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Re: What do you think of Spirit of Justice?Topic%20Title
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Dracarys!

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NinjaMonkey wrote:
Okay, I was overreacting when I labelled the game as "garbage", but I really find those Divination Seances to be very, very frustrating.


I've actually loved those sequences so far and I am a bit disappointed that we probably won't see them a ton in future games, since there's no way a thing like that would pass in a Japanifornia court.
Re: What do you think of Spirit of Justice?Topic%20Title
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Wassup, witchy baby!

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Spoiler:
If I had only six words to summarize the game, it would be these:
Oh, Apollo. My dear, dear Apollo.
Using a few more words than that, however, my opinions are as follows:
I liked the overall plot. Having a new and different location was a fresh move and allowed for a more hands-on quest than the vague "Dark age of the law", and I think this team does better with a clear-cut plot driver. Switching between Khura'in and Japanifornia prevented the game from feeling too heavy (compare PLvsPW with Labyrinthia). The DC act also allowd for a new kind of suspense, even though it in all fairness didn't affect the gameplay per se that much. Splitting the main characters up a bit (save for the last case) was a good move, too. The whole revolution thing was interesting and I would have liked to see a bit more of it in action.
I was never one who needed any backstory for Apollo, but this didn't bother me as I was afraid it would, despite how out of the blue it came. Honestly, what they did with his "I'm fine!" in DD bothered me way more. With AJ feeling like such unfinished business, I'm guessing this is how close to a direct sequel we can come as things are now. His decision to stay in Khura'in was sad but made sense all things considered. I hope he'll have some quality time with Nahyuta and that he and his buddies will visit each other until his supposed return. His scene with Dhurke in the cave is still on my mind, and he and Phoenix had some nice moments too (although I don't get what Apollo has ever done to make him seem untrustworthy in Phoenix' eyes, especially considering Phoenix was the one with the shenanigans in AJ). It was nice with a little Thalassa too and the promis that they'd finally tell Apollo and Trucy the truth. Geez. The end credits having Apollo's theme drove the point home even more, that this was ultimately his game, and it gave me pretty much the same feeling as the end of AJ, which gave a nice (and slightly sentimental) feeling of at least partial closure.
Having spoken at length about Apollo, I'll go on for a bit longer. I didn't like at all how they wrote him in DD, an yet I was excited for his return here, and on good grounds, it seems. They actually manged to redeem him and feel like Apollo again, and I'm very relieved as this was a big deal for me. Surely he ocassionally fell victim of the Yamazaki cheesyness, but I expected that much and I can live with it.
Phoenix too gave me a way better feeling here than in DD, as did Athena. Although with her, it was probably more the way she was shoved into the game than her character itself that was my problem, so it figures. Trucy didn't give me that feeling of cool as she did in AJ, but it could have been way worse, as seen in DD.
It was neat seeing Simon in a more casual situation and I really liked him as an aid. His appearence reminded meof how much I like him. I was also pleased with Ema and how they managed to give her a little character development without ruining her character or changing her personality. I was also pleased with Pearl and Edgeworth, even though they didn't have that much of a purpose besides fanservice. On the other hand, Edgeworth giving his opinion on the Plumed Punisher is reason enough, and I like how Pearl seemed to be starting to grow up a little. The same can't be said about Maya. While 'm glad she was still Maya, she could have been so without being all but exactly the same as when we last saw her nine years ago. Especially since she also looked pretty much the same. (And really, she just had to be both accused and held hostage again, didn't she?)
I dont feel that we got to know the one case-characters that much, although I did like them for what they were. Overall the cast was good, I liked most characters. Nahyuta, though, felt a bit too rude for my tastes, and I don't really buy that he was doing everything he did only because of the blackmailing, as there was no real reason, especially while abroad, for him to be such a bitch. He had some redeeming moments, though, such as reciting "Time soba", giving silly nicknames and talking about the equally silly levels of hell, all with a straight face. I didn't trust Ga'ran from the beginning, and although her being the final villain made all sorts of sens, and facing her as the prosecutor was cool, it felt obvious where it was heading from the moment she stepped to the prosecutor's bench, and that transformation on top of it just hammered it in. They might as well have put a sign on her forehead saying "I'm the bad guy".
I haven't played DD but I got the impression the investigations were better here, but I'm not too fond of how the game pretty much tells you what to do, shows what should be investigated and tells you when you're done investiating the area. On one hand, it makes it way neater than just hopping around cluelessly, on the other hand I would like to at least feel as if I'm doing the investigating myself rather than following a predestined path. The mechanics worked well, I really liked the thought route. The Divination séance was a cool idea, but I don't know how many times I ran out of badges during them. I felt like the things you were supposed to point out were slightly vague at times, but I don't know.
The game looks great. I liked the character designs, apart from Ga'ran's Disney/comic book villain-look that felt exaggerated and stood out too much compared to the other characters. I think it was something with the colours, and really, floating hair...? I was especially fond of Nahyuta's and Ouendo & co.'s animations, and overall they felt better executed than in DD. Less uncanny, although there were some of that here as well. I loved the backgrounds with their little moving details, the divination séance looked great as well, as did the water in the cave and the psycho-locks in 3D. There seemed to be this creative joy in the whole game, both in looks and execution: they utilized the 3D animations well and did their own thing with it, at some points it almost felt like some adventure game, and I very much appreciated this as it set the game apart from previous ones rather than, like DD feeling more like a bleaker and clumsier version of the triloy + AJ. I prefer the, relatively, more realistic satiric kind of thing Takumi did over the lawyer-themed action-fairytale it has gradually become, but that's the thing: this isn't Takumi, nor did I expect it to be, nor does it even try to be, SoJ is its own thing and it is a good one, a huge step up from DD, and a worthy successor of the previous games. And for that reason I hope this will be the final one, because it would be a good and worthy way to end.

(......Ack! I've run out of snide comments!)
Re: What do you think of Spirit of Justice?Topic%20Title
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About the seances: I friggin' loved the mechanic. I mostly play the games because I love mystery fiction, and the mechanic really brought something new and exciting to mystery fiction, while still being soundly based on the core mechanics of the series. It's seldom you see something as original. The only problem I have with the mechanic is that it does feel out of place, compared to the earlier games. I think the mechanic, and the whole setting behind it, would've worked much better in its own spin-off title (similar to DGS and Joint Reasoning), rather than in the sixth entry of a series.
"One dumbbell, Watson! Consider an athlete with one dumbbell! Picture to yourself the unilateral development, the imminent danger of a spinal curvature. Shocking, Watson, shocking!" - The Valley of Fear
Re: What do you think of Spirit of Justice?Topic%20Title
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Dracarys!

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Ash wrote:
The only problem I have with the mechanic is that it does feel out of place, compared to the earlier games. I think the mechanic, and the whole setting behind it, would've worked much better in its own spin-off title (similar to DGS and Joint Reasoning), rather than in the sixth entry of a series.


It does feel a bit out of place, but then again this story takes place in a country whose entire culture is built around communicating with the dead. It's essentially just taking spirit channeling and giving it a form that you can interact with during gameplay.
Re: What do you think of Spirit of Justice?Topic%20Title
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Ropfa wrote:
It does feel a bit out of place, but then again this story takes place in a country whose entire culture is built around communicating with the dead. It's essentially just taking spirit channeling and giving it a form that you can interact with during gameplay.

Yeah, but what I meant is, the whole setting feels out of place as a the main setting in a game in the main series ;) The concept and mechanic, all absolutely awesome, but my question is: was this the best place to use the whole conept, or could it perhaps have even worked better in a setting less strongly connected to the main story?
"One dumbbell, Watson! Consider an athlete with one dumbbell! Picture to yourself the unilateral development, the imminent danger of a spinal curvature. Shocking, Watson, shocking!" - The Valley of Fear
Re: What do you think of Spirit of Justice?Topic%20Title
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I've quite literally just finished playing the game. I think it was a lot of fun and a pretty good improvement over DD in almost every area, and I liked DD, so...

I can see how someone would think that's too over-the-top /out-there /out of place for a AA game, though.

My thoughts other than that...

Spoiler: Probably big spoilers of this game and maybe every other one.
Sargeant Buff was my favorite character in the game.

Dazt is Khurain'ese Larry. I fear the day they met.

Retinz apparently was trying hard to prove he's a real Gramarye by pulling more jerkassery in a single case than probably anyone else in the franchise.

If Maya was only going to be a plot device, why put her in the box of the game? I mean, she isn't even an investigation partner. Shame on you, guys.

This game felt more "adult" somehow, what with the actual alcohol and everything, and I think I saw some dirty jokes here and there.

Several character's designs were inspired by religious figures, right? It can't be a coincidence.

Case 4 was the most fillery thing ever. I don't think it was bad, simply out of place. Playing it felt literally like watching some anime filler episode. I bet this is going to be the one that gets all the hate.

I think this game could have used more characters. I felt like the cast for each case was quite small. I'd appreciate if there were more one-off characters or a couple of cameos or something.

