Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
That's one of my rules.
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He was certainly no Damon Gant.
Sure, he was a dick but when he was confronted and cornered he got the picture, and learned not to be so selfish.
Dahlia on the other hand? If she wanted to escape the family so badly, she could have taken Fawles with her after the heist, or just told him and her sister outright that she wanted to go it alone, and thanks for the help. Since her sister was the only one on the case (with it being corrupted), there was no need for any news of who the 'kidnapper' was to get around after she'd left, so it's not like they'd ever get found out.
Wasn't that the point of the heist in the first place?
It would simply have fallen on Valerie's shoulders to keep it quiet that there ever was a 'kidnapping' in the first place. I mean, that's why she and she alone took care of everything. Dahlia would be able to have her identity changed with her sister's help (through Iris if need be), destroy all evidence of her former, so that anything Fawles or her father told anyone if they did would be moot, and she would have been able to live a free woman, although deceased as Dahlia. It's hardly as if she was threatened on any count. She was about to escape with TWO MILLION DOLLARS for crying out loud. She was FREE.
There was no justification framing him for her murder. Everything that happened after that was therefore her own fault and she never fessed up to anything. Using Iris as an excuse for her 'plan going to hell', thus burdening Iris with her entire being.... If that wasn't pathetic, I don't know what is. Iris was getting involved with something that questioned her morals (uh, fake kidnapping. Go figure), so it's no wonder she bailed out. I would have done the same. She hadn't seen her sister for a while if I recall, so it's kind of difficult to just do whatever the hell Dahlia likes. I'm pretty sure she realised that it was wrong, and I'm pretty sure love doesn't mean 'do whatever the other person wants because it's ALWAYS the right thing to do, and if you think otherwise then you obviously don't love them'.
Ugh, Dahlia was behaving like a spoiled child. When she was given an avenue of escape, she abused it, and used everyone else in the equation as pawns to cover herself up. As if that's justifiable in the slightest. There's no saying that she didn't pressure Valerie into shooting Fawles, after all.
Even if people did find out about Dahlia's escape, she could be well out of the country by then, under a new identity. Or she could just have lived with Iris and Bikini. The fake kidnapping might well be exposed, but then it wouldn't matter because Dahlia would no longer be in the Hawthorne family anyway, and legally they won't be able to lay a finger on her, and her dad wouldn't even care to anyway. Not to mention Valerie would have taken the fall for it, seeing as she wanted to get her sister out of the Hawthorne household and start a new life. There are many ways this could have worked out without resorting to what she did.
Eh, I don't know. I used to think she was tragic, but I can't help but feel she was hard to sympathise with.
Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
Call me Ishmael.
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Spoiler: JFA case 3
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Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
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Not that the kidnapping plan was okay, of course, just saying that simply running off wasn't really an option.
Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
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All hail Dahlia, godess of death chains.
Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
...Jolly!
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So I think that one should either feel a bit sorry for every villain because of their problems, or not feel sorry at all for any of them. That's one's personal decision.
"Like a gem, polished to a gleam through trials... and errors. It is this fruit we receive, and pass on, and face in our time. And it is always changing, growing. Nurturing it is our task as human beings."
- Judge's Wisdom, 4-4.
- Judge's Wisdom, 4-4.
Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
That's one of my rules.
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Her father would look pretty bad- his youngest daughter just killed herself, he'd abandoned her twin, and when he raises a stink about a jewel? Valerie could use this against him and pressure him into leaving off. The 'kidnapper' didn't have the jewel, after all, and Dahlia's body was never even found. If they couldn't find the body, they couldn't find the jewel and there was no point chasing down a minor case connected to a sadly closed case. After all, him pressing an issue would make him look like a suspect.
...I don't think it was made all that clear what on Earth the implications were of the truth being made known Franz, that's what confuses me. The father taking them to court and sueing them? Disowning them? Valerie being fired from the police force or jailed? Either way, I'm pretty sure it wasn't worth killing over. People would just have had to know that a sad daughter had tried to steal away from her father and as such, faked her own death and kidnapping. Valerie herself would have attested to that. She would expose that her father ditched Iris, and the truth would be out. Fawles would be acquitted, Valerie take whatever charges against her and have Dahlia live with her next of kin if she were to go to jail, i.e Iris.
Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
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Jacks wrote:
It was well known bodies that wound up in Eagle River were lost, and that usually applies to anything that falls too, namely the diamond in the backpack, right? Valerie could simply have made out that Dahlia had committed suicide. She would still be able to change her identity, emancipate her etc. and get her out of the country.
