Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Bad Player wrote:
I think Thane's point wasn't that Cosmos' word isn't trustworthy, but that it's another instance of DD's tell-don't-show syndrome, which has caused all these questions about the cover-up and video tape not be answered.
Just because Fulbright is the (second) least obvious final villain doesn't mean he wasn't obvious :P And yeah, I know plenty of people were shocked by it. But I also know plenty of people weren't.
Just because Fulbright is the (second) least obvious final villain doesn't mean he wasn't obvious :P And yeah, I know plenty of people were shocked by it. But I also know plenty of people weren't.
Spoiler: GK2
Regardless of the tell, don't show syndrome, we were told an answer. It seems pointless to ignore it. How could DD have shown a solution with the tape?
I know Fulbright has a multitude of problems as the villain, but Thane saying he was as obvious as a house full of burning children seems like an illegitimate complaint. It feels more like, "Hm. I hate 5-5. People so say the twist in 5-5 was unexpected. Instead of saying that's a good quality of the case, I'm going to say it's the least subtle twist in the series and take that good merit from the case"
I just don't see how Fulbright was an obvious villain when a lot of fans were duped and the writing makes it so Fulbright frequently does things that a villain shouldn't do
(And I meant objectively, not subjectively
I really need to start proofreading my posts)
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Nearavex wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
Yeah, you think. You can come up with the most elegant and comprehensive theory about it in the world, and it will never be more than a theory because the game never explains the origin or mechanism of Athena's power. (Beyond the shallow and cursory "she was born with it and hears people's emotions.")
Why are you talking like thinking that way is a bad thing, really?
She is described as having sensitive hearing and they do show that (so don't go repeating "tell-don't-show syndrome" in this case), such as opening of the door in the Tenma Taro chamber, so what I "think" does have a lot of canon support.I accept Athena has sensitive hearing. I don't accept that her sensitive hearing allows her to magically know exactly what someone is feeling.
Nearavex wrote:
I kinda dislike how you strike down a realistic explanation without having one yourself just to keep complaining.
You're kinda missing the entire point of this complaint. I'm not complaining that there's absolutely no explanation possible, but that the games don't flesh out Athena's powers with backstory and mechanism in the same way as the Fey spirit powers and Polly's perceive.
JesusMonroe wrote:
How could DD have shown a solution with the tape?
By restructuring the mystery so it didn't have the tape in the first place
(No matter how you chalk it up, there's still some degree of silliness of having the answer right there on tape for all these years with nobody noticing.)
Quote:
I know Fulbright has a multitude of problems as the villain, but Thane saying he was as obvious as a house full of burning children seems like an illegitimate complaint. It feels more like, "Hm. I hate 5-5. People so say the twist in 5-5 was unexpected. Instead of saying that's a good quality of the case, I'm going to say it's the least subtle twist in the series and take that good merit from the case"
I just don't see how Fulbright was an obvious villain when a lot of fans were duped and the writing makes it so Fulbright frequently does things that a villain shouldn't do
I just don't see how Fulbright was an obvious villain when a lot of fans were duped and the writing makes it so Fulbright frequently does things that a villain shouldn't do
It's not like he was Means-level obvious, but if you want to flip your argument, how can you say he was subtle when plenty of people caught on? He wasn't as obvious as a usual AA villain, but he was nowhere near GK2-level. Honestly, I think the biggest problem was the lack of viable suspects. 5-5 introduced zero new characters. A dearth of new characters in final cases has been plaguing the series since AAI, and is something I'd really like to see changed.
You're also exaggerating what Thane said. Juuuust a little bit. And I think you're mixing the order up. It's not "I don't like 5-5, so I'm going to complain about the twist," but "I found the 'twist' totally predictable, so I don't like 5-5." (That's how it is for me (with plenty of other stuff besides the multitude of obvious 'twists'), and I assume it's the same for Thane.)
