Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Spoiler: PLvsPWAA
In DD, it felt like a huge cop-out since it was the motive of the culprit IMO.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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At first it was, "Yay! A new Ace Attorney game!" Then the afterglow wore off... Athena was shoehorned in and obnoxious as hell, the power of friendship was cringeworthy, the messed up writing... I won't bother going on.
Back to the trilogy and AAI2 for me.
Too lazy... hur hur.
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Namely, Edgeworth in the final case.
Spoiler: Or, rather, his motivation.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Pessimistic_Fool wrote:
One thing I haven't seen anybody mention is is a problem I have with one of the game's plot points.
Namely, Edgeworth in the final case.
Namely, Edgeworth in the final case.
Spoiler: Or, rather, his motivation.
This has been brought up before... but more in regards to Athena. But yeah, the whole DAotL plot was not thought out very well.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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There's just lots of stuff I find really questionable in the cutscenes regarding the writing. Phoenix says "It's for this very reason I've returned. Time to bring it to an end" and then he just hangs up. It's like it's written that way purely for the sake of epicness and to make things feel dramatic. It always rubbed me the wrong way, and seemingly like you guys said, Edgeworth's introduction also seems to be more about making a stylish entrance than being a part of the tone of the plot that precedes, or follows it.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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linkenski wrote:
It's like it's written that way purely for the sake of epicness and to make things feel dramatic. It always rubbed me the wrong way
Pretty much this.
When I go back to replay the cases, even the "true" dramatic cutscenes sometimes have me going, trying too hard, trying too hard.
Perhaps if they went back to the "linear case" format, they could keep better track of their plot?
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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This is all made worse by the fact that the cutscenes could've been used SOOOOO much better at other points. Whenever a the mystery is solved, how about a cutscene where we see the murderer commit the murder? A lot of flashback could've had cutscenes as well. Emotional moments in the game could've been done a lot better with animation instead of text
I guess it was really essential to spend $10,000 on Athena agreeing to defend someone in a case or throwing a police officer
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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The first is rather obvious; not only had attorneys done everything between forging evidence and murdering before, but we never really saw what was supposed to be the big overarching story. We got sort of close in 5-3, but Means just kept citing that the ends justified the means, and there really wasn't more to it.
The second one I'm surprised people don't talk about more. All of a sudden, you get your hands on a video tape which not only immediately should clear Blackquill of all charges, but also points out a very easily identifiable man literally wearing several clues that could give away his identity. Me and JesusMonroe debated whether or not Edgeworth had this tape in his possession for quite some time, and while I don't want to repeat that rather lengthy debate, I'll just quickly sum up my points as to why I think he had it: Firstly, nothing is otherwise stated in the game, and had Edgeworth not known about a potentially important tape, he would've made damn sure to watch it the moment he heard about it. Secondly, Edgeworth allegedly worked hard on freeing Blackquill, but he must've had a reason for assuming he was innocent, and the tape would've explained why he trusted Simon so much.
Like I said, we had a long debate regarding this which I'm not too eager on repeating, but the fact remains that there's a video tape where both Simon and The Phantom are captured, yet it's not until much later that the idea of watching the rest of the tape comes up, and then they all of a sudden discover footage of the supposedly mysterious Phantom and several hints that could help finding him.
It's sort of like the Mass Effect trilogy. The ending was so bad that it's pretty much the only thing I can remember.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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I don't actually think 5-5 is that bad. My main gripe is that the final trial feels incredibly forced and the ending feels like the game just doesn't give a shit anymore and drops the ball, but the mystery and build-up until the trial starts felt nice even if it still fits into the whole "1-5 ripoff" claim. It's definitely more enjoyable to sit through than I-5, no contest.
But when the final culprit is already so weak and the answers as a whole don't really feel all that satisfying, I think that critizising the contrivedness of the video tape and other things related to clue-finding and puzzle solving are secondary issues. There isn't really any deeper meaning to the plot of DD and that's pretty much where it ends for me. If that stuff was in check I would care more about the other stuff not adding up logically, but when there's no point to the story then I think that is the primary reason why the writing fails.
TdaoTL is the true reason why DD just fails in regards to storytelling. The new characters, the characterization being better than in AAI or AAI2, the mysteries in the filler cases etc. those are the things I thought made DD overall enjoyable, but the plot is a wasted opportunity.
5-S is close to be the salvation of the entire game though, but I recently replayed it and I just can't seem to like it when at the very end it becomes too clear how much of a Big Top ripoff the plot is. It is a good plot, but I can't give it any credit when it blatantly reuses an earlier plot. It feels cheap.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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I have no problem with plot devices being reused as long as it's done better than it was the first time around.
