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Why was this a plotpoint in the first place? (SPOIL all SoJ)Topic%20Title
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Sorry for the weird title, I couldn't fit it all in the title. What I meant to say is:

THIS TOPIC CONTAINS SPOILERS FOR 6-5 AND THE FINALE OF SoJ. Don't read this if you haven't finished SoJ yet.

This is probably a topic more suited to the AJ forum section, but I worried that putting it in there would be hinting at SoJ spoilers and people might be spoiled by accident, so I put it here. Also, for the record: AJ is my favorite game, and I love Takumi's writing. However, I love Yamazaki's as well and thought SoJ was really great. So any critique of certain things isn't based on that.

Spoiler:
Obviously there's the post-credits scene in SoJ where Thalassa and Phoenix decide they are going to tell Trucy and Apollo that they are siblings. Obviously they don't show it, which will upset some people (I actually think its better that way so they don't have to go through all of the work) and I know some view it as a cliffhanger to hint at this plot point appearing in GS7 rather than a conclusion. I've been discussing and thinking about the scene and the whole plot from AJ in general and I'm starting to get more and more confused about why it was even a thing in the first place. In fact, I feel like many of the criticisms that have arisen from DD and SoJ's reluctance to go into this are actually more the fault of AJ than Yamazaki or his games.

If I remember correctly, (and correct me if I'm wrong), Phoenix doesn't give a real legitimate reason as to why Trucy and Apollo shouldn't know they're related. He says something along the lines of "We'll wait until they're ready". What I'm trying to figure out is, what exactly do they they need to fulfill to satisfy Phoenix's requirements? (Apparently as of SoJ they have done it, but on the other hand we should probably ignore the Yamazaki explanations for now if we're trying to figure out what Takumi's reasoning was.) Can anyone explain this?

There are also a lot of issues that revolve around where this story would go. I'm not sure if Takumi had a gameplan for why this was important and how it would develop, but for me it's a plot point that is uninteresting for a couple of reasons:

1. The audience knows about it already. This means that we don't get the shock and surprise - the best thing we'll get is the pleasure of finally seeing the truth revealed. No doubt that would be fun, but it's not the same as some of the other twists on the "excitement" scale.

2. It creates a lot of unnecessary conflict between Trucy/Apollo and Phoenix/Thalassa. In AJ, Phoenix is kind of shady, but he always does the right thing in the end. Thalassa is pretty much completely pure; I don't remember her having any negative qualities, really. Why would these two specific individuals hide this fact to these kids? When they eventually find out, right alongside the positive emotions will be negative emotions Trucy and Apollo will feel such as feeling left out or betrayed because they didn't tell Trucy and Apollo this. Looking at AJ without DD or SoJ, to Apollo it would make Phoenix look even more distrustworthy and would definitely not help his relationship to Thalassa. It will create a bombardment of different emotions and I don't think the AA series has the ability to explore that in the way it would need to be. I think they would understand if there was a good reason for hiding it, but I don't see what reason that could be.

3. It doesn't have enough power or plot importance to be the subject of a case matching the emotional importance fans place on it. I've heard discussions about how AA7 might have a case or game focused on the sibling thing. In my opinion, the reveal - which would be important to the fans and Trucy and Apollo - wouldn't be that important in the overall scheme of AA. In order for it to be a part of a big case, something like Thalassa or Trucy getting murdered would have to occur for it to be really important, and that would be too out-of-nowhere (and cruel, for that matter) for it to be the payoff fans want.

4. It doesn't fundamentally change anything. Trucy and Apollo act like siblings anyway, and apart from jokes from others like Dhurke, there hasn't been any evidence of romantic interest (Thank God!) so the reveal wouldn't actually have a big effect on the characters. They'd end up right where they are now emotionally. This is why the 2nd point I made is such a big issue. The amount of conflict and tension required to get this secret out there isn't worth it when you compare it to how unimportant it is from a narrative level.