Also, it's just me or they put the plot of every previous game into a blender to make this one? I mean, we have an obviously evil prosecutor as the final boss and a prosecutor strayed from the path that we have to save like in PW:AA, a teenager antagonist that tries to be serious but it's actually pretty childish and Maya getting kidnapped to manipulate Phoenix like in JfA, a lawyer coming into his own, a couple of evil & good sisters that switch places and channeling used as part of the mystery like in T&T, a lawyer accused falsely of fabricating evidence and someone collapsing on the stand right before revealing the real killer identity like in AJ, a screwed-up legal system that needs to be changed like in DD and even an enemy who surpasses the law and the assistant of the antagonist that looks like it's going to be the final boss but actually isn't like in AAI. With all the references to past entries this game throws, I think it may be on purpose.


Last edited by luck on Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: What do you think of Spirit of Justice?Topic%20Title
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Enoshima Junko-chan!

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Spoiler: Apollo
I think Apollo has surpassed Phoenix as a lawyer in this game. Now Phoenix and Athena need to step it up.

11037
Re: What do you think of Spirit of Justice?Topic%20Title
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Spoiler: Entire game
I'm biased because I (clearly) love Apollo as a character, but I thought this game was excellent. I think it's probably one of the best games in the series. The storytelling had me constantly on edge, it was like playing a page-turner mystery novel. I thought it was really exciting to see the game dig deep into character backgrounds and I liked how everything was tied together. It reminded me a bit of what made T&T so great. My only gripe is probably that there wasn't a lot of Athena, but AA5 was kind of "her game" so to speak, while this one was Apollo's. I'm still beyond frustrated that we STILL haven't seen Apollo and Trucy be told they're related yet.
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Now that I actually have it -- and, in fact, have already beaten it -- I have to say: Other than the fingerprinting parts (quite the downgrade from how they were in Rise From The Ashes and Apollo Justice, I must say), I thought it was definitely worth that $30.
Re: What do you think of Spirit of Justice?Topic%20Title
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I just finished the first trial of 6-5 (and am about 10 minutes into the second investigation) and so far I'm loving the case. I thought cases 1-3 were really great, but while I thought case 4 was pretty good
Spoiler: Case 4
it just seemed out of place (it almost would have been a better DLC, post-SoJ case to me, as it kind of left Athena where Apollo was at the end of 4-4 and where Phoenix was at 1-2 - succeeding at a trial which emotionally left her ready to work on her own rather than as the constant student).
This case is back to the interest level I was at before.

I have so much to say, even though I'm only half way into the game, but I'm hesitant to start posting a bunch in the individual case discussion groups until I beat the game and have a complete view of what happened
Spoiler: 6-5
(I know from what I've heard the latter half of 6-5 is the "controversial" part which people seem to really like or dislike).
I feel like much with 3-5, 4-4, etc. there's going to be a lot to dissect and debate about with this case over the years. Here are some general thoughts: (Note: based on my experience, it seems like this is kind of reflecting on the last few games like T&T did with the original trilogy, so I'm looking at this as the conclusion of the sequel trilogy. If you don't agree with that then your interpretation might be different, of course.)

Spoiler: 6-5 1st investigation, 1st trial, and 5 minutes into 2nd investigation segment
*Much like 6-2, I think the investigation did a good job of getting the "AJ" vibe across. I like how focused on Apollo and his reactions to everything going on around him the case is.

*Some might call the return to Kurain Village fan-service, and it no doubt is, but I think in the final case of an AA game (especially one focused around the supposed "starting point" for Kurain and the end to the sequel trilogy) I think return to the village was warranted. While I dig the whole Khurain concept, I always felt like it's relation/difference between it and Kurain village should be explored in detail because - let's face it - the switch from Kurain Village being a small branch of Spirit Mediums to a whole country where it's not considered paranormal at all is a bit of a contrived way to expand the lore. I think by returning to the village (even if it is not very "important" to the story) it kind of acknowledges that Kurain Village is still different and (perhaps more) important.

*I really loved the whole cave scene, for a lot of reasons. I really like Dhurke and Apollo's interplay, and I was surprisingly moved by the little "wrap-up" of Apollo's career relating to Kristoph's trial, Klavier, etc. It does make the game start to really feel like a send-off to the AJ era and a conclusion to these characters' development over the last few games. I kind of wish it had been a little more reflective and longer, but it might start to feel more like mourning or something and it might be me just being sentimental to the characters of this era.

*Speaking of mourning, I thought the part where Apollo almost drowns was really well done. The AA franchise has done things like this before, but often I feel like in AA (both due to the format and the writers) when possibly tragic or fatal things happen to the characters it tends to not be emotional or introspective but just high-stress (ex. the kind of scene where JFA's "hotline of fate" would play). The drowning scene began that way but there was a good period where Apollo almost started to accept that he might die and began reflecting on the time Dhurke rescued him. It was different (in my opinion) more meaningful than to just have him panic and then pass out without any thought. I actually thought he might die and that might be the controversial part of the case. The aforementioned "wrap-up" discussion gave more likelihood of this to me, although I'm glad it didn't happen.

*I thought the Phoenix/Apollo conflict was well-done, although when it seemed out-of-character I had assumed that it would be explained later, which it was. To me, despite the later explanation that it was done against Phoenix's will, it brought back feelings I had about their relationship in AJ. In AJ, Phoenix was encouraging but also shady, devious, and murky in terms of what Apollo considered "good behavior". post-disbarment Phoenix was a good guy but one who had no issue making Apollo frustrated if Phoenix didn't feel the time was right to let him in on what was going on. Because of this, I always felt Apollo and Phoenix had a weird relationship, where Apollo in some ways idolized him and looked up to his sense of justice, but also considered him a weirdo who sometimes used shady methods. I felt like this was lost a bit in DD. From Apollo's perspective, I do think Nick acted more like his AJ self than his AA1-3 personality, but he lost that deviousness and was just a really supportive mentor. I accepted this but was sad to see that aspect of Nick's personality go. I think he showed that again here (even if he was forced to act this way). The DD Phoenix might have been a little more apologetic or nice to Apollo about what was going on, but this echoed the AJ Phoenix to me - he knew what he had to do, and if Apollo was going to get in the way he'd do what he had to do (with the hope of patching things up again). I wish we'd seen a little more "Dark Phoenix" in DD, but I think that's an unpopular opinion so I wouldn't be surprised if Nick being a jerk here gets some criticism.

*I also think it was an interesting inversion of perspective from 2-4, in which Maya was kidnapped as well. In some ways I wish they would have made it a little more different, but since we're seeing it from the "other side" (in some ways Apollo is similar to Edgeworth in 2-4) I accepted it. However, I didn't really buy that just because they needed a spirit medium that Maya would be safe and they could convict Paul. Considering the Queen of Khurain is a medium and there are other Kurain Village mediums, it doesn't work as well as a reason why she's safe now. However, I haven't played the rest of the case, so maybe this will make more sense later on.

* I'm assuming at this point Klavier won't be here. It's kind of disappointing to not see him at the end of the trilogy as he is kind of Apollo's Edgeworth. I kind of wish rather than put him in DD for a small cameo they would have done that here instead; I would have excused his likely irrelevance to the plot because I knew that it was wrapping up (similar to how Franziska came back in 3-5). More on this in the next spoiler box.

*I think it's a little fan-servicy to have Edgeworth show up randomly and book them all a plane to Khurain. But once again that's kind of expected in the character "wrap-up" of the last two games. Too bad Trucy's not coming (more on this in the next spoiler box)


Spoiler: Probable spoilers for later on in case and end - don't read unless you've beat the game
As always, I'm making inferences on things I don't know about yet just on hints I've heard, so please don't tell me any spoilers.

I'm pretty sure of these things:

*Apollo will be the focus somehow of the remainder of the case and will leave the series in some form or another after it (based on spoiler tag titles and the fact that it's hinted that a character is absent in the DLC case)

*It will relate to Jove Justice (Apollo's Father), and Thalassa Gramarye will have some kind of "presence" on the events to come (based on people saying she's "kind of" in the game. No idea if Trucy and Apollo will finally find out they're related, though. That would suck if it never came up but on the other hand the fact that Takumi pulled the random "we won't tell them yet about this super important thing for no reason" kind of sucks too, so I wouldn't just blame this new team, because it's a really uninteresting "shock surprise" that the audience already knows but has been built up into this trilogy's biggest "unanswered plot thread".

With that in mind, I thought what they did so far was a good send off to Apollo. He reflected on his life, his career, and he beat his mentor in court - he basically is now at the level Phoenix was at the end of 3-5. I'm interested in what the big "WTF" moment is (I'm hoping to beat the game this weekend" but so far I'm satisfied with this being Apollo's final case. Two exceptions:

*As I said, Klavier not being back for Justice's final story is kind of a disappointment, especially because an appearance here would have been more meaningful than in DD, but on the other hand I don't know where they would have fit him in.

*Trucy not coming to Khurain was disappointing, too. Although "in the story" it makes sense, if this is it for Apollo I think she's an important part of his life and should be integral to his final investigations. I would have liked another case where she was the main sidekick the whole case with him, although it wouldn't have worked in the trial (and I think her reaction to the trial was better than if she had taken one side or another). Basically, I hope she gets the attention she deserves in relation to his story's conclusion.

