Board index » Phoenix Wright » Defendant's Lobby » Themis Legal Academy (GS5)

Page 1 of 1[ 9 posts ]
 


On Apollo and Athena's abilities (Spoilers)Topic%20Title
User avatar

Enoshima Junko-chan!

Gender: Male

Location: Canada

Rank: Prosecutor

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:48 pm

Posts: 866

(I'm putting this in the AA5 forum because it's the only game in which Athena appears in so far)

I find that Apollo and Athena's abilities are at odds with each other in how they're explained and executed. In Apollo's case, we have the final case of Apollo Justice in which Zak explains in depth how and why Apollo has his ability, and how it works. We get no such thing for Athena. I accept the theory that her ability is the result of her having sensitive hearing combined with very high empathy, meaning she's very sensitive to emotions. But of course the game is silent on the matter. The only person who could know is Metis, and she's dead. But if she did, she wrote nothing of it down (that we know of) when Phoenix went investigating the robotics lab.

Now, on to the main part of the thread, which is the implementation of Apollo and Athena's abilities. I find that Athena excels in this regards. Athena is able to find an unusual emotion, and explain it with her knowledge in psychology or with some bluffing. When you're playing as Apollo or Phoenix while using the Mood Matrix, they explain emotions in a similar way. The point I'm trying to make here is that there's always a reason for the unusual emotions, which brings me over to Apollo's ability.

I'm not saying that the nervous habits spotted by Apollo's ability have no reason behind them, but most of them do. Let me explain. Most of the time, you spot a nervous habit, and then present evidence to contradict it. But in this case, the witness is just twitching just because they're nervous. It's almost like the game is saying: Here is the problematic statement. Present evidence.
So my point here is that the twitches/nervous habits need to have a reason behind them. I'll give some examples of what I mean.
In the first case, Olga rubs the back of her head while saying nothing had happened, because she's recalling the memory of her being hit over the head.
Similarly, Alita plays with her scarf because she's hiding the marks on her neck from being choked. When she does this, she's claiming that she simply went home after meeting the victim.
Finally, "Fulbright"'s left thumb reaches towards his gun holster when talking about the lighter's button, because by pressing it the lighter transforms into a gun.

But the majority of habits in the series are just there as an excuse to use Perceive, and Apollo's reasoning for them goes something like: "Your fingers are twitching! I just know you're hiding something!"

Thoughts?
11037


Last edited by MBr on Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: On Apollo and Athena's abilitiesTopic%20Title
User avatar

Red string of fate tied me to manilla

Gender: Female

Location: ELO

Rank: Desk Jockey

Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:38 pm

Posts: 126

Ah, a good find. I can't really say about it much gameplay wise... but plot wise this is problematic. In the AJ there was clear reasons for the twitches. In DD... well, I guess there was a reason why Taka attacked Apollo.
Re: On Apollo and Athena's abilitiesTopic%20Title
User avatar

Gettin' Old!

Gender: Male

Location: Scotland

Rank: Ace Attorney

Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:30 pm

Posts: 14363

Ahahahahaha.

This all sounds very very familiar.

You might not know it, but this issue has been criticised and debated at exceptional length from another thread discussing Athena Cykes. Personally I really dislike her ability, sensitive hearing doesn't work that way at all and it's fully clear whether it's HER doing the work or Widget. For example if we took Widget from Athena and gave it to Phoenix does that mean he could do it? Does Athena input the information? What exactly is hearing "emotions of the heart"? It's clearly something beyond simple sound as people in the game portray emotions contrary to what they are saying so it's more than just hearing someone's voice trembling.

For me Apollo's power has always been the most tied to reality, I've never been really fond of people calling it a "power". I mean the worst offender for "normal powers" is clearly Edgeworth with his ability to use "logic." Reading Body language and nervous twitches is something that anyone can do, I mean Nick was TAUGHT it to a lesser degree by Trucy. It's meant to be an unconscious twitch, a tell that someone is hiding something. It's coincidental that some are tied to...well something that actually happened (like Orly's neck). I mean Trucy was just using tells to read people at cards and tell they were bluffing or not. I sincerely doubt there's any relevant reason to tell someone is bluffing related to the specific cards they are holding (i.e. a specific read for a "Jack" or a "King" as opposed to a general read for someone who is lying about the quality of their hand).

(Also for the record you should edit it so that the title says "SPOILERS" rather than putting it at the first line of the first post. If somebody clicks the "View latest Post" one they'll blitz right past it.)
Made by Chesu+Zombee
Image

You thought you could be safe in your courts, with your laws and attorneys to protect you. In this world only I am law, my word is fact, my power is absolute.
Re: On Apollo and Athena's abilitiesTopic%20Title
User avatar

Gender: Male

Location: Spain

Rank: Medium-in-training

Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:38 pm

Posts: 477

Pierre wrote:
For me Apollo's power has always been the most tied to reality, I've never been really fond of people calling it a "power". I mean the worst offender for "normal powers" is clearly Edgeworth with his ability to use "logic." Reading Body language and nervous twitches is something that anyone can do, I mean Nick was TAUGHT it to a lesser degree by Trucy. It's meant to be an unconscious twitch, a tell that someone is hiding something.


