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GS5 Spoiler Discussion https://forums.court-records.net/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=27489	Page 4 of 5

Author:	Jean Descole [ Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
BonnyMono wrote: I don't know if I am the only who thinks this but... Spoiler: 2-4 and 5-5 Am I the only one who sees the similarities between these two? Spoiler: Good eye, but then, there are quite a few recycled or similar animations between two characters that have nothing to do with each other. I admit it would make an interesting plot if there were some sort of connection. A former killer (well, still a killer) so consumed with fear at being a constant target, yet somehow he still finds his way out of prison. Desperate to start a new life and avoid death at the hands of the one he betrayed, he becomes a killer himself. (Or perhaps he even worked out a deal with the one he betrayed, who was feeling merciful that day.) His experience with playing various roles permits him to "fool" even the "bright"est. But should he fail in his mission, his life will be taken. Now the only thing to figure out is what the betrayed one would want with space centers and moonrocks and shit.

Author:	BonnyMono [ Fri Jan 03, 2014 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
Adrian in black wrote: BonnyMono wrote: I don't know if I am the only who thinks this but... Spoiler: 2-4 and 5-5 Am I the only one who sees the similarities between these two? Spoiler: Good eye, but then, there are quite a few recycled or similar animations between two characters that have nothing to do with each other. I admit it would make an interesting plot if there were some sort of connection. A former killer (well, still a killer) so consumed with fear at being a constant target, yet somehow he still finds his way out of prison. Desperate to start a new life and avoid death at the hands of the one he betrayed, he becomes a killer himself. (Or perhaps he even worked out a deal with the one he betrayed, who was feeling merciful that day.) His experience with playing various roles permits him to "fool" even the "bright"est. But should he fail in his mission, his life will be taken. Now the only thing to figure out is what the betrayed one would want with space centers and moonrocks and shit. Well, prehaps I phrased it wrong. I was only talking about the recycled animation, I didn't mean that they have some sort of connection.

Author:	Jozerick [ Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
I was thinking... Spoiler: GS5 case 5 bad ending In the bad ending where Simon gets executed, it says "Athena left the office". But, correct me if I'm wrong, but Athena was still accused of Clay's murder at the time, wasn't she? So what happened about that? Did Phoenix successfully defend her? Because that ending also says he gave up being a lawyer. Or does the ending implies she was convicted? That would make Simon's sacrifice pointless.

Author:	BonnyMono [ Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
Jozerick wrote: I was thinking... Spoiler: GS5 case 5 bad ending In the bad ending where Simon gets executed, it says "Athena left the office". But, correct me if I'm wrong, but Athena was still accused of Clay's murder at the time, wasn't she? So what happened about that? Did Phoenix successfully defend her? Because that ending also says he gave up being a lawyer. Or does the ending implies she was convicted? That would make Simon's sacrifice pointless. Spoiler: 5-5 At that point, Athena was already found innocent of the murder of her mother AND the other murder. Simon was the guilty party, he was executed, stuff happens. She was probably mad at the bluff queen for not proving Simon's innocence. (I just guessed the last part.)

Author:	Sligneris [ Fri Jan 03, 2014 9:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
Spoiler: 5-5 Huh? She was not proven innocent of murder of Clay Terran then.

Author:	Jean Descole [ Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
BonnyMono wrote: Adrian in black wrote: BonnyMono wrote: I don't know if I am the only who thinks this but... Spoiler: 2-4 and 5-5 Am I the only one who sees the similarities between these two? Spoiler: Good eye, but then, there are quite a few recycled or similar animations between two characters that have nothing to do with each other. I admit it would make an interesting plot if there were some sort of connection. A former killer (well, still a killer) so consumed with fear at being a constant target, yet somehow he still finds his way out of prison. Desperate to start a new life and avoid death at the hands of the one he betrayed, he becomes a killer himself. (Or perhaps he even worked out a deal with the one he betrayed, who was feeling merciful that day.) His experience with playing various roles permits him to "fool" even the "bright"est. But should he fail in his mission, his life will be taken. Now the only thing to figure out is what the betrayed one would want with space centers and moonrocks and shit. Well, prehaps I phrased it wrong. I was only talking about the recycled animation, I didn't mean that they have some sort of connection. Haha, sorry. I guess I can't resist a good old fashioned crazy twist.