We'll see what happens!

Once again, please don't tell me any spoilers! This is more for those of you who've completed it (and myself later on) to look at what I'm guessing at and either consider me a genius for predicting everything or laughing at how wrong I am :edgey:

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Re: What do you think of Spirit of Justice?Topic%20Title
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Getting closer to the end, I must say I felt in parts this game had a lot of potential and I genuinely enjoyed about half of case 5 for doing things that felt fresh and daring, but the more you start getting answers, once again, I feel the original ideas in this game aren't really allowed to flourish because elements from previous games's storylines keep creeping in in places where it feels like the writers copped out of being creative. I mean, in essence the big difference between this game and DD in the end seems to be that SoJ has a bigger and more varied repertoire of previous game plot-points it steals to shape up its own plot, and it wouldn't be a problem if it stole previous elements and made them interesting in its own SoJ kind of way, but it doesn't, it simply doesn't. Once again, I feel like the mysteries don't pay off because when you get the answers you realize a lot of subplots come out empty handed. Biggest one is Nahyuta for reasons I'll expand upon when I'm fully done. But as for the rest, I would've been impressed (maybe) with what they're doing with Apollo if it wasn't for the fact that it feels like they wrote everything this way because of the plot in AJAA sharing similar elements.

In the end I think the game is what I expected it to be, but it was good for sanity because I also realize that I can be too harsh on Yamazaki when I often talk about his games as if nothing in them works. That's not really how I feel after all, it's just that as a whole these stories waste a lot of your time with ideas that don't exactly have as big of a purpose as the mystery lets on, and I feel that used to be the opposite in this series. I can't think of anything in the first three games where some mystery felt really promising but ended up making me disappointed. I feel like a lot of things in DD felt really daring and exciting, like Apollo and his weird getup or his apparent departure as shown in the trailers, but that didn't amount to nearly as much as you had been let to believe because it was completely safe and the reason it happened in the first place wasn't even that interesting in the end. It's the same here. Answers just come up kinda short. Unlike AJAA It's not in that ambiguous "Am I supposed to feel this way?" feeling, it's more like everything becomes transparent when everything is over, and on a second playthrough everything seems more artificial, because some of the big root causes in the plot are completely contrived.

Thematically the game has a lot of merit though, and that's where the mastery of the plot lies in, just like Dual Destinies but it's not really anything to write home about, because it wasn't exactly subtle to begin with. I wasn't even halfway through the game before I realized what the message of the game was supposed to be, and sometimes that theme is even forced where it doesn't stick (like in case 4), and unless it subverts it in the last minute that experience remains intact, and I don't really think it's all that thought provoking in the end. That said, there were moments in the game of introspective writing where I feel Yamazaki's penmanship really shined just like how DD actually had some really good dialogue in the investigation portion of its finale. All in all, this feels kinda like the run of the mill sequel to Dual Destinies. It's improved in almost every way, but it retains the same pitfalls and doesn't really change anything significant about the formula established.

And as a last thing, I think as always despite the flaws it shows that the people who made this game was 100% dedicated to it and that's why even though I don't really like the game that much in the end, I just can't help but admit I think it's well-made and masterfully constructed. I think Yamazaki wastes a lot of time on story development that don't really have much to say, but at least him and his cohorts seem to have been working full force on every detail to the best of their ability and the result is that even the redundant or pointless developments at least feel like they were made in goodwill and the naive belief that they would amount to something great, and IMO that's how you gotta do it; do your best even if you're not completely certain it will work. The end result has still been quite enjoyable. :jake:
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Re: What do you think of Spirit of Justice?Topic%20Title
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I actually really liked it, but the ending made me sad :' )
What I liked : You can finally investigate freely (since aa5 only let you investigate certain locations), 3D animation improved, good storyline, anime art is better, etc
What I didn't like : Not many cutscenes this time.
Also I used to like examining evidence (looking for fingerprints) in AA1-aa4, but in aa6 it made me really pissed bc it was really hard to find the fingerprints :(
Overall it was pretty good. I was pretty stressed during the Divination Séance tho. I hate to admit it but I had to use a walkthrough for them because it was too difficult.
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I was honestly really disappointed in Spirit of Justice. I thought the game had a lot of potential that was simply not built upon. The entire game felt like one Deus Ex Machina plot point after another.

Spoiler:
If the main focus of the game really was Apollo Justice, why was there not more tie-ins with AJ:AA's storyline of being mentored by Kristoph Gavin, and the like? It seems totally shoehorned in out of nowhere that Apollo happened to be raised in Khurain by a foster father who we had never heard of before, and Apollo just happened to be essentially brothers with the lead prosecutor on all of the cases, who seems to be completely passive about the entire thing. Oh yeah, the princess? She's his sister. And by the way, Dhurke, the revolutionary figure who is hyped up as a real menace and a scary guy, is pidgeonholed as a complete jokester without a care in the world...oh yeah and he's Apollo's Foster Father who raised him for ten years and the husband of the Queen and royalty and so on. What? We don't even get to see a glimpse of this guy until the final case and we get thrown into a ton of family drama with no buildup at all to why these characters even matter in the grand scheme of things. Compare this to the Fey family, or Edgeworth's relationship with Manfred, and then Franziska. Far better writing in the original trilogy. They weren't able to build up the connections well in this one. It should have been more connected to the Fey clan rather than Apollo in my opinion.

Also, Apollo's first game essentially becomes meaningless. Kristoph may as well have never existed as a developing character. The Troupe Gramarye, who also happens to be Apollo and Trucy's mother gets one line in the entire game after getting an entire game of plot development. That was a sad leaveout. Apollo had so much potential for connections after the first game, but I feel like Athena being the focus of PW:DD made Apollo an afterthought, and then they had to wrap up his storyline, so they did it all in one game. Athena truth be told, rather than being created to push a new in-game device akin to the Magatama and Perceive, should have never existed, and Apollo should have been the main focus of "Game 2" in his trilogy to build up all of the characters in this game and culminate in a final game that could have still ended with him staying in Khurain.

Case 4 is to me, one of the worst filler cases of the whole series. There's not a single memorable or connected character in the whole case. It should have been saved as Case 1 for Athena Cykes: Ace Attorney when it comes out in 2019, not as Case 4 for this game. The motive was horrible and uninspired, and it was just a long, drawn-out case with no prior connections. I would have loved to have seen a Case 4 that was playing as Dhurke defending his innocence for attempting to burn down the Queens' residence and kill her. That would have made for a fantastic Case 4!

Of the bigger spoilers, Dhurke being dead the entire time was a pretty cool twist admittedly. But with Queen Amara being alive the whole time, and THEN shooting the once-dead, now alive Queen after her testimony was a ridiculous attempt at prolonging the suspense of the trial, and we barely get a resolve to that sudden plot twist. The final villain being the Queen/Prosecutor right at the beginning of the case kills any suspicion of who the actual big bad murderer is in the game, compared to T&T where Godot being the culprit remains the greatest plot twist in the series by far. Again, it felt so pidgeonholed in to the point where I was playing simply to figure out how she killed all of those people, which is just not fun.

Also, I fail to understand why the Founder's Orb was never actually used to channel the Holy Mother? I was honestly expecting the entire time for Maya Fey to channel her and become the new ruler of Khurain nation. That seemed far more plausible and satisfying considering how much the Founder's Orb was a part of the game. Instead, we waste time looking for the thing in investigation, and never got even a taste of what the power of the Orb was after all of that hype. What was the point of even looking for it?

And overall, the use of the channeling technique and divination seance to supply almost all of the motives, evidence, and contradictions in the game was a hindrance to the plausibility of the plot. Do I need to know the ins and outs of an in-game religion to spot the contradictions in testimony on the stand? It felt so ridiculous, that the PW world was crumbling under its own weight, after the first three games built up this healthy skepticism of everything going on around them, which made it a lot easier to view what was happening in the world as plausible. In SoJ, nothing really seemed plausible even in a fantasy setting. A judge who seems completely detatched from the political realm, revolutionaries who are total jokesters, and a Queen and Foreign Minister who act about as threatening as the villains from Rocky and Bullwinkle. For a game where murder is so abound, it started feeling, less like Law & Order, and more like Murder, She Wrote, where the constant murdering of individuals who happened to be mysteriously connected in some way to one another got more and more farfetched.


Overall, Spirit of Justice in my opinion, is not worth playing in the overall context of the series. I think it really damaged the character building of Apollo as a whole, and the integrity of plausibility of the cases in the series. I was very disappointed.
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FenrirDarkWolf wrote:
My gripe with the fingerprinting mechanic was that it made my sister's 2DS lag, combined with the fact that my fans constantly blowing on me made it hard to get a lot done.

