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Thoughts on AAI2 (SPOILERS)Topic%20Title
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Seeing as how the English patch for Ace Attorney Investigations Miles Edgeworth Prosecutor's Path (HOLY CRAP LONG NAME) just came out, I felt like starting up a thread for those who has beaten the first two cases already and talk about how much they liked it. I'll start.

Case 1: Turnabout Target
While it was good, it felt like it was too complicated and too long to be the first case of an ace attorney game. It does however set up a good overall mystery throughout the game, which I really like. Plus, I loved using Chess Logic for the first time. Really loving it.

Case 2: The Imprisoned Turnabout
Has the same problem the first case does. It lays down way too much on the table and is too complicated to be just the second case. But with that being said, they did introduce the antagonist (who is an awesome antagonist by the way) and Raymond Shields = AWESOME. It was a pretty good mystery, but I think that this should have been saved for later in the game. I also like the risks that Edgeworth takes in this case, just going to show how awesome he truly is. Also, is it bad that I instantly knew who the killer was at the beginning of case, and I was right the whole time?
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Actually the first case doesn't set up the foundation for the overarching plot, but it rather sets up certain characters/plot-devices/Knightley that bring Edgeworth and the crew in under the circumstances that introduces the actual plot.

I think it's true the first case isn't a good "first case" because it's not newcomer-friendly, but having played so many Ace Attorneys I liked that we just got to jump straight into it, and I loved that we for once, didn't see who was the killer immediately. Hard to believe they ended up making Case 1 in GS5 just as long and then start off by showing the culprit for you :/

I'm midway into case 2, and so far I like it... but I'm a little tired of the "unusual settings" crap. I really wish we could just at some point, return to the normal world of Ace Attorney that was present in Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney. It's not that I don't buy the crap with animals being pets for prisoners or prisoners getting to do side-activities, but I like the prison setting and I would've liked the case so much more if it was just a normal, dark and eerie prison with no goofyness to it.

In the first Ace Attorney I loved exploring public areas of the city, and just feel that you were a somewhat normal Attorney living in a somewhat believable world. The franchise has evolved so much, and I just miss its roots by this point.

But so far GK2 is a good bit better than AAI. I liked that game until midway into case 3, and then it got real tedious. Even case 4 didn't seem as appealing by the end as when it started... and case 5... oh god, what a convoluted and devoid-of-any-tension-kinda case. It's the worst case ever so I hope by the time the full translation-patch is out for GK2 that we're not gonna stumble into a final case that's just as tedious and overly long. I think there's a lot of room to improve for the writer and hopefully he got better with GS5, or else I'm gonna dislke that game a good bit. :yuusaku:

EDIT: Dude, Ray Shields is not an antagonist. He's not even the main rival.
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^ Actually, the only thing really "goofy" about the prison setting is Regina.

If the first two cases are "too complicated", then the next cases will be doozies, especially the last one. That isn't to say that they share the same issues, though.

Well, while I'm still here, I suppose I'll throw in more non-spoiler comments... Big improvement since the first game in multiple aspects: more game play fluidity, smoother graphics and animations, more intensive plot progression, greater diversity of case and character designs, and more intriguing mysteries, in a nutshell. The difficulty level has been increased with the introduction of logic chess, but whether that means it'd be more challenging overall is at question.
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The game is an improvement from its predecessor, that's for sure. The logic chess is a nice new feature (even if Kay is shocked everytime Edgeworth says he is 'going to use it', which makes it sound like some kind of superpower), they ease up on the nationality focus and some mysteries are more intriguing than the ones in Ace Attorney Investigations.

However, in my opinion, the game is still far too bland and mediocre. The cast is, once again, incredibly forgettable and sometimes straight up boring. Courtney and Sebastian are without a doubt some of the most boring larger support characters in the entire franchise. So far the spin-off series has introduced one likeable character per game (Lang, Naitō), which is not exactly an impressive feat.

But not only is the new cast bland, they also rely far too much on cameos - a mistake I think they made in the previous game, too. And I should also probably point out that Kay is still just there, her reason for hanging around Edgeworth this time is even more mysterious as she's not affected by the plot in any way.

And then there are the cases, which fail to impress me in any significant way. I liked the first one, and (at least the beginning of) case four is probably my favorite in the spin-off series, but that's it. The plot twists are usually far too easy to spot and fail to give you the 'what-the-hell' kind of feeling.

Overall it feels like the writers of the spin-off series try so hard to be a bit edgier (no pun intended), cooler and darker than the main series, but they ultimately fail to deliver. This series will only reach the level of the Ace Attorney franchise when the characters are more memorable and have a sense of purpose, when they stop having all these pointless cameos and when they actually manage to write something a tad more...exciting.