Author:	Bad Player [ Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
Y'know, because the "android athena" thing was mentioned, I just had a random thought... They could have put an "android athena" twist in near the end of 5-5, and if they pulled it off right, they would have salvaged the entire game. At some point, they should have pulled Athena up onto the stand to testify about her mother's murder. And Athena gives a really... weird testimony. Phoenix eventually begins to feel like he's heard this sort of thing before. And then he realizes... the thing that could explain Athena's testimony... It's because Athena is just like...! Present Plonco/Clonco BECAUSE ATHENA IS AN ANDROID AND FOLLOWS THE SAME RULES FOR HER TESTIMONY AS THEIRS. Obviously you couldn't just turn Athena into an android and retain the rest of the case exactly as-is, but I feel like if they had done this, they would have both salvaged Athena's character (by explaining how she's so super-special-awesome) and made the last cast not as bad, by giving it a really wow twist, which I think would've been enough.

Author:	Going for Miles [ Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
I WISH.

Author:	Sligneris [ Sat Jan 11, 2014 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
Bad Player wrote: they would have both salvaged Athena's character (by explaining how she's so super-special-awesome) That's... quite clear by now it's pretty subjective matter.

Author:	Going for Miles [ Sat Jan 11, 2014 9:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
Most opinions are.

Author:	Bad Player [ Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
Y'know, I realized last night that in DD, we end The Dark Age of Law by clearing the names of Nick (in AJ) and Blackquill. In other words, we restore the public's faith in the legal system by... Spoiler: showing that an attorney and prosecutor aren't a forger and a murderer, and instead proving that... an attorney and a policeman are a forger and a murderer.

Author:	Rubia Ryu the Royal [ Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
Bad Player wrote: Y'know, I realized last night that in DD, we end The Dark Age of Law by clearing the names of Nick (in AJ) and Blackquill. In other words, we restore the public's faith in the legal system by... Spoiler: showing that an attorney and prosecutor aren't a forger and a murderer, and instead proving that... an attorney and a policeman are a forger and a murderer. No, no, BP. You're looking at it the wrong way. The public's faith in the legal system consists of celebrity names. Who cares about those guys who just show up one game and disappear in the next? ...This universe is so askew.

Author:	Miss All Sunday [ Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:39 am ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
I just had an idea about the whole Dark Age of the Law thing, and now I can't get it out of my head. Since DD was - if I recall correctly - being marketed as somewhat of a jumping-in point for new players, could it be that the game designers included the whole Dark Age theme as a way to "explain" why the justice system is as messed up as it is? (Alongside it being used as a way to make the game ~darker~ and ~edgier~, of course.) I'm not saying they pulled it off particularly well, but still. Actually, I'd be interested to hear the opinion of someone who played DD before the other games, but I doubt many people on CR have. Maybe I'm thinking too hard about this, especially since they didn't bother to do anything like that for the earlier games, obviously.

Author:	Thane [ Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
Bad Player wrote: Y'know, I realized last night that in DD, we end The Dark Age of Law by clearing the names of Nick (in AJ) and Blackquill. In other words, we restore the public's faith in the legal system by... Spoiler: showing that an attorney and prosecutor aren't a forger and a murderer, and instead proving that... an attorney and a policeman are a forger and a murderer. ... Spoiler: No but seriously, I wonder why I never thought about that...granted, the whole "Dark Age of the Law" is so poorly handled and full of holes so I guess I just didn't care enough. Still, good catch. Spoiler: Also, don't forget Godot.

Author:	Sligneris [ Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
However, there were no such hopes in Kristoph as it was with the "legendary" Phoenix Wright, as well as Blackquill was of much bigger renown than Fulbright.

Author:	Ash [ Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
Bad Player wrote: Y'know, I realized last night that in DD, we end The Dark Age of Law by clearing the names of Nick (in AJ) and Blackquill. In other words, we restore the public's faith in the legal system by... Spoiler: showing that an attorney and prosecutor aren't a forger and a murderer, and instead proving that... an attorney and a policeman are a forger and a murderer. Actually, faith in the legal system is restored by Spoiler: proving that a legendary attorney didn't (purposedly) use fake evidence himself to win a case, but that it was planted on him, as part of a plan of a homicidal and mentally not very stable man with a personal (if petty) grudge against Phoenix and his client, and by proving a prosecutor's innocence and exposing a man thought to be a policeman to be an international spy.