Her father would look pretty bad- his youngest daughter just killed herself, he'd abandoned her twin, and when he raises a stink about a jewel? Valerie could use this against him and pressure him into leaving off. The 'kidnapper' didn't have the jewel, after all, and Dahlia's body was never even found. If they couldn't find the body, they couldn't find the jewel and there was no point chasing down a minor case connected to a sadly closed case. After all, him pressing an issue would make him look like a suspect.
...I don't think it was made all that clear what on Earth the implications were of the truth being made known Franz, that's what confuses me. The father taking them to court and sueing them? Disowning them? Valerie being fired from the police force or jailed? Either way, I'm pretty sure it wasn't worth killing over. People would just have had to know that a sad daughter had tried to steal away from her father and as such, faked her own death and kidnapping. Valerie herself would have attested to that. She would expose that her father ditched Iris, and the truth would be out. Fawles would be acquitted, Valerie take whatever charges against her and have Dahlia live with her next of kin if she were to go to jail, i.e Iris.
Her father would look pretty bad- his youngest daughter just killed herself, he'd abandoned her twin, and when he raises a stink about a jewel? Valerie could use this against him and pressure him into leaving off. The 'kidnapper' didn't have the jewel, after all, and Dahlia's body was never even found. If they couldn't find the body, they couldn't find the jewel and there was no point chasing down a minor case connected to a sadly closed case. After all, him pressing an issue would make him look like a suspect.
...I don't think it was made all that clear what on Earth the implications were of the truth being made known Franz, that's what confuses me. The father taking them to court and sueing them? Disowning them? Valerie being fired from the police force or jailed? Either way, I'm pretty sure it wasn't worth killing over. People would just have had to know that a sad daughter had tried to steal away from her father and as such, faked her own death and kidnapping. Valerie herself would have attested to that. She would expose that her father ditched Iris, and the truth would be out. Fawles would be acquitted, Valerie take whatever charges against her and have Dahlia live with her next of kin if she were to go to jail, i.e Iris.
...we don't get many GOOD fathers in GS,
1) zak- ditched his daughter
2) Magnifi- took his daughter away from her family
3)Drew- made his daughter forge things
4)Morgans husband- ...nuff said
Sig.
Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
Shipper on the loose.
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;______;
Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
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MirrorX14 wrote:
Man, you people all make good points. Except... I have a pretty skewed sympathy factor. I'm going to post for the sake of one who has been only briefly mentioned:
Matt. Engarde.
I know he's a sick bastard who killed over a stupid competition. I know he cares about nobody and would lie his pretty half-face off to prove he was right. I want to argue in the most rigged, biased, fangirlish view.
Thanks for listening...
Matt. Engarde.
I know he's a sick bastard who killed over a stupid competition. I know he cares about nobody and would lie his pretty half-face off to prove he was right. I want to argue in the most rigged, biased, fangirlish view.
Spoiler: Rant, Part One
Spoiler: 3 Points - Everyone Hates Matt
Spoiler: Rivalry
Spoiler: Rant, Part Two
Spoiler: Not In Phoenix's Boards!
Thanks for listening...
Ummm...What she said. Glad I'm not the only one with a twisted view of what a tragic villian is...
Also someone else mentioned it too but, the way I see it, any of the villians can be considered to have their own personal tragedies. It all depends really on how you look at it. Of course, some villians are much more tragic than others (Godot for example).
Also, a few there are a few things I want to add to the Matt arguement.
Spoiler:
And that's all I got for now. I might add more later when I replay 2-4.
Anyways, thanks for listening/reading
Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
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Spoiler: PW: T&T
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Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
Gumshoe's #1 Fan
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Spoiler: AA2 and 3
I HAVE CHORTLES!
Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
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Spoiler:
~~~Cassandra~~~ but you can call me Cassie!
Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
Don't worry, I don't bite... hard...
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dotsdfe wrote:
...The most tragic villain in the series?
Spoiler: Extra tag just in case
I actually agree with you 100%!
Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
Eureka!
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Spoiler:
Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
The Attorney with a Chocolate Centre.
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Exactly WHY do so many people think that Acro is a tragic character?!?!
...
Well, actully thats not true, I guess he lost his brother and the use of his legs and everything like that but that still doesn't excuse what he did but he is kind of.......
ANYWAY! My point is, what happened to Bat was a horrible accident. Regina had no intention whatsoever of harming Bat. The very concept of harming someone couldn't even appear in her mind. Acro understands this. He admits that it was just a pure accident. It was a prank that went horribly wrong.
So why does he then try to murder and 16 year old girl on the basis that she was making him angry because she didn't understand what had happened fully?