These are just my opinions, and I want to say I don't hate the game by any means, and I really want to like it, but I just don't find it interesting. I hope they did a better job with Dual Destinies and that they'll learn from their mistakes if they ever make a Gyakuten Kenji 3.
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Am I the only one who doesn't mind seeing complex plotlines in the first few cases? I actually prefer that to throwing a Sahwit-esque character on the stand for 2-3 testimonies and having it all over within ten minutes.


Last edited by Ropfa on Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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If i were a newcomer i'd hate a case 1 like those of this game and Apollo Justice too. I care about game design more than what i think about whether the content suits my preferance, amd by now I do prefer the complex cases, being a hardcore fan and all that. It's a big mistake to throw so much in the player's face as an introduction imo.

And I agree about everything Thane said and especially the part with the writer trying to make it "edgier" issomething I've noticed many times myself. I think it's because there's a serious disconnect between when the player is genuinely shocked, and when Edgworth appears to be. There are too many times where a contrived revelation makes Edgeworth overreact and it doesn't make a lasting impression on you.
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linkenski wrote:
If i were a newcomer i'd hate a case 1 like those of this game and Apollo Justice too.


I don't know about that. I know lots of people whose first game was AJ and they loved it. 4-1 is considered to be the best case in that game by many people. As long as the contradictions aren't too hard right off the bat, the complexity of the plot shouldn't be an issue.
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Thane wrote:
But not only is the new cast bland, they also rely far too much on cameos - a mistake I think they made in the previous game, too. And I should also probably point out that Kay is still just there, her reason for hanging around Edgeworth this time is even more mysterious as she's not affected by the plot in any way.

I agree with this one, a bit. Less cameos would be nice, definitely. However, I do think they integrated the cameos well, though. Regina is running a circus, Larry draws something completely crazy that he actually witnessed, Lotta takes a photo... Yeah, you could replace them with original characters, but then you'd just end up with carbon copies of the original characters. And it's true Kay's reasons for hanging around are... tenuous at best, but she does get tied in later, plus mysteries are built upon contrivance, so a certain level is acceptable.

However, cast-wise, I think GK2's biggest problem is the size. (I had this complaint in AAI, too, but GK2 just made it worse.) In the GS games, the biggest number of people "on-screen" at any time is 5, during court scenes. And Udgey usually doesn't do too much (he just helps things run smoothly), and your assist is usually there to just give hints and make jokes, rather than make actual contributions, so we're left with the interactions between the attorney and the prosecutor and (usually) witness, which tends to be a strong dynamic, and so we're able to get a lot out of those three. Compare that with GK2, where on screen we usually have... Edgey, THREE assistants (Gummy, Kay, and Shigaraki), TWO rivals (Mikagami and Yumihiko), support cast members (Franzy, Lang, etc), and sometimes 2-3 witnesses. You can only have so many people talking. And as a result, most of the people there stand around just... not doing anything.

Side-note: While I don't really like the cameos, I love the references. (Case 1 breakdown, and 'that room' in case 4.)


Quote:
And then there are the cases, which fail to impress me in any significant way. I liked the first one, and (at least the beginning of) case four is probably my favorite in the spin-off series, but that's it. The plot twists are usually far too easy to spot and fail to give you the 'what-the-hell' kind of feeling.

I really liked the cases, but I agree with you about what the best parts were xD
Also... plot twists in the entire AA franchise tend to be easy to spot.

Ropfa wrote:
Am I the only one who doesn't mind seeing complex plotlines in the first few cases? I actually prefer that to throwing a Sahwit-esque character on the stand for 2-3 testimonies and having it all over within ten minutes.

Yes. This. So much this.

Give me good mysteries from the get-go, rather than some extremely simplistic tutorial case.

Which makes me realize, linkenski, you're sort of being hypocritical here--you say you want simple opening cases, but also don't like it when Edgey overreacts to a simple "revelation." Well... isn't that what the super-simple tutorial cases are full of?
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The thing is a lot of cameos ARE in fact completely irrelevant. I'd appreciate one or two, but Larry didn't HAVE to show up and draw ANOTHER sketch - we've already seen that in Trials and Tribulations. They could've easily just found another way to solve that problem. Not to mention I think sketches are kind of SKETCHY evidence (thank you, thank you I'll be here all night). References are great, however. I'd gladly have more references and less cameos.

Also, don't forget Ema...so make that four assistants. But yeah, I agree, that's a real problem.

I've already explained my take on the cases, so I won't clog up the thread with my negativity. However, case 2-2 is probably right up (down) there with Turnabout Big Top. My God, I almost fell asleep.