As for Athena, I found her no more or less enjoyable than the other sidekicks. Her ability was kind of cheesy, but other than that, she was fine. Apollo was actually my favorite of the sidekicks though. His acerbic wit was a refreshing change of pace from the cloudcuckoolanders we're normally teamed up with.
In terms of ranking the sidekicks, I'm gonna have to say Maya = Apollo > Ema > Athena > Trucy (nothing wrong with her, she's just a little bland compared to the others) > Kay (not really a fan of her, she's okay, but she doesn't really fit)
I agree that the dark age of the law was poorly thought out. It seemed like it was just some kind of fancy garnish to make the plot appear more interesting, but it really didn't complement the game's flavor. As a matter of fact, it was a little off-putting. Apollo Justice seemed to do a better job in this regard, but since this game didn't bother picking up on that plot thread, it suffered as a result.
I did thoroughly enjoy the plot twist at the end. I might not enjoy it as much on a subsequent playthrough, since I'll be looking at it in more detail then, but I liked it the first time around. The fridge logic of Edgeworth trying to save Blackquill in the manner that he did was poorly done though. If they could have done away with the whole hostage plot, they could have started Blackquill's trial as a last minute appeal, and a guilty verdict would lead to Blackquill's immediate execution. Gives the player enough of an emotional incentive, and it avoids those pesky logic holes.
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As for assistants, I'd probably say Ema>Kay=Pearl>Trucy>Apollo>Maya>Athena. I'm sticking to 1-5's incarnation of Ema, though. Due to AJ, I prefer Kay as a character more. Also, if I took Maya as an assistant from ONLY the first game, then she's on par with Kay and Pearl. I really loved Ema in Rise from the Ashes so it'll be hard to top her. She and Gant made the case for me
To be honest, though, I kind of enjoy all the assistants. Same can be said for the Prosecutors. And while I do have problems with each game, I do enjoy each and every one. You can call me a fanboy for that, but I'm fine with it since I can have the most fun with more of the games
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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linkenski wrote:
I wouldn't really compare the plot of DD to Mass Effect, or at least Mass Effect 3 in terms of quality. Both were quite weak throughout and the endings leave a lot to be desired (though I'd argue DD's ending doesn't ruin the games that preceded it or the future of the franchise) but it's like comparing apples to oranges
I don't actually think 5-5 is that bad. My main gripe is that the final trial feels incredibly forced and the ending feels like the game just doesn't give a shit anymore and drops the ball, but the mystery and build-up until the trial starts felt nice even if it still fits into the whole "1-5 ripoff" claim. It's definitely more enjoyable to sit through than I-5, no contest.
But when the final culprit is already so weak and the answers as a whole don't really feel all that satisfying, I think that critizising the contrivedness of the video tape and other things related to clue-finding and puzzle solving are secondary issues. There isn't really any deeper meaning to the plot of DD and that's pretty much where it ends for me. If that stuff was in check I would care more about the other stuff not adding up logically, but when there's no point to the story then I think that is the primary reason why the writing fails.
TdaoTL is the true reason why DD just fails in regards to storytelling. The new characters, the characterization being better than in AAI or AAI2, the mysteries in the filler cases etc. those are the things I thought made DD overall enjoyable, but the plot is a wasted opportunity.
5-S is close to be the salvation of the entire game though, but I recently replayed it and I just can't seem to like it when at the very end it becomes too clear how much of a Big Top ripoff the plot is. It is a good plot, but I can't give it any credit when it blatantly reuses an earlier plot. It feels cheap.
I don't actually think 5-5 is that bad. My main gripe is that the final trial feels incredibly forced and the ending feels like the game just doesn't give a shit anymore and drops the ball, but the mystery and build-up until the trial starts felt nice even if it still fits into the whole "1-5 ripoff" claim. It's definitely more enjoyable to sit through than I-5, no contest.
But when the final culprit is already so weak and the answers as a whole don't really feel all that satisfying, I think that critizising the contrivedness of the video tape and other things related to clue-finding and puzzle solving are secondary issues. There isn't really any deeper meaning to the plot of DD and that's pretty much where it ends for me. If that stuff was in check I would care more about the other stuff not adding up logically, but when there's no point to the story then I think that is the primary reason why the writing fails.
TdaoTL is the true reason why DD just fails in regards to storytelling. The new characters, the characterization being better than in AAI or AAI2, the mysteries in the filler cases etc. those are the things I thought made DD overall enjoyable, but the plot is a wasted opportunity.
5-S is close to be the salvation of the entire game though, but I recently replayed it and I just can't seem to like it when at the very end it becomes too clear how much of a Big Top ripoff the plot is. It is a good plot, but I can't give it any credit when it blatantly reuses an earlier plot. It feels cheap.