Oh my god, this so much. I happened to be the passenger in a car at two different times that the print-dusting segments came up. Now they're not fun at the best of times, but when you have a constant background noise they become physically impossible. The 3DS will pick up the background noise and interpret it as you blowing into the mic to get rid of the powder. I wish there was a way to turn off the mic or something. It's not the first DS/3DS game to have this problem though.
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Baloo wrote:
Spoiler:
I would have loved to have seen a Case 4 that was playing as Dhurke defending his innocence for attempting to burn down the Queens' residence and kill her. That would have made for a fantastic Case 4!

Spoiler:
It would have been reminiscent of 3-4, having the same twist in which you lose in the end. That's something I can get on board since 6-4 could be removed and it would affect absolutely nothing.

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Wow. So I finished. I really really really liked it, although I had some issues.

This game really was reminiscent of T&T to me, and it definitely feels like they're trying to wrap up this "trilogy" the same way that Takumi used to T&T to try and form an original trilogy. I think so far (and of course my opinion will change on replays) it's on par with T&T to me, meaning it would be my 3rd or 4rth favorite game (AJ and AA are the first to), because while I felt T&T was better in terms of cohesiveness, I liked 6-2 and 6-3 better than 3-2 and 3-3 and this one did a lot of cool things.

Well, for one thing, I was wrong on how I expected the trial to go:
Spoiler: 6-5/end spoilers
I thought the whole thing was going to be very focused on Apollo and his family, and I figured Thalassa would be involved in some weird way and I thought they might show he and Trucy finally finding out that they're siblings. It ended up being a trial that didn't really have anything to do with that (even the role of Jove's murder was covered for only a couple of minutes). But it was in my opinion a really great trial none the less. I didn't expect that Dhurke had been dead at all. The villain was over the top but I think it still worked in the tone of the series at this point.


Some complaints:
Spoiler: 6-2, end
* I know there wasn't really any reason to, but I was really expecting them to use the Founder's Orb. Was disappointed that didn't happen only because it had been talked about so much. It wouldn't have really changed the story or helped at all, though.

*I thought it was significant that this was the firs time Wright was co counsel behind the bench since Apollo's first trial, and it would have been nice for the characters to become aware of that and possibly even get a little nostalgic or something or make a little comment about it.

*Just like with DD, I really wish Phoenix would outwardly show a little more awareness of his role as a father. If Apollo's doing the case, Phoenix arguably shouldn't be risking his life as assistant when he has a daugther - Something like Apollo mentioning this and Phoenix sticking with him anyway because he believes him or some other AA tagline. I think they did a good job with Trucy as a character this time but the writers still try to bypass that whole plot arc, I think because it gets the narrative complicated when a lot of people are in trouble, but they still should have made him a little more concerned about that stuff.


Spoiler: Ending thoughts
The ending was weird for me, as it made me realize that Apollo's story actually has concluded. With DD I didn't get this because everyone was left exactly how they were before, but after the ending of this game that 8th grade version of me who first played AJ came back and I felt a weird mix of emotions.

I think the ending was good, and I think Apollo staying actually is a good ending. He's proven that he can succeed on his own now, and I think it fits his character (especially his AJ character, who didn't fawn over Mr. Wright and bless the chance to be a part of his law firm every single second like a lot of characters do). I would be satisfied if he never came back into the series - in fact, I hope they be very careful about how they bring him back, because I'd rather him leave the franchise with the ending we got rather than have him come back for 15 minutes every game like Edgeworth does.

I think the goodbye was well-written, too, although I wish he and Trucy had had a little more dialogue/goodbyes before they all went home. (I might be a broken record about Trucy and Apollo, but they were the "original team" for this trilogy, as well as for a lot of fans who started on AJ like me. Maya and Phoenix had plenty of character wrap-up in T&T and I would have liked a little more for them here. Overall though, I liked the ending a lot and am satisfied with Apollo's arc.


Spoiler: thoughts on the post-credits scene
I thought the ending scene with Thalassa was alright. I was browsing the gamefaq forums and a lot of people are taking this as a cliffhanger for the reveal to happen in a future game. To me this felt a little more like this was all we were getting. Now we know that they are going to be told - for all we know Trucy already knows in the DLC case (although they'll never mention it, I'm sure. I don't think they're going to do anything else with it because it's going to take a lot of setup, explanation, and aftermath for something that A) the audience already knows, and B) that won't really change the character dynamic much.

Here is what the plot thread would look like:

Trucy: Apollo be my assistant so I can I can cut you in half
Apollo: not really but ok
BIG COMPLICATED CASE: Lamiroir dies/falls ill/goes to Applebee's and is unsatisfied with meal
THINGS DEVELOP
Phoenix and/or Lamiroir: This happened because...I'm/she's your mother. You're siblings
SUSPENSE MUSIC PLAYS
2 hours worth of characters feeling emotional, sad, betrayed, happy, reflecting on life
Apollo: So I guess we're siblings, a biological term for the relationship we seem to have with each other emotionally anyway.
Trucy: Yeah. Apollo be my assistant so I can cut you in half
Apollo: not really but ok

So it would be really hard to develop it further without trying to make some big contrived case where it all comes together. Like I said, it wouldn't really change anything, so I'm more than satisfied with knowing that at some point they were told post SoJ (and if there are any future games they could always just mention that they know now.


I'll have more to say when I'm less tired, but basically I thought it was great. I feel mixed about it coming to an end, which means it did a good job as an ending. I'm interested to see what the DLC case will do.
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Last edited by D.A. McCoy on Tue Sep 27, 2016 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: What do you think of Spirit of Justice?Topic%20Title
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^ Careful with how you label your spoilers.

D.A. McCoy wrote:
Spoiler: thoughts on THAT scene
I thought the ending scene with Thalassa was alright. I was browsing the gamefaq forums and a lot of people are taking this as a cliffhanger for the reveal to happen in a future game. To me this felt a little more like this was all we were getting. Now we know that they are going to be told - for all we know Trucy already knows in the DLC case (although they'll never mention it, I'm sure. I don't think they're going to do anything else with it because it's going to take a lot of setup, explanation, and aftermath for something that A) the audience already knows, and B) that won't really change the character dynamic much.

Pretty much my viewpoint since I finished AJ several years ago. Considering that Yamazaki was part of the writing team for that game, it's no surprise he himself would believe there's not much else to pull from that plot point. While it could work for a case, it's not enough to fill a whole game, and when it comes to story games, there has to be a theme tying it all together.

Quote:
Spoiler:
Here is what the plot thread would look like:

Trucy: Apollo be my assistant so I can I can cut you in half
Apollo: not really but ok
BIG COMPLICATED CASE: Lamiroir dies/falls ill/goes to Applebee's and is unsatisfied with meal
THINGS DEVELOP
Phoenix and/or Lamiroir: This happened because...I'm/she's your mother. You're siblings
SUSPENSE MUSIC PLAYS
2 hours worth of characters feeling emotional, sad, betrayed, happy, reflecting on life
Apollo: So I guess we're siblings, a biological term for the relationship we seem to have with each other emotionally anyway.
Trucy: Yeah. Apollo be my assistant so I can cut you in half
Apollo: not really but ok

D.A. McCoy, please. You are tempting my inner fanfic writer, and I worry about that side of me.
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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
^ Careful with how you label your spoilers.


Thanks! Realized the first one was kind of vague. Cleared it up.

Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
Pretty much my viewpoint since I finished AJ several years ago. Considering that Yamazaki was part of the writing team for that game, it's no surprise he himself would believe there's not much else to pull from that plot point. While it could work for a case, it's not enough to fill a whole game, and when it comes to story games, there has to be a theme tying it all together.


Spoiler: more on this the topic
Also, I feel like the conflict that would arise from it especially relating to Phoenix not telling would be too much work for the narrative to go through since in the end Trucy and Apollo's relationship is going to be the same anyway. It's the emotional equivalent of wanting a Coke and getting a Pepsi. It might cause a big deal but in the end it's all going to be the same.


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D.A. McCoy wrote:
Spoiler: thoughts on the post-credits scene
I thought the ending scene with Thalassa was alright. I was browsing the gamefaq forums and a lot of people are taking this as a cliffhanger for the reveal to happen in a future game. To me this felt a little more like this was all we were getting. Now we know that they are going to be told - for all we know Trucy already knows in the DLC case (although they'll never mention it, I'm sure. I don't think they're going to do anything else with it because it's going to take a lot of setup, explanation, and aftermath for something that A) the audience already knows, and B) that won't really change the character dynamic much.


Spoiler:
I wouldn't mind if the next game would again feature a post-credits scene, which would reveal that Apollo and Trucy already knew they were siblings throughout that game. So that they'd have ambigeous dialogue that take on a different meaning when the players knows THEY know too. Then you could still have a 'surprise' twist for the player and not just repeating something the player already knows, and w/o blowing it all up just for the sake of it.

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Welp, its probably my favourite game in the entire series.Which is not to say it doesn't have problems.

It helps that I consider some of the stuff people here call cons as pros.