I wouldn't call the plot twists in Ace Attorney PREDICTABLE. Sure, you generally expect something to happen, but it's often hard to tell what exactly. Here, however, you can practically say how and when certain characters are going to develop, motives behind a murder, what evidence is misleading and not and the supposed big plot twists have little to no impact.

And I entirely agree with you, Ropfa. I'd appreciate more complex starting cases. If there are only going to be five cases per game, then it's a shame to waste one on something too simple.

I just have to say there's one thing I'll never forgive the writers of Gyakuten Kenji 2 for...

Spoiler:
They turned Manfred von Karma into a WIMP! Everything Edgeworth said made him sweat bullets!

Edgeworth: The sky...is BLUE!

Manfred: IMPOSSIBLE! HOW DID YOU KNOW?!

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Thane wrote:
The thing is a lot of cameos ARE in fact completely irrelevant. I'd appreciate one or two, but Larry didn't HAVE to show up and draw ANOTHER sketch - we've already seen that in Trials and Tribulations. They could've easily just found another way to solve that problem. Not to mention I think sketches are kind of SKETCHY evidence (thank you, thank you I'll be here all night). References are great, however. I'd gladly have more references and less cameos.

Well, Larry drew TWO pictures. And for the second one, the fact that it was a picture (and not a photo) was semi-important, since we didn't know the exact time/order of the stuff he drew. They also set up characters are certain niches--Oldbag witnesses people in costumes, Larry ("Laurice") draws crazy stuff, Lotta takes photos, etc. When we have one character who's obsessed with taking photos, it'd feel kinda silly to introduce a second imo. Also, about the sketches being sketchy evidence, that's partly solved by the fact that it's Larry. If it was some random guy who said "OMG I DREW A PICTURE OF STATUES CRYING BLOOD," it'd be really weird for Edgey to believe him, but since Edgey and Larry are childhood friends and whatever it makes sense for Edgey to trust that Larry actually (thinks he) saw that stuff.

Quote:
Also, don't forget Ema...so make that four assistants. But yeah, I agree, that's a real problem.

I guess, except Ema is in the game for literally one scene :P

Quote:
I've already explained my take on the cases, so I won't clog up the thread with my negativity. However, case 2-2 is probably right up (down) there with Turnabout Big Top. My God, I almost fell asleep.

2-2 was the best case in JFA. Locked rooms! D:

Quote:
I just have to say there's one thing I'll never forgive the writers of Gyakuten Kenji 2 for...

Spoiler:
They turned Manfred von Karma into a WIMP! Everything Edgeworth said made him sweat bullets!

Edgeworth: The sky...is BLUE!

Manfred: IMPOSSIBLE! HOW DID YOU KNOW?!

Hmmm maybe that's because it's still the investigation? Like he doesn't have everything 100% sorted out, so he isn't 100% confident, but once he gets to the trial and everything is completely settled he goes into super-confident mode.

What I won't forgive them for is...
Spoiler: omg GK2 spoilers
-Having the police not find the GIGANTIC HOLE underneath the bed in Naitou-sama's cell
-Having Ou just happen to get caught on film in an exact pose and position that it looks he's going up the stairs in the film lot at the exact same time Simon is practicing without having Simon notice. Like... what?! That's almost as bad as 2-3 in terms of contrivance

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Quote:
Well, Larry drew TWO pictures. And for the second one, the fact that it was a picture (and not a photo) was semi-important, since we didn't know the exact time/order of the stuff he drew. They also set up characters are certain niches--Oldbag witnesses people in costumes, Larry ("Laurice") draws crazy stuff, Lotta takes photos, etc. When we have one character who's obsessed with taking photos, it'd feel kinda silly to introduce a second imo. Also, about the sketches being sketchy evidence, that's partly solved by the fact that it's Larry. If it was some random guy who said "OMG I DREW A PICTURE OF STATUES CRYING BLOOD," it'd be really weird for Edgey to believe him, but since Edgey and Larry are childhood friends and whatever it makes sense for Edgey to trust that Larry actually (thinks he) saw that stuff.


But...they DID introduce a second character just like Lotta! And I would've preferred it if they could've found another way to solve the mystery of the statue instead of a bloody sketch. The day a real court accepts a drawing as evidence is the day I stop eating sweets.

Anyway, I just think most cameos could've been avoided, but if you think they serve a purpose, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

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I guess, except Ema is in the game for literally one scene :P


She actually helps out in Gyakuten Kenji 2, as opposed to that awful cameo in the first game.

Quote:
2-2 was the best case in JFA. Locked rooms! D:


I meant Gyakuten Kenji 2's second case. Justice For All's second case was great, as was its finale.

