Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
Nearavex wrote:
Either way, I don't really like, how people heavily bash Athena's existence, while there was nothing of the sort in regards to Klavier or Franziska. I know it was brought up enough times already, but I can't help, but to feel there's some hypocrisy in that. 
You clearly missed out on the debates on Klavier. There's plenty to search in the GS4 board, to this day. The ones over Franzy are way back in the early days of the forum, but the records are still there. It's just a hassle to search through those long character threads..
I take that back, then. I just hope this matter will manage to grow old too.
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Nearavex wrote:
Either way, I don't really like, how people heavily bash Athena's existence, while there was nothing of the sort in regards to Klavier or Franziska. I know it was brought up enough times already, but I can't help, but to feel there's some hypocrisy in that.
Do you want me to PM you my Klavier rant or something? I've said this before in the thread, but... one glance at the thread title should tell you why people aren't complaining about Klavier and Franzy in here.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Nearavex wrote:
Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
Nearavex wrote:
Either way, I don't really like, how people heavily bash Athena's existence, while there was nothing of the sort in regards to Klavier or Franziska. I know it was brought up enough times already, but I can't help, but to feel there's some hypocrisy in that.
You clearly missed out on the debates on Klavier. There's plenty to search in the GS4 board, to this day. The ones over Franzy are way back in the early days of the forum, but the records are still there. It's just a hassle to search through those long character threads..
I take that back, then. I just hope this matter will manage to grow old too.
Sure it'll grow old...but people's opinions won't change. You just need to learn to accept that some people don't like Athena...and there's nothing wrong with that. You like Athena and there's nothing wrong with that either. People will put their opinion on the internet but there's no need for you to rise and fight them at every occasion. Even if you do choose to object then there's no need to put others down and dismiss them as "Athena-haters" like it automatically invalidates their opinions.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Nearavex wrote:
Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
Nearavex wrote:
Either way, I don't really like, how people heavily bash Athena's existence, while there was nothing of the sort in regards to Klavier or Franziska. I know it was brought up enough times already, but I can't help, but to feel there's some hypocrisy in that.
You clearly missed out on the debates on Klavier. There's plenty to search in the GS4 board, to this day. The ones over Franzy are way back in the early days of the forum, but the records are still there. It's just a hassle to search through those long character threads..
I take that back, then. I just hope this matter will manage to grow old too.
You really leave me completely speechless. Klavier and Franziska been mentioned numerous times by myself and others (just look at one of my first posts on the last page), and every single time we've pointed out that even if we didn't have a problem with them - which we all have to some extent I believe, as has been stated several times as well - they have nothing to do with Athena. Had this been a discussion about Klavier, Athena would barely be mentioned.
Why are you even still on the thread if you're clearly not interested in debating, and it only seems to annoy you and provoke childish reactions? You don't even seem to read entire posts, not even the ones addressed directly to you.
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Thane wrote:
Why are you even still on the thread if you're clearly not interested in debating, and it only seems to annoy you and provoke childish reactions? You don't even seem to read entire posts, not even the ones addressed directly to you.
Strange, I'm pretty sure I did debate. Now, you're getting on a personal level here, which I'm pretty sure is not how proper debates should be handled either.
Also, really. You say about me not reading whole posts, and then you miss exactly the post you responded to, which spelled "I take that back"...? That much is really unbelievable.
Pierre wrote:
Sure it'll grow old...but people's opinions won't change. You just need to learn to accept that some people don't like Athena...and there's nothing wrong with that. You like Athena and there's nothing wrong with that either. People will put their opinion on the internet but there's no need for you to rise and fight them at every occasion. Even if you do choose to object then there's no need to put others down and dismiss them as "Athena-haters" like it automatically invalidates their opinions.
That much, I am really fine with, there were just... some posts on these forms that brought me here in the first place. Still, I'm a person who just likes to come up with solutions to the problems - so, when I hear of these problems with Athena, I try to provide explanations, but I just can't help but to feel that those are just omitted.
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Nearavex wrote:
Thane wrote:
Why are you even still on the thread if you're clearly not interested in debating, and it only seems to annoy you and provoke childish reactions? You don't even seem to read entire posts, not even the ones addressed directly to you.
Strange, I'm pretty sure I did debate. Now, you're getting on a personal level here, which I'm pretty sure is not how proper debates should be handled either.
You constantly ignore entire posts and arguments in favor of spewing your usual garbage and you think I'm going to get pleasantly surprised when you admit you're wrong in one of your mistaken assumptions?
As for getting personal, you're damn right. You've been nothing but a nuisance for the entirety of this thread, and you've been a dick towards people more eloquent and patient than I, who for some reason are willing to put up with you.
