
Cid is explained just fine. Fact that he's a l'Cie is not really a big deal (likely because, just like with FF X and its Unsent, after a while you question is anyone here NOT a l'Cie?) and the cavalry had no purpose. They had the purpose to give a temporary incentive to hurry to Orphan's Cradle and were then revealed to be what they actually were: a pointless tool and cannon fodder.
Actually...no explaining things is important. The Unsent thing? Was actually quite a big revelation and it explained how all of Spira's government could be so corrupt as to allow what was going on. I had no idea about the military structure so I had no idea about the cavalry. Cid being a L'Cie? Yeah I want answers, it's standard procedure, name and introduce your characters when they show up!. In fairness they revived Cid so they could talk about him a bit more but at first when random people show up to save the day I expect an explanation. The whole scene where the cavalry saves the day I'm like "What's even going on? Who's that guy? Why is this branch of the military different?". The game doesn't take the moment to slow down and actually y'know...explain itself.
Quote:
Speak for yourself then, because I NEVER had any open questions left when I finished XIII and I never even bothered to properly read the Datalog. Nothing happens that seems like it wasn't explained. Even the scene in Chapter 10, when the l'Cie turns into a statue despite "going against his focus", I instantly realized what it was: a red herring that ultimately amounted to nothing except maybe make players question the ending, because they didn't realize it was a red herring. (And a way to rip Snow out of his stupor)
Sure I'll speak for myself though you seem to speak as fact plenty often. You seem to have selective favour for FFXIII anyway as we've talked over points in XIII that you'd rip any other game apart for but are fine with for XIII.
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Re: What are you playing now?
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Re: What are you playing now?
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Quote:
Even then wouldn't it HURT your case if they didn't explain anything about Sera?
She's an emotional plot device. It's enough to know that two characters' motivation is to help her and neither of them is supposed to be the hero role that the player is supposed to slip into. (Like with heroes like Link or similar) I don't know Sera, being told things about her post-humous isn't gonna change that. If they did want me, specifically, to care, they would need to spend a good chunk of time to make me get to know her before something happens to her - so that when something does happen to her, I actually feel bad about this.
If I'm supposed to feel like I'm the hero and I need to rescue her, I expect the game to take its time and effort to make me feel like I really should help. If it's simply me being more of an observer, I don't need to know. I am not Lightning, nor am I Snow, so I just take their word for THEM wanting to help her.
And again: Jihl is a villain. We don't need to know a lot about the villains. (Cause if we do, we generally end up with sobby stories that are supposed to make us sympathize with, and feel sorry for, them instead of hate them, as is what you should do with a villain)
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Do you see the black one...or the white?
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The way I see it, there are 4 types of villains. Pure evil, sympathetic, mind-controlled, and ones that are secretly good guys. Chalking up bad writing to say that a character is done poorly but not a villain is lazy. While there are stereotypes, the best villains are usually the ones that are written well. In a story-driven game I expect a well portrayed villain. Don't just say he's evil. Give me a reason why. Why he does what he does, why I hate him, and why he needs to be stopped. I think it's stupid to have double standards for how you want your heroes and villains written. If the heroes are given care to expand on who they are and their motivations, I expect the same for villains.
Personally, I like games where we know more about the villain. The sympathetic ones are overdone imo, but how they're portrayed makes a difference. Otherwise, they're just another nameless, random boss battle.
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I feel the same
CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)
I feel the same
Re: What are you playing now?
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CatMuto wrote:
Speak for yourself then, because I NEVER had any open questions left when I finished XIII and I never even bothered to properly read the Datalog. Nothing happens that seems like it wasn't explained. Even the scene in Chapter 10, when the l'Cie turns into a statue despite "going against his focus", I instantly realized what it was: a red herring that ultimately amounted to nothing except maybe make players question the ending, because they didn't realize it was a red herring. (And a way to rip Snow out of his stupor)
I had several questions, but one stands out more than others: why would the game spend it's time jamming a "we control our fate" message down our throats, then resolve the ending with something outside the control of humans, and then not acknowledge it?
Quote:
I don't need to know. I am not Lightning, nor am I Snow, so I just take their word for THEM wanting to help her.
If it was one main character who wanted to help Serah, I wouldn't mind. When you have TWO main characters whose main motivations stem from Serah, I want to know something about Serah. Otherwise, you might as well replace Serah with a precious stone and nothing would change. To quote Zero Punctuation, "Oh for fuck's sake, why does everyone care so much about Serah? Do her tits produce ice cream?"