I'm not comparing the two games, I'm saying that when all is said and done, the thing that sticks out the most is the godawful final case, similar to how the first thing that comes to mind when thinking about Mass Effect is the objectively bad ending.
Sure, I'm the first person to agree that pretty much every single thing in 5-5 is bad. However, the tape is probably the biggest insult to an audience since Dragon Age II. Nobody considered ever watching the entirety of the recording, which would've helped - or maybe even straight up led to - the actual killer. It's a plot device that shouldn't have existed in the first place.
Of course there are many more contributing factors as to why 5-5 is the worst Ace Attorney case in the franchise. The painfully obvious plot twist which was, just in case you didn't already have your suspicions, shoved into your face about as subtly as a house on fire filled with people burning to death.
Then there's the matter of copying 1-5, Athena being allowed to use her special power only she can use when she's not only the defendant but also when the people who have lost all faith in the legal system start complaining, the horribly written kidnapping incident, Phoenix acting like a complete rookie in court, Apollo's poorly-handled subplot which just showed us he doesn't have any spine to speak of since he backed down as soon as Phoenix presented a very unlikely possibility that, if I recall correctly, was never even proven.
I could go on, but I think you get the picture.
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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linkenski wrote:
5-S is close to be the salvation of the entire game though, but I recently replayed it and I just can't seem to like it when at the very end it becomes too clear how much of a Big Top ripoff the plot is. It is a good plot, but I can't give it any credit when it blatantly reuses an earlier plot. It feels cheap.
I mentioned this before, but 2-3 was already a blatant rip-off of "The Leopard Man's Story." At least 5-DLC was borrowing from it's own franchise
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Thane wrote:
Then there's the matter of copying 1-5, Athena being allowed to use her special power only she can use when she's not only the defendant but also when the people who have lost all faith in the legal system start complaining, the horribly written kidnapping incident, Phoenix acting like a complete rookie in court, Apollo's poorly-handled subplot which just showed us he doesn't have any spine to speak of since he backed down as soon as Phoenix presented a very unlikely possibility that, if I recall correctly, was never even proven.
Well, technically Phoenix wasn't prevented from blackmailing the decisive witness on his own trial either. I think it's just that the game is of the stance that criminals aren't there for protagonists to go easy with them.
You forgot the mental state in which Phoenix was - Trucy was kidnapped, Apollo left agency, Athena is accused - of course he wouldn't feel too confident, when things were going this way.
Spine? It was said that Apollo wanted to believe in her, he just couldn't find any possibility otherwise - he just needed a possibility, there's nothing wrong in him backing down once it was provided.
I also already explained the matter with the recording.
I won't disagree that some things were handled badly, but that doesn't mean there aren't explanations.
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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JesusMonroe wrote:
linkenski wrote:
5-S is close to be the salvation of the entire game though, but I recently replayed it and I just can't seem to like it when at the very end it becomes too clear how much of a Big Top ripoff the plot is. It is a good plot, but I can't give it any credit when it blatantly reuses an earlier plot. It feels cheap.
I mentioned this before, but 2-3 was already a blatant rip-off of "The Leopard Man's Story." At least 5-DLC was borrowing from it's own franchise
Okay, but at least it wasn't just a complete rehash within the same franchise. I think plagiarism is bad, and I'm not gonna go on that tangent again, but I feel like having two cases that are the same if you just replace all characters and names with blanks, is completely lazy. It's just the fact that when I played the DLC case, and twice now, I felt genuinely disappointed at the final confession because it's just so blatantly similar and obvious that the writer just took the plot from Big Top and reused it.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Nearavex wrote:
Spine? It was said that Apollo wanted to believe in her, he just couldn't find any possibility otherwise - he just needed a possibility, there's nothing wrong in him backing down once it was provided.
I think it was eventually proven, too. Once Fulbright confessed he was the Phantom's accomplice, he said the Phantom used the emergency ladder
There are pretty much two possibilities
1. Athena escaped in the space museum
2. The culprit used the moving space museum to leap onto the ladder. The presence of leaves shows the door was open while it was roving. The only person who could make the leap would be the Phantom
Despite how unlikely number 2 is, it creates a reasonable doubt for Apollo and the Judge. Apollo is able to stand by Wright and Athena and the Judge can prolong the trial to explore the new possibility. Athena isn't declared not guilty until Fulbright confesses that the Phantom used the emergency ladder
Plus, as I mentioned before, when Athena uses her special power, she's not the defendant anymore. The court has already acknowledged her innocence. A game over at this part just results in a bad end where Athena is declared not guilty and the Phantom gets away
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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sumguy28 wrote:
As far as "5-5 is just 1-5" goes, I think I would have preferred it if Athena was actually guilty of killing her mother. At least then I could claim 5-5 had the guts to take a risk. The one thing that kept bothering me throughout 5-5 was Phoenix's constant "believe in your client, no matter what" perspective. I know we already had a guilty defendant, but if only one defendant was guilty, then what was the point of that?