Spoilers for the whole game:

Spoiler:
Pros: the length (a bigger, more complicated game means I get more worth out of my money), especially the fact it does not have 4 or 5 cases, but essentially 6 (case 5 is 2 cases masqueraded as one), the seanse, the character development of everyone (the Athena case seems to hint that they focus on a bigger, mythos arc too), the case 3 twist (whoa, prolly best non final case of the series, imo) the case 5 twist (Dhurke was dead, not the villain, the villain was obvious) the dislikability of the main villain (when you go from whodunit to howdunit and the villain is not sympathetic, its imperaive forr him/her to be as hateable as possible), the cases in general (I felt it has the most interesting villain lineup, though not the most interesting villain, out of all games... and I say "not the most interesting villain" only because case 3 cannot be considered with the murderer as a villain), a real application of the game's supernatural into the mystery plot (ssomething I wanted since game one, if you have the supernatural, do not let it be so divorced from the mysteries. It was kind of divorced even in 1 of the cases where it was relevant,2-2, it only became relevant in 3-5, and even there, not as much as it could), the way the final arc ends with them destroying the system via a legal loop rather than just proving the enemy guilty (immensely satisfying), the fact it had hands down the best villain breakdown lineup (though not the best villain breakdown, that goes to DD-5), the fact you felt you were against all odds again thanks to the gallery and legal system.

cons:does anyone like fingerprints? I think we all agree they dropped the ball on this one, the lack of understanding of what the concept of "martyr" does to a revolution, bloody or not (seriously, I know the games are satire, but this irked me to no end), the obviousness of the final villain (even though Amara did confuse me a litle), Nahyuta being too extreme and not humorous enough, (Yes, I liked the against all odds feel, but thats no excuse to commit to worse physical attacks than Franzisca, one of which didn't allow me to object, or to lack humour, for that matter), and the fact that they had ample opportunity to reject the "good family good person/bad family bad person" mentality, only to do an (admitedly interesting for mystery purposes) bait and switch. (Heck, they did it well enough with Pearl , couldn't they do it with the princess too? Fake Daddy obviously loved her, as depraved as he was.)
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D.A. McCoy wrote:
Quote:
D.A. McCoy, please. You are tempting my inner fanfic writer, and I worry about that side of me.


Do it! We need this tale told!

I think I started something I'm going to regret.
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Just something a little I feel, and the latter has already been discussed before, but
I feel like 6-2 could be a "final case" sort to AJ:AA and 6-4 serves as a nice epilogue to Athena's and Blackquill's development in DD.
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Spoiler: For the whole game plus maybe AJAA
So I guess I'll just write my feelings towards this game here cause honestly I'm feeling a bit strange right now. (I just finished playing.)
Anyways, to put it simply, I think I actually enjoyed the game, with its definitely entertaining portions and honestly quite entertaining overall storyline. Honestly I went into the game thinking I would hate it (I'm actually a bigger fan of Takumi than Yamazaki), especially regarding how they handle Apollo since AJAA. (Anyways, I'm one of the few who actually really enjoyed AJAA haha!)

Things I liked
- This team is really quite good at making funny and interesting characters!! I particularly loved Datz, Sarge, and enjoyed the creativity in creating characters such as the Paul Atishon and Uendo. (Also, I feel kinda cheated that they hinted something about Datz and Sarge getting along, and I was hoping they would do so during the credits but I guess Datz is too busy with the revolution and Sarge for some reason is suddenly into archaeology.) And who can forget the fantastic musical testimony in Case 1 also!
- I enjoyed the story in general, particularly the second half of Case 3 (maybe cause of Datz I'm not sure), and some portions of Case 5.
- I didn't like that Maya was returning, but I guess her role in terms of spirit channeling made sense. (Even if she became accused of murder again, and got kidnapped again.) Also enjoyed Ema's return!

Things I didn't like
- The pacing in this game was honestly quite horrible, particularly the dialogues. The characters keep repeating the same things over and over again, and a lot of unnecessary talking such as for some reason we need the witness, prosecutor, judge then ourselves to ask us if we have evidence before we actually present anything. (I'm not sure if you all will get this sentence.) Also, I find certain things cheesy easily so things like 'A dragon never yields' or something about the lawyer smiling in the toughest times for me if repeated too often becomes a little annoying. In particular, I found Case 1, Case 5 a little frustrating to go through.
- Case 4 for me I understand why others would like it, and it introduced kinda interesting cultural elements plus a new kind of witness (Uendo), but for me I didn't enjoy it as much. Mostly because the killer was so obvious, and I really didn't like her reason for killing. Now I know not every case is convoluted, but the fact that I guessed the murderer and the reason from the start of the case kind of ruined it for me. Also, I wish the reveal of the reason was better, and we explored more on the value of inheriting the name (though I guess it doesn't really fit into the game?). Also I felt that the victim should have a better way of handling things, I mean what a weird way of teaching a lesson and asking her to let go, just tell it to her before she murders you. (Not saying that he should have died for something!) So I guess, for me it failed emotionally as they had a kinda sad case but I didn't really feel anything.
- Now my biggest issue is how they dealt with the content from AJAA. Now this is my own personal opinion and I understand that the team changed since Takumi left, but I enjoyed Apollo as a character, but never really understood his growth. For me, his story was a lot of the team adding some tragedy in his past that we coincidentally has to face now, then him learning a lesson about it. Yet, I do not really see how the events in AJAA and Kristoph Gavin has affected him and how we had developed from there. (I also found it weird they added the 'I'm fine' thing in AA5 haha!) I'm not sure how to articulate this properly, but the whole Khura'in thing for me felt like it came out of nowhere and while I enjoyed the story, I think I value continuity too much haha.
- Personally I understand what they did with Trucy's character, but for me I didn't really like it but it's my own personal view haha. I just expected her character to have more deeper issues especially with her family tragedy in AJAA and everything, but I guess the game is not really one to explore human emotions that deep.
- I think I'm the only one who has issue with how often Phoenix breaks down LOLOL. I mean, what happened to the guy who remained calm even when he was accused of forgery and was going to get stripped of his lawyer license.

I know it posts sounds very negative, but in general I really enjoyed the game and I am glad the game even exists haha. Sorry that I can't really express what I feel properly haha.


EDIT: Oh, I just read that Baloo wrote above and I think he kinda articulate my general issues quite well haha especially regarding AJAA!
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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
D.A. McCoy wrote:
Quote:
D.A. McCoy, please. You are tempting my inner fanfic writer, and I worry about that side of me.


Do it! We need this tale told!

I think I started something I'm going to regret.


As I said in your topic, this is great! Now I wish Whet Soba had been localized into an Applebees. Having Simon worried about never getting his Triple Hog Dare Ya and his Triple Chocolate Meltdown would have been incredible. why is everything at Applebees triple



Regarding Maya:
Spoiler: Whole Game
This one is difficult, I think, because she did indeed have less to do with the story than I thought she would. I honestly thought she'd be heavily involved as a spirit medium in the case (I was expecting her to channel Jove at some point) but she turned out to only really have a big role in the 3rd case (and presumably the DLC case as well). However, I think it would have been a bigger disservice not to have her appear considering the subject matter; it would be like setting the game at a coffee shop and not having Godot appear at least sometime. I think (in my opinion) the game was obviously a finale to this trilogy so I think they wanted to bring her back, meet Apollo, etc. because we hadn't seen her and this was kind of the "final chance", at least for a while.

So I do think she was kind of just thrown in there, but I'm not sure how she could have had a bigger role since Apollo was the focus, and I'm glad they put her in anyway.


Is there a general consensus yet about this game? I know eventually DD kind of became known as a "good but not great" entry and I was wondering if a good deal of fans have looked at SoJ more favorably or not. I personally thought it was great, but I don't know what the prevailing opinion is at the moment.
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D.A. McCoy wrote:
Is there a general consensus yet about this game? I know eventually DD kind of became known as a "good but not great" entry and I was wondering if a good deal of fans have looked at SoJ more favorably or not. I personally thought it was great, but I don't know what the prevailing opinion is at the moment.

I believe people in general think it's better than DD, with much better characterization and almost everyone (aside from maybe Edgeworth and Pearl) having at least somewhat of a respectable role. The pacing might be worse, but the story was better with less cheesy "Dark Age of the Law" stuff.
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D.A. McCoy wrote:
Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:


As I said in your topic, this is great! Now I wish Whet Soba had been localized into an Applebees. Having Simon worried about never getting his Triple Hog Dare Ya and his Triple Chocolate Meltdown would have been incredible. why is everything at Applebees triple

He must have been so hungry after eating nothing but prison food. At least it's still better than whatever Phoenix has been "eating"...

Quote:
Regarding Maya:
Spoiler: Whole Game
This one is difficult, I think, because she did indeed have less to do with the story than I thought she would. I honestly thought she'd be heavily involved as a spirit medium in the case (I was expecting her to channel Jove at some point) but she turned out to only really have a big role in the 3rd case (and presumably the DLC case as well). However, I think it would have been a bigger disservice not to have her appear considering the subject matter; it would be like setting the game at a coffee shop and not having Godot appear at least sometime. I think (in my opinion) the game was obviously a finale to this trilogy so I think they wanted to bring her back, meet Apollo, etc. because we hadn't seen her and this was kind of the "final chance", at least for a while.

