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Black Psyche-locksTopic%20Title
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I know there was conversation about this in another thread, but I honestly think this is the most mysterious aspect of the Ace Attorney games and it warrants its own discussion.

(this thread could have also been in The Hydeout subsection too but I think it's more fitting here)


So I'm playing 5-5 and

Spoiler: 5-5, 4-4
I just came across Athena's black psyche-locks. Now, I'm sure her story is neatly resolved and such and my main concern isn't really about her specifically.

Pearl says that "a black Psyche-Lock protects a secret from the deepest place in a person's heart... a secret that that person isn't even consciously aware of... Athena isn't trying to keep anything from you on purpose."

"If they are ripped off by force, it could cause permanent damage to a person's soul."

SO. This makes me have about a million questions now.

We saw psyche-locks like these, obviously, in 4-4 when Phoenix asked Kristoph why he killed Shadi Smith. What I think most of us assumed when we saw them was that either

a) Kristoph was so evil and twisted that his psyche-locks appeared different than others' did.
or
b) Kristoph was guarding this secret with all his might and wouldn't dare reveal it.

But now with this new information we know that neither a) nor b) can really explain why they were there. So, this means that Kristoph wasn't purposely hiding why he killed Shadi Smith? He honestly didn't know parts of why he did it?

That's concerning, because it was also assumed that the reason Apollo dragged out of him in court was the truth. We all moved on with our lives when we heard that explanation.

If the psyche-locks were removed with force, it can shatter a person's soul...So, were they removed by force? Is the reason Kristoph went bat-shit crazy because his psyche-locks were ripped off? And does "removing them by force" mean finding the truth or...?


So many loose ends, so little time.

I know there's the explanation people are fond of "Well this new information was just thought-up for GS5 so it doesn't count for GS4" but honestly, that's no fun. We have to work with what we're given and assume truths to remain true for the entire series.
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Re: Black Psyche-locksTopic%20Title
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Yeah man my mind instantly jumped to Kristoph as well.

Like the revelations about it sort of blow that case wide open again. Something extremely traumatic caused him to murder Shadi? Something repressed and emotional he doesn't even know about? Did Shadi kill his father? WHO KNOWS! I mean the Black Psyche locks alone were a lot of unanswered questions but this has just extrapolated that!
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Re: Black Psyche-locksTopic%20Title
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Pierre wrote:
Yeah man my mind instantly jumped to Kristoph as well.

Like the revelations about it sort of blow that case wide open again. Something extremely traumatic caused him to murder Shadi? Something repressed and emotional he doesn't even know about? Did Shadi kill his father? WHO KNOWS! I mean the Black Psyche locks alone were a lot of unanswered questions but this has just extrapolated that!

I always thought the Black Psyche Locks would re-appear in the sequel to AJ, but I honestly thought they'd be unlocking Kristoph's, not moving to another character to show. Maybe they're setting this up for GS6?

I think that if we disregard the whole "new team = inherit incosistencies" idea, then there could be more than 1 meaning to Black Psyche-Locks. As they are "so cold" they could be still a form of pure evil locking them up to the point where Kristoph was blinded and couldn't remember why anymore.
Spoiler: GS5-5
Much like Athena's large amount of trauma causes her to hide her feelings deeply to the point she can't recall it, thus being in the same position as Kristoph, only the extreme circumstance that caused it wasn't evil, but another situation.


My explanation may be all over the place, sorry. It's just a bit of a let-out on how I'm trying to make sense of this.
I really hope all these loose ends are tied up in GS6!
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My take, from Pearl's explanation of black psyche-locks in 5-5, is that as time went on and Kristoph's schemes got more and more intense and convoluted, he eventually didn't even realise what he was even doing or why he was doing it. Like when a huge argument occurs after just a minor comment, you lose track of how it even started once things get heated. Guy clearly has problems, that's for sure :Kristoph-hair:
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Re: Black Psyche-locksTopic%20Title
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Spoiler: AJ, DD
If you apply DD's explanation to Kristoph's locks, it basically means that Kristoph doesn't consciously knows why he killed Shadi Smith.
Which makes me realize that I'm not sure of the reason either. It could have been out of revenge for being fired 7 years ago, or it could have been out of paranoia to prevent him from talking.