Author:	BonnyMono [ Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
Bad Player wrote: Y'know, I realized last night that in DD, we end The Dark Age of Law by clearing the names of Nick (in AJ) and Blackquill. In other words, we restore the public's faith in the legal system by... Spoiler: showing that an attorney and prosecutor aren't a forger and a murderer, and instead proving that... an attorney and a policeman are a forger and a murderer. Wait a minute... Did they even state WHEN the Dark Age of the Law started? As far as I know, every AA game shows something that the law has been screwing up. (I guess.)

Author:	Thane [ Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
BonnyMono wrote: Bad Player wrote: Y'know, I realized last night that in DD, we end The Dark Age of Law by clearing the names of Nick (in AJ) and Blackquill. In other words, we restore the public's faith in the legal system by... Spoiler: showing that an attorney and prosecutor aren't a forger and a murderer, and instead proving that... an attorney and a policeman are a forger and a murderer. Wait a minute... Did they even state WHEN the Dark Age of the Law started? As far as I know, every AA game shows something that the law has been screwing up. (I guess.) It's repeatedly stated that it started after both Phoenix and Blackquill committed their supposed crimes. They even talk with each other about it in 5-5, and vow to bring an end to it together.

Author:	Bad Player [ Tue Jan 14, 2014 5:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
Ash wrote: Bad Player wrote: Y'know, I realized last night that in DD, we end The Dark Age of Law by clearing the names of Nick (in AJ) and Blackquill. In other words, we restore the public's faith in the legal system by... Spoiler: showing that an attorney and prosecutor aren't a forger and a murderer, and instead proving that... an attorney and a policeman are a forger and a murderer. Actually, faith in the legal system is restored by Spoiler: proving that a legendary attorney didn't (purposedly) use fake evidence himself to win a case, but that it was planted on him, as part of a plan of a homicidal and mentally not very stable man with a personal (if petty) grudge against Phoenix and his client, and by proving a prosecutor's innocence and exposing a man thought to be a policeman to be an international spy. Spoiler: I really have to wonder how "legendary" Nick actually was. Sure, he wins all his cases, but he never seems particularly rich, popular, or famous. I mean, he only handles a few cases a year! (I know there's that line at the beginning 1-5 talking about how Nick turned town a bunch of clients until Ema came along, but I think that they retconned Nick to be a bit more famous than he was in 1-5 and AJ.) Even if he was famous, though, Kristoph was pretty high up too: he's a member of... whatever committee it was that took Nick's badge, he's clearly pretty affluent, and he's famous enough that he's the first person a celebrity like Zak Gramarye goes to when he's in trouble. Honestly? Kristoph is worse. Nick was only accused of forgery; we prove Kristoph guilty of forgery, two murders, and an attempted murder. Whether it's a "legendary" attorney or not, it's still a defense attorney who's "up there" doing all sorts of illegal acts. Similarly, who cares if the policeman is an international spy? If you have a policeman running around killing people and forging evidence, do you really care why he's doing it? No--the bottom line is that a member of the police force is doing all sorts of illegal acts. And while they may not be a direct member of the courts, they're still the one who determines which evidence makes it there. While I did simplify things a tiny bit in my first post about this, I don't think adding the proper detail actually changes it when you think about it.

Author:	Cravat of Doom [ Tue Jan 14, 2014 5:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
The Kristoph thing really bothered me too, because he was clearly more famous/prestigious than Phoenix. As you mentioned, the "Coolest Defense in the West" was highly sought-after. I don't think Phoenix's acquittal/Kristoph's convictions should have helped deflate the Dark Age of the Law™-- it would have made a bit more sense for it to make the dark age DARKER. "Oh, this one attorney didn't forge evidence after all? Great, it was merely a different famous rich-as-shit lawyer who manipulated his brother who happened to also be the prosecution get another lawyer disbarred and then he went out and attempted to kill a bunch of people while continuing to practice law for seven more years! And then he tried to manipulate his protege into accusing the same guy he already badly fucked over? Ohh!! We're really getting more transparent and honest, aren't we?" I'll keep saying this until I'm blue in the face but the Gavin story should have been a part of GS5. They already had a plot to build on, why so much resetting? They still could have made it accessible to new players in the same way the State vs Blackquill case was made accessible to us even though it technically didn't "happen" when we played the game.

