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Re: Thoughs/Concerns for GS6Topic%20Title
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luck wrote:
The weirdness is due to this being a retcon. Obviuosly Takumi didn't have this in mind when he created the Feys. The story is probable going to be that Ami Fey was born in Kurain and emigrated to Japan.

At this point this is just how the storytelling has to work with this series if they want to keep having returning characters to the extent that they have them. They are, by premise, opening up stories that had been wrapped up and the only way to plausibly continue them is to create contrivances, which like you say, obviously were not a thing originally. It's similar to how Naughty Dog decided to continue Uncharted by saying "Oh, uhm, the protagonist has a brother you've never heard about before, who drags him into another mess"
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I think that both DD and AA6 feel a little strange, not due to the narrative, but rather because of how they are shoehorning the new gimmicks into the game. A lot of aspects of DD felt like the mood matrix was made first, and then they figured out which characters necessitate the use of the mood matrix.

I get the same vibe in AA6. Seance trials were created, and then they said "Lets see how we can make a story around this". I'm getting very worried that the AA/GS franchise will become a series defined by the gimmicks instead of the rock solid plot of AA games 1 to 4.
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adit2789 wrote:
I think that both DD and AA6 feel a little strange, not due to the narrative, but rather because of how they are shoehorning the new gimmicks into the game. A lot of aspects of DD felt like the mood matrix was made first, and then they figured out which characters necessitate the use of the mood matrix.

I get the same vibe in AA6. Seance trials were created, and then they said "Lets see how we can make a story around this". I'm getting very worried that the AA/GS franchise will become a series defined by the gimmicks instead of the rock solid plot of AA games 1 to 4.

I do agree there. There was never anything wrong with the original formula, yet by T&T I was actually starting to grow weary of it just because, well, familiarity breeds contempt I guess, so I understand the notion of "how do we keep it fresh?" the game directors probably have, but I think rather than making new mechanics and gimmicks they should've focused on making more interesting cases that break the tropes and formulae of the series. DD certainly didn't attempt this at all from my POV, but AAI2 did and in certain ways PLvPWAA did and I guess DGS did too.

I do see a tendency that, sorry to generalize, seems rather japanese, that has happened almost parallel to this franchise in the Souls franhcise as well. They have the main creator Miyazaki whose absense in the second Dark Souls caused a bit of division in the fanbase but once he returned for Dark Souls 3 he kinda reiterated a lot of ideas he had previously used again and in contrast Dark Souls 2, albeit slightly out of character at times, is just a very different and "fresh" game in comparison. I get the same feeling here that even though DGS was an attempt at breaking out of the box, Takumi was still relying too much on the tired tropes he had made originally rather than, say make cases not about murder or cases where a friend betrays you or something. You know, things that use the regular format but haven't been done before without being too similar to previous ideas.

I have almost forgotten how before I got in deep into this series, I always wondered why every case was a murder case. I kinda understand it now, but I still think it would be possible to create an excellent dramatic plot in a story about a trial with gameplay where you find lies and contradictions and play the "whodunit" game without making it feel un-Ace Attorney, and I'm kinda surprised it has never been done.
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linkenski wrote:
adit2789 wrote:
I think that both DD and AA6 feel a little strange, not due to the narrative, but rather because of how they are shoehorning the new gimmicks into the game. A lot of aspects of DD felt like the mood matrix was made first, and then they figured out which characters necessitate the use of the mood matrix.

I get the same vibe in AA6. Seance trials were created, and then they said "Lets see how we can make a story around this". I'm getting very worried that the AA/GS franchise will become a series defined by the gimmicks instead of the rock solid plot of AA games 1 to 4.

I do agree there. There was never anything wrong with the original formula, yet by T&T I was actually starting to grow weary of it just because, well, familiarity breeds contempt I guess, so I understand the notion of "how do we keep it fresh?" the game directors probably have, but I think rather than making new mechanics and gimmicks they should've focused on making more interesting cases that break the tropes and formulae of the series. DD certainly didn't attempt this at all from my POV, but AAI2 did and in certain ways PLvPWAA did and I guess DGS did too.