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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But since the government covered up the murder, it can easily be inferred that they did notice the Phantom on tape. Like Cosmos said, the government was embarrassed that a spy nearly brought them to their knees
I won't argue that Fulbright wasn't an immensely subtle twist, but it's definitely not children in a house on fire levels of unsubtle (also, Juniper, Aura, Starbuck, and Clay were popular candidates for the Phantom looking at the board. Though, I do agree I'd like to see more characters added in finale cases)
I'm not trying to change Thane's mind on 5-5. She's set on that. I just think some of the things she complains about are unreasonable or blown out of proportion. I saw a lot of the twists coming in 3-5 and a lot of the actions of characters were illogical, topped with an improbable scenario blanketing the case. Do I hate it? No. It's still a solid case and it did offer a lot of solid stuff
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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What I meant to say was that all we had to go on was Cosmos' story and nothing else. We have nothing else to go on, which is a recurring problem in this game, it continues to plague 5-5 and the video tape is the biggest offender. If we are to assume the magical recording was hidden by an unknown person, stashed away somewhere where Edgeworth didn't even know about it, then that raises even more questions like why Edgeworth would decide to try and free Blackquill; he's not the man to go by his gut feeling, so he must've had some proof, and his biggest lead by far would've been the tape.
We have been over this a long time ago in a different thread, and I think neither of us will yield, so continuing the debate may be stupid. I must also confess that I can't remember the finer details of Dual Destinies anymore, since I've had little desire to think about it let alone play it again.
As for 3-5, while not my favorite case in the series, can't be compared to 5-5, even if the pendulum thing is almost as silly as the video tape.
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Jumping on the comment against Nearvex for a second. Athena's powers could've been explained, but wouldn't that go against the "show, don't tell" thing!? I don't see how an explanation could've been made without a whole mess of expository dialogue
Just because you generally want to "show don't tell" doesn't mean you can never have exposition, especially for something like magic powers where there isn't really any way to explain how they work except through exposition :P Like I said, it wouldn't need to be a gigantic mess of exposition, just some research notes in Metis' lab.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Nearavex wrote:
I'm not sure, really, since we don't even know if Metis conducted any research on her in the first place - it was merely what Athena thought at first. For all we know, she just made the headphones to cure her from her problems.
The developers could have just... made it so. Considering Metis made those headphones along with Widget (and the Mood Matrix), I'd find it hard to believe if she didn't do any research at all, especially since Athena seemed to have magic powers in Metis' field of study. I think an explanation of Athena's powers (and ideally their origin, although I'm not sure how much there actually is to put there) somewhere would have been good, and the most natural place seems like Metis' laboratory. It would definitely be less out-of-place than in Nine-Tails Vale, or randomly explaining it to Juniper in the Detention Center or whatever.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Bad Player wrote:
Nearavex wrote:
I kinda dislike how you strike down a realistic explanation without having one yourself just to keep complaining.
You're kinda missing the entire point of this complaint. I'm not complaining that there's absolutely no explanation possible, but that the games don't flesh out Athena's powers with backstory and mechanism in the same way as the Fey spirit powers and Polly's perceive.
I didn't want to reply to this, but this kind of comment irks me a bit. The only difference between the explanation (or lack thereof) to Athena's magical hearing vs Maya's spirit powers or Apollo's perceiving ability is the factor of inheritance. Those two earned their superpowers through their lineage, so we can take that stuff for granted. However, if we were to ignore that, at least Maya's spirit powers have a cultural background in actual Japanese history. Apollo's still comes from left field, as interesting a mechanic it introduced. Granted, Athena's came from the outfield, but it's still can be paralleled to Apollo and Trucy's shticks.
Quote:
JesusMonroe wrote:
How could DD have shown a solution with the tape?
By restructuring the mystery so it didn't have the tape in the first place
(No matter how you chalk it up, there's still some degree of silliness of having the answer right there on tape for all these years with nobody noticing.)
Well, it was the most convenient way to tie up the loose ends of this mystery, so I'll give it that. As for why Edgeworth even bothered to save Blackquill, it does seem strange when you consider the two of them as strangers. Maybe the game was indiscreetly trying to show that they were actually much closer than we'd think? It's another case of tell-don't-show, but at least Blackquill referred to Edgeworth using a title that wasn't portrayed in the English. Samurai-based characters don't use the term 'danna' very lightly, and I doubt Edgeworth was the one to tell him to refer to him that way.
Thane wrote:
I must also confess that I can't remember the finer details of Dual Destinies anymore, since I've had little desire to think about it let alone play it again.
Not suggesting you should get back to it, but at least skimming through the case via a playthrough might help jog your memory and help you re-evaluate the case for what it is, rather than what it comes off as. It doesn't matter if you're not willing to return to this debate, but at least justify your experience of playing through it.