Did he never think just to tell her the truth of what happened? Have a talk with the ringmaster and get her to understand the effects? No? Did his mind simply just jump RIGHT to murder?
The reason she didn't understand what happened to Bat was because no one had ever told her what happens after death in detail. Acro never mentioned that he tried to explain to her, so I can just assume he decided to kill her on a psychotic whim.
Also, the ringmaster saved Acro and Bat as children. How did Acro plan to repay this kindness after his legs were gone and his brother was in hospital? By killing his beloved daughter. This does not equal a tragic character.
Also, Ron? You aren't tragic. You stole that data by your own choice. But I won't say anything, because you're just too damn adorable!
Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
Am I Wright. Yea I'm Wright
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Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
My childhood right here
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God some people need to learn how to use spoiler tags to save space. God. Ot :D
Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
Captain Hair!
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Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
My childhood right here
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Ace Spartan wrote:
:godot: 
Hey, guess what has two thumbs and has one person to trump all this? ME.
Spoiler:
Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
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It's a tie between Godot and Dahlia
As for normal characters:
Franzy anyone?
Spoiler: Saving Space
So yeah. In order of characters, this is most tragic:
1.Godot
2.Franny
3.Dahlia
"Having a place to go — is a home. Having someone to love — is a family. Having both — is a blessing."
Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
Et tu, Brute?
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Hands down the character who has suffered the most. He was a villain in the first game, and the Antihero of the entire series.Spoiler:
Then...he was murdered in horrifying circumstances (earthquake, being stuck in a claustrophobic, oxygen-depleting pitch black elevator with what appeared to be a madman 
, remnants of his once cold and ruthless personality still remain. 
Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
My childhood right here
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Elegant Brute wrote:
Edgeworth Hands down the character who has suffered the most. He was a villain in the first game, and the Antihero of the entire series.
Hands down the character who has suffered the most. He was a villain in the first game, and the Antihero of the entire series.Spoiler:
That makes so much sense, it makes my soul weep (in a good way). I have just one thing to say.
Spoiler: OBJECTION!
Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
Where are Mr. Trite and Herr Forehead?
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Godot. no explanation needed
Last edited by Tenderlender on Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
Dracarys!
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Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
Et tu, Brute?
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Ropfa wrote:
For me, it would have to be Acro, Valant, Mimi, Dahlia, and Godot. I'm kind of surprised at seeing people post Dee. I had a hard time feeling any sympathy for her, considering that she was a mob boss, after all, and no doubt had committed numerous crimes in the past.
Damnit- I lost The Game.
Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
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... I actually didn't think she was sympathetic at all.The murder she committed was elaborately premeditated, and for a selfish reason -- not to mention that she was fully willing to frame an innocent teenage girl for her crime.
I realize that it must have been painful for her to have lost a sister, and that her life as "Ini" must have been miserable -- but, even though the facial reconstruction was not her own choice, it was her own choice to take advantage of it and keep up that act for so long... because, through that act, she could conveniently and effectively avoid facing any punishment for her crime of killing 14 patients at Grey's clinic.
I obviously don't believe that she killed those patients on purpose. But I also don't believe that
drugged her. I think Grey and Mimi were in an unhealthy, tension-filled, antagonistic boss/worker relationship that brought out the worst in each other, but neither was the kind of person (as of then) who would have done something so truly evil. The medication mixup was probably just a simple mistake caused by 
's stress and tiredness from work -- but it was a deadly mistake, a mistake for which she should have made amends from the start, rather than letting her cover-up snowball out of control. It was her own paranoia (mixed with a bit of denial and a whole lot of not wanting to take responsibility for her negligence) that likely made her blame Grey. (...Or at least confirm the blame on Grey that the media had begun to spread, as the point was made on this thread before. I'm sure the media would have drawn that conclusion not from any evidence but from the sheer dramatic potential of the situation, which they knew the public would eat up, and of which I'm sure that Mimi would have been more than keen to convince herself.). If she was truly a victim in the situation, I don't think she would have been so desperate to keep her involvement a secret. However, Mimi was ashamed of what she did and grew to rely so much on her cover-up that she resorted to concealing her accidental murders with a deliberate murder -- and that's when she passes the point of forgiveness.In my view, Mimi Miney was a coward who ran away from her problems and was unwilling to deal with the consequences of her mistakes before it was too late. She was a great character and a great villain, but not one I feel sorry for.
---
Instead, my obvious vote for "most tragic villain" has to go to Godot.
He didn't set out to kill anyone. He set out to defend the family of the woman he loved. It was only through an unfortunate twist of events that he was forced to commit a murder.