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In defense of keeping a villain's backstory minimal so we hate them instead of feel sorry for them is silly. I look at Kefka. His story gets fleshed out and he's still as hateable as he always is, not once are you expected to feel sorry for him. It's evil done well.
Indeed, Kefka is one of the few villains where we know his backstory but it's not meant to make us feel sorry for him. But I think that mostly helps because his backstory is so... elusive and easy to miss. If I recall correctly, it's merely mentioned by 1 random soldier NPC in the Empire when talking to them. So it's pretty easy to forget and the other factor is that Kefka is pretty entertaining without the backstory, too. We hate him because he did despicable things. Knowing that he went insane when he was infused with magic didn't change that.
He's deliciously evil and jokey.
Most games that want to flesh out their evil, evil villains will shove their backstory into your face. Tales Of does that so often, it's a staple to the series and I'll be honest, I kinda dislike it now. With Dhaos in Phantasia, it was done well because he only does despicable stuff in the game and his "good" reason - he wanted to collect a Mana Seed to save his world and wanted to stop the people on Aselia from using magitek that would eat up the Mana - isn't revealed until after you have already defeated him, so it was a nice slap in the player's face.
Unfortunately, both Kefka and Dhaos have been... altered since. Look at the OVA of Phantasia, where Dhaos is already shown in a much more positive light. We have the scene of Mint trying to heal the tree and Dhaos arrives, not to hurt her, but take the pain from Mint while she saves the tree. His lines are made more obvious that he doesn't want the humans to use the Mana Cannon and such.
Kefka, too. His original speech was just hate filled. Later appearances or translations play up the aspect of his nihilism more and make him seem more sad that he can't understand good feelings like love, friendship, hope and similar. Kind of takes the fun aspect away from him and just makes him a guy I'm more supposed to feel sorry for.
Symphonia is a game where the background and sob is shoved into your face, but for the most part it's understandable and relateable.
Quote:
Don't just say he's evil. Give me a reason why. Why he does what he does, why I hate him, and why he needs to be stopped.
I'm the opposite. I'd more like to be shown why I should hate the villain, rather than be told what terrible things he has done. Forcystus from Symphonia, well, he burned down Iselia and turned Marble into a monster. Course I hate him. When I finally kill him, it's freaking satisifying. There's a skit later that starts automatically that says that Frocy was actually a hero to Half-Elves because he fought against humans during the war to make things better for them, but it's after his death and (aside from the skit being easy to skip once it starts) doesn't change much. I don't care if he was considered a hero by a biased race, he still burned Iselia down.
C-A
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I've felt worse.
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CatMuto wrote:
Kefka, too. His original speech was just hate filled. Later appearances or translations play up the aspect of his nihilism more and make him seem more sad that he can't understand good feelings like love, friendship, hope and similar. Kind of takes the fun aspect away from him and just makes him a guy I'm more supposed to feel sorry for.
...Wait, so villains exist so I can have fun, and not because they're their own character with their own motivations?
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Re: What are you playing now?
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CatMuto wrote:
Quote:
Even then wouldn't it HURT your case if they didn't explain anything about Sera?
She's an emotional plot device. It's enough to know that two characters' motivation is to help her and neither of them is supposed to be the hero role that the player is supposed to slip into. (Like with heroes like Link or similar) I don't know Sera, being told things about her post-humous isn't gonna change that. If they did want me, specifically, to care, they would need to spend a good chunk of time to make me get to know her before something happens to her - so that when something does happen to her, I actually feel bad about this.
If I'm supposed to feel like I'm the hero and I need to rescue her, I expect the game to take its time and effort to make me feel like I really should help. If it's simply me being more of an observer, I don't need to know. I am not Lightning, nor am I Snow, so I just take their word for THEM wanting to help her.
And again: Jihl is a villain. We don't need to know a lot about the villains. (Cause if we do, we generally end up with sobby stories that are supposed to make us sympathize with, and feel sorry for, them instead of hate them, as is what you should do with a villain)
C-A
She's an emotional plot device...that's the main driving force for two main characters...is an actual main character in a follow up game. Yeah...she's meant to be important. Your points about how the game doesn't give you much time with her...ONLY HURT YOUR CASE THAT THE GAME IS TERRIBLE AT EXPLAINING THINGS. Though you could argue they give you plenty of time in 'flashbacks'.