Author:	Sligneris [ Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
It wouldn't be accessible, as the new players would then start GS4 knowing everything that happened.

Author:	Ash [ Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
Bad Player wrote: Spoiler: I really have to wonder how "legendary" Nick actually was. Sure, he wins all his cases, but he never seems particularly rich, popular, or famous. I mean, he only handles a few cases a year! (I know there's that line at the beginning 1-5 talking about how Nick turned town a bunch of clients until Ema came along, but I think that they retconned Nick to be a bit more famous than he was in 1-5 and AJ.) Even if he was famous, though, Kristoph was pretty high up too: he's a member of... whatever committee it was that took Nick's badge, he's clearly pretty affluent, and he's famous enough that he's the first person a celebrity like Zak Gramarye goes to when he's in trouble. Honestly? Kristoph is worse. Nick was only accused of forgery; we prove Kristoph guilty of forgery, two murders, and an attempted murder. Whether it's a "legendary" attorney or not, it's still a defense attorney who's "up there" doing all sorts of illegal acts. Similarly, who cares if the policeman is an international spy? If you have a policeman running around killing people and forging evidence, do you really care why he's doing it? No--the bottom line is that a member of the police force is doing all sorts of illegal acts. And while they may not be a direct member of the courts, they're still the one who determines which evidence makes it there. While I did simplify things a tiny bit in my first post about this, I don't think adding the proper detail actually changes it when you think about it. Spoiler: We're talking along two slightly different lines here now. The thing, neither Phoenix, nor Kristoph faked evidence (in this particular case) to win the case (i.e. to carry out their 'duty' as a defense attorney); the case of the fake evidence planted on Phoenix was a personal vengeance action, not an action meant to undermine the judicial system, so it actually doesn't even matter they were attornies. Similar for Fulbright; the murderer was proven not to be a policeman, but someone who had taken the identity of one (and, maybe even killed him). It was a disguise (even if an elobarate one), so in essence it doesn't differ from Biyouin taking on the guise of Great Kyuubi etc. You wouldn't say the waiter did it in that one famous detective short story, right?

Author:	Thane [ Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
Sligneris wrote: It wouldn't be accessible, as the new players would then start GS4 knowing everything that happened. I'm guessing that's his point. The story suffered because they wanted to appeal to newcomers.

Author:	Cravat of Doom [ Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
Thane wrote: Sligneris wrote: It wouldn't be accessible, as the new players would then start GS4 knowing everything that happened. I'm guessing that's his point. The story suffered because they wanted to appeal to newcomers. (her) And yeah-- Why is Capcom suddenly so mortified at mentioning plot points from previous games? It didn't make one iota of difference to them in GS1-3. It's like refusing to mention plot points from the first book when writing a sequel... No author ever does that, yet people still start series out of order. It's not a huge deal in that regard for most creators. How many times have you seen the sequel to a movie that essentially told you the plot of the first movie, but still watched it anyway? It happens.