Bad Player wrote:
Nearavex wrote:
I'm not sure, really, since we don't even know if Metis conducted any research on her in the first place - it was merely what Athena thought at first. For all we know, she just made the headphones to cure her from her problems.
The developers could have just... made it so. Considering Metis made those headphones along with Widget (and the Mood Matrix), I'd find it hard to believe if she didn't do any research at all, especially since Athena seemed to have magic powers in Metis' field of study. I think an explanation of Athena's powers (and ideally their origin, although I'm not sure how much there actually is to put there) somewhere would have been good, and the most natural place seems like Metis' laboratory. It would definitely be less out-of-place than in Nine-Tails Vale, or randomly explaining it to Juniper in the Detention Center or whatever.
I'd say it's the only place, given that Athena never got the chance to investigate into the lab herself, so she wouldn't have known the best explanation for it. Perhaps the Phantom stole them. Perhaps Blackquill stole them as a memento. Whatever the reason, those research notes were missing from her desk, so there was nothing for Phoenix or Edgeworth to take a glance at.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
Nearavex wrote:
I kinda dislike how you strike down a realistic explanation without having one yourself just to keep complaining.
You're kinda missing the entire point of this complaint. I'm not complaining that there's absolutely no explanation possible, but that the games don't flesh out Athena's powers with backstory and mechanism in the same way as the Fey spirit powers and Polly's perceive.
I didn't want to reply to this, but this kind of comment irks me a bit. The only difference between the explanation (or lack thereof) to Athena's magical hearing vs Maya's spirit powers or Apollo's perceiving ability is the factor of inheritance. Those two earned their superpowers through their lineage, so we can take that stuff for granted. However, if we were to ignore that, at least Maya's spirit powers have a cultural background in actual Japanese history. Apollo's still comes from left field, as interesting a mechanic it introduced. Granted, Athena's came from the outfield, but it's still can be paralleled to Apollo and Trucy's shticks.
But Apollo and Trucy's powers are explained. They have hyper-empathy that subconsciously alerts them when someone else is nervous by causing them to become nervous themselves, and that tension can be consciously felt as a strain on the bracelet (for Apollo). They can then consciously find the origin of the tic through concentration and focus. It's also confirmed that it's hereditary.
We don't actually know how Athena got her powers; while the most likely explanation seems genetic, it could have resulted from a freak accident in Metis' lab. And we know what Athena's power do, but we don't know how they work, which are two distinct things. (All we get is that she can "hear the voices of the heart," which... isn't an explanation at all.)
So... I'm going to have to disagree, and say that there's more lacking from Athena's powers than the confirmation of inheritance.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Anyway, starting off an explanation with "hyper-empathy" is not quite convincing on its own. It's like explaining an egg hatches into a mutant chicken without first explaining where the egg came from.
Now if we consider what real life telepathic or paranormal activity has been reported before, that would just be figuring out where this fictional power took its inspiration from. That's something completely different.
I still say Athena's powers can be paralleled to theirs. We don't learn exactly how it works, but that's because the only person actively involved in such a discovery was killed. As to whether there would be someone else interested in investigating into her powers, well, that's not the purpose of this game's plot. If it comes up as something Athena wants to discover herself later, the writers have that freedom as well.
Meanwhile, the explanation behind Apollo's heightened sense is confusing in of itself. If he senses someone is nervous, he becomes nervous. Then why does it not happen all the time? Heck, his own nerves should have been going wild while Jinxie was literally shaking at the stand. Does he consciously - or heck, subconsciously - make a distinction that was never explained? Who knows.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
My memory about that's a little foggy. Could you point out when that was explained?
Spoiler: Space Saver
Rubia wrote:
-snip-
Yeah, the explanation behind Polly/Trucy's power isn't perfect or comprehensive, but it's a lot more than what we get for Athena's.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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linkenski wrote:
When it comes to the cuscenes, I have to say, I don't think they properly made them connect with the rest of the gameplay, and I always had the feeling that "someone else" made the cutscenes other than the actual writers for the game...
They gave me 4Kids vibes, personally.
Too lazy... hur hur.
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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I did not read much of the posts here since I didn't want to get spoilered too heavy.
The references and potshots are really great so far and I do really enjoy it.
Spoiler: 5-3 Spoiler
Spoiler: 5-3 Spoiler
It has been a while since I have played GS before GS5 but I can already say it's one of my all time favorites. Also prosecutor Blaquill seems to be pretty badass to me.