I do see a tendency that, sorry to generalize, seems rather japanese, that has happened almost parallel to this franchise in the Souls franhcise as well. They have the main creator Miyazaki whose absense in the second Dark Souls caused a bit of division in the fanbase but once he returned for Dark Souls 3 he kinda reiterated a lot of ideas he had previously used again and in contrast Dark Souls 2, albeit slightly out of character at times, is just a very different and "fresh" game in comparison. I get the same feeling here that even though DGS was an attempt at breaking out of the box, Takumi was still relying too much on the tired tropes he had made originally rather than, say make cases not about murder or cases where a friend betrays you or something. You know, things that use the regular format but haven't been done before without being too similar to previous ideas.

I have almost forgotten how before I got in deep into this series, I always wondered why every case was a murder case. I kinda understand it now, but I still think it would be possible to create an excellent dramatic plot in a story about a trial with gameplay where you find lies and contradictions and play the "whodunit" game without making it feel un-Ace Attorney, and I'm kinda surprised it has never been done.

Agreed on every point. If they wanted to make things fresh, I think taking the series in a civil suit direction could have been interesting. It would have been a method of making the game fresh without using any new "gameplay" elements. At this point, I think it also could be interesting to see all three protagonists stripped of their "powers" and see how they fare in a high stakes trial.
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My biggest concern actually got deconfirmed by the datamining thread on Reddit today.
Spoiler: AA6 Culprits
Turns out they're not all male this time. That's good considering DD had me worried Yamazaki was on the path to getting rid of villainesses. Yay, time to see who has the potential of topping muh :dahlia: this time.

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At least one of my many, MANY concerns for this game has been calmed if that datamine is too be believed.
Spoiler: Potentially the final case
FINAL CASE SPOILERS


I will gladly take all this unnecessary fanservice if i can play as Apollo in the final case. Looking forward to that one, though i'm honestly not sure if this datamine is too be believed seeing as Phoenix is the final prosecutor, i'm having a hard time believing that.

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Last edited by Klonoahedgehog on Fri May 20, 2016 1:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Klonoahedgehog wrote:
At least one of my many, MANY concerns for this game has been calmed if that datamine is too be believed.
Spoiler:
I will gladly take all this unnecessary fanservice if i can play as Apollo in the final case. Looking forward to that one, though i'm honestly not sure if this datamine is too be believed seeing as Phoenix is the final prosecutor, i'm having a hard time believing that.

Seems plausible, given the latest trailer.
Just, uh... Could you add a spoiler warning to your post? Final Case potential spoilers or something.
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Tiagofvarela wrote:
Klonoahedgehog wrote:
At least one of my many, MANY concerns for this game has been calmed if that datamine is too be believed.
Spoiler:
I will gladly take all this unnecessary fanservice if i can play as Apollo in the final case. Looking forward to that one, though i'm honestly not sure if this datamine is too be believed seeing as Phoenix is the final prosecutor, i'm having a hard time believing that.

Seems plausible, given the latest trailer.
Just, uh... Could you add a spoiler warning to your post? Final Case potential spoilers or something.

Didn't i already put a spoiler tag?
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Klonoahedgehog wrote:
Tiagofvarela wrote:
Klonoahedgehog wrote:
At least one of my many, MANY concerns for this game has been calmed if that datamine is too be believed.
Spoiler:
I will gladly take all this unnecessary fanservice if i can play as Apollo in the final case. Looking forward to that one, though i'm honestly not sure if this datamine is too be believed seeing as Phoenix is the final prosecutor, i'm having a hard time believing that.

Seems plausible, given the latest trailer.
Just, uh... Could you add a spoiler warning to your post? Final Case potential spoilers or something.

Didn't i already put a spoiler tag?

No, you did. It's totally fine. It's more of an extra precaution against people like me who didn't think there'd be info on the final case this early or for people who quote you but accidentally get spoiled because the spoiler only works outside the editor.
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Klonoahedgehog wrote:
Tiagofvarela wrote:
Klonoahedgehog wrote:
At least one of my many, MANY concerns for this game has been calmed if that datamine is too be believed.
Spoiler:
I will gladly take all this unnecessary fanservice if i can play as Apollo in the final case. Looking forward to that one, though i'm honestly not sure if this datamine is too be believed seeing as Phoenix is the final prosecutor, i'm having a hard time believing that.

Seems plausible, given the latest trailer.
Just, uh... Could you add a spoiler warning to your post? Final Case potential spoilers or something.