This is quoted from you:
Quote:
"...Wait, you seriously kept discussing Athena's character for 14 pages? All the time, with posts long like these above?
That's... pretty amazing."
"Uh, okay, then it makes sense. I'm way to lazy to give explanations xD"
"...Hateful moderators? That's new.
Sarcasm detection, btw."
That's... pretty amazing."
"Uh, okay, then it makes sense. I'm way to lazy to give explanations xD"
"...Hateful moderators? That's new.
Sarcasm detection, btw."
Most of those are just from page 16, in case you want to go back and verify quotes.
Now, how about we continue the discussion without acting like a child throwing a tantrum?
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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You said you want to carry on with the debate, but then here you are, interrupting it with a character assassination.
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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(We probably also shouldn't discuss discussing discussing Athena either)
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Ideally points would be decided or agreed upon which would mean the debate would get smaller and smaller until all issues had been resolved satisfactorily between two parties.
The other way debates peter out is when one party conveniently ignores and filters out small points that bother them or they don't have an answer to and never return to. The person who made the argument knows it's been missed out and it's frustrating as it means the person is being overly proud and disrespectful by neither conceding the opposing party has a point or that they don't have an answer just yet, or if it's just a matter of opinion that they can't bear to walk away from the argument.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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But, like Mod BP says, let's end the whole meta-discussion, 'kay?
A little more on-topic, I think my biggest problem of them all about Athena right now, is that I don't really know what Capcom should do with her in GS6 if they bring her back in. She already has the same amount of backstory and also kind of on the character development front as Edgeworth had over the course of all three games in the trilogy... but I guess they managed to evolve Edgey even further (and in a great way) with AAI2, so maybe they will be able to pull something genuinely interesting off with Athena in the next game too... but I just can't see them doing it without somehow making it seem forced because she got so much attention in just one game.
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Obviously that would be impossible since Apollo's Dad died like 21 years ago but I think you get my point. I actually thought the final case of DD worked well with the way it made it so everybody had a stake in bringing the Phantom down. It might be hard to do the same with Athena
Though, after Ema's development in 1-5, I was really interested in how she'd be brought back into the series and that was handled less than well. I can see Athena kind of relegating back into the de facto assistant role/sometimes playable. I can also guarantee she'll be accused of murder again
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Now, let's go back to bashing Athena instead.
I'm inclined to agree with you, JesusMonroe (and in other news hell froze over), I'm dreading something along those lines as well. They seem adamant to push Athena as a cool character liked by all, and I'm not sure where they'll stop. Persona 4, for all its merits, is now doing the same thing with Marie in its numerous spin-offs and other media, and I'm wondering if Athena won't get a similar treatment.
Of course, there's no real indication of that just yet, but somehow she (sadly) has to be relevant to the story in some way, and considering pretty much her entire character arc was finished in Dual Destinies, one has to wonder where they'll go from here.
What makes you think she'll be accused of murder though?
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Personally, I'm worried about her future, too. Apollo has plot points to pick up from his first game, Phoenix would be actually quite involved in those, too, but now we have Athena, who will probably just feel disconnected from all that.
Still, we have quite a limited insight on what the future games will really be, since unlike fans tend to do, developers don't only work with already established information - I mean come on, how many theorized GS5s were almost carbon copies of AJ? - instead, they always tell a new story and aside from the major characters, they fill each game with its own cast, so I think there is a room for potential - we just don't really have the necessary information yet.
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Nearavex wrote:
Please don't get her accused of murder - we don't need another Maya.
Personally, I'm worried about her future, too. Apollo has plot points to pick up from his first game, Phoenix would be actually quite involved in those, too, but now we have Athena, who will probably just feel disconnected from all that.
Personally, I'm worried about her future, too. Apollo has plot points to pick up from his first game, Phoenix would be actually quite involved in those, too, but now we have Athena, who will probably just feel disconnected from all that.
And righteously so. Athena got plenty of time dedicated to her in a game many thought would be primarily about Phoenix and had hoped they'd resolve those plot points of Apollo's.
If they just took a game to iron out Apollo a bit it'd be alright with me.
Quote:
What makes you think she'll be accused of murder though?
Instinct....
Then again with Maya speculated to return there's a chance they'll get the genuine article tried for murder instead of using Athena as a Maya-substitute.
Honestly I hope they just shuffle Athena off into a minor role. Kind of how they did with Apollo most of this game, I figure it'll be hard to juggle the spotlight between three attorneys now though but I'd like Trucy to make a bit of a return.
Still I REALLY hope they don't tie Apollo and Athena's past together like you suggested, I'd hope the writers would be savvy enough to sense the tone and not force Athena into everything.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Thane wrote:
What makes you think she'll be accused of murder though?