That's until you get to the part where the Gramaryes get tense when someone else is nervous, and that causes their body to get hot and the bracelet to reduce its size because it's made of a special alloy. That's sci-fi at best.

Since it's obvious that all this things exist more for the sake of gameplay than anything, I almost rather that they explain them with good ol' magic like the magatama instead of going for some pseudo-scientific stuff, because then it ends up sounding pretty silly and leaving more questions than answer, IMHO
Re: On Apollo and Athena's abilitiesTopic%20Title
User avatar

Gettin' Old!

Gender: Male

Location: Scotland

Rank: Ace Attorney

Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:30 pm

Posts: 14363

luck wrote:
Pierre wrote:
For me Apollo's power has always been the most tied to reality, I've never been really fond of people calling it a "power". I mean the worst offender for "normal powers" is clearly Edgeworth with his ability to use "logic." Reading Body language and nervous twitches is something that anyone can do, I mean Nick was TAUGHT it to a lesser degree by Trucy. It's meant to be an unconscious twitch, a tell that someone is hiding something.


That's until you get to the part where the Gramaryes get tense when someone else is nervous, and that causes their body to get hot and the bracelet to reduce its size because it's made of a special alloy. That's sci-fi at best.

Since it's obvious that all this things exist more for the sake of gameplay than anything, I almost rather that they explain them with good ol' magic like the magatama instead of going for some pseudo-scientific stuff, because then it ends up sounding pretty silly and leaving more questions than answer, IMHO


Oh yeah I totally get that what Apollo does is something "above" normal. Its explained to a great degree unlike Athena's power.
Made by Chesu+Zombee
Image

You thought you could be safe in your courts, with your laws and attorneys to protect you. In this world only I am law, my word is fact, my power is absolute.
Re: On Apollo and Athena's abilitiesTopic%20Title
User avatar

Gender: Male

Location: Japanifornia

Rank: Medium-in-training

Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:24 pm

Posts: 435

And now we have this.


Image


Totally logical and rational. That's SCIENCE!
Image

Gregory... Tomorrow, I'm heading towards that fateful place with your son. To find out the truth of 18 years ago...
Re: On Apollo and Athena's abilities (Spoilers)Topic%20Title
User avatar

Enoshima Junko-chan!

Gender: Male

Location: Canada

Rank: Prosecutor

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:48 pm

Posts: 866

I mean that in the way that Perceive is used in the courtroom in its first game (since in DD it's used a grand total of once) it could mostly be replaced by just pressing. I'm talking about instances like when you have to Perceive Brushel and Kristoph.
In Brushel's case, he says something like: "Like it or not, but Drew's talents were beyond compare." Then you could press him on that and he'd say something like: "Well, he was totally original!" and you have evidence to disprove that.

I think Perceive works best in people who simply won't answer questions when you press them. Phoenix would usually try to bluff it at that point, but Apollo has Perceive, and I think that's where he shines.

And in the first case of DD, Athena explains that she enters what she hears into Widget, so if you were to give Widget to Phoenix, he wouldn't make use of it, and Athena would have a much harder time at analyzing emotions without it as well.
11037
Re: On Apollo and Athena's abilitiesTopic%20Title

I can't be the only one with this ship?

Gender: None specified

Rank: Desk Jockey

Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:27 pm

Posts: 66

Slammer wrote:
And now we have this.


Image


Totally logical and rational. That's SCIENCE!


dude in the first phoeinx wright game, we had spirit medium who brought mia back from the dead

It wasn't the most realistic game
Re: On Apollo and Athena's abilitiesTopic%20Title
User avatar

Gender: Male

Location: Japanifornia

Rank: Medium-in-training

Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:24 pm

Posts: 435

EdgeworthxOldbag wrote:
Slammer wrote:
And now we have this.


Image


Totally logical and rational. That's SCIENCE!


dude in the first phoeinx wright game, we had spirit medium who brought mia back from the dead

It wasn't the most realistic game


We're speaking of abilities/game mechanics that influence the gameplay, not some kind of spiritual thing that just brings a character back from the death. Infact, I actually liked that gimmick.

I just hope the Magic Mirror doesn't make this game excessively based on paranormal stuff.
Image

Gregory... Tomorrow, I'm heading towards that fateful place with your son. To find out the truth of 18 years ago...
Page 1 of 1 [ 9 posts ] 
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  

 Board index » Phoenix Wright » Defendant's Lobby » Themis Legal Academy (GS5)

Who is online
Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 15 guests

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum
Jump to:  
News News Site map Site map SitemapIndex SitemapIndex RSS Feed RSS Feed Channel list Channel list
Powered by phpBB

phpBB SEO