Didn't i already put a spoiler tag?


Naming the spoilers is pretty nice in order for people to know whether they can open it or not.



Btw. if we are to believe the data miner on reddit, then we already know all the returning characters. And I just don't see that many that aren't necessary.

I mean all members of the Agency should just return, the same as Phoenix, Maya, Mia and Pearly returned in the first trilogy. The judge and Payne are also a given, the same with the returning detective (Ema/Gumshoe).

So for SoJ we have Edgeworth, Maya and Blackquill left. Edgeworth actually appears in 5 out of 6 mainline games and has two spin-offs of his own. So actually it's not even weird for him to come back in AA6. He is Phoenix' friend and works as the chief prosecutor, so he is involved in a lot of cases.
Blackquill probably only has a rather small role in AA6, but he continues the tradition of prosecutors from former games returning. Only Godot didn't return for obvious reasons. I don't see any problem here.
Maya wasn't present in the last two games, although she was still mentioned by Phoenix. The setting basically forced her return (or rather they made a setting to justify her return) and i expect her to play an important role, so I don't have any problems with her returning as well. In addition there were a lot of fans hoping for her return, so it's even justified fan service.

In T&T we saw Adrian returning, but she wasn't really necessary and could have been replaced by any other character. Not that I dislike her return in any way. Still -> fan service
Grossberg was necessary for Mia's story.
Larry returned just for fun, no real need here. -> fan service
Maggey comes back for no real reason. It was even weird to have a familiar character, because why should she mistake Tiger for Phoenix, if she knows Phoenix? -> fan service
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Lusankya wrote:
Naming the spoilers is pretty nice in order for people to know whether they can open it or not.


I don't know how to do that.
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Klonoahedgehog wrote:
Lusankya wrote:
Naming the spoilers is pretty nice in order for people to know whether they can open it or not.


I don't know how to do that.


Just write something after the "=" sign.
E.g.
[*spoiler=Regarding the scene in the latest JP trailer]Test[/spoiler*] becomes


Spoiler: Regarding the scene in the latest JP trailer
Test
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Lusankya wrote:
In T&T we saw Adrian returning, but she wasn't really necessary and could have been replaced by any other character. Not that I dislike her return in any way. Still -> fan service
Grossberg was necessary for Mia's story.
Larry returned just for fun, no real need here. -> fan service
Maggey comes back for no real reason. It was even weird to have a familiar character, because why should she mistake Tiger for Phoenix, if she knows Phoenix? -> fan service

I disagree with some of your assessments.

Adrian Andrews could have been any other character, but was it fanservice? IDK, if Hugh returns for AA6 is it fanservice? Doesn't seem like it because he was just in DD, and seeing him return is actually an improvement to his story in DD as it reflects on how his story ended. That extra bit of characterization 3-2 gives to Adrian was actually rather poignant to me. It shows the outcome of her arc better than the end of 2-4 did, because her personal struggle isn't over like a flip-switch after Phoenix resolves her crisis.

I do agree on Larry and Maggey though. But it's still nice fanservice IMHO, as opposed to Klavier or Pearl in DD who are just there to be there. The fact that they're back isn't necessarily damaging, it's how they're brought back and if they almost have nothing to do, then what the heck is the point other than pandering to fans? That's bad fanservice, I think.
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Larry started off as Nick's best friend and kind of part of the main cast in the first game, so I think he just deserved to be in the finale.
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luck wrote:
Larry started off as Nick's best friend and kind of part of the main cast in the first game, so I think he just deserved to be in the finale.

There it is again. Why do people say AA6 is a finale?
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linkenski wrote:
luck wrote:
Larry started off as Nick's best friend and kind of part of the main cast in the first game, so I think he just deserved to be in the finale.

There it is again. Why do people say AA6 is a finale?

I meant T&T.
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Even Larry got his bit of character development in the end of T&T. But then the Investigations games decided to go back to how he was before T&T.
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MBr wrote:
Even Larry got his bit of character development in the end of T&T. But then the Investigations games decided to go back to how he was before T&T.


How? What is his difference?
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If that mined data is to believed, I rather look forward to that matchup, even if the prospect of seeing him at the prosecutor's bench is a little farfetched, even for Ace Attorney. It explains Apollo's line at the end of the first trailer, and possibly why Edgeworth is in the game.