The most common explanations I've seen is that Kristoph refuses to admit to himself that he killed Zak just because he was fired after the game of poker (because that's really a petty reason to kill someone). He would rather convinced himself that he killed because "he's evil".
Another common explanation (as mentioned above) is that Kristoph went so far trying to cover his crimes, watching and killing everyone involved, that he eventually no longer realized why he was doing it.
Or, the black locks are hiding unconscious psychological troubles like psychopathy.

Cravat of Doom wrote:
If the psyche-locks were removed with force, it can shatter a person's soul...So, were they removed by force? Is the reason Kristoph went bat-shit crazy because his psyche-locks were ripped off? And does "removing them by force" mean finding the truth or...?

Don't we always remove psyche-locks by finding the truth? Both for the normal red ones, and Athena's black locks.
I assume removing the black locks means making the person realize the secret behind them. And removing them by force would traumatize the person. I don't know much about psychology, but I assume there's a right way and a wrong way to make people realize their repressed secrets.

It's possible that Kristoph went crazy because his locks were opened the wrong way, but I'm not sure. I think he lost it when he learned that Wright was behind the jury system?
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Jozerick wrote:
Spoiler: AJ, DD
Cravat of Doom wrote:
If the psyche-locks were removed with force, it can shatter a person's soul...So, were they removed by force? Is the reason Kristoph went bat-shit crazy because his psyche-locks were ripped off? And does "removing them by force" mean finding the truth or...?

Don't we always remove psyche-locks by finding the truth? Both for the normal red ones, and Athena's black locks.
I assume removing the black locks means making the person realize the secret behind them. And removing them by force would traumatize the person. I don't know much about psychology, but I assume there's a right way and a wrong way to make people realize their repressed secrets.

It's possible that Kristoph went crazy because his locks were opened the wrong way, but I'm not sure. I think he lost it when he learned that Wright was behind the jury system?

Spoiler: GS4, 5
I'd like to point out that Wright dealing a blow against his psyche with a set-up trial was indeed traumatizing, but it doesn't directly relate to his psyche-locks. They appeared only when Wright asked him about his reason for killing Zak. It is possible that the two points are indirectly related - such that Kristoph losing his grip on, well, everything caused him to panic, triggering something from memories long locked away to suddenly pop out, but not completely or properly. (Or, I'm totally throwing out crap for people to look at.)

I've always interpreted them as Kristoph having forgotten exactly what he was hoping to achieve and had convinced himself that he was just plain evil. It can still apply with Pearl's explanation. All she said was that the person him/herself doesn't realize (s)he's hiding a secret when they appear. Kristoph didn't know he still had some sort of memory locked up inside. I may be going off on a tangent here, but perhaps his relationship with Klavier stems much deeper than even he expected. I've long wondered why Klavier looked up to his brother so much that he'd blindly trust him without much thought about it, but back then, simply passed it off as a tight bond. I still doubt Kris actually loved his brother that way, so their "tight bond" could be the result of Kris toying with Klav in a way that he'd ensure Klav would always listen to him.

Spoiler: GK2
I wonder if Souta would have had any black psyche-locks at any point, if Phoenix ever had a chance to meet him. I don't think so, given how easily Souta recovered from his oh-so-traumatizing daddy-issues mix-up, which made for a very clear motive to lead the murder of his "best friend".

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Re: Black Psyche-locksTopic%20Title
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Spoiler: AJ
I always found "Too evil and persistent to be normal" explanation for Psyche-Locks to be quite silly, to be honest...

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To me at least, this seems to be a very clever retcon. It takes a nebulous concept (Psyche Locks... but unbreakable!) and creates a sequel hook that possibly wasn't there before. (Though I always thought it was one, personally.)

Spoiler:
See, there was nothing in AJ:AA that suggested that Kristoph's Black Locks were tied into his grand master plan. It was all in the motive, a secret that Kristoph only subconsciously knew about. I think it ties into the fact that though the mystery was solved, there was a lot of gaps there.