Spoiler: GK2
I can just kind of see Athena tying into the final case by being a victim of it (not a murder victim, though). It'd be a way to motivate the WAA and Simon, at least. So maybe not accused of murder, but if she does tie into whatever case closes Apollo's story, it's going to be as a defendant/victim that turns into a decisive witness
Plus, I can already see concept art of Athena covered in bandages
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Is there anyone here who frequently roams Japanese forums? Last time I heard, Athena wasn't well-liked at all, and it sounded almost like she was even less popular over there than here. The reason I'm asking is because I highly doubt Japanese developers care one iota about Western criticism, but it'd be stupid of them to ignore the Japanese fanbase.
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Thane wrote:
True, someone needs dramatic bandages, or else I wouldn't know it was a Yamazaki game.
Is there anyone here who frequently roams Japanese forums? Last time I heard, Athena wasn't well-liked at all, and it sounded almost like she was even less popular over there than here. The reason I'm asking is because I highly doubt Japanese developers care one iota about Western criticism, but it'd be stupid of them to ignore the Japanese fanbase.
Is there anyone here who frequently roams Japanese forums? Last time I heard, Athena wasn't well-liked at all, and it sounded almost like she was even less popular over there than here. The reason I'm asking is because I highly doubt Japanese developers care one iota about Western criticism, but it'd be stupid of them to ignore the Japanese fanbase.
I'd heard that too but I have no idea where the source was from.
Also the bandages reminds me of one of the better ideas I heard in the GS6 ideas forum: There's an attack on Athena and she's left injured and out of action in hospital. Then during the trial on her aggressor things look bleak and cue heavily-bandaged Athena bursting into the room to take the stand.
After the trial is said and done, or possibly even on the witness stand. Athena says "I'm sorry...I had to be here..." and removes the bandages to reveal Maya channelling Athena. Turned out Athena knew it was the only way she'd be able to testify and pulled her own plug just to make it to court and do Justice.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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*sigh* I really don't know why people make up ideas used as excuse to kill Athena off or have canonical material acknowledge their own opinion.
Last edited by Nearavex on Sat Aug 09, 2014 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Nearavex wrote:
I don't think anyone would value presence in a courtroom over someone's life. That would be just creepy.
This is Japanifornia, mate. Nothing is valued higher than the flimsly legal system.
However, I don't think I particularly like that idea. I'm all for Athena dying and making a case out of it, but leaving her injured only to pull the plug and to have Maya appear channeling sounds like a bit of an overkill.
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Quote:
I don't think anyone would value presence in a courtroom over someone's life. That would be just creepy.
Normally I'd agree, but I think Athena on life support knowing only she could save the day with her testimony might go for it. You know how passionate she gets about
, she'd do anything for it.Thane wrote:
Nearavex wrote:
I don't think anyone would value presence in a courtroom over someone's life. That would be just creepy.
This is Japanifornia, mate. Nothing is valued higher than the flimsly legal system.
However, I don't think I particularly like that idea. I'm all for Athena dying and making a case out of it, but leaving her injured only to pull the plug and to have Maya appear channeling sounds like a bit of an overkill.
Eh to each their own, this was under the assumption that Maya would be around in GS6 (rather than exclusively for this moment). I think the person who put it up thought it would appease both the "Kill Athena" and the "Love Athena" crowd and it seems like quite a touching moment to me.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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"Basically it was going to have two simultaneous trials. One was Phoenix with Maya defending Edgeworth from kidnapping and attempted murder charges when Aura was smuggled out of jail and found tied up in the Chief Prosecutor’s car trunk or wherever I decided to put her.
The other was going to be Athena with Trucy defending Apollo from charges of murdering Thalassa Gramarye, shortly after learning what she was to him.
This was going to be another “homecoming” case with big names and faces returning and each having their own roles. For example, Simon was going to be on the lamb as a suspect in breaking his sister out of prison before it was discovered where she had gone and I wanted Franziska’s older sister to be the one prosecuting against Edgeworth.
Naturally, the mastermind behind all this was going to be Kristoph attempting to tear down those that “shined light on the dark age of the law”. He was behind himself with fury at their hypocrisy and the sycophants lauding them, so he wanted to undo them before his execution date. The trick, however, was how he’d manage it from behind bars. He needed someone who could move freely and could be coerced into having similar goals.
Well, there happened to be a simple repair man doing work in the prison at the time. That repair man used to have a better job. He used to do work in a space center, had himself a pretty girlfriend, had a daughter… but lost it all because of a foul tempered roboticist turning his lady against him.
Athena was going to expose her own father as a murderer only moments after discovering who he was."