Quote:
Hmmm maybe that's because it's still the investigation? Like he doesn't have everything 100% sorted out, so he isn't 100% confident, but once he gets to the trial and everything is completely settled he goes into super-confident mode.


Von Karma held it together even when things didn't go his way in court. The ONLY time he showed any kind of emotion beyond his normal cocky, dominant and downright scary self was when Phoenix figured out where the second bullet went (that, and when he didn't get to finish the trail in three minutes).

The fact that he sweated, made several mistakes and acted like a wimp was just...ugh.

Quote:
What I won't forgive them for is...
Spoiler: omg GK2 spoilers
-Having the police not find the GIGANTIC HOLE underneath the bed in Naitou-sama's cell
-Having Ou just happen to get caught on film in an exact pose and position that it looks he's going up the stairs in the film lot at the exact same time Simon is practicing without having Simon notice. Like... what?! That's almost as bad as 2-3 in terms of contrivance


Don't forget
Spoiler:
the prisoner who managed to pose as a prison guard just by putting on the uniform. I mean, he had a pretty distinctive face, so...


On a completely different note, what's up with Bansai's sprites? In particular casually burning up a few pieces of paper?
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Quote:
On a completely different note, what's up with Bansai's sprites? In particular casually burning up a few pieces of paper?

Can't you tell? He looooooves fire.
Spoiler:
And erasing evidence. Generic evil guy design, but his character was well integrated in the 4th and 5th cases.

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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
Quote:
On a completely different note, what's up with Bansai's sprites? In particular casually burning up a few pieces of paper?

Can't you tell? He looooooves fire.
Spoiler:
And erasing evidence. Generic evil guy design, but his character was well integrated in the 4th and 5th cases.


Oh I know, I figured it might be symbolic but I mean...it just feels so weird. Putting out fire with the water in his goggles was amazing the first time I saw it though.
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Symbolic? If you're looking for a design for a villain that plays with dangerous things, fire is a good place to start. :P

That said, Bansai's goggle and suit outfit reminds me of the style that Japanese pilots wore during WWII. Coincidentally, or not, kamikaze pilots would have honoring ceremonies before they take flight, in which they usually say "Banzai" thrice and enjoy one last cup of good wine. (I'm no expert on this subject. If I'm being inaccurate here, someone tell me.) And to top it off,
Spoiler:
His breakdown consists of him burning himself up. Of course, since it'd be a moot point for the villain to kill himself before his trial, he's left bald and smoky.

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Thane wrote:
But...they DID introduce a second character just like Lotta! And I would've preferred it if they could've found another way to solve the mystery of the statue instead of a bloody sketch. The day a real court accepts a drawing as evidence is the day I stop eating sweets.

Hayami=recordings
Lotta=photographs
There's a difference! ^^"

And GK2 is neither real nor in court so... :P

Quote:
Anyway, I just think most cameos could've been avoided, but if you think they serve a purpose, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Well, yeah, if they didn't want cameos I'm sure they could've found some way to rework the case to not have them, but you'd need to actually rework the case; merely swapping out the character would result in the new character being very "...Aren't they just like [previous character]? :yuusaku: "
...The exception to this is Sahwit. He could probably be replaced with an original character without much effort. (But is giving up Edgey getting hit in the face with a toupee worth it?)

Quote:
Quote:
2-2 was the best case in JFA. Locked rooms! D:


I meant Gyakuten Kenji 2's second case. Justice For All's second case was great, as was its finale.

Oh. I think GK2-2 is the weakest case in the game, but there are still some things about it I really like.
Also 2-4 is my most-hated game in the franchise so let's not get into that

Quote:
Quote:
Hmmm maybe that's because it's still the investigation? Like he doesn't have everything 100% sorted out, so he isn't 100% confident, but once he gets to the trial and everything is completely settled he goes into super-confident mode.


Von Karma held it together even when things didn't go his way in court. The ONLY time he showed any kind of emotion beyond his normal cocky, dominant and downright scary self was when Phoenix figured out where the second bullet went (that, and when he didn't get to finish the trail in three minutes).

Well, he could have already prepared for all that stuff, and so he wasn't shaken up when it happened, whereas in this investigation things were going crazy and he didn't know and.... whatever, I don't know either *shrug*

Quote:
Don't forget
Spoiler:
the prisoner who managed to pose as a prison guard just by putting on the uniform. I mean, he had a pretty distinctive face, so...

obviously, the hat in the prison guard outfit is OP
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Thane wrote:
Spoiler:
They turned Manfred von Karma into a WIMP! Everything Edgeworth said made him sweat bullets!

Edgeworth: The sky...is BLUE!