I think I'll have to disagree here. Sure, we could use another guilty defendant with a slightly different moral lesson (since 2-4 had to take the hostage route to make it work). However, Athena shouldn't have been the one, at least not yet in this series. It'd leave the game on a sour note; not only would she be arrested, Phoenix would have failed to defend a protegee of his after all the help she asked of him. Whether or not you can take their mentor-student relationship seriously, in any case, this is not the way to end a game featuring Nick's return to law. Not to mention, it'd be pointless to introduce this new awesome sidekick, only to throw her away. And what about the introduction of psychological analysis in this game? It may not be the most accurate portrayal ever, but the writers made good headway by including something different in this huge field of law. If anything, that gimmick is going to return anyway, so it's baaad to get rid of the one character who uses it. They'd have to introduce yet another sidekick with a super special technique that only she'd know and, heh heh, no. No clones, please. At least Maya and Ema are on opposite sides of the realism-to-fantasy scale.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Nearavex wrote:
Thane wrote:
Then there's the matter of copying 1-5, Athena being allowed to use her special power only she can use when she's not only the defendant but also when the people who have lost all faith in the legal system start complaining, the horribly written kidnapping incident, Phoenix acting like a complete rookie in court, Apollo's poorly-handled subplot which just showed us he doesn't have any spine to speak of since he backed down as soon as Phoenix presented a very unlikely possibility that, if I recall correctly, was never even proven.
Well, technically Phoenix wasn't prevented from blackmailing the decisive witness on his own trial either. I think it's just that the game is of the stance that criminals aren't there for protagonists to go easy with them.
You forgot the mental state in which Phoenix was - Trucy was kidnapped, Apollo left agency, Athena is accused - of course he wouldn't feel too confident, when things were going this way.
Spine? It was said that Apollo wanted to believe in her, he just couldn't find any possibility otherwise - he just needed a possibility, there's nothing wrong in him backing down once it was provided.
I also already explained the matter with the recording.
I won't disagree that some things were handled badly, but that doesn't mean there aren't explanations.
Sorry, but I'm not buying it. Phoenix's "mental state" is a non-issue here, since he just reverted back to being a nervous newbie when facing Edgeworth. Maybe the new team did it because of nostalgia, or maybe they just thought it'd be fun to watch Phoenix squirm, but he most certainly didn't act that way because of stress. Even if that were what they were going for, it would've been abysmally portrayed.
There is everything wrong with Apollo backing down when he did. First of all, there's no real build-up to him confronting Phoenix in court. We see him leave in a cutscene several cases back, then once more in the Space Center, and then he charges in. We assumed he'd take matters into his own hands and do some real detective work - which he did to a certain extent - but then he backs down because Phoenix offers a possibility he can't prove at that time and because he wants to believe in the power of friendship. Instead of standing on his own two feet as a character he crawls to Phoenix and hopes he can help him in the least likeable way possible.
As for proof of the Phantom's involvement: when the Phantom was called into court, what did they have to go on other than Phoenix's word, the fact that there is a man who doesn't feel fear (oh god why) and the fact that the Phantom ordered the ladders to be lowered? Nothing. Yet Apollo accepts it anyway. That's the extent of Apollo's subplot.
You explained the recording? Would you mind repeating what you said? I highly doubt you could clear up that poor excuse of evidence where JesusMonroe could not convince me in a much lengthier debate.
@JesusMonroe, technically, she's still the defendant since the trial ends with her returning to the stand and officially being declared innocent; nothing was over when she used her sorcery. However, even if we ignore that part, it still shouldn't have been allowed, and the usage of the Mood Matrix makes no sense in the context of the overarching story, poorly written though it may be.
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Nearavex wrote:
Well, the only thing said tape proves is that there was an injured employee in the area. Not sure if that would be much use in Blackquill's own trial without context.
This, really. We see the phantom, but what everyone else sees and saw at the time was an injured employee.
It's useful only in context of Athena stabbing him in the hand, which was not known to anyone until that moment.
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Nearavex wrote:
Nearavex wrote:
Well, the only thing said tape proves is that there was an injured employee in the area. Not sure if that would be much use in Blackquill's own trial without context.
This, really. We see the phantom, but what everyone else sees and saw at the time was an injured employee.
It's useful only in context of Athena stabbing him in the hand, which was not known to anyone until that moment.