Author:	Bad Player [ Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
Ash wrote: Bad Player wrote: Spoiler: I really have to wonder how "legendary" Nick actually was. Sure, he wins all his cases, but he never seems particularly rich, popular, or famous. I mean, he only handles a few cases a year! (I know there's that line at the beginning 1-5 talking about how Nick turned town a bunch of clients until Ema came along, but I think that they retconned Nick to be a bit more famous than he was in 1-5 and AJ.) Even if he was famous, though, Kristoph was pretty high up too: he's a member of... whatever committee it was that took Nick's badge, he's clearly pretty affluent, and he's famous enough that he's the first person a celebrity like Zak Gramarye goes to when he's in trouble. Honestly? Kristoph is worse. Nick was only accused of forgery; we prove Kristoph guilty of forgery, two murders, and an attempted murder. Whether it's a "legendary" attorney or not, it's still a defense attorney who's "up there" doing all sorts of illegal acts. Similarly, who cares if the policeman is an international spy? If you have a policeman running around killing people and forging evidence, do you really care why he's doing it? No--the bottom line is that a member of the police force is doing all sorts of illegal acts. And while they may not be a direct member of the courts, they're still the one who determines which evidence makes it there. While I did simplify things a tiny bit in my first post about this, I don't think adding the proper detail actually changes it when you think about it. Spoiler: We're talking along two slightly different lines here now. The thing, neither Phoenix, nor Kristoph faked evidence (in this particular case) to win the case (i.e. to carry out their 'duty' as a defense attorney); the case of the fake evidence planted on Phoenix was a personal vengeance action, not an action meant to undermine the judicial system, so it actually doesn't even matter they were attornies. Similar for Fulbright; the murderer was proven not to be a policeman, but someone who had taken the identity of one (and, maybe even killed him). It was a disguise (even if an elobarate one), so in essence it doesn't differ from Biyouin taking on the guise of Great Kyuubi etc. You wouldn't say the waiter did it in that one famous detective short story, right? Spoiler: I... I thought the whole reason Kristoph forged the evidence was to win the case? Admittedly he used it for vengeance, but its original purpose was to win the case. But I think this is all irrelevant, and I think the fact that they were attornies is important (at least because of how the game presents TDAoL). Regardless of the reason, in both scenarios you had a famous, successful (possibly for Nick; definitely for Kristoph) attorney forging evidence for use in court. Also, is there really much of a difference between a policeman running around forging evidence and killing people, and someone who isn't a policeman pretending to be one and running around forging evidence and killing people? Either way, you have some who appears to/who is claiming to be a member of the police force running around doing bad stuff. From the public's point of view (which is what TDAoL is all about!), the bottom line is that you had forged evidence going to the courts from the police force. (Also I have no idea which short story you're talking about xP The only mystery short stories I've read are a few Holmes ones, and I hated them.) @Cravat of Doom: While it may be okay in general, refusing to give out plot points like that in a mystery is something I can understand, even if I agree that it sometimes feels like it ends up constraining the franchise a bit too much.

Author:	Ash [ Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
Bad Player wrote: Spoiler: I... I thought the whole reason Kristoph forged the evidence was to win the case? Admittedly he used it for vengeance, but its original purpose was to win the case. But I think this is all irrelevant, and I think the fact that they were attornies is important (at least because of how the game presents TDAoL). Regardless of the reason, in both scenarios you had a famous, successful (possibly for Nick; definitely for Kristoph) attorney forging evidence for use in court. Also, is there really much of a difference between a policeman running around forging evidence and killing people, and someone who isn't a policeman pretending to be one and running around forging evidence and killing people? Either way, you have some who appears to/who is claiming to be a member of the police force running around doing bad stuff. From the public's point of view (which is what TDAoL is all about!), the bottom line is that you had forged evidence going to the courts from the police force. (Also I have no idea which short story you're talking about xP The only mystery short stories I've read are a few Holmes ones, and I hated them.) Spoiler: But TDAoL is about the inaptness of the judicial system, not of individual actions. Any means necessary, forging evidence to win cases. But by 4-4, it's proven that Kristoph is 1) mentally not entirely sane and 2) that the fake evidence Phoenix tried to use to win a case (jn the eyes of the public) was in fact planted on him, because of personal revenge based on hurt pride, so abstractly speaking, it has nothing to do with the judicial system. Kristoph didn't act because he did because he was an attorney, but because he is a madman. That to me is quite different, becuase it goes from an action performed by an attorney (i.e. TDAoL related), to a personal action. And yes, there is a difference between a policeman being a murderer, and someone pretending to be one being a murderer. It again moves the focus from 'policeman' to 'something different'. Anyone can dress up as someone different and commit crimes as such, yet I don't think people will blame the group that someone dresses up as (if the masquerade is found out, as was eventually in DD). (i.e. do we blame all blind sign interpreters for that one man that posed as one during Mandela's funeral ceremony?). It might be different if Ban had been a high-ranking policeman maybe, but he was a precinct/所轄 cop, which is normally low in the metropolitan police hierarchy. @Cravat of Doom: While it may be okay in general, refusing to give out plot points like that in a mystery is something I can understand, even if I agree that it sometimes feels like it ends up constraining the franchise a bit too much.