Also no, we do need to know about villains. It's important we at least know who they work for and why so as to firmly establish them as a villain or at the very least their name. As Dullahan said a villain needs to be portrayed well, Jihl doesn't get this treatment. She barely gets portrayed at all throughout the game and the characters have very little interaction with her. Characters are more than their actions, they are built on foundations and motivations, good characters (goes for heroes too) have this explained and explored. Jihl has neither because XIII is bad at this.
Also since you didn't answer I'll restate because it's a good point as the ending to XIII is one of the worst problems with it:
sumguy28 wrote:
I had several questions, but one stands out more than others: why would the game spend it's time jamming a "we control our fate" message down our throats, then resolve the ending with something outside the control of humans, and then not acknowledge it?
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Re: What are you playing now?
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She's an emotional plot device...that's the main driving force for two main characters...is an actual main character in a follow up game. Yeah...she's meant to be important. Your points about how the game doesn't give you much time with her...ONLY HURT YOUR CASE THAT THE GAME IS TERRIBLE AT EXPLAINING THINGS. Though you could argue they give you plenty of time in 'flashbacks'.
1. She's an emotional plot device FOR TWO CHARACTERS. Not for THE PLAYER. If I am supposed to identify myself with Light or Snow, as I already said, I think they would have to establish Sera as an emotional thing to me BEFORE something happens.
2. I am talking about XIII-itself. Not about XIII-2. (Where I will say she didn't get much personality added, and if she did, it felt like they were trying to create Light... Lightning-lite. And failed horribly.)
3. Those are post-humous flashbacks. They don't properly do what I want them to - build an emotional connection. I care more about Vanilla in her and Sera's flashback than a damn dolt about Sera. (And the only good thing about those flashbacks was Eternal Love in the Japanese version but even that was cut short)
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Also no, we do need to know about villains. It's important we at least know who they work for and why so as to firmly establish them as a villain or at the very least their name.
As someone pointed out to me, I believe it was Leghion, you don't know much about villains because they are supposed to be mysterious. Knowing too much about them generally removes the mystery and you stop finding it interesting because you already know enough.
Tales of Phantasia, again. We don't know much about Dhaos. So, like, he was sealed and wrecked havoc a hundred years ago, starting the War Of Magi (again). The heroes, especially Cless, hate Dhaos because he's the reason his hometown was destroyed and his parents killed. (Chester's the same, but he's not the hero and he "only" loses his little sister)
Why does Dhaos start the war against the magi? We don't know!
Why is he so fixated on Midgard? We don't know! Though it is mentioned that he's likely "jealous" or "afraid" of the mana cannon they built. (Technically correct, though more what it does to their world's mana)
Why does he do anything in the game? We don't know!
We only go against Dhaos because Cless is so fixated on revenge for his parents and home that he only sees Dhaos and wants to fight him. We're basically going against a guy we know nothing about and merely fight in blind stinkin' rage of revenge. It's not until the post-final battle/ending sequence that we learn WHY Dhaos did all his actions. (And why he technically asked Cless in the past why he wants to fight him if Dhaos did nothing to him)
That was good! We were allowed to hate Dhaos because we saw what he did, what an effect it had on the characters and why they want to kill him. We didn't need to know his reasons. Similar with Jihl. She's portrayed as nice at first, but her bitch-face shows when Dajh is crystallized. Result: Sazh hates her because he blames her for his son's crystallization and she never saw him as anything but a tool. We don't know anything about Jihl, but we can hate her because we saw what her actions did and why the character (Sazh) hates her and wants her dead.
Sure, we ultimately don't get to kill her ourselves, but the build up is similar. And it works.
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I had several questions, but one stands out more than others: why would the game spend it's time jamming a "we control our fate" message down our throats, then resolve the ending with something outside the control of humans, and then not acknowledge it?
Because Plot Twist.
That's what XIII felt like to me, anyway. Constant talk about Fate and how the characters are going to subvert it and destroy it, but ultimately still play into the villains' hands. I liked that. Too many games pull the "Fate" card and then they ultimately subvert it and do their own thing. XIII showed them wanting to do this, but ultimately they try and try, but still can't. And yes with that I mean the crystallization of Cocoon, because that was part of their focus, we just weren't shown the crystal part. (Looking at the focus and ending, though, it's easy to see that they are identical)
Only game I can think of off the top of my head that tries to subvert fate but ultimately can't really do it is Tales of the Abyss. And even that can be discussed at length whether something is subverted there or isn't. (Taking the Score into account and how it seems to alter itself, depending on what actions happen)
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CatMuto wrote:
As someone pointed out to me, I believe it was Leghion, you don't know much about villains because they are supposed to be mysterious. Knowing too much about them generally removes the mystery and you stop finding it interesting because you already know enough.