That "employee" was also wearing a jacket that had been cut by Athena's first stabbing attempt. This same jacket belonged to Metis Cykes and was put on display in the Space Museum. Looks like nobody picked up on that in the first trial.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Nearavex wrote:
Nearavex wrote:
Well, the only thing said tape proves is that there was an injured employee in the area. Not sure if that would be much use in Blackquill's own trial without context.
This, really. We see the phantom, but what everyone else sees and saw at the time was an injured employee.
It's useful only in context of Athena stabbing him in the hand, which was not known to anyone until that moment.
No, that won't cut it.
No one until that point had even considered watching the entirety of the tape and are completely shocked when they see the Phantom, which is beyond stupid. Not only that, but he's wearing a distinguishable jacket, is injured and is clearly skulking about. Now, the last part is a bit vague and should rightly not be used in court (not even in the Ace Attorney universe, although it could point Phoenix and co in the right direction), however, he's still wearing a jacket they can identify, and a wound Athena remembers causing. All this, and the man was supposedly impossible to find, and no one had a clue who he was? And Edgeworth of all people hadn't watched the entire tape? And how did the tape survive a supposed government cover up? Did the ones responsible even watch the tape?
There's too much wrong with one piece of evidence. Nothing about it makes sense, it's painfully poorly implemented since it raises far too many questions, and it makes it too easy to identify the Phantom.
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There was a government cover-up. I know you don't want that theory to fly, but it clears up literally every contradiction
Why was Simon arrested even though the Phantom was caught on tape? The government was too embarrassed that they allowed their all-important space program to crumble at the hands of a spy. They couldn't catch the spy so Simon was an easy enough scapegoat
Why did the tape survive the government coverup? Here's another question. Why didn't Nixon destroy the tapes from the Watergate scandal? Destroying evidence (that might not even be discovered) would be an even bigger scandal and a huge felony. Nobody wants that blood on their hands and nobody wants to be the government scapegoat. In AA, the government simply locked the tape away until they were forced to give it up (IRL, the Supreme Court. In AA, a hostage situation)
Also, before you say I'm using my headcanon as evidence, this is all stated by Cosmos in the game
Why didn't Edgeworth look at the tape? The tape isn't presented as evidence until during the trial (and the government was forced to give it up due to the hostage crisis). Edgeworth was assigned to the trial not even an hour ago. He wasn't about to get finnicky and watch 12 hours of footage (even calling a recess) because a hostage situation was going on and he's not going to provoke Aura. Edgeworth wasn't aware of the government coverup the same way Phoenix was, so he could've easily decided that nothing important was on the tape. He wouldn't press the issue and risk innocent lives this way
Thane wrote:
@JesusMonroe, technically, she's still the defendant since the trial ends with her returning to the stand and officially being declared innocent; nothing was over when she used her sorcery. However, even if we ignore that part, it still shouldn't have been allowed, and the usage of the Mood Matrix makes no sense in the context of the overarching story, poorly written though it may be.
It does resolve part of the complaint, though. It's no longer a murder suspect trying to pin the blame on someone else. It's somebody whose innocence the court has acknowledged trying to pin the blame on someone else. I'm not talking about whether or not people agreed with the Mood Matrix, but the gallery had no reason to doubt Athena. She stopped the trial from declaring her not guilty verdict to go against the Phantom
Last edited by JesusMonroe on Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Thane wrote:
however, he's still wearing a jacket they can identify, and a wound Athena remembers causing
Except she doesn't remember causing the wound, as a result of her trauma, shown by her black psyche locks, which only Phoenix can see. The rest of your argument still stands, though.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
The law is full of contradictions.
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"Follow Your heart out of the darkness! Stand up and rise from the ashes! Back to the start, far from the madness. Come alive again! Break off the chains of hesitation! Your voice will be your salvation! Look to the light of liberation waiting at the end!"
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Ucha Nekome wrote:
The plot twist at the end was enough to make my head explode. I don't think there was a single person who saw that coming.
...Which twist, exactly?
(I felt a lot of the 'twists' were pretty predictable, so...)Quote:
Though I do admit I understand SOME points of view people need to remember that this is a world where spirit mediums transform into full-body doubles of the dead person, you can see the chains around a person's heart with spirit power, and people's eyes can "super focus" on peoples weird twitching habits. So why is it so unbelievable that a person can hear the faint emotional ques in a person's voice?