So I do think she was kind of just thrown in there, but I'm not sure how she could have had a bigger role since Apollo was the focus, and I'm glad they put her in anyway.


Is there a general consensus yet about this game? I know eventually DD kind of became known as a "good but not great" entry and I was wondering if a good deal of fans have looked at SoJ more favorably or not. I personally thought it was great, but I don't know what the prevailing opinion is at the moment.

As Nurio said, most of the fans I see commenting here or offsite really do enjoy the game and find it superior to DD in many aspects. There is some criticism, but I see most of it from here and few of such posts are straight-up complaints.

As for Maya, I couldn't see her role in this game gone any other way.
Spoiler:
For what it's worth, I'm satisfied. Given it is a country about spirit mediums, it's obvious the team wanted to focus on her, but in the end, giving Apollo his trilogy was the more important target. I'm glad to see that the devs think so too.

What little they did show of her, meanwhile, was done pretty well. While she's still the same adorable dork we know and love (or hate), she does prove to be a good and patient mentor to the child that reviles her at first. Honestly, I was among those who thought she didn't need much change in the first place. She's already had ample character development throughout the first trilogy. Adding any more here would have been excessive, especially if they left more room to develop Apollo (and Rayfa).

It's the same with Phoenix. Given his role in this game, it's clear the devs also think he's pretty much at the end of his character development. He's already the chief of his own office, looking after and being mentor to two bright proteges and a gifted daughter. There's barely anything else to add aside from a little nostalgia between him and the first game's cast. Well, that's what the DLC case was for and I think it capitalized on it.

I'm betting that if Phoenix is returning in another game, which is pretty likely to be honest, he's gonna be like Edgeworth is in this game: fanservice. With Maya now returned to the series' spotlight, she doesn't really need to show up in that future title either, unless as a reference or cameo.

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http://www.capcom-unity.com/zeroobjecti ... uccession#

I like what they mention in this article, about the future of the series, how they left the ending open so they could go wherever they want.
I quite like that.
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FenrirDarkWolf wrote:
http://www.capcom-unity.com/zeroobjections/blog/2016/10/01/one-grand-finale-weddings-rakugo-and-succession#

I like what they mention in this article, about the future of the series, how they left the ending open so they could go wherever they want.
I quite like that.


Spoiler: 6-5 Just to be safe
I agree. I thought this game and the ending hit the perfect mark between being open-ended and conclusive where it works as both a grand finale and a look at a promising future.

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I finished the game a few days ago and overall I enjoyed it immensely!!

Spoiler:
Ok, as a big Apollo fan, this game was obviously a blessing. I'll try to list the pros and cons as coherently as I can

Pros
Long cases. I know a lot of people complained about this because they felt a lot of the dialogue was redundant, but I actually never got that feeling and instead I felt like I was getting as much as I could out of the game.
Very lovable new characters. Never before had I fallen so in love with the case characters. Ahlbi, Datz, Uendo, Retinez when he returned to his Reus persona, they were all great!
Interesting breakdowns. Compared to DD's breakdowns, they felt like hammy and more ironic (though Paul Atishon's was definitely out there).
The grand build up to the conclusion. The cases did pretty well in connecting with each other and the theme of inheritance felt cohesive.
How everything made sense after you finished the cases and how much foreshadowing there was to most of the twists in the cases.
Apollo's whole story and development. Seriously, I cannot emphasize how HAPPY I was to see him get the story he deserved. Highlights included the Trucy detention scene, the cave exploration scene, and the 5-2 trial.
THE WHOLE DHURKE WAS DEAD ALL ALONG THING. I honest to god did not see that coming and I actually cried along with Apollo.
Getting to see Apollo's biological dad, finally!
The mysteries. I liked that I felt like I was making discoveries along with the characters, rather than waiting for them to reach the same conclusion I had. The only 'twist' that was so god damn obvious was Rayfa being Amara's daughter.
Female culprits and a female final boss! Dahlia kind of counted but she wasn't even the final murderer...
Maya channeling a male spirit. My god, Tahrust flipping his hair was so funny.

Cons
The whole peanut gallery in Khu'rain. Unlike the US gallery, where they say funny things occasionally like "Why is her suit so yellow?", the Khu'rain gallery had me frustrated and super annoyed with their constant call for Phoenix's execution. Like we get it, they hate lawyers, SHUT UP ALREADY.
How the seances were sometimes buggy. Like, for Tahrust's seance, I immediately recognized that the contradiction was that the flame was being blown by the wind when it shouldn't have, but to get it correct, I had to be REALLY precise with where I pointed it out. Similarly, for Inga's scene, I thought it made more sense to select the sight rather than sound when pointing out that he didn't turn around when he heard "Dhurke's" voice because him hearing a man talking doesn't really contradict Rayfa's statement but him not turning around (i.e. not looking away from the poster) definitely did.
Ga'ran's super obvious "I'M EVIL" prosecutor outfit. I also kind of hated how she ended up being just plain evil rather than a misguided extremist and how she ended up just being plain nasty to Rayfa so that Rayfa didn't have to have any emotional hangups after her arrest.
The lack of Klavier. Seriously, this is Apollo's game and you can't even find a way to bring back Klavier? It would have been so easy to guest star Klavier as the prosecutor for Case 4 and then have him say a few lines in the epilogue about how he feels about Apollo staying in Khu'rain.
Similarly, the lack of exploration of Kristoph and Apollo's relationship. It was kind of hinted that Kristoph's teachings still influenced Apollo in AA5, but then it got completely wiped out.
Nahyuta, despite how hyped I was for him, kind of fell flat. I WANTED to like him more than I do, but ultimately I couldn't feel much for him as my rival prosecutor.
How Rayfa was handled in Case 3. I know that's when a lot of people started warming up to her, but that was actually when I started hating her more, lmfao.

The only thing I'm a bit mixed about is Apollo staying in Khu'rain. On one hand, I don't want to see the WAA be broken up, on the other hand I applaud the bravery of the game to break the status quo. The ending felt natural and so long as Apollo either gets to come back for AA7 or even gets his own spin-off game like AAI, I think I'll be ok with his decision. In retrospect, making Athena's case a DLC case that takes place after the ending would have made so much more sense in the grand scheme of things, but I mean doing so may have also made people riot about her not getting any focus in the main game.


So yeah, despite my gripes with the game, I still would say that was an overall amazing experience.
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Spoiler: Whole game spoilers
So I managed to finish the game, and while it isn't garbage like I was saying earlier, this is one of my least favourite games in the series. One of the main reasons is the Divination Seances. In fact, the only one that I liked was the very last one (which, ironically, I found the easiest one to do). The other main reason is that I really don't like for Nahyuta, since that rather being professional in his approach to prosecuting, he spends most of his time insulting the defense (I know that lawyers are considered to be scum in Khuar'in, but that still doesn't excuse his rudeness).

As for the whole "best and worst case" thing, I felt that Case 4 was by far the worst one (although, I didn't think it was as bad as cases 3 and 4 of AJ are), because it was so much of a filler case, being courtroom only and the whole "multiple personalities" thing that Uendo has. It didn't help that I found Bucky Whet to be the most unlikable defendant yet, surpassing Wocky in that regard. The only good thing about this case was that Blackquill ends up assisting Athena.

For best case, I'm going with Case 5 (even if it's very obvious who the true villain is), just because of the whole "Dhurke has been dead the entire time" plot twist (which I'll admit I never saw coming), the cave exploring segment at the beginning, and the face-off between Apollo and Phoenix.

Also, the ending pretty much writes Apollo out of future Ace Attorney games, which is fine by me. :edgey:

The DLC case was pretty "meh", to be honest, as I found none of the new characters were particularly appealing and the overall case isn't as fun as DD's was (but at least we got to see Larry again, I suppose).


So yeah, as of this game, I'd rank the games as follows: AAI>TaT>DD>PWAA>PLVsAA>SoJ>JFA>AJ.
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I liked this game more than DD, but its still a weak entry for me. DD was far too easy, this game brought the difficulty back, so this game gets ++ for that. I thought 6-2 and 6-5 were a terrific cap to the AJ game, but overall... I guess I just really disliked the divination seance. These new mechanics that keep getting shoe horned into the games... Apollo's perceive mechanic, the mood matrix, and now the divination seance, are, in increasing order, really unnecessary and intrusive. The divination seance also kinda makes a mockery of how past games have handled spirit channeling in the past.
Spoiler:
Edgeworth, a prosecutor who studied law internationally, thinks spirit channeling is claptrap (with good reason, given his past history with it), but there's an ENTIRE COUNTRY where spirit channeling is an essential part of their legal system...


My gripes with the mechanics aside, I liked the rest of the game overall.

Spoiler: better safe than sorry
random thing I noticed, but I felt like Rayfa had a personality very similar to Franzy.


I also really liked the characters
Spoiler: 6-5
Paul Atishon and Armie Buff
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So far,a lot of positive reviews. I wonder what will be the general consensus in a few years.
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I have a feeling it will be a lot more generally positive than with DD which became the biggest "popular to hate" game since JFA. The thing is that SoJ after all did have solid stories to each case that made every story feel complete instead of contrived. My biggest grievance with it is how abruptly some developments kept happening in 6-5; a trait of the writing I thought has been an issue with Yamazaki's final cases since AAI but the pacing was pretty fine and I actually cared for most of the going-ons in the case except the very finale of the case which kinda like DD went for epicness while dropping a few really good opportunities for more intricacy.