Earlier on this thread, dullahan1 wrote:
I think it's stupid to have double standards for how you want your heroes and villains written. If the heroes are given care to expand on who they are and their motivations, I expect the same for villains.
Also, I'll just leave this Extra Credits video here.
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Because Plot Twist.
That's what XIII felt like to me, anyway. Constant talk about Fate and how the characters are going to subvert it and destroy it, but ultimately still play into the villains' hands. I liked that. Too many games pull the "Fate" card and then they ultimately subvert it and do their own thing. XIII showed them wanting to do this, but ultimately they try and try, but still can't. And yes with that I mean the crystallization of Cocoon, because that was part of their focus, we just weren't shown the crystal part. (Looking at the focus and ending, though, it's easy to see that they are identical)
Only game I can think of off the top of my head that tries to subvert fate but ultimately can't really do it is Tales of the Abyss. And even that can be discussed at length whether something is subverted there or isn't. (Taking the Score into account and how it seems to alter itself, depending on what actions happen)
That's what XIII felt like to me, anyway. Constant talk about Fate and how the characters are going to subvert it and destroy it, but ultimately still play into the villains' hands. I liked that. Too many games pull the "Fate" card and then they ultimately subvert it and do their own thing. XIII showed them wanting to do this, but ultimately they try and try, but still can't. And yes with that I mean the crystallization of Cocoon, because that was part of their focus, we just weren't shown the crystal part. (Looking at the focus and ending, though, it's easy to see that they are identical)
Only game I can think of off the top of my head that tries to subvert fate but ultimately can't really do it is Tales of the Abyss. And even that can be discussed at length whether something is subverted there or isn't. (Taking the Score into account and how it seems to alter itself, depending on what actions happen)
If the game is going to subvert it's own message, it shouldn't spend a great deal of time shoving it down our throats. I can accept that their focus at the end was the crystallization, but there needed to be more build-up, and actual discussion of the whole fate vs free will thing, instead of "defy your fate" speeches. That's why Tales of the Abyss was so appealing to me. The Score turned the abstract concept of fate into a very real thing. The characters discuss this several times, if their own actions mean anything, or if the Score dictates their entire will. And it's all done with a consistent theme that isn't jammed down our throats (with two exceptions).
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If the game is going to subvert it's own message,
I don't think XIII subverts its message more so than it shows that even if you want to Screw Destiny, you can only go so far before it eventually will catch up to you. I like that message. Better than other games that are so intent on screwing destiny and manage to do it easily.
Similar to what I like about XIII-2's story. You wanna mess with time? Okay, but I hope you are absolutely prepared for the shit-storm of consequences that will bring. Most games about time travel and changing history/future, whatever, you know, they do and everything's okay. You mess with time in XIII-2? You fucking brought an apocalypse upon the world. Congrats.
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The Score turned the abstract concept of fate into a very real thing. The characters discuss this several times, if their own actions mean anything, or if the Score dictates their entire will.
Indeed, it did. Which is what makes discussing events in Abyss so interesting, since it's unclear to get a proper answer. After all...
Spoiler: Abyss Spoilers
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And it's all done with a consistent theme that isn't jammed down our throats (with two exceptions).
Unfortunately the game decides to jam LukexTear down our throats, which I think is worse.
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I don't think XIII subverts its message more so than it shows that even if you want to Screw Destiny, you can only go so far before it eventually will catch up to you. I like that message. Better than other games that are so intent on screwing destiny and manage to do it easily.
It needed a bit more foreshadowing than a single scene near the beginning of the game. Also, the characters needed to acknowledge the whole thing, rather than just thinking that they defied fate and humans are awesome.
CatMuto wrote:
Unfortunately the game decides to jam LukexTear down our throats, which I think is worse.
Sadly, yes they did. I would have preferred it if they had kept it to the pseudo-mentor/student relationship they had at the beginning of the game. I actually liked their interactions there. But no, the JRPG protagonist apparently needs to be a part of some romantic subplot.