This has already been argued to death in a certain thread, but to sum it up a bit, the Fey powers have relatively clear rules, plenty of lore, and a story of the origin of the powers and where they came from. While we don't know the exact origin of the Gramarye powers, we know they're hereditary, and they gave a pseudo-scientific explanation of how the mechanism works. For Athena... we're told she has special hearing and can "hear the voice of the heart," and that's it. No explanation of how exactly it works, or where it came from, or anything. While there are indeed special powers in the AA-verse, the creators made a 'place' for the other ones in terms of lore, origin, and mechanism. Athena's power basically just exists in a vacuum--she has her powers just because, and they work just because.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Ucha Nekome wrote:
OK I'm gonna say this...I loved DD.
I loved it, too. I like all the games in the series. I just think it's a pretty weak entry
Bad Player wrote:
...Which twist, exactly? (I felt a lot of the 'twists' were pretty predictable, so...)
(I felt a lot of the 'twists' were pretty predictable, so...)The Fulbright thing would be my guess
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Bad Player wrote:
Ucha Nekome wrote:
The plot twist at the end was enough to make my head explode. I don't think there was a single person who saw that coming.
...Which twist, exactly?
(I felt a lot of the 'twists' were pretty predictable, so...)Quote:
Though I do admit I understand SOME points of view people need to remember that this is a world where spirit mediums transform into full-body doubles of the dead person, you can see the chains around a person's heart with spirit power, and people's eyes can "super focus" on peoples weird twitching habits. So why is it so unbelievable that a person can hear the faint emotional ques in a person's voice?
This has already been argued to death in a certain thread, but to sum it up a bit, the Fey powers have relatively clear rules, plenty of lore, and a story of the origin of the powers and where they came from. While we don't know the exact origin of the Gramarye powers, we know they're hereditary, and they gave a pseudo-scientific explanation of how the mechanism works. For Athena... we're told she has special hearing and can "hear the voice of the heart," and that's it. No explanation of how exactly it works, or where it came from, or anything. While there are indeed special powers in the AA-verse, the creators made a 'place' for the other ones in terms of lore, origin, and mechanism. Athena's power basically just exists in a vacuum--she has her powers just because, and they work just because.
I know you, and I know your stance. So I feel arguing with you would be like arguing with a wall. So I'm gonna ignore your post completely. Not that I don't respect your opinion, I just feel as if you have too much hate for this game I don't feel like discussing it with you. While it's obvious you didn't enjoy the game, I did so let's leave it at that.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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I mean, this is a forum for discussion. Why would you post something if you didn't want others to read/respond to it? He's not even one of those users who's biased against Yamazaki. He just doesn't hates a lot of what Dual Destinies offers
Though, I know he hates meta-discussions, too, so maybe I shouldn't have said anything
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Didn't you just acknowledge his post?
I mean, this is a forum for discussion. Why would you post something if you didn't want others to read/respond to it? He's not even one of those users who's biased against Yamazaki. He just doesn't hates a lot of what Dual Destinies offers
Though, I know he hates meta-discussions, too, so maybe I shouldn't have said anything
I mean, this is a forum for discussion. Why would you post something if you didn't want others to read/respond to it? He's not even one of those users who's biased against Yamazaki. He just doesn't hates a lot of what Dual Destinies offers
Though, I know he hates meta-discussions, too, so maybe I shouldn't have said anything
PREPARE TO FEEL THE WRATH OF MY BANHAMMER
raaaaaaaaaawr(Actually I wasn't going to reply, but I couldn't help but immortalize your "doesn't hates" forever. (So much that I was redundant by saying both "immortalize" and "forever."))
@Ucha: I'll admit you said it in probably the nicest way possible, but there isn't really much of a reason to make a post just saying that you're going to ignore some other post xP If you don't want to engage in a discussion... just don't reply.
MBr wrote:
Athena has sensitive hearing because she was born with it. It's called Sensory Processing Disorder, and can be treated with headphones, like they did in the game.
Sensory Processing Disorder doesn't magically let you know what emotion someone is feeling. It's obviously what Athena's powers were based on, but Athena's powers go way beyond SPO. And even if that is the explanation, it doesn't change the fact that it's never explained in-game.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Bad Player wrote:
(Actually I wasn't going to reply, but I couldn't help but immortalize your "doesn't hates" forever.
It was originally "doesn't like" but then changed to "hates." Or maybe it was the other way around
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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A cutscene with everyone coming together in a sequence reminiscent of Captain Planet's theme song.