I still think when compared to those first three games, including JFA and AJAA to some extent SoJ is still missing the sense of energy and pacing the best trial segments in the series have, so I won't be surprised if someone picks this up a second time in a few years and finds it kind of a let down as part of their replay marathon of the entire series. The only trial segment I really liked for the writing of it was 6-4. Every trial had fun character animations and special set-pieces but I found too few of them had anything intersting going on in terms of character interactions, in no small part due to how little the writers took advantage of Nahyuta's monk design to make for funny or at least threatening moments (save 6-4 once more).

Whenever some really goofy or striking individual had the spotlight in a trial, even Potdino/Andastahn'dihn I felt there wasn't enough comedic interplay between them and the other characters present. It was always sort of safe where the comedy would rely on a character's behavior and they'd just keep repeating that in different ways rather than make unexpected responses from the others. In 6-4 they fixed that. The writing felt really sharp and witty between Athena's impatient peppiness or Blackquill's dry commentary, the Rakugo artists and Nahyuta's calmness. Everything there played off of each other and that was totally missing in every other trial segment in the game which I feel is the biggest drawback, even when the stories turned out to be great in 6-2 and 6-3. The lack of interplay during trials created a lot of pacing issues.
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Capcom creating SoJ: "OMG, guys, we seriously need to appeal to our fandom to sell more, but it is not quite clear what we should do. Wait a minute, how about using Maya again, for the sake of nostalgy? And what's more, she can be blackmailed and accused of murder again. Nevermind this already happened 83837383 times in the whole series, we need to please them fans. But hey, we need a context to make Spirit Medium stuff relevant. How about inventing a magical country where spiritual channeling is used all the time inside of the courtroom? Ok, that will do. But oh, we also have to work on other characters, dammit. Apollo, Athena, Trucy, Blackquill... after all, we decided to create that new team of attorneys in the last game we did. We are forced to be consistent. Ugh, why is it so hard to please them fans? Let's bring more old people back, like Ema and Larry, too. Make it clear how we are so concerned about our loved fan$. Let's just wait and watch if our new quality > quantity policy works, since we are using a lot of characters in this game and we are not properly developing any of them anyway".
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dangerousoffender wrote:
Capcom creating SoJ: "OMG, guys, we seriously need to appeal to our fandom to sell more, but it is not quite clear what we should do. Wait a minute, how about using Maya again, for the sake of nostalgy? And what's more, she can be blackmailed and accused of murder again. Nevermind this already happened 83837383 times in the whole series, we need to please them fans. But hey, we need a context to make Spirit Medium stuff relevant. How about inventing a magical country where spiritual channeling is used all the time inside of the courtroom? Ok, that will do. But oh, we also have to work on other characters, dammit. Apollo, Athena, Trucy, Blackquill... after all, we decided to create that new team of attorneys in the last game we did. We are forced to be consistent. Ugh, why is it so hard to please them fans? Let's bring more old people back, like Ema and Larry, too. Make it clear how we are so concerned about our loved fan$. Let's just wait and watch if our new quality > quantity policy works, since we are using a lot of characters in this game and we are not properly developing any of them anyway".


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Quote:
But oh, we also have to work on other characters, dammit. Apollo, Athena, Trucy, Blackquill..

I thought the Trucy case was pretty great. Some crazy people thought the Athena-Blackquill parts were pretty great. You are implying that they were doing something dumb in this case without actually saying if they did anything wrong. At least that's the tone I'm getting from it. Why not put forward some actual thoughts on why you didn't think they were used well?

Quote:
Let's bring more old people back, like Ema and Larry, too.

Larry is entirely optional. Your argument to me indicates that you think the developers wouldn't be able to prop the game up on it's own merits and had to rely on nostalgia. Now while you could argue that for Maya (though I think she's used well and in appropriately small amounts) your argument doesn't really hold true for Larry. Also regarding Ema, she is hardly an "old" character having existed in the Apollo Justice games it's plenty feasible for her to show up. Especially since this felt like more of an Apollo Justice game than a Phoenix Wright one.

Quote:
Let's just wait and watch if our new quality > quantity policy works, since we are using a lot of characters in this game and we are not properly developing any of them anyway

I'm going to assume you made a mistake in the direction here since ">" implies quality over quantity which your argument doesn't seem to be doing. Going on that assumption I would actually argue a problem I had in this game was with too few characters. Most of the murders it's really only between one or two people as realistic options.

Discounting Case 1 and main characters for it's small nature we have Case 2 which has two people, Case 3 has 3 people involved really, Case 4 has two people (with a disgustingly obvious culprit for me) and Case 5 (which is really two separate cases) has 2 and 3 people involved in the case I think.

Also the discussion about not developing them at all I would say is hotly contested. Both Nahyuta and Ray'fa go through some heavy turmoil and personal decisions over the course of the game. I would also argue they set up pretty strong other characters too. Datz is a crazy goof but he's also got a really serious side to him when it comes to his cause, Beh'leeb is a quiet proper housewife who also has her serious side. Let's look at Albhi who has his life-turned-flipped-turned-upside-down view totally challenged in the first case. He almost opens the demo case by yelling at Phoenix how he disgusts him for being a lawyer and by the end of the game he is helping Apollo *SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER* but you know what I mean.
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Pierre wrote:
Larry is entirely optional. Your argument to me indicates that you think the developers wouldn't be able to prop the game up on it's own merits and had to rely on nostalgia. Now while you could argue that for Maya (though I think she's used well and in appropriately small amounts) your argument doesn't really hold true for Larry. Also regarding Ema, she is hardly an "old" character having existed in the Apollo Justice games it's plenty feasible for her to show up. Especially since this felt like more of an Apollo Justice game than a Phoenix Wright one.

Discounting Case 1 and main characters for it's small nature we have Case 2 which has two people, Case 3 has 3 people involved really, Case 4 has two people (with a disgustingly obvious culprit for me) and Case 5 (which is really two separate cases) has 2 and 3 people involved in the case I think.

Also the discussion about not developing them at all I would say is hotly contested. Both Nahyuta and Ray'fa go through some heavy turmoil and personal decisions over the course of the game. I would also argue they set up pretty strong other characters too. Datz is a crazy goof but he's also got a really serious side to him when it comes to his cause, Beh'leeb is a quiet proper housewife who also has her serious side. Let's look at Albhi who has his life-turned-flipped-turned-upside-down view totally challenged in the first case. He almost opens the demo case by yelling at Phoenix how he disgusts him for being a lawyer and by the end of the game he is helping Apollo *SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER* but you know what I mean.


My point is that characters are there, simply for the sake of being there. Larry is entirely optional. Right, he is entirely optional, but why does he have to be there? He simply is. No other reason aside from pleasing fans. And this game relied on nostalgia/"bringing back old elements" propaganda from the very moment it was announced. Total fanservice.

About Maya lol. I think it can't be contested that she was terribly used in this game, or that at least that she was used in a repetitive way. I mean, Godsake. Being accused of murder again. "Kidnapped" again. Can't Capcom really think of a way to make her character relevant to a game, WITHOUT resorting to using her as a victim that needs to be saved? It is frustrating.

Nayuta is the most boring character of the entire AA's series. I'm not going to dispute the argument that he went through personal turmoil during the game, but his character is just so unlikeable and sterile. I couldn't bring myself to be interested in him and his story, at any point of the game. Even Godot, which annoys me, is better than him IMO. His personality is as deep as a puddle. And I don't think I am being too exigent here. I've seen a lot of people saying similar things. The prosecutor has always been one key aspect that made each AA game interesting. Nayuta totally ruined this experience for me. If he were more charismatic, or had more remarkable traits, the game would be way better.

I failed to especifically mention how I think the "3 different playable attorneys per game" system isn't good. I mean, Phoenix. In which way his character was developed in this game? What new elements did he bring? He is just boring me at this point. Athena was basically an assistent during almost the whole game, and while at least Case 4 showed her as being "alone" as a defense attorney in a courtroom for the first time, I think the game failed to give her a solid role as a lawyer. While she is not a character I particularly like, I feel she deserves more presence as an attorney. I wish the games could focus on a specific character, or 2. Because I can't see how it is possible to develop and give each character justice when you have 5 episodes per game (average) and 3 different playable attorneys.

To be more fair towards the game. I did like how the game expanded on Apollo's childhood and past, and gave more details about them. And I think the best, most impactful and stimulating cases were the ones Apollo lead as the playable character.
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Ok

Quote:
My point is that characters are there, simply for the sake of being there. Larry is entirely optional. Right, he is entirely optional, but why does he have to be there? He simply is. No other reason aside from pleasing fans. And this game relied on nostalgia/"bringing back old elements" propaganda from the very moment it was announced. Total fanservice.