Of course, it was his own fault that the situation was so dangerous in the first place -- and that danger was entirely preventable: if he had only sucked up his stubborn pride and his unreasonable contempt and let Phoenix (and others who could have been able to help) in on Morgan's plan. That was his mistake. A tragic mistake.
...But, unlike Mimi, he was willing to face the consequences of his mistakes like a man. In court, he led Phoenix to the truth, and then accepted his fate.
For an added sense of tragedy, that fate was most likely not just incarceration but death. Not a death penalty -- just the death that he had been prolonging since his poisoning. The end of his struggle against his own irreparably destroyed body. The final rest of Diego Armando.
Oh Godot, why are you so epic!?!?!
Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
Dracarys!
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Elegant Brute wrote:
Ropfa wrote:
For me, it would have to be Acro, Valant, Mimi, Dahlia, and Godot. I'm kind of surprised at seeing people post Dee. I had a hard time feeling any sympathy for her, considering that she was a mob boss, after all, and no doubt had committed numerous crimes in the past.
Damnit- I lost The Game.
Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
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Asa Turney wrote:
...But, unlike Mimi, he was willing to face the consequences of his mistakes like a man. In court, he led Phoenix to the truth, and then accepted his fate.
Like hell he did. Even after getting his revenge on Dahlia by sacrificing the rest of the Feys, Godot let his little charade continue until Phoenix backed him into a corner with no way out. If he was a real man and wanted to face the consequences, he would have, you know, CONFESSED instead of letting the suspicion rest on Iris, Maya, Pearl, whomever, after they'd already suffered more than enough.
Everything Godot did was for his own ego, and I don't consider crying over it after you're already caught an especially repentant attitude.
And I think it's kind of hypocritical that you condemn Mimi for trying to make Maya take the blame for her crime when Godot did the same thing to Iris.
Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
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What do a Walrus and Tupperware have in common?
They both like a tight seal.
You don't need a reason to help people. -Zidane Tribal
Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
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Franzise Deauxnim wrote:
And I think it's kind of hypocritical that you condemn Mimi for trying to make Maya take the blame for her crime when Godot did the same thing to Iris.
Well, that's because I don't think Godot actually ever intended to let Iris take the fall. He knew in the back of his mind, the whole time, that he was going to be declared guilty in the end. He couldn't just admit it himself
I concede that, because of these ulterior motives (challenging Phoenix -- as well as complicating the entire situation for others in the process of seeking personal redemption), he still acted quite selfishly. Rereading the scripts, I do see the parallels between Mimi and Godot that, in my bias, I tweaked more favorably for Godot: Godot did essentially what Mimi did -- (at least at first...in the case of Mia's death) he ran from his problems.
I also admit that you're right that his motives were quite a bit more egotistic I made them out to be: He outright confesses that he was probably acting for his own sake rather than for Maya's... but, even he is not completely sure. He goes around in circles with qualifications like "I think" and "I suppose" and "Was it for Maya? Was it for revenge? I don't know. I don't know anything." He was confused about himself the whole time. He was figuratively as well as literally blinded. I think that, while he was doing what he did, even if he may have known deep in his heart that it was wrong, he had himself convinced that he was doing it for the right reasons. (On the other hand, Mimi was fully psychologically aware of why she was doing it and who she was hurting in the process.)
Most importantly, Godot admits his faults with regret:
Godot, Case 3-5, wrote:
That's why I let you walk right into a situation that I knew was dangerous. Forgive me...
Meanwhile: Mimi, Case 2-2, wrote:
That quack doctor... He got what he deserved in the end. And I was so close to finally ditching "Mimi" too.
You argued that Godot's crying after he was caught wasn't a convincing show of repentance...But Mimi didn't cry until after she was caught, either.
And while she was crying, that's what she was saying.She never apologizes, and never expresses that she was wrong -- she only justifies what she did by explaining why she did it.
Mimi cried because her plans failed.
Godot "cried" because his plans succeeded.
I certainly don't disagree that Godot is a villain. (That's what villains do: not confess until they're cornered.)
I just hold that he's a "tragic" villain, and I think he's more tragic than Mimi, because, unlike Mimi, he appears to genuinely regret what he did.
Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
Like apple and cinnamon. ~
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@ Asa Turney: Wasn't it said that Iris agreed to take the fall?
Also... If I was Mimi, I wouldn't regret killing someone who made my life a living hell. I know the malpractice thing is never really confirmed, but it's apparent that Mimi believes it, so that justified what she did in her own mind.