"With your powers combined, I am
Cue Athena's theme and Widget loading that familiar screen, but with sweeping camera angles! Yeah! And that's the only thing that's different from the usual animation.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Simple
There was a government cover-up. I know you don't want that theory to fly, but it clears up literally every contradiction
Why was Simon arrested even though the Phantom was caught on tape? The government was too embarrassed that they allowed their all-important space program to crumble at the hands of a spy. They couldn't catch the spy so Simon was an easy enough scapegoat
Why did the tape survive the government coverup? Here's another question. Why didn't Nixon destroy the tapes from the Watergate scandal? Destroying evidence (that might not even be discovered) would be an even bigger scandal and a huge felony. Nobody wants that blood on their hands and nobody wants to be the government scapegoat. In AA, the government simply locked the tape away until they were forced to give it up (IRL, the Supreme Court. In AA, a hostage situation)
Also, before you say I'm using my headcanon as evidence, this is all stated by Cosmos in the game
Why didn't Edgeworth look at the tape? The tape isn't presented as evidence until during the trial (and the government was forced to give it up due to the hostage crisis). Edgeworth was assigned to the trial not even an hour ago. He wasn't about to get finnicky and watch 12 hours of footage (even calling a recess) because a hostage situation was going on and he's not going to provoke Aura. Edgeworth wasn't aware of the government coverup the same way Phoenix was, so he could've easily decided that nothing important was on the tape. He wouldn't press the issue and risk innocent lives this way
It does resolve part of the complaint, though. It's no longer a murder suspect trying to pin the blame on someone else. It's somebody whose innocence the court has acknowledged trying to pin the blame on someone else. I'm not talking about whether or not people agreed with the Mood Matrix, but the gallery had no reason to doubt Athena. She stopped the trial from declaring her not guilty verdict to go against the Phantom
There was a government cover-up. I know you don't want that theory to fly, but it clears up literally every contradiction
Why was Simon arrested even though the Phantom was caught on tape? The government was too embarrassed that they allowed their all-important space program to crumble at the hands of a spy. They couldn't catch the spy so Simon was an easy enough scapegoat
Why did the tape survive the government coverup? Here's another question. Why didn't Nixon destroy the tapes from the Watergate scandal? Destroying evidence (that might not even be discovered) would be an even bigger scandal and a huge felony. Nobody wants that blood on their hands and nobody wants to be the government scapegoat. In AA, the government simply locked the tape away until they were forced to give it up (IRL, the Supreme Court. In AA, a hostage situation)
Also, before you say I'm using my headcanon as evidence, this is all stated by Cosmos in the game
Why didn't Edgeworth look at the tape? The tape isn't presented as evidence until during the trial (and the government was forced to give it up due to the hostage crisis). Edgeworth was assigned to the trial not even an hour ago. He wasn't about to get finnicky and watch 12 hours of footage (even calling a recess) because a hostage situation was going on and he's not going to provoke Aura. Edgeworth wasn't aware of the government coverup the same way Phoenix was, so he could've easily decided that nothing important was on the tape. He wouldn't press the issue and risk innocent lives this way
Thane wrote:
@JesusMonroe, technically, she's still the defendant since the trial ends with her returning to the stand and officially being declared innocent; nothing was over when she used her sorcery. However, even if we ignore that part, it still shouldn't have been allowed, and the usage of the Mood Matrix makes no sense in the context of the overarching story, poorly written though it may be.
It does resolve part of the complaint, though. It's no longer a murder suspect trying to pin the blame on someone else. It's somebody whose innocence the court has acknowledged trying to pin the blame on someone else. I'm not talking about whether or not people agreed with the Mood Matrix, but the gallery had no reason to doubt Athena. She stopped the trial from declaring her not guilty verdict to go against the Phantom
No. It only raises more questions. Why would the video tape be handed over just because of a hostage situation, if releasing it meant erasing the seven years of cover-up? And who released it? We have nothing to go on besides Cosmos's word regarding the cover-up, which leads us to yet another case of "tell, dont show". Why wouldn't they use the tape to try and find the man with the murdered woman's jacket on? Did even they not watch all of the footage? Why didn't they destroy the tape if they wanted to cover things up so badly?
It just makes no sense, no matter what angle you look at it from. I'm not trying to blindly hate on something, but this tape just isn't a good piece of evidence in regards to what it shows and what, for instance, Cosmos tells us.
@Ucha Nekome, you mean to tell me you didn't predict the Phantom's identity? How? Even if you didn't have any suspicions about him before the end of the fourth trial, the beginning of the fifth has him acting in a way that should make everyone weary of him. At least, that's what I thought.
Once again, regarding her sorcery, it may be based on something that exists in real life, but her hearing extends far beyond that. Nobody can hear what someone feels. And even if the game doesn't care how silly her powers are it doesn't mean the audience won't care. Her powers are barely explained and actively work against restoring faith in the legal system. And before you bring spirit channeling up, know that I never particularly enjoyed that, either.
Apollo was not fine in this game, if you'll pardon the pun. I've said numerous times that I like the fact that they tried working on his backstory so we know he didn't live in a void before becoming Phoenix's protégée. However, that's not nearly enough.