The "Time Traveller" case is specifically there to invoke nostalgia. You make it sound like pleasing fans or nostalgia are intrinsically bad.

Quote:
v About Maya lol. I think it can't be contested that she was terribly used in this game, or that at least that she was used in a repetitive way. I mean, Godsake. Being accused of murder again. "Kidnapped" again. Can't Capcom really think of a way to make her character relevant to a game, WITHOUT resorting to using her as a victim that needs to be saved? It is frustrating.


Well I'll contest it. Yes they walked some old ground with her but she didn't draw too much focus from the main events and her unique powers are intrinsic to the HUGE twist in the last case. That twist wouldn't have been possible without her unique attitude and powers. It's not like the entire last case was a retread of 2-4, only elements of it. It might count against her but I wouldn't judge it as overall a "terrible" use since she's intrinsic to one of the largest twists in the game.

Quote:
Nayuta is the most boring character of the entire AA's series. I'm not going to dispute the argument that he went through personal turmoil during the game, but his character is just so unlikeable and sterile. I couldn't bring myself to be interested in him and his story, at any point of the game. Even Godot, which annoys me, is better than him IMO. His personality is as deep as a puddle. And I don't think I am being too exigent here. I've seen a lot of people saying similar things. The prosecutor has always been one key aspect that made each AA game interesting. Nayuta totally ruined this experience for me. If he were more charismatic, or had more remarkable traits, the game would be way better.


He's a buddhist-based monk I'd argue he's not meant to be a barrel of laughs. That said you do see him grow and embrace his true self. The argument wasn't whether he was LIKEABLE, that's a deeply personal thing for each individual, it was whether he had actually developed and there's no doubt that he did after undergoing the personal turmoil you highlighted.

Quote:
I failed to especifically mention how I think the "3 different playable attorneys per game" system isn't good. I mean, Phoenix. In which way his character was developed in this game? What new elements did he bring? He is just boring me at this point. Athena was basically an assistent during almost the whole game, and while at least Case 4 showed her as being "alone" as a defense attorney in a courtroom for the first time, I think the game failed to give her a solid role as a lawyer. While she is not a character I particularly like, I feel she deserves more presence as an attorney. I wish the games could focus on a specific character, or 2. Because I can't see how it is possible to develop and give each character justice when you have 5 episodes per game (average) and 3 different playable attorneys.


I agree I think it is a problem but I think they handled it better here compared to DD. I feel Apollo and Phoenix both had good bits, with Phoenix experiencing a new setting and the problems that come with it and Apollo really coming into his own and resolving a lot of personal issues in the last case. It's also why I like how it ends. I feel it will make the balance between characters much easier in future games. That said Athena's bit was no better than a disconnected DLC case and I loathed it.
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Not as so much something big, but just something little that I liked is...
Maya's shocked sprite is more-or-less exactly the same as young Mia's.
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After a month of this game being released, I can say that this is probably my second favorite game in the franchise, behind TaT. There's a lot of good things throughout the game, and I really like the overarching theme of it. My biggest gripe without a doubt is

Spoiler: Main game
That there's way too many "Wow!" type moments. This game just tries to be waaaaaay to grand at times, and when there's something that normally would be a huge thing it just kinda feels like "Oh, that happened, well ok." For example, when Phoenix learns about the DA act. "Oh no, if I defend this random kid and lose, I'll die. Oh well, rip me." I get that they're trying to show Phoenix's "Be there for someone when everyone else is against you" mantra, but he shows barely ANY fear towards, you know, dying. It's just like a normal trial, and I never felt genuine fear that he would die. Another time is when Dhurke is revealed to be Apollo's dad, and Nahyuta Apollo's brother. There's nothing leading up to it, it just happens out of nowhere. In AJ, when we learned that Apollo's mom was actually Trucy's mom, who was actually Lamiroir, it was this huge WOW moment, and it was one of the biggest things in the game. This time, they learned that Dhurke, who was pretty much portrayed as the bad guy up to that point, and the rival prosecutor are related to Apollo. Instead of it being this huge thing, it was just kind of like "Oh, that's cool." and then they moved on. It really ruined the impact of big moments like that, and I never really felt absolutely shocked or in general danger. Like, when people held Apollo and Phoenix at gunpoint in the end, it didn't feel different at all. It just felt like the end of the final trial.

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FenrirDarkWolf wrote:
Not as so much something big, but just something little that I liked is...
Maya's shocked sprite is more-or-less exactly the same as young Mia's.

I didn't even notice this because I was too busy being EMOTIONAL about POLLY :snackood: :snackood: But now that you've brought this to my attention I am v happy~

AHEM. So, my thoughts on this game...

Spoiler: Whole game, GS4
This is the kind of game I wanted GS5 to be. I was so disappointed with GS5 for so many reasons...Ignoring GS4, messing up Phoenix's character in the courtroom, shafting Trucy, making a new lawyer the main focus even though I really just wanted more Apollo...but now that GS6 has (mostly) fixed the problems I had with GS5, I feel as though I should revisit GS5...in order to appreciate it for what it is instead of what I wanted it to be. That being said, my favourite thing about GS5 is how it developed Apollo's character. Despite the over-use of "I'M FINE!", I think they did a great job with him throughout the game despite not answering the questions I had about him from GS4. But, now they've done so in this game, and I'm really glad they did.

Pacing is definitely a huge problem in this game...I think it's what makes it great, but not a masterpiece. What it did focus on from previous games is what really sold me on it. This is the Apollo Justice 2 that I've been waiting for forever...I'm not disappointed in the least. Obviously since I'm a longtime Apollo fangirl, this game feels like it was made for me. I think retconning the "past" that Apollo had in GS4 was a good move (The thing about how he made up his own last name and he lived in an orphonage his whole childhood). Apollo was a blank slate and if the dev team were to retcon anything, I'm glad it was the sorry excuse for a backstory that Apollo had in GS4. I'm so happy that Apollo comes to form in this game. His issue in GS5 with the WAA and leaving them to pursue his own path of justice, if only briefly...it was a taste of what's to come. Apollo has always been an outsider in Phoenix's life. Even in his own game, Apollo wasn't the focus, he was just caught in the crossfire of everyone else. As an Apollo fan I always felt he was underutilized and shafted at times, but now I understand why. He needs to carve out a path for himself and I'm so SO happy that he achieves this in GS6. At first, I was really worried about the ending because I don't wanna see Trucy and Polly be apart :') but it's the best for Apollo's character right now and given the crazy climax that we get in 6-5, it's the only logical conclusion for him.

Speaking of Trucy, 6-2 being about her was so necessary. Judging from the general consensus I've seen, it seems that two of the biggest problems in GS5 were 1) the inconsistency in Phoenix's character and 2) Trucy being shafted. I feel like 6-2 was like an ode to Trucy and bringing the life she had in GS4 back. She felt like a shell of her real self in GS5 and I'm so happy that they figured out what to do with her in this game, although I still missed her in 6-5, I understand why she wasn't needed. Honestly, another big gripe I have in this game is that they still can't bring back the dynamic Phoenix and Trucy had in GS4. I guess it's just a case of Takumi knowing what he wanted with them both, and the new team missing the mark. I'll always miss their old dynamic but I don't think it's ever coming back, especially since I still believe that something is off with Phoenix's characterization (mostly in trials). That being said, Trucy-Phoenix isn't the focus anymore, and Phoenix is much more of a mentor in this game than in any game before and I'm happy that he has finally become that.

Obviously, I adore Ema in this. I think they got her character absolutely perfect, and I'm so happy she was the regular detective and played a part in all cases except for 6-1.

Even the cameos were necessary in this. Edgeworth was instrumental to the investigation in 6-5, nothing would have gotten done if not for him. Pearl was important to 6-5, Maya was obviously important....I'm glad they didn't just shove in random cameos. Klavier felt like that in GS5. Kind of a shame because I think Klavier is wasted potential but that's not a big issue. He's kind of in limbo now as a character, so I'd definitely be excited if he became important again in future games.

I also didn't find any new characters particularly annoying, unless they were meant to be (Paul Atishon lol). All of the witnesses were interesting and I enjoyed their stories just as much as the main cast. Really loved the new characters, especially Uendo, Bonny/Betty, Dhurke, Datz, etc. I really like Rayfa too, she reminds me a lot of 13 y/o Franziska from GK1. My thoughts of Nahyuta is still complicated, I don't really know yet whether I really liked him or if he was just "meh".

Divination Seance's were really unique, and also the most difficult parts of the game. I'm impressed that they managed to get all the different character abilities in this game without it feeling overloaded!

Overall I think this is really a great installment. It's ambitous, it gives me what I wanted for years since GS4. Most importantly, it ties up all the loose ends in the game and even some from previous games. I enjoyed Khura'in a lot.

I did almost cry when Thalassa and Phoenix were talking at the end of the game. I knew it was gonna happen but I couldn't help it, I've been waiting so long for this....I'm so happy that they included this even though we never actually see them tell Apollo and trucy.......I'm just glad that it's been confirmed that they're told.

Image
"Having a place to go — is a home. Having someone to love — is a family. Having both — is a blessing."
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