Author:	Bad Player [ Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
Ash wrote: Bad Player wrote: Spoiler: I... I thought the whole reason Kristoph forged the evidence was to win the case? Admittedly he used it for vengeance, but its original purpose was to win the case. But I think this is all irrelevant, and I think the fact that they were attornies is important (at least because of how the game presents TDAoL). Regardless of the reason, in both scenarios you had a famous, successful (possibly for Nick; definitely for Kristoph) attorney forging evidence for use in court. Also, is there really much of a difference between a policeman running around forging evidence and killing people, and someone who isn't a policeman pretending to be one and running around forging evidence and killing people? Either way, you have some who appears to/who is claiming to be a member of the police force running around doing bad stuff. From the public's point of view (which is what TDAoL is all about!), the bottom line is that you had forged evidence going to the courts from the police force. (Also I have no idea which short story you're talking about xP The only mystery short stories I've read are a few Holmes ones, and I hated them.) Spoiler: But TDAoL is about the inaptness of the judicial system, not of individual actions. Any means necessary, forging evidence to win cases. But by 4-4, it's proven that Kristoph is 1) mentally not entirely sane and 2) that the fake evidence Phoenix tried to use to win a case (jn the eyes of the public) was in fact planted on him, because of personal revenge based on hurt pride, so abstractly speaking, it has nothing to do with the judicial system. Kristoph didn't act because he did because he was an attorney, but because he is a madman. That to me is quite different, becuase it goes from an action performed by an attorney (i.e. TDAoL related), to a personal action. And yes, there is a difference between a policeman being a murderer, and someone pretending to be one being a murderer. It again moves the focus from 'policeman' to 'something different'. Anyone can dress up as someone different and commit crimes as such, yet I don't think people will blame the group that someone dresses up as (if the masquerade is found out, as was eventually in DD). (i.e. do we blame all blind sign interpreters for that one man that posed as one during Mandela's funeral ceremony?). It might be different if Ban had been a high-ranking policeman maybe, but he was a precinct/所轄 cop, which is normally low in the metropolitan police hierarchy. @Cravat of Doom: While it may be okay in general, refusing to give out plot points like that in a mystery is something I can understand, even if I agree that it sometimes feels like it ends up constraining the franchise a bit too much. I get the feeling we have differing views about exactly how much the public is going to find out. Spoiler: I mean, I don't think the whole petty-revenge-motive-gramarye-story-thing would make it to the papers in its entirety. The story would probably be something like "Forged evidence to win case, instead used it to frame Phoenix Wright, killed two and attempted to murder a third to cover it up." To me, at least, the fact that he had every intention of using the evidence in court, and had it made in the first place, would be enough. I wouldn't say to myself "Well, he was going to use it in court to win the case, but he used it in court for a different reason, so I guess the legal system isn't really populated with bad people." I mean, even if you just come to the conclusion that Kristoph was a madman, isn't the fact "A normal-seeming and high-ranking defense attorney was actually a psychopathic criminal" pretty TDAoL-related? Similarly, if the Phantom could sneak into the police force and kill people and forge evidence, what's to stop other cops from doing that, or to stop other people from sneaking into the police force and doing it? (While we don't actually know of other cases where he forged evidence and/or killed someone, there's no guarantee--especially for the public--that he didn't.) ...I think we're going to just need to wrap this up into "agree to disagree" pretty soon I don't think there's really much to 'back up' either side.

Author:	Sligneris [ Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
Yeah, that... The theme itself is pretty good, but is filled with inconsistencies.