He leaves the agency to do his own thing - a good thing, mind you - in the beginning of the game, and we're lead to believe something dramatic has happened. And sure, his friend died, but the real reason he left is because he started doubting Athena's innocence, and this is where everything goes sour. He's featured in one scene in the final case before his "dramatic" confrontation with Phoenix, and what is it about? His doubts regarding Athena, and how he wants to trust her again. His subplot was in the least interesting way directly connected to Athena, and what we assumed was to be Apollo's moment of badassery just ended up being him crawling to Phoenix wanting him to show him the vaguest possibility that she didn't do it. Why? All of that righteous anger and potential conflict and character development just thrown away, and then forgotten about in the next five minutes.
And please refrain from replies such as those to Bad Player. When you post on a forum, you have to accept that your arguments and opinions are going to be challenged; that's what it's all about. Acting like that does very little for you or the current discussion.
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Bad Player wrote:
Sensory Processing Disorder doesn't magically let you know what emotion someone is feeling. It's obviously what Athena's powers were based on, but Athena's powers go way beyond SPO. And even if that is the explanation, it doesn't change the fact that it's never explained in-game.
Except, one can hear the tone of someone's voice and tell whether they're happy or sad - or sometimes be able to tell if they're forcing it. When it comes to the single, strong emotions, she can pick those up, but when it gets complicated, she actually hears just "noise" without the Mood Matrix, for all I remember from the game.
I think her "magical power" is Sensory Processing Disorder too, with some additional empathy and psychological knowledge.
---
Thane wrote:
No. It only raises more questions. Why would the video tape be handed over just because of a hostage situation, if releasing it meant erasing the seven years of cover-up? And who released it? We have nothing to go on besides Cosmos's word regarding the cover-up, which leads us to yet another case of "tell, dont show". Why wouldn't they use the tape to try and find the man with the murdered woman's jacket on? Did even they not watch all of the footage? Why didn't they destroy the tape if they wanted to cover things up so badly?
Thane, it raises more already answered questions:
JesusMonroe wrote:
Why did the tape survive the government coverup? Here's another question. Why didn't Nixon destroy the tapes from the Watergate scandal? Destroying evidence (that might not even be discovered) would be an even bigger scandal and a huge felony. Nobody wants that blood on their hands and nobody wants to be the government scapegoat. In AA, the government simply locked the tape away until they were forced to give it up (IRL, the Supreme Court. In AA, a hostage situation)
Last edited by Nearavex on Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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And a lot of people were surprised by the Fulbright twist. Just because you weren't surprised doesn't mean it was obvious. Looking at the games objectively, we get was less clues that Fulbright is the murderer than we did for any other final villain in the series besides maybe GK2's
Last edited by JesusMonroe on Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Nearavex wrote:
I think her "magical power" is Sensory Processing Disorder too, with some additional empathy and psychological knowledge.
Yeah, you think. You can come up with the most elegant and comprehensive theory about it in the world, and it will never be more than a theory because the game never explains the origin or mechanism of Athena's power. (Beyond the shallow and cursory "she was born with it and hears people's emotions.")
Part of me thinks the worst part is that they had the perfect opportunity to do it, by sticking it in Metis' research papers in the investigation for the final case.
JesusMonroe wrote:
And what do you mean "all we have is Cosmos' word?" His word is the truth.
I think Thane's point wasn't that Cosmos' word isn't trustworthy, but that it's another instance of DD's tell-don't-show syndrome, which has caused all these questions about the cover-up and video tape not be answered.
JesusMonroe wrote:
And a lot of people were surprised by the Fulbright twist. Just because you weren't surprised doesn't mean it was obvious. Looking at the games subjectively, we get was less clues that Fulbright is the murderer than we did for any other final villain in the series besides maybe GK2's
Just because Fulbright is the (second) least obvious final villain doesn't mean he wasn't obvious :P And yeah, I know plenty of people were shocked by it. But I also know plenty of people weren't.
Spoiler: GK2
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Bad Player wrote:
Yeah, you think. You can come up with the most elegant and comprehensive theory about it in the world, and it will never be more than a theory because the game never explains the origin or mechanism of Athena's power. (Beyond the shallow and cursory "she was born with it and hears people's emotions.")
Why are you talking like thinking that way is a bad thing, really?
She is described as having sensitive hearing and they do show that (so don't go repeating "tell-don't-show syndrome" in this case), such as opening of the door in the Tenma Taro chamber, so what I "think" does have a lot of canon support.I kinda dislike how you strike down a realistic explanation without having one yourself just to keep complaining. Sorry for the tone of this post, I'm just a bit annoyed.
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