Since Consultation is returning, I hope it's been improved. I felt that the hints given in DD were as uninteresting as they could get. I normally like diving into every nook and cranny of the game script, but DD and PLvsAA were exceptions for me. If there's something worth seeing in Consultations other than the actual hints, like some extra interaction between Apollo and Athena, or Phoenix and Maya, then I will be willing to dig deep.

The demo wasn't a good example of its potential since we only get to play as Phoenix by himself, and of course he's not going to mess around in his own head.
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Blizdi wrote:
MBr wrote:
Even Larry got his bit of character development in the end of T&T. But then the Investigations games decided to go back to how he was before T&T.


How? What is his difference?

I think it's that Larry tried to get his life together at the end of T&T but in AAI he's back to his usual self.
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I just wonder how the stepladder joke is going to be involved.
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OMG All the spoilers tags...
I saw the reddit thread and I'm avoiding all the q's about who's the killer and case 4/5 details.... but some slipped as I was scrolling :sadshoe:

Well... time to call the ol' hiatus until this game is out! I spoiled DD and this time I want to go in to SoJ with untainted eyes.
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My biggest concern is that much of Apollo's past is still in the dark, at least compared to the other two attorneys. Apollo was thrown into the series as his own game, but all we knew in the end was who his mother is and that he and Trucy were actually siblings, which explains their similar capabilities. In DD, we only knew about his relationship with Clay Terran. It was unlike Athena whom was just introduced in DD yet had so much character background and development. XD
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Geo McKarter wrote:
My biggest concern is that much of Apollo's past is still in the dark, at least compared to the other two attorneys. Apollo was thrown into the series as his own game, but all we knew in the end was who his mother is and that he and Trucy were actually siblings, which explains their similar capabilities. In DD, we only knew about his relationship with Clay Terran. It was unlike Athena whom was just introduced in DD yet had so much character background and development. XD

Even though I like Athena, I think she was brought in just so that Eshiro and Yamazaki were like "Hey! We're taking over now! And look! Nick's back! New story! Western fans you can enjoy this too, it's edgey!"

And now they (hopefully) can tie in all the ignored elements of AJ with the current plot they made for DD.
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Geo McKarter wrote:
My biggest concern is that much of Apollo's past is still in the dark, at least compared to the other two attorneys. Apollo was thrown into the series as his own game, but all we knew in the end was who his mother is and that he and Trucy were actually siblings, which explains their similar capabilities. In DD, we only knew about his relationship with Clay Terran. It was unlike Athena whom was just introduced in DD yet had so much character background and development. XD

I'm not sure i agree that Athena's fast character development was unprecedented. Edgeworth went thru his development within the entirety of the first game.

I agree that we were cheated out of more development for Apollo, but if the reddit data mine is to be believed, I doubt it will be a problem for too long.
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Nuh-uh. Edgeworth's development happens over the course of the trilogy and then has a denoument in AAI2. It's true that PWAA is very much about Edgeworth in the larger picture but Edgeworth didn't also have an inordinate amount of screentime as a protagonist and assistant and the sympathetic friend trying to save a childhood defendant throughout an entire case. Athena is just too many roles for one plot. It's as if she had the moment when Edgeworth plays defendant in place of Phoenix or the moment when he comes home and helps Wright solve 2-4 in the same plot as PWAA and it was too much and indeed too fast.

And on a side-note I really disliked her casual introduction. Believe me, I was ready to like Athena. Her design looks good and from the first poster of AA5 I was interested, but when the game came out and I played it, I was very disappointed about how her introduction was handwaved away basically with Phoenix going "Oh, I just picked up a new recruit in Europe". Compare that to Maya in PWAA or Kay in AAI even, and it just pales in comparison.

And finally, like SuperAJ3 says, I too think Athena ended up feeling like a Yamazaki/Eshiro poster-girl among the Takumi-cast. But thank god that I did not feel that about Blackquill or any other character in DD whatsoever. (except I did think Bobby felt like they were trying to mimic Gumshoe)
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I can see why you would say development happened in AAI 1&2I. Not sure i agree about the rest. By the end of AA, he was convinced to pursue the truth. By the end of the first half of 3-4 we had already experienced him as a defense attorney. Other than that, he only appears to help phoenix. I'm not sure he actually changes across the rest of the series.