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It needed a bit more foreshadowing than a single scene near the beginning of the game. Also, the characters needed to acknowledge the whole thing, rather than just thinking that they defied fate and humans are awesome.
This. A THOUSAND TIMES this.
If the protagonists aren't aware of the message it doesn't exist. It isn't portrayed well. If the main characters are the primary voice of the writing and the writer is trying to convey a message we NEED to hear it.
The ending basically wraps up "Did we do it?" "I guess so! We rock! Also look those dead/gone guys are back!" "Hurray!"
Honestly if the villain was alive to see it he'd be facepalming at their idiocy. So once more, FFXIII is terrible at explaining it's plot and important elements because it's 'subverted message' isn't even portrayed well through the characters. They learn nothing.
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Similar to what I like about XIII-2's story. You wanna mess with time? Okay, but I hope you are absolutely prepared for the shit-storm of consequences that will bring. Most games about time travel and changing history/future, whatever, you know, they do and everything's okay. You mess with time in XIII-2? You fucking brought an apocalypse upon the world. Congrats.
Most games actually explicitly show the consequences of time travel as far as I've seen when it's involved. XIII-2 can't explain it's own methodology so it gets a big fail stamp too.
Also thinking about this again makes me wonder.
Why on earth are the XIII protagonists regarded as heroes/regular civilians? It's not like the common populace or most government officials had an idea about the great-evil-plan-to-commit-Deicide. To them it'd just look like these L'Cie goons destroyed everything of hope and security they had, nevermind the amount of casualties that must have occurred when Cocoon fell (and was coated in fire) and afterwards as mankind battled to live in the new wilderness of Pulse.
Yet stupid little Hope gets to run the new world...
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It needed a bit more foreshadowing than a single scene near the beginning of the game
Well it's not like a l'Cie can willingly RE-WATCH their Focus vision. If they could, there wouldn't be such a huge problem in qestioning "What exactly does it mean?" after all, part of the issue was that they were shown something akin to Ragnarok and they questioned it: Are we supposed to turn into it? Find it? Kill it? Save it?
If they were capable of rewatching their vision as often as wanted, I, as a player, would ask them what the big deal was about the terrible fate of being made a l'Cie, considering they can go back and review their vision, try to figure it out from the little they see and interpret it better.
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Sadly, yes they did. I would have preferred it if they had kept it to the pseudo-mentor/student relationship they had at the beginning of the game. I actually liked their interactions there. But no, the JRPG protagonist apparently needs to be a part of some romantic subplot.
Not that I'd call it Mentor/Student, but... now that you call it that, it does sort of remind me of Tidus and Lulu in FFX. Obnoxious brat needs the simplest of things explained to him. (Difference between Luke and Tidus is, Luke had a damn good reason to not know those simple things)
And frankly, I ship Luke a whole lot more with Anise. Mostly because I do not see Luke's feelings for Tear as love. Or even a crush. She's familiar to him. He's just clinging to one thing that he knows when he's flung out into a world he knows nothing about, especially when he's in the opposing kingdom's area.
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Most games actually explicitly show the consequences of time travel as far as I've seen when it's involved.
Off the top of my head, Chrono Trigger is the first one I think of and that didn't do a good job. As already pointed out, I question why Marle disappears when Lenne is simply missing. Shouldn't she disappear when Lenne is dead and there's no way to rescue her anymore? And even later, you never see any big consequences from your actions.
Sure the Black Omen rises in the sky and is viewable in all those eras, but it's not treated as anything terrible.
Quote:
Why on earth are the XIII protagonists regarded as heroes/regular civilians? It's not like the common populace or most government officials had an idea about the great-evil-plan-to-commit-Deicide. To them it'd just look like these L'Cie goons destroyed everything of hope and security they had, nevermind the amount of casualties that must have occurred when Cocoon fell (and was coated in fire) and afterwards as mankind battled to live in the new wilderness of Pulse.
Well it's kinda hard to regard people as heroes if 99% of them are missing. Fang and Vanilla are busy being crystals, nobody cares about them. Snow disappeared somewhere along the timeline and overall seemed to have mostly done his thing in New Bodhum (and considering NORAs notoriousness, I doubt people were all that willing to say no to him. Not if Gadot had a say in that matter.) so he didn't make a whole lot of an impact. Sazh and Dajh went off somewhere, never to be seen again.