Manfred: IMPOSSIBLE! HOW DID YOU KNOW?!
Oh, don't mind, he had only 24 years of experience back then :jake:
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Bad Player wrote:
Which makes me realize, linkenski, you're sort of being hypocritical here--you say you want simple opening cases, but also don't like it when Edgey overreacts to a simple "revelation." Well... isn't that what the super-simple tutorial cases are full of?


Well I know that seems contradicting. But I don't mind it in the intro cases, and like I said, I do enjoy these complex cases from the getgo being a long-time fan by now, but I think game-design wise it's a serious misstep... and I'm biased since I love case 1-1 because it's hilarious.

EDIT: I reread my own post again. No i'm kinda wording it wrong. The thing about edgeworth overreacting was not about that. And I never said a "simple" revelation. But anyhow it was a bad example. I was trying to find an example of how the GK games often try to make more out of its twists/revelations than they are, which makes for a disconnect in what the player thinks and how the characters react. There are just a lot of moments where it gets really melodramatic.

I know what you're thinking, that "didn't the older games have that as well?", and yeah, that's kinda true... but there's something about the flavor GK delivers these kinds of situations in that just seems underwhelming imo, or come off as more forced than they used to... I'm grasping but I'm not just being a hypocrite. There's something about GK that just feels like it's trying to be edgier and darker, where in the old GS games, the writer mostly knew when to put in comic reliefs so it didn't become corny.

Bad Player wrote:
Thane wrote:
But not only is the new cast bland, they also rely far too much on cameos - a mistake I think they made in the previous game, too. And I should also probably point out that Kay is still just there, her reason for hanging around Edgeworth this time is even more mysterious as she's not affected by the plot in any way.

I agree with this one, a bit. Less cameos would be nice, definitely. However, I do think they integrated the cameos well, though. Regina is running a circus, Larry draws something completely crazy that he actually witnessed, Lotta takes a photo... Yeah, you could replace them with original characters, but then you'd just end up with carbon copies of the original characters.

I have a better solution. Don't make scenarios that require such cameos in the first place. Reading it as you list them, it seems even more obvious that they must've though "Can't we have a circus as a distraction in the case? Oh yeah, then we can use Regina" or "How about we add another assassin scapegoat to make it more complex? Oh we can add Shelly De Killer"

I think the problem more than anything is that the GK series rely too heavily on their cameos... that said, Eshiro even called the series a sort of "Fiesta" game where cameos were part of the concept or something. I still think they would benefit greatly without them. It makes things too scattered and unfocused imo.
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Huh? I never had trouble with that, actually. ^^;
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I also feel I can forgive it, but as Bad Player put it, it gets too much when it starts character-bloating where there are 8 or more characters in the same scene. At that point you sort of want to sort some of the characters out, because it seems like the floodgates were just open for the writer and he didn't try to make it compact. It just feels too unfocused.

BP, how can someone not like 2-4!? Adrian Andrews is a great character, enough to make it interesting and thematically the case was incredibly strong IMO
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linkenski wrote:
BP, how can someone not like 2-4!? Adrian Andrews is a great character, enough to make it interesting and thematically the case was incredibly strong IMO

Because the terrible terrible 'foreshadowing' gave away all the twists in the first half hour so the mystery component was ruined for me, and I knew from the T&T boxart that Maya would be fine so the suspense component was ruined for me, and when you have neither mystery nor suspense in a GS you have.... nothing
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...There is still bad ending.
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I've actually been really enjoying watching dowolf's translated playthrough of AAI2 on YouTube. I can understand why some people might not want to "watch" an Ace Attorney game, though. (I would certainly prefer to play it, but I was too impatient to wait for the patch, heh.)

I've watched through to the beginning of Case 5 and, as some others have noted, it's an obvious step up in quality from AAI. Don't get me wrong, I had a lot of fun with AAI when I was first playing through it, but the more I look back on it, the more problems I see. I don't think it's a bad game by any means - I thought the overarching theme of the game was pretty decent, but the individual cases, taken on their own, seemed to lack something. AAI2's individual cases are much stronger in comparison, and I just find it much more appealing than the original in terms of theme and mystery.
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Sligneris wrote:
...There is still bad ending.