I'll admit that pacing was better in pwaa,so it felt a little less rushed. The problem with DD was that the developers kept throwing Athenas past in our faces, giving the impression that her development was too fast. Considering that both Edgeworth and Athena underwent the majority of their character development in their first game, I'm not sure they're the different.

I'm not sure what drama you could have added to Athena joining the office however. Does a newbie need that much fanfare?
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linkenski wrote:
And on a side-note I really disliked her casual introduction. Believe me, I was ready to like Athena. Her design looks good and from the first poster of AA5 I was interested, but when the game came out and I played it, I was very disappointed about how her introduction was handwaved away basically with Phoenix going "Oh, I just picked up a new recruit in Europe". Compare that to Maya in PWAA or Kay in AAI even, and it just pales in comparison.

It's Dual Destinies's habit of "tell, don't show," which is my biggest gripe for this game. If we look at other key relationships in the series, we all see them interact in the past (Phoenix and Edgeworth, Mia and Diego). Dual Destinies doesn't do this with Athena and Phoenix and Athena and Simon, but it does do it for Apollo and Clay, oddly enough.
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The major difference between DD's and PWAA's storytelling is that the latter says much more but with less. Not only does DD have a tendency to tell rather than show, it also is a much longer piece of writing and wordier, which is also part of why Athena's story feels worse to me that Edgeworth's.

Another part is themes. A lot of the root causes in DD felt rather unexplained or plastered on where in PWAA we know a theme is how evil the law is and defense attorneys like Mia, Gregory or Phoenix Wright are needed to balance out the Robert Hammonds and Manfred Von Karmas and that those bad people like Miles Edgeworth can be turned around to show that the law can improve if people improve.

Athena's story is about trust and friendship...
Spoiler:
and an awkward mom who made robotic experiments and mentored in martial samurai ways, and a government spy and terror and national security... oh, and a how "bad" the legal system is, because DARK AGE OF THE LAW.


Not only is it incredibly disjointed but it makes all these ideas so clear that by the time you know the plot and can map out the order of events in your head, there's almost nothing left to interpret.
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My biggest concern with this game are the villains. I liked Dual Destinies a lot, but I thought that it had the worst villains in Ace Attorney history, its villains are soooo boring and predictable.

Spoilers for DD's villains:

Spoiler:
First of all, the fact that there were no female murderers. Female killers in Ace Attorney are always very interesting characters, although they abuse the trope of the kind and naïve girl that turns out to be a cold, manipulative b*tch (that's probably why I like Calisto Yew so much, she was so different). DD had strong, interesting female characters like Athena or Aura, but it's always nice to have a female villain or two. I was hoping that Candice Arme turned out to be bad in the backstory, but it was not the case.

But even if all the murderes are male, they can be interesting characters, but that's simply not the case. Ted Tonate was an OK villain for a first case, but I felt that he was too over the top for his own good. L'Belle was really annoying, but not in a good way. You can have nice annoying characters like Larry or Lotta Hart, but L'Belle was simply unbearable, and his motives were so lame that I didn't know if I should hate him or pity him. Aristotle Means was a good villain but it was so obvious that he was the murderer that it wasn't funny to take him down. If that case had another suspicious character I would have liked Means, but it was obvious that neither Hugh, Robin or Myriam were the culprits, so...

And finally, the Phantom was a great idea executed poorly. I would have liked him if he actually was Bobby Fulbright and not some random impersonator. It made the conflict so impersonal, you had no one to hate because you didn't know who he was. Dahlia and Kristoph were great villains because they had ties with other characters. If Dahlia was a random girl who had no real reason to try to kill Phoenix it would have been lame, but the fact that she was his girlfriend made everything better.


I don't know if Spirit of Justice will have better villains than Dual Destinies, but it's not very difficult to do it better than DD in that aspect XD We'll see. The murderer for the first case seems interesting so far, I have to say.
Re: Thoughs/Concerns for GS6Topic%20Title
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"I'm so sick of Khura'in!"

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I don't care that a villain is predictable. I just think DD's villains sucked because like in AAI their motive was shit and pulled out of the writer's ass and didn't even fit into the scenario very well.
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Totally-Not-Miley Omelia Tigre

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Gonna state this for the record: when I said Ace attorney: spirit of justice, it was BEFORE that ended up being the actual name. :p Wonder if they saw this and was inspired?
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"I'm so sick of Khura'in!"