Author:	Sligneris [ Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
Legal Double Post Quote: I'd like to know a little more about the dark age of the law. Manfred von Karma, Damon Gant, Lana Skye, head of the Prosecutorial Investigation Committee, Kristoph Gavin and Chief Justice. All of them were respected, influential in the world of law high-profile individuals who operated for years. All of them corrupt, engaged in illegal activities. Most of them being murderers as well. Why neither of them (excluding for obvious reasons Gavin and Chief Justice) started such a dark age, but a rookie prosecutor and a constantly bluffing attorney did? I always wondered that, until I saw that article heading in one of the newspapers. "The Samurai's Honor Restored: Simon Blackquill, just as Phoenix Wright, finally proven innocent". The word "finally" surprised me. It's like the author believed they were innocent. The rest of the article confirmed my expectations. That sort of opened up the possibility to me. Which is exactly the question I'd like to ask, as I am not that well informed with the public opinion, myself: Was the reason for the dark age of the law the fact that Blackquill and Wright supposedly committed their crimes, or was it - I quote - because of the "clumsily handled" trial of theirs? As I looked up to their cases, it would be right, because - as lately revealed - there was a massive cover-up for Blackquill case (along with the footage apparently not investigated/reported properly) and investigation of Wright's disbarment was incomplete to say the least. This is going to be part of my letter to Edgeworth on Ask Ace Attorney, which sort of imposes my own headcanon, but I guess that is not a problem as it's addressed to as speculation and just one, single in-universe newspaper... That is my theory regarding DAotL theme, anyway.

Author:	SuperSega360 [ Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:04 am ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
Spoiler: Is noone going to address the fact that Fulbright jumped something like 20 foot onto a ladder? I'm sure physics would have to disagree at some point

Author:	BonnyMono [ Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:23 am ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
SuperSega360 wrote: Spoiler: Is noone going to address the fact that Fulbright jumped something like 20 foot onto a ladder? I'm sure physics would have to disagree at some point Spoiler: I don't think Phantom gives a shit about physics, he just jumped. And besides, I bet making a running start would at least get him holding onto the ladder even if he fell along with the distance.

Author:	Bad Player [ Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
Maybe he did track and field in high school?

Author:	Sligneris [ Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
How do you imagine him in high school?

Author:	BonnyMono [ Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
Sligneris wrote: How do you imagine him in high school? It makes sense if you think deeply about it. Perhaps the people he was impersonating were bullying him and decided to remove his own identity and impersonate the one who was bullying. ... UNNECESSARY LOGIC IS FUN!

Author:	Sowl16 [ Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
So i just finished the first case, i have so much trouble going on because there's a gaping hole in the plot to my understanding. Spoiler: So Mrs Arme was killed in the courtroom No.4 and left her message in blood BEFORE the bomb exploded. That means the bloody message was on the floor during the trial when there was people there?

Author:	Jean Descole [ Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
Sowl16 wrote: So i just finished the first case, i have so much trouble going on because there's a gaping hole in the plot to my understanding. Spoiler: So Mrs Arme was killed in the courtroom No.4 and left her message in blood BEFORE the bomb exploded. That means the bloody message was on the floor during the trial when there was people there? Spoiler: Yes. The message in blood was hidden by the location of the bomb transport case. The same transport case used to conceal Candace's body.

Author:	Skyler [ Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
Spoiler: 5-5 and DLC Re: Pearl's design It's almost as if different girls have different body types or something.

Author:	linkenski [ Mon Mar 31, 2014 4:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
Bad Player wrote: Y'know, I realized last night that in DD, we end The Dark Age of Law by clearing the names of Nick (in AJ) and Blackquill. In other words, we restore the public's faith in the legal system by... Spoiler: showing that an attorney and prosecutor aren't a forger and a murderer, and instead proving that... an attorney and a policeman are a forger and a murderer. Baaahahaha facepalm "Teh Dark Aeg of Laew" is such a poorly handled plotline x)

Author:	JesusMonroe [ Sat May 17, 2014 5:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
I just realized something. About 41 minutes in... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9unMpCcQpA Phoenix mentions the one responsible for the courtroom bombing is the Phantom. We don't know that yet. I'm glad I missed that or didn't think much of it my first time through. The game spoiled itself

Author:	Nearavex [ Sat May 17, 2014 8:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: GS5 Spoiler Discussion
The whole after-recess part of the Turnabout for Tomorrow is really badly handled when it comes to the writing, with phantom amateurishly screwing up his facade, 'cause he can, both prosecution and defense attorney (and then the judge) ganging up on him, everyone reacting like "Huh? And who would believe that?" to the valid claims made by the witness and on top of that prosecutor being the sworn protector of the defendant, so that prosecuting her is the last thing on his mind. Some of this terrible writing leaking out to the one line during the recess part is not really surprising, and I really don't mind that much... Not with this screw-up of the finale.

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