I really hope that if there's a concluding part to this 'trilogy' that the loose ends from both AJ:AA and AA:DD get tied up in a reasonable way. There's too much good potential to squander it by ignoring them.
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I have a theory, but there's very little evidence to back it up. Here's the theory:

Spoiler: Come on, there are only 2 cases to discuss here
I remember one comment in particular from Spark Brushel. He noted that Zak only died after he came into contact with him (giving evidence that the mastermind was watching him). It may be possible that Gavin heard something in a conversation between the two, and knew he had to kill him, but didn't know why anymore. Maybe something like trigger words - "magic", "seven years", "forged". It may have even been as simple as a primal, internal need to kill him when he saw him that very night, at the Borscht Bowl Club.
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What I don't get is how they managed to show up in court despite the fact the psyche locks never popped up whenever people lie on the witness stand
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I must say... thinking harder about the black psyche locks just recently made me

Spoiler: 4-4
stop being disappointed by the fact that we didn't get to break Kristoph's black locks. When playing Apollo Justice it was just frustrating to no end, naturally. But with this explanation... I'm thoroughly intrigued. I don't want to know what's behind his psyche locks - I want to think, guess, make theories. I find it interesting that neither we (nor he, from what it seems like) get to know why he really killed Shadi. I find it a bit creepy - what is he hiding, even from himself?


I feel like I'm rambling a bit, especially since I was frustrated by the psyche locks not too long ago, even after DD. Now I just like the uncertainity.
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I see this like that :think: :

Spoiler: 4-1 and 4-4
Kristoph was choosen by Zak-Asshole-Gramarye to be his lawyer but was suddenly rejected over his loss in a game of poker and replaced with Phoenix Wright. Then he decided to kill Zak and started to hate Phoenix. Why? I think he's emotionally unstable and somewhat of psychopatic. He didn't have to dirt his hands to do so - all he had to do was to make sure that Gramarye gets a guilty verdict (premeditated murder = death penalty). He could do that AND destroy Phoenix Wright by doing what he did (forging evidence and blaming Phoenix for it through his brother). Everything would have been fine for him then, if it wasn't for Gramarye's vanishing act. Gramarye managed to stay alive. I imagine that Kristoph was furious, but he couldn't do anything about it, so he carried on his plan and tried to erase Misham. He also posed to be friends with Wright to deceive him. 7 years later Kristoph, after he was done dinning with Phoenix, saw a man on his way out of the restaurant. That was him - Zak Gramarye. I think that at this moment Gavin lost his awareness of what he was doing. Filled with anger and madness, he killed Shadi Smith with no reason that he was aware of. Later, Phoenix asked him for his motive for murdering Shadi Smith. That's when black psyche locks appeared. They appeared because Gavin didn't consciously know why he killed Gramarye. The reason for that was very deep in his corrupted heart. And it was revenge - revenge so strong that it influenced his actions and made him kill Shadi Smith aka. Zak Gramarye.



PS. It's my first post here so I want to say hello to everybody :butzthumbs:
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Well, it definitely makes sense - I like it. :kristoph:

And: Hello, hello! :justice:
Gimme a "P"! Gimme an "I"! Give me a "P" and an "E"! What's that spell?! Pipe!
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WaitingForGodot, CR will start dubbing you as "WaitingForGodot: Ace Necroposter" if you keep necro-ing threads too much. No Offense. :simon:

Also, Hi Terry! :basil:
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There's nothing wrong in posting in inactive threads as long as the topic is still relevant to discuss.
(......Ack! I've run out of snide comments!)
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This is confusing - I certainly have been posting in inactive threads now and then, but at the same time I wouldn't exactly pinpoint myself as the one most prone to necroposting. And, haha, here, in these less active parts of the forum, that is, it's rather hard to avoid. And it's not like I write in threads that haven't been active since 2012 or something. I don't take offense, though. *chews on a feather* :simon:
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WaitingforGodot wrote:
I wouldn't exactly pinpoint myself as the one most prone to necroposting.


No, that would be me :ron:
(......Ack! I've run out of snide comments!)
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