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Fellowzdoomer wrote:
Gonna state this for the record: when I said Ace attorney: spirit of justice, it was BEFORE that ended up being the actual name. :p Wonder if they saw this and was inspired?

They might've been pressed for time and went "Those guys at CR are so clever, let's rip their ideas off!". No offense to anyone of course. We all love you Janet Hsu!

Anyway, my latest concern is due to a datamine spoiler I got (which I can't confirm as it was just mentioned briefly). The spoiler being...
Spoiler: AA6
Two cases, including the second one with the magicians and Trucy is only a one-day trial. Will this mean there's more cases but each one is more meandering and superficial? Or will this mean the tradeoff for having fully examinable investigation portions is less actual investigations? I mean, DGS did it just fine apparently. Should it really be that big of a deal?

This is the Dark Age of the Ace Attorney
Re: Thoughs/Concerns for GS6Topic%20Title

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linkenski wrote:
Fellowzdoomer wrote:
Gonna state this for the record: when I said Ace attorney: spirit of justice, it was BEFORE that ended up being the actual name. :p Wonder if they saw this and was inspired?

They might've been pressed for time and went "Those guys at CR are so clever, let's rip their ideas off!". No offense to anyone of course. We all love you Janet Hsu!

Anyway, my latest concern is due to a datamine spoiler I got (which I can't confirm as it was just mentioned briefly). The spoiler being...
Spoiler: AA6
Two cases, including the second one with the magicians and Trucy is only a one-day trial. Will this mean there's more cases but each one is more meandering and superficial? Or will this mean the tradeoff for having fully examinable investigation portions is less actual investigations? I mean, DGS did it just fine apparently. Should it really be that big of a deal?


Just made my account to say this to clarify...
Spoiler: AA6
No, they're not. There are 5 cases and it's still a 30 hour game. It just so happens that the final case and Case 3 make up a significant portion of the game, not to say 2 and 4 are case 1 length, no they're significantly longer, and not superfical filler, they're great mysteries and the characters seem really nice and relevant, but the MAIN big cases are 3 and 5 but yeah, just clarfication.
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Totally-Not-Miley Omelia Tigre

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Well welcome to the forums I yhope you read the rules before rushing here :p
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Where can I find the datamining?
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Art Person

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RedAbyss wrote:
Where can I find the datamining?

I'm with this guy.
If the raw scripts were ever posted somewhere I'm curious to attempt to read them (Even if my Japanese isn't up to snuff, I at least want to read case 1 and 2 XD Gonna keep the rest a secet.)
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SuperAj3 wrote:
RedAbyss wrote:
Where can I find the datamining?

I'm with this guy.
If the raw scripts were ever posted somewhere I'm curious to attempt to read them (Even if my Japanese isn't up to snuff, I at least want to read case 1 and 2 XD Gonna keep the rest a secet.)


As far as I know, there is no posting of it publicly, someone on Reddit and 4chan answered questions, I believe. In fact I think it was GaspenPayne actually rofl
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SuperAj3 wrote:
RedAbyss wrote:
Where can I find the datamining?

I'm with this guy.
If the raw scripts were ever posted somewhere I'm curious to attempt to read them (Even if my Japanese isn't up to snuff, I at least want to read case 1 and 2 XD Gonna keep the rest a secet.)


https://www.reddit.com/r/AceAttorney/co ... allowed_i/

That is the only page I could find about the datamining. (There are no major culprit or story spoilers there or anything). No idea about the 4chab thread though.
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Geo McKarter wrote:
My biggest concern is that much of Apollo's past is still in the dark, at least compared to the other two attorneys. Apollo was thrown into the series as his own game, but all we knew in the end was who his mother is and that he and Trucy were actually siblings, which explains their similar capabilities. In DD, we only knew about his relationship with Clay Terran. It was unlike Athena whom was just introduced in DD yet had so much character background and development. XD



Spoiler:
.... and now he has 3 fathers, one other sibling, and will apparently stay in Khura'in for the time being XD

This is the best Wright analysis I've ever read
... and this for Apollo...

I am experiencing amnesia and deja vu at the same time; I think I've forgotten this before...
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