Canonically, the bad ending never happen.

linkenski wrote:
"How about we add another assassin scapegoat to make it more complex? Oh we can add Shelly De Killer"

Technically, that's what happened with Sirhan Dogen, but there's more to him and De Killer than what's shown up to the 2nd case.
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Bad Player wrote:
linkenski wrote:
BP, how can someone not like 2-4!? Adrian Andrews is a great character, enough to make it interesting and thematically the case was incredibly strong IMO

Because the terrible terrible 'foreshadowing' gave away all the twists in the first half hour so the mystery component was ruined for me, and I knew from the T&T boxart that Maya would be fine so the suspense component was ruined for me, and when you have neither mystery nor suspense in a GS you have.... nothing

I didn't ever think during that case that Maya would actually die though, and for me the mystery in it was whether Matt Engarde was actually guilty of something or not and Adrian's backstory. It was just the overall theme of "what it means to be a lawyer" that I really appreciated. It was a great way to put some more meaning into JFA since up to 2-4 the game basically had no plot. My tresure might just be your kind of garbage in this case though :P But I consider 2-4 to be in the top 5 of all cases

Strike-discussing ftw :P

I haven't even finished case 2 yet, because when I do, I'm not sure what to do next while I hype Dual Destinies :P
I guess I'll reserve judgement until the day when I've beaten the entire game, but so far I still fail to see how anyone can think this is better than any of the main GS games, at least story-wise... but again, it's really more the flavor than anything that I don't like.
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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
Sligneris wrote:
...There is still bad ending.

Canonically, the bad ending never happen.

But if you fail to reach the good ending, the bad one does happen.
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linkenski wrote:
I didn't ever think during that case that Maya would actually die though, and for me the mystery in it was whether Matt Engarde was actually guilty of something or not and Adrian's backstory. It was just the overall theme of "what it means to be a lawyer" that I really appreciated. It was a great way to put some more meaning into JFA since up to 2-4 the game basically had no plot. My tresure might just be your kind of garbage in this case though :P But I consider 2-4 to be in the top 5 of all cases

Strike-discussing ftw :P

I haven't even finished case 2 yet, because when I do, I'm not sure what to do next while I hype Dual Destinies :P
I guess I'll reserve judgement until the day when I've beaten the entire game, but so far I still fail to see how anyone can think this is better than any of the main GS games, at least story-wise... but again, it's really more the flavor than anything that I don't like.

Like I said, terrible terrible foreshadowing. I knew Engarde was guilty and I knew the basic gist of Adrian's backstory by the end of the first half hour of the case. And a moral plot isn't bad, but I want an actual plot.


Linkenski you contradicted yourself againnnnnnn
Also I like mysteries, especially complex/convoluted ones. So yeah, that's probably why I like GK2. (It does that better than any other game, except perhaps GS5.)


Also, pre-emptive response: Putting a "plot" in a single case does not give the entire "game" a plot.
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Ugh, well. Matt was obviously a guilty party. I mean, the guy by the name de killer wants us to protect him. TOTALLY NOT SUSPICIOUS.

Although, at the start I thought there was a way to bypass magatama detection or something.
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I'm gonna continue this strike commentary :P
Either i'm wording myself wrong or you're not getting my point BP. I'm not just contradicting myself. I like the moral plot as you call it and yeah it was pretty obvious to guess Matt Engarde was guilty, but what I like is the conflict wright has about whether he wants Engarde to be convicted for his crime or not. It was a very important step in wright's character arc imo. And you're not saying you'd rather 2-4 had no plot rendering JFA completely meaningless are you? Mysteries are great but I'd argue the culprits are obvious in the first half, of half the cases that exist in Ace Attorney. To me message is the most important aspect of storytelling. If a story only has mysteries tied into complex plots and nothing more then it can't get any worse imo. That's choosing complexity over substance.

Did it ever strike you (no pun intended) that they might've deliberately chosen to reveal all of the mystery early on in 2-4 so they could better set up the actual moral plot?


And IMO, you can have a good story without any overarching plot as long as it's in a videogame, the reason being some games are more than 30 hours long, not to mention Ace Attorney is told in episodic format. In JFA they just ended up making each case its own story. They did try to trick you into thinking there was an overarching plot with the intro nightmare of 2-1 and it returning in 2-4 and that didn't work.

Oh and speaking of message, that's one thing I actually do like about GK2 so far. I love they're exploring the theme of corruption and even though they can be annoying, I like how they characterize the representatives of the corruption, Debeste and Justine, as being so silly. It's anti-subtle and I always liked that in Ace Attorney.
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Thane wrote:
However, in my opinion, the game is still far too bland and mediocre. The cast is, once again, incredibly forgettable and sometimes straight up boring. Courtney and Sebastian are without a doubt some of the most boring larger support characters in the entire franchise.

This is just a snip from the whole thing, but I'd just like to say that pretty much everything you said in that post... is how I felt about the first AAI. Almost every word. And while I suppose I can see some of your complaints with GK2, this one I quoted is... bizarre, to me. If nothing else, "boring" is an odd word choice. Yumihiko and Mikagami are two of my favorite characters in the series, and it's fairly inarguable that they're two of the most well-developed... and they both have actual arcs, which is unusual for characters who aren't series mainstays.