And Light is considered DEAD or as being part of the crystal pillar.
The only one that had an impact was Hope and he more worked his way into Academia and to the ranks. Otherwise, maybe I recall wrong, but didn't his father have something to do with the foundation of Academia? Call it nepotism. Happens all the time, even if people don't like it.
As for the deaths, actually, I never understand why people say Cocoon being surrounded by flames killed people. After all, all of Cocoons cities (and hence inhabited places) are on the INSIDE of the shell, so it's not like they would've had lava thrown onto their bodies if it's on the outside. The impact likely had casualties, but I think after landing on a planet that they were told was LITERAL HELL for hundreds, if not thousands, of years and seeing it infested with animals and beasts that can harm you, maybe thinking of the casualties or fall was not the first thing on their mind.
They likely were trying to come to terms with "I'm on Pulse. Goddammit! Holy shit, what is that!? I gotta survive!"
And for later, well, 3 AF we only see New Bodhum which is the quaint little village that it originally was on Cocoon. People are surviving, but overall seem happy. And after, we keep jumping through time, people are either so filled into routine that they simply don't think about it anymore or, at least in the 100+ years later, they forgot.
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CatMuto wrote:
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It needed a bit more foreshadowing than a single scene near the beginning of the game
Well it's not like a l'Cie can willingly RE-WATCH their Focus vision. If they could, there wouldn't be such a huge problem in qestioning "What exactly does it mean?" after all, part of the issue was that they were shown something akin to Ragnarok and they questioned it: Are we supposed to turn into it? Find it? Kill it? Save it?
If they were capable of rewatching their vision as often as wanted, I, as a player, would ask them what the big deal was about the terrible fate of being made a l'Cie, considering they can go back and review their vision, try to figure it out from the little they see and interpret it better.
It doesn't need to be rewatching their focus vision. It could have been simple discussion explaining Ragnarok's powers. I recall Sazh and Vanille watching a hologram show depicting various Eidolons. Perhaps there, Sazh could have made a remark about Ragnarok being ultimate destruction, then Vanille remarks that it isn't necessarily destruction, but can also be the start of a new beginning, like the actual tale of Ragnarök.
Quote:
As for the deaths, actually, I never understand why people say Cocoon being surrounded by flames killed people. After all, all of Cocoons cities (and hence inhabited places) are on the INSIDE of the shell, so it's not like they would've had lava thrown onto their bodies if it's on the outside. The impact likely had casualties, but I think after landing on a planet that they were told was LITERAL HELL for hundreds, if not thousands, of years and seeing it infested with animals and beasts that can harm you, maybe thinking of the casualties or fall was not the first thing on their mind.
They likely were trying to come to terms with "I'm on Pulse. Goddammit! Holy shit, what is that!? I gotta survive!"
They likely were trying to come to terms with "I'm on Pulse. Goddammit! Holy shit, what is that!? I gotta survive!"
I get that this is a fantasy world, and everyone's allowed to bend the laws of physics as they please, but there's really no way anyone could realistically survive the impact. First, Cocoon stops orbiting Gran Pulse and starts hurdling towards it. The sudden change in the net force on Cocoon would apply a huge amount of force on the people there. The force would be consistently applied as long as Cocoon is falling with a constant acceleration. Once Cocoon is crystallized, the people would experience another sudden change in net force, likely killing the remainder. Unless they had already left Cocoon, there shouldn't be any survivors.
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Perhaps there, Sazh could have made a remark about Ragnarok being ultimate destruction, then Vanille remarks that it isn't necessarily destruction, but can also be the start of a new beginning
Considering that Sazh was still very Anti-Pulse at that point, and Vanilla was still playing dumb and trying to not indicate in any way that she's from Pulse, I doubt she would've mentioned it or that Sazh would have believed her.
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Nagito Komaeda wrote:
Currently playing Professor Layton and the Curious Village.
and I'm helping.... a little. XD
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...I'm playing MGS3d.
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Daniel showed me 'honest trailers' or whatever it's called and we watched the Kingdom Hearts one and now I want to play it but I'm too lazy to do the whole PS2 thing right now.
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Tsundere wrote:
Daniel showed me 'honest trailers' or whatever it's called and we watched the Kingdom Hearts one and now I want to play it but I'm too lazy to do the whole PS2 thing right now.
Didn't the Honest Trailer explain the Kingdom Hearts story perfectly already?
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