As for Godot, I think he regrets what he did because it was Mia's mother that he killed. I don't think he did it for Maya or even Mia, directly. I think he wanted revenge on Dahlia, in some way... Maybe. Like the way Mia tells her she will forever be a "loser."
Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
Woo! Woo! Woo!
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He lost his father when he was only a child, his father was killed right before him, that incident left him severely scarred, only to find out that Manfred Von Karma killed his father for messing up his perfect win record. you can feel the emotions running through Edgeworth as he found all this out. I felt happy when he found all that out and was able to put his father's killer to justice, but still, i can't help but feel for him, he has it hard.
Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
Gettin' Old!
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Because he actually shed great manly tears in court. Tears = Greater sadness.
And Acro cried more tears in court than Godot.
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Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
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Pierre wrote:
Acro.
Because he actually shed great manly tears in court. Tears = Greater sadness.
And Acro cried more tears in court than Godot.
Because he actually shed great manly tears in court. Tears = Greater sadness.
And Acro cried more tears in court than Godot.
But wasn´t the one manly bloody tear enough for you, to explain the most epic tear of all times?
To me it was clearly Godot.
He lost his former life as a lawyer, lost his love and killed the mother of his former love in order to protect her sister.
Kind of a shitty situation.
Acro was just a foolish idiot, imo. (Hands down) Afterall, he killed with the pure intent to kill someone, which is bad enough for me, so say: "I am glad he was sent to prison."
"The hammer that strikes too fast has no time to aim."
Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
Gettin' Old!
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Coffee Prosecutor wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Acro.
Because he actually shed great manly tears in court. Tears = Greater sadness.
And Acro cried more tears in court than Godot.
Because he actually shed great manly tears in court. Tears = Greater sadness.
And Acro cried more tears in court than Godot.
But wasn´t the one manly bloody tear enough for you, to explain the most epic tear of all times?
To me it was clearly Godot.
He lost his former life as a lawyer, lost his love and killed the mother of his former love in order to protect her sister.
Kind of a shitty situation.
Acro was just a foolish idiot, imo. (Hands down) Afterall, he killed with the pure intent to kill someone, which is bad enough for me, so say: "I am glad he was sent to prison."
Nope in fact bloody tears just sounds emo when you say it like that. Plus I kinda thought the message for Godot's killing is sure he did it and it did protect Maya but he did it primarily for his own selfish desire for revenge.
Made by Chesu+Zombee
You thought you could be safe in your courts, with your laws and attorneys to protect you. In this world only I am law, my word is fact, my power is absolute.
Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
Too bad. Waluigi Time.
Gender: None specified
Location: 667 Dark Avenue
Rank: Medium-in-training
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:37 pm
Posts: 419
Spoiler: 3-2
And to add another,
Spoiler: 4-2
And one more for good luck, the stepladders! Ladder army, attack!
Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
Gender: None specified
Rank: Suspect
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:28 am
Posts: 38
Now, I'd like to start by saying I can't really see Dee as sympathetic, mainly because she didn't become part of the mob by accident. She's a bad woman, no matter how you slice it.
Anyway, this is a debatable point, villain-wise, but more sympathetic (to me) than Godot, Ron, and around neck-and-neck with Acro is another character that we had to force to the witness stand, go through a massive battle of wits with, and wring a confession out of, as if he were the true villain of...well, any other case.
He put us through a lot of hassle...and they shoot you for that in Texas.
My god, the guy finally gets all he ever wanted - he's a detective, he gets to work on a case with the brother he admired and was so incredibly close to, life is good. And then it all gets flipped on its head. His brother is murdered by the very man he was investigating. His work in sending that man away is tossed aside in favor of lies and fakes, he suddenly finds himself demoted to patrolman without reason. In the pursuit of the truth, he still works on the case in secret, and then, teo years later, as he was ready to take the evidence, he has to assault a cop, and finds the evidence - the keys to the case that he spent two years working so hard on to avenge his brother - taken away from him. Next thing he knows, his colleague in the endeavor is dead, and what closure does he finally get? It was his boss that killed them both. Not just his boss, mind you, but the boss that faked the evidence so long ago.
THAT is tragic.
Re: Who do you think is....(ENORMOUS SERIES SPOILERS)
Gender: None specified
Rank: Decisive Witness
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:34 am
Posts: 286
But I would chose Godot, with Yanni Yogi being close.
Spoiler: AAI2-5
Nevertheless, I can't help but feel a bit sorry for Manfred von Karma. Just after his precious perfect record is destroyed, he gets shot in the shoulder for absolutely no reason. I wonder if he would have still killed Gregory if he hadn't been shot.
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