...anywhoooo, I've been watching dowolf's playthrough and really loving it. The crimes are a tad overly convoluted and it has too many series cameos (which I would say was a worse problem in the prior game), but on the whole I've found it pretty thoroughly excellent.
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linkenski wrote:
I'm gonna continue this strike commentary :P
Did it ever strike you (no pun intended) that they might've deliberately chosen to reveal all of the mystery early on in 2-4 so they could better set up the actual moral plot?

No, because they still play up the mystery as usual, and the moral plot is drawn-out and tedious? I also really don't feel like it developed Nick that much at all, since it doesn't have any definitive, canon resolution.
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Alright we'll just have to agree to disagree with each other on this one :P
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Each case of AAI2, basically have 2 or more events per case, and that makes the game's tension so loose...
Spoiler: like this
I2-1 : fake assassination by Huang, the real assassination by Shelly, murder of Ethan
I2-2 : murder of Horace, jail breaking by Jay
I2-3 : IS-7, poison gas leakage(terror?)
I2-4 : Kay being kidnapped and caught an amnesia, murder of Kagome(Jill Crane?)
I2-5 : murder of Huang, trial of Patricia, John being kidnapped, SS-5, jail breaking by Sirhan


But nevertheless I loved and enjoyed the game so much.
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I'm not following completely. Do you imply it has less events per case than the GS games did? I think a lot is happening in the GK games but in a lot of cases it's just the way the team executed it and writing-wise that it lacks tension.

Anyway I beat case 2. Overall, I didn't like it in the end. I won't go too much into detail since I usually start grasping at things. I'm not really an expert in analysing narrative but I do have an opinion.

I wanted to like it, but it was just a really mediocre case and left me with a real feeling of "meh..."

The only thing I'll comment on for now is that I think it's still the writing that lacks some sort of spark to it. A lot of characters in GK2 like in AAI are caricatures of themselves. They have one gimmick and one joke, and they just drag it out forever to the point where you just want them to either say something ordinary or shut up. They don't seem like real characters sometimes. I do think Debeste is a little better and so was Dogen, but they're still very bland comparing them to many other Ace Attorney characters.

And is it just me or does it seem like the writing, as in dialogue-wise, in the GK series get worse the longer you get into a case? I actually liked case 1 in this game, I thought it was good, like a 7/10 or something (this one was 5/10 in my book) but in this one it's as if the further you got into the case and the more convoluted it became the worse the actual dialogue became. It's like the writer didn't have enough of an overview so he half-assed the humorous aspect of the dialogue. The characters start making very unintelligent and balant remarks, "He is very persuasive as an assassin!" or "Oh look! His face is composed all of a sudden!" and during arguments the characters make their "oomph" animation before you've even spelled out your contradiction, as if they're like "oh no, a new piece of evidence!" Usually most rival characters go "What does that have to do with this!?" and after the protagonist explains the significance they go all "Craaap!" :grey:

Alright that paragraph was 90% nitpicking, but stuff like that is about subtlety and I value that a lot in any kind of narrative. I'm guessing the rest of the game is better, but I still think all the "Oh, if you thought AAI was bad, just play GK2 it's probably the best Ace Attorney I know!" is pure fandom. The best thing I can say about AAI2 so far is that it's a good little time killer, but really, it's nothing significant.
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linkenski wrote:
during arguments the characters make their "oomph" animation before you've even spelled out your contradiction, as if they're like "oh no, a new piece of evidence!" Usually most rival characters go "What does that have to do with this!?" and after the protagonist explains the significance they go all "Craaap!" :grey:

Why is that so terrible? Maybe it's just because the characters understand the significance of that evidence before Edgey spells it out for them xD

also I haven't played the fan translation, but I do have to wonder how much of it is actually the writing and how much is the translation...
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I agree with you, Linkenski, people were really hyping this game like it was the second coming of Mario, and I just fail to see what's supposed to be so great about it.

That said, the best part of Gyakuten Kenji 2 is probably its fourth case, at least the beginning. The ending is so sudden it made my head spin.
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Bad Player wrote:
also I haven't played the fan translation, but I do have to wonder how much of it is actually the writing and how much is the translation...

That's right. You cannot make an unbiased assertion about this game without having played it in Japanese. In general, you also cannot say much about the writing when you're playing a translation, apart from the general story.