Regarding the cutscene thing: Sometimes the placing seems to be a bit awkward, but all in all I think they are a great addition to the game. Very well animated and good looking. I think the voices do also fit very well (though I have never heard the japanese originals).
Until now it's very thrilling and I hope the high standards won't break down in the next cases.
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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It was a really nice game, I liked the story, the music and Fulbright.
But as a lot of people say, it was quite easy sometimes (Psyche-Locks, bracelet, trial questions etc). Also, I was sad that Trucy had so small role. And Pearl too (but at least she was in DLC too).
And about Athena... I like her character, but I wish every assistant wouldn't be so Maya-like. I hope DGS's assistant will be different from others.
Spoiler:
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Jumping on the comment against Nearvex for a second. Athena's powers could've been explained, but wouldn't that go against the "show, don't tell" thing!? I don't see how an explanation could've been made without a whole mess of expository dialogue
Take Apollo, and his percieve ability as an example. I'm too lazy to find the dialogue, but I'm pretty sure the characters didn't suddently go on a tangent like: "So that's what why you can use that ability Apollo. You use your bracelet to do it, because you're actually a magician an offspring from the Gramarye family tree! It was because your mother was Lamiroir who is actually Thalassa Gramarye blablabla"
No, they were subtle. That's the whole point of the show-don't-tell vs. "tell-don't-show" thing. They showed just enough through visual stuff and through some pretty clear hints in dialogue that Apollo was Thalassa's unkown son. They didn't beat it in your head. If Takumi could do that, Yamazaki should be able to do something similar with Athena's character as well, and it is defintely a problem now that you guys mention it, that we don't get any justification or backstory to how exactly Athena got her ability. Like BP said it's not hard to accept that she has sensitive hearing which makes her more attentive to people's behavour and moods but it's very hard to accept that she can just magcally sense exactly what they're feeling.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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MBr wrote:
Because empathy is a super power, right?
She's...distinctly more than that...
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Bad Player wrote:
Honestly, I think the biggest problem was the lack of viable suspects.
That's definetely the main issue here.
I suspected cosmos during most part of case 4 and when it ended, I inmediately switched to Starbucks ( his story about passing out was way too convenient as well as the lighter). When I learnt that the culprit has no emotions, I thought of Detective Arme or one of the robots ( since we have already seen Starbucks' emotions in the Mood Matrix) but the phantom was confirmed to be a man so it had to be Fulbright. I didn't really had anything sound pointing at him at the moment, it just had to be him. My second option was that Clay was the phantom from seven years ago and Aura killed him using Plonco, but that seemed too unlikely.
It would have been quite interesting if it had been Arme, actually. I mean, the big bad was dead from case 1? I doubt there are going to be more opportunitys to pull that one off. It could be kind of anticlimatic not having anyone to bring down in the end, but I think that Apollo accusing Athena would have worked nice like some sort of final boss.[/quote]
Last edited by luck on Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Bad Player wrote:
Honestly, I think the biggest problem was the lack of viable suspects.
That's definetely the main issue here.
I suspected cosmos during most part of case 4 and when it ended, I inmediately switched to Starbucks ( his story about passing out was way too convenient as well as the lighter). When I learnt that the culprit has no emotions, I thought of Detective Arme or one of the robots ( since we have already seen Starbucks' emotions in the Mood Matrix) but the phantom was confirmed to be a man so it had to be Fulbright. I didn't really had anything sound pointing at him at the moment, it just had to be him. My second option was that Clay was the phantom from seven years ago and Aura killed him using Plonco, but that seemed too unlikely.
It would have been quite interesting if it had been Arme, actually. I mean, the big bad was dead from case 1? I doubt there are going to be more opportunitys to pull that one off. It could be kind of anticlimatic not having anyone to bring down in the end, but I think that Apollo accusing Athena would have worked nice like some sort of final boss.[/quote]
Last edited by luck on Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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James Granger wrote:
The game has nice background music and cutscenes but the fact is it was a letdown compared to Capcom's earlier AA games
Not when compared to AAI but yeah, exactly. I still did find DD overall a bit more enjoyable than AAI2 though just because AAI2 has some really wooden dialogue, but of course some of that is because I've only seen the fan-translation and I can't compare original scripts since I don't read japanese.