Well, I wouldn't have handled it exactly this way, but I like the idea about Athena's father - had he been involved in a case, Athena would have a lot of potential as a playable character.
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Nearavex wrote:
Technically, I just didn't want my comment earlier about the bandaged Athena idea as a part of this longer post.
Well then, as long as any close character exists there's a chance someone will want her killed off.
I mean come on, before Athena there was plenty of calls for Trucy to get killed off next game, and before her Maya. People just think there's a good case to be had if an actual important character bites the bullet.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Pierre wrote:
Well then, as long as any close character exists there's a chance someone will want her killed off.
I mean come on, before Athena there was plenty of calls for Trucy to get killed off next game, and before her Maya. People just think there's a good case to be had if an actual important character bites the bullet.
I mean come on, before Athena there was plenty of calls for Trucy to get killed off next game, and before her Maya. People just think there's a good case to be had if an actual important character bites the bullet.
For some reason, I thought about Simon. Still, that would make clearing his name in Case 5 a bit pointless.
Except... He's one of these character that I'm not really sure if much can be done with.
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Honestly, I mainly want Trucy to have a chance to shine. She's got an awfully small amount of screentime considering she's basically connected to two major lingering plot threads, the daughter of Phoenix, the sister of Apollo and friend to Pearls, although the latter is not as important, obviously.
As for Simon, I believe he'll follow the tradition of being the guest prosecutor of the last case. He'll probably be a bit more relaxed outside of court but still use his intimidation tactics when dealing with fools.
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I for one, actually liked the fact that our legal assistant was an actual lawyer for once.
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Nearavex wrote:
Well, the thing is, Trucy does have to attend school. GS4 didn't exactly make sense on this matter, with Trucy hanging out with Apollo solving cases, while apparently skipping classes.
I for one, actually liked the fact that our legal assistant was an actual lawyer for once.
I for one, actually liked the fact that our legal assistant was an actual lawyer for once.
The fact that she's a lawyer is detrimental to me, because they cannot juggle screentime between three lawyers effectively.
Also you'd think Trucy would have to attend school, but Athena barely did and look how fine she turned out! /sickburn
Point is they shouldn't let something as frivolous as a day job or school interfere with the character interacting with the present-day story. It's not the Sims after all.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Nearavex wrote:
Well, the thing is, Trucy does have to attend school. GS4 didn't exactly make sense on this matter, with Trucy hanging out with Apollo solving cases, while apparently skipping classes.
There's no problem in the Japanese version though: compulsory education in Japan stops with lower secondary school / junior high (15), so she's just another member of the working population in GS4.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Nearavex wrote:
*sigh* I really don't know why people make up ideas used as excuse to kill Athena off or have canonical material acknowledge their own opinion.
Nah. I just thought it was a good idea. Kind of like what Pierre said about thinking a good case could come out of a major character being killed off. Don't believe me? I made this post in the GK3 thread:
JesusMonroe wrote:
This might be too dark for the series and it would be the first time it's happened since 1-2, but what if Kay was killed? (And then Maya/Pearls makes a brief appearance at the end to channel her so the two can have a proper farewell). Nothing in Dual Destinies contradicts it and it could spark fan outcry, but it would be a pretty huge spin on the series. I doubt it'll happen considering Kay is pretty young, but GK3 could take place in 2024, which would make her 22. I know it'll never happen but I'm just spitballin'
Though I do know the bandage idea has problems. I just wanted to say it wasn't used as an excuse to kill off Athena
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God I hate that ridiculous phrase.
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Thane wrote:
One could argue Kay should be a culprit in a case since she's a thief, but hey, she's only "stealing truth", so that makes it okay.
Perhaps she could've killed someone while defending from an attacker, or accidentally. Most likely during a Great Thief mission, or something.
Quote:
I would've liked for it to be handled without a personality change, so she could've tried to mislead Edgeworth's investigation to hide the truth about what she did most likely trying to create "the killer could be anyone" or "the death was complete accident" scenario, but... once accused, I can't imagine her going up against Edgeworth, so maybe someone could defend her, unwilling to believe she's the killer. Gumshoe or Ema, perhaps?
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About Athena, they kept stating she had a strong desire to win cases...but so does Phoenix and Apollo; after all, they want to defend their innocent clients. If anything, Athena should've been trying to work on saving Simon from day one, and they should've shared a LOT more time on screen for the last case to have any impact. As it is, she's written like a fanfic character: a young woman comes blazing into the agency and becomes the center of attention without trying. And she's just so special, u guise.
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Such was the case with me - I did predict he's in prison for killing Athena's mother, but until Case 3, I didn't think she believed in his innocence.
Last edited by Nearavex on Sat Aug 09, 2014 6:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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