...this game is overwhelmingly negative.

Maybe it's just because the characters the negativity target seem so...I dunno, undeserving but all the chants for the death penalty and Nahyuta's general acidity lacks the ironic humor that Ace Attorney is known for. It just comes across as bitter. Add to that



It's like the entire Ace Attorney universe is in a bad mood for this game.

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I know exactly what you mean, but I am curious why you only notice it now? I think with DD Yamazaki aimed to capture the tradition Ace Attorney in style and storytelling but the end result felt somewhat like a pale imitation to me, but it did manage well in certain parts. This one feels more honestly Yamazaki in style and that means it's essentially GK but in the main series.

I think many people assumed the different style and vibe of GK (some didn't even notice too) came from the format, but it's always been clear to me that it's the way Yamazaki thinks when he comes up with a story that does it. He simply has a different approach and IMHO he has turned the series more and more into a fantasy-like setting whereas it used to be a very exaggerated satirical depiction of reality, and like you say it was full of irony especially for prosecutors. Nahyuta is like Lang and Courtney. He doesn't have it. Blackquill wasn't exactly parodical but he was so zany in design and so obviously ironic in being a convict that convicts other criminals, that it worked.

Now, I like Nahyuta, but he is a friggin fantasy character, and he's not exactly super likeable. He's simply passable and lacking in presence.

As for the other characters and case 2 thematically, it's not the most solid or charming one, but it still feels proper in the end.

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I kind of see the comparison between Sahdmahdhi and Courtney because Courtney was just unbearable for most of the game until the climax.

Still, I have never felt this bad for some of the characters, like Ahlbi and Trucy, when the whole populace is shouting for their demise. Things have been bad but usually for the defense attorney, not the defendant. This is the first time they put the pressure on characters who feel legitimately defenseless (plus Case 1 can end really depressingly if you fail since everyone dies), to the point it almost clouds out the usual Ace Attorney feel.

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I didn't like Nahyuta from start to finish and this is the only AA game I've disliked a prosecutor like that. This game can be pretty brutal in its tone and yeah, it can be unsettling.

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It's true that this game is quite intense, and at times that makes the jokes feel less like classic Ace Attorney satire and more like downright black comedy.

For example,

or


And yes, this game tries pretty hard to make you feel as sorry as possible for as many characters as possible, and most of the game is like that. It's clearly the darker and grittier entry in the franchise. Whether you like that or not, that's up for you to decide.

The constant negativity from Nahyuta and the gallery could've been toned down. They overused the courtroom pan/gallery heckling I felt.

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Klavier was the only good prosecutor, I'm telling you.

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I'm fine with the themes. The series has been escalating for years, it makes sense the stakes should too.

Also, lets not forget that AJ:AA had a similar darkness to it, and it was a Takumi game.

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Half way through case 3, I gotta say that I love the increased hostility. It now truly feels like the entire world is against you and that just one person is no longer your only adversary; silencing a crowd of naysayers is way more satisfying than just one. It's the kind of adversity the series has been lacking for a long while and I welcome it.

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But they're being mean to TRUCY. That's so wrong!

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Just makes it feel that much better when you win.

SoJ actually made me give a damn about Trucy, so I have to give it props for that alone. She may as well have not even been in DD, and in AJ she was a borderline Sue.



Seeing Trucy actually faltering and vulnerable in 6-2 made her that much more relatable.

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You'd think this series has a problem with Mary Sue characters with how often the term is used.

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That's because most people don't actually know what the word means, or how to accurately use it.

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I must be used to it. It didn't bother me near as much in case 3, despite the suspect being someone just as personable as Trucy.

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That's because most people don't actually know what the word means, or how to accurately use it.

The way I define it is if you have a character that is introduced into a pre-establishment of any kind, whether that's a long-running cast in a late series or a greenhorn among a bunch of veterans in a new story but then you see this character triumph over most of their odds without really going through a believable sense of hardship. I think Mary Sues are characters that flatten the tires in a story for the sake of the sensationalism of having a "strong character". For example, Layton is supposedly really smart so much that even the player should be in awe, so sometimes he has everything figured out completely in advance of every other participant in the story, but that's a problem from a writing or storytelling POV because that's not interesting, and it glances over the potential of showing Layton struggle. Note that Layton is NOT a Mary Sue though, because he is not a greenhorn and he is not a new guy shoved into a pre-existing establishment, except for in PLvPWAA where he actually is thrown into the establishment of Ace Attorney and then it becomes jarring how much he steals the spotlight becuase of his character traits.

The term loosely applies to Athena in the sense that compared to Apollo and Wright she feels too quickly integrated with the pre-existing main cast and almost every possible story development is thrown at her in the shortest amount of time. In terms of showing her struggle, it does hold some merit but it is wildly inconsistent I think. Dual Destinies did not know when to show restraint with her, and for example there is a moment in the final case where she does something spontaneously that sucks the sense of tension out of everything and then one of the final things that happens to corner the foe feels too very forced just to show how amazing she apparently is. There are also plenty of times in SoJ where she feels out of place with all the returning characters, partly because she barely introduces herself before acting like an old aquintance and she really lacks situational awareness during certain emotional moments, breaking the tone with poorly timed comedic reliefs in a way Maya would usually do it, but it just doesn't quite work becuase it feels like Athena should know better, given that she's more bright and snappy than Maya.

A real Mary Sue is probably Rey in the new Star Wars movie who is essentially a feminist sensation who is born as a lowlife who knows how to survive but then she can also fly ships, she always knows where to go and is always pushing on ahead of the other main characters and she steals the spotlight for another important new character about 3 times doing stuff that's "cool" and "impressive" just to celebrate how she's a strong female protagonist in a male dominated role, and the result is that you couldn't care less about her because she never goes through actual hardship and therefore never earns her victory, and personally I wish we could soon see some actually STRONG FEMALE PROTAGONISTS (TM) that don't shove in your face how they're strong and female at the expense of the narrative. I feel there's an ironic disrespect for the subject matter the filmmakers are trying to respect in such cases, and they should do better and stop beign tryhard about it.

TL;DR: My definition is that a Mary Sue is an insert character either among a main cast in a pre-existing franchise or a greenhorn among vets in a new cast who never earns their victories but forcibly get there, and as a result they feel like imposters and make you want them to go away and make room for the other characters

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oh cool it's the "true definition of a Mary Sue" argument again

Use whatever terminology you want, my point still stands

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Let's not go too deep into the definition of a Mary Sue, for some reason, it always causes anger on both sides and I have a feeling the mods wouldn't like it... But Rey from Star Wars is still totally a Mary Sue

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