I swear if half the cases didn't rip older AA cases off so much a lot of my problems with DD wouldn't have been there.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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linkenski wrote:
James Granger wrote:
The game has nice background music and cutscenes but the fact is it was a letdown compared to Capcom's earlier AA games
Not when compared to AAI but yeah, exactly. I still did find DD overall a bit more enjoyable than AAI2 though just because AAI2 has some really wooden dialogue, but of course some of that is because I've only seen the fan-translation and I can't compare original scripts since I don't read japanese.
I swear if half the cases didn't rip older AA cases off so much a lot of my problems with DD wouldn't have been there.
What problems did you have with DD?
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Xenoblade Chronicles 2
Kingdom Heats 3
Xenoblade Chronicles
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I'm interested in mechanics,so I would be happy to learn about snake traps.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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The beginning was quite fun, just with all the ups and downs
But suddenly, we’re tired, from a waste of meaningless emotions
But suddenly, we’re tired, from a waste of meaningless emotions
시작은 뭐 즐거웠었네 오르락내리락 그 자체로 어느새 서로 지쳐버렸네 의미 없는 감정소모에
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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As for the main characters I felt that all three were handled pretty equally. Phoenix, Apollo, and Athena all got to shine and while people have opinions in regards to Athena I felt she didn't overshadow anyone as much as people think. Plus it's great to see Wright and Co Law Ofices become more than just Phoenix and Maya. He's now got two great lawyers under him now that the Dark Age of the Law is finally over. I guess you could say Phoenix's office will go down in history for having only the best lawyers.
I felt it was a shame that Klavier didn't get to do much and that Ema wasn't around. But Blackquill was far more important, and there was a reason for his overuse.
As for Edgeworth and Pearl I thought they were handled well. In Edgeworth's case I guess even before GS4 he had always planned on getting Phoenix his badge back, which is why he sent him on all those outings to other countries. As for Pearl... I thought it weird that she'd get all concerned over Athena in the DLC case... If only because she should know better than to think Phoenix would ever "cheat" on Mystic Maya with an 18 year old. But other than that she was handled well compared to Trucy who I felt should have had more screentime.
Spoiler: About the ending
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Spoiler:
In Case 4 I suspected Cosmos too actually
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Trucy needed more screentime, like really it's like Apollo Justice didn't even happen in this game
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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EdgeworthxOldbag wrote:
I wondering why the PL:PW game had better cut scenes if it was made before PW:DD.
Trucy needed more screentime, like really it's like Apollo Justice didn't even happen in this game
Trucy needed more screentime, like really it's like Apollo Justice didn't even happen in this game
Probably my biggest problem with Dual Destinies.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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grim_tales wrote:
Do we know if there'll really be a GS6 or not (I assume there will but maybe not til after that Dai Gyakuten Saiban game, imo)
Are you asking if GS6 will exist or if it will be localized?
No, you don't need to answer that. The answer is yes. The real question is when.
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1/3/19 edit: The project has officially been moved to a new blog at https://gsvsaa.blogspot.com/ Further updates will be pending.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Although DD was a very nice game I'm disappointed that
Spoiler:
Nick and Maya - Friends and Lovers....
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Aetheryn wrote:
linkenski wrote:
When it comes to the cuscenes, I have to say, I don't think they properly made them connect with the rest of the gameplay, and I always had the feeling that "someone else" made the cutscenes other than the actual writers for the game...
They gave me 4Kids vibes, personally.
Also this, particularly in the dubbing for Phoenix and Athena- again, it feels like a bad anime. Something you'd find Sage covering on Anime Abandon or the like. Only good part is when Phoenix enters the courtroom. I gotta admit, I squealed like a twelve-year-old girl when that happened, even though his voice actor was miscast as hell.
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Aquabreeze wrote:
I finished AA4 last night, and I downloaded this and started playing it a couple hours ago- so I'm only on the first case. ...And I gotta be honest here, it just doesn't feel the same at all. The dialogue doesn't have any of the same punch. It all feels very cheesy and state-the-obvious-esque, like a bad anime. "I gotta do my best! like no one ever did" and that sort of stuff. And I really wanted to like Athena because I was really excited about a playable female lawyer- you know, one that hasn't spent most of the series being dead- but she is this close to becoming gratingly annoying, and I'm not even done with the tutorial case yet.
I had the same concern with the first case (it felt like it was trying to be Ace Attorney and failing) but the rest of the game improves, in my opinion
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Spoiler: 5-1
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Spoiler:
Nick and Maya - Friends and Lovers....
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