I haven't played the fan translation either, aside from some case 1 beta testing, but I did find GK2 to be a lot less boring than most of the original AA games. The cases are tied together, and the logic one needs to use to solve the cases is different from usual. It has a stronger overall story and offers a different type of gameplay from normal AA games. This will inevitably appeal to some people more than the other AA games. You would do well to not ignorantly dismiss people who vocalise their opinion on that as fanboys. In this case, you are probably simply looking at different aspects of the game as you 'rank' the game inside of your mind.
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Bad Player wrote:
linkenski wrote:
during arguments the characters make their "oomph" animation before you've even spelled out your contradiction, as if they're like "oh no, a new piece of evidence!" Usually most rival characters go "What does that have to do with this!?" and after the protagonist explains the significance they go all "Craaap!" :grey:

Why is that so terrible? Maybe it's just because the characters understand the significance of that evidence before Edgey spells it out for them xD

also I haven't played the fan translation, but I do have to wonder how much of it is actually the writing and how much is the translation...

I did think of that first one, but that wasn't the case all the time in case 2. There were 2-3 times where Justine would go all "Oomph" over a piece of evidence that shouldn't logically explain itself before Edgeworth shared his theory with her.

Second, I do wonder myself, because it's really hard to say. I think it's a bit of both because sometimes the writing in the fan-patch is really well localized and other times it's obviously rushed. AAI was worse generally speaking than this fan-patch but there are still some things like Ray Shields basically acting like a robot because he uses the same joke over and over again and other contextual things that are definitely attributed to writing, for instance Justine Courtney's existence or at least her portrayal. The whole scenario too which feels like they took 3 settings and glued them together. (Berry Big Circus at the prison? C'mon, enough with the cameos) and Yamazaki must be fixiated on animals in crimes or something because he just keeps bringing them back in.

Overall I think it's true that the writer did improve in this game, though it doesn't show very much in GK2-2. In the first case it was actually pretty good. I'd say the biggest improvement writing-wise so far is Edgeworth's character portrayal. He does sometimes overreact out-of-character like in AAI, but mostly his comic remarks are more like the Edgeworth you know from GS1-3, something I felt AAI completely screwed up, at its worst. But that could be a localisation issue since the localization of AAI was so half-assed. They exaggerated Edgeworth's posh nature as if they turned it up to 11. Some of his sentences in that game didn't even have proper grammar because they were over-regalized :P

Mracy wrote:
I haven't played the fan translation either, aside from some case 1 beta testing, but I did find GK2 to be a lot less boring than most of the original AA games. The cases are tied together, and the logic one needs to use to solve the cases is different from usual. It has a stronger overall story and offers a different type of gameplay from normal AA games.

Sorry but that sounds incredibly biased. GK2 is less boring than the main GS games? What are you saying!?

Statement 2: Uh, do I need to say more than GS1 or GS3?

Overall though the main problem with GK is that it feels somewhat meaningless. I mean you're solving these crimes and you usually end up arresting the culprit, but what happens after that? The main GS games took the important part of the criminal story, the part where the accused's fate was actually decided. In GK you just arrest them and it's as if assumed they're automatically convicted in their following case.
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Quote:
Sorry but that sounds incredibly biased. GK2 is less boring than the main GS games? What are you saying!?

Overall though the main problem with GK is that it feels somewhat meaningless. I mean you're solving these crimes and you usually end up arresting the culprit, but what happens after that? The main GS games took the important part of the criminal story, the part where the accused's fate was actually decided. In GK you just arrest them and it's as if assumed they're automatically convicted in their following case.

I've already expressed the necessary nuance here; different people look at different sides of the game.
Although considering you ignored what I said about not being able to assert something about the game if you haven't read the Japanese version, among other things, you may not have read my message correctly.

About the main problem you address, what you are talking about becomes somewhat important later on in the story.
This is also an example why you can't assert something about the game unless you've read it (in full, and in Japanese).


(Know that I didn't sign up here to argue. I simply replied because I saw that people here are trying to draw conclusions about the game, despite not having enough information on it. I simply found it was a good opportunity to lecture them.)
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linkenski wrote:
Overall though the main problem with GK is that it feels somewhat meaningless. I mean you're solving these crimes and you usually end up arresting the culprit, but what happens after that? The main GS games took the important part of the criminal story, the part where the accused's fate was actually decided. In GK you just arrest them and it's as if assumed they're automatically convicted in their following case.

Welcome to GK2's plot! Try to see it in full before claiming to know it.

...and on the whole, I find this entire comment strange, considering the culprit usually brings up what will or won't fly in court in order to get out of being arrested. And Edgeworth resolves those issues during the investigation so as to basically ensure that they can be found guilty in court.
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Don't forget that we never see the criminals' trials in the main GS games; like in GK, we just assume they go to trial and get convicted.

For all we know, in both GS and GK, when the criminals go to trial, they hire Kristoph as their attorney and he claims that they confessed merely as part of a psychological breakdown and forges evidence to exonerate them.
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