So from my perspective, making a big deal out of this - and the fact that this was even a "mystery" to begin with - is kind of frustrating, because it's simultaneously the biggest "twist" and the most unimportant "twist" at the same time. I'm sure that Takumi put it in there for a reason (even if that reason was to build some artificial mystery up), but he never made any effort to get his GS5 rolling soon after either, and he didn't really want to continue the series post T&T in the first place so I'm not sure why he'd leave this "open".

Now, if we look at Yamazaki's handling of the situation, it might first look like he and his team are avoiding it or acting like it doesn't exist. But I think the way it was handled in SoJ was totally fitting, because I think the team knows that dealing with it is too much trouble and would make the narrative weaker because it would have to devote so much time to it. By setting it up to happen offscreen and leaving it at that, each fan can "make up" how it happened, potential emotional ups and downs, etc. and have it settle before we see the characters again in the next installment. They'll be over it and so will we. Then fans will be able to get the happy outcome of the situation without any of the complicated part. Do I think it was perfect? No. I think it could have been improved by showing a single still photo of Thalassa, Trucy, and Apollo together or something (similar to the photos/drawings that ended GS1 and T&T) to make more clear that it happened soon after that. But I'm glad they didn't actually write a scene with it in there.

The biggest issue I have with it in relation to the 3DS games is that it feels weird to see the characters all together while they don't know. But once again, I put more blame on AJ for that than the recent games.

Sorry about the long post, but I think this is a really interesting part of the games - not the actual plot line, but the reasons why it was treated the way it was. Am I missing something? What are your thoughts? What do you think is the reason why Phoenix decided to hide this? Why did Takumi decide to hide this? What do you think about how SoJ concluded it? Or do you think it's not a conclusion and expect more about it in the future? I'd love to discuss this.

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Re: Why was this a plotpoint in the first place? (SPOIL all Topic%20Title
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I'm gonna answer the topic question in one fell swoop

It's a plot point because the guy who makes the plot put it as a point
Re: Why was this a plotpoint in the first place? (SPOIL all Topic%20Title
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It makes me wonder if there's some dark secret that the two of them have.
Re: Why was this a plotpoint in the first place? (SPOIL all Topic%20Title
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Spoiler:
Thanks for making these points because I never looked at this issue in this way. To start:

I don't know what plans Takumi had for post-AJ. Can we even know?

1. Agreed. And if AA7 does go into this because the team is pressured by the fans, I fear it will fall flat of expectations and execution.

2. Agreed. I imagine it will create unnecessary drama between Apollo and Phoenix. We already got that in DD, so I don't see the reason to put strain on their relationship again.

3. There would have to be some new detail or aspect introduced in order for it to have that effect.

From what I've seen, some fans (including me) want this to be resolved for the sake of it, but I don't think there is a best way to do it, for the reasons you've stated.

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Re: Why was this a plotpoint in the first place? (SPOIL all Topic%20Title
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I do think it's not something that can be done really satisfying in a game. Like you said, you'd need to blow it up big time to make it work in the context of the games, but that doesn't seem like a good solution to me, and would AGAIN make everything resolve around the main cast, instead about 'the normal defendant.' I really wouldn't mind if they'd solve tha off screen.
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Re: Why was this a plotpoint in the first place? (SPOIL all Topic%20Title
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Yeah, when I saw that scene my first thought was that they wanted us to assume that they'll know by the next game so they don't have to spoil AJ and make a big de al out of this. If Thalassa makes a cameo or something it will be probably just to confirm that somehow (like Trucy refering to her as mommy or something, which would't be too spoilery).


As for the question, Takumi had to change the script entirely and the game has a clear unfinished
feel to it. Maybe he had plans for it, but he couldn't go ahead with them, like many other things.
Re: Why was this a plotpoint in the first place? (SPOIL allTopic%20Title
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Yeah, when I saw that scene I also thought it would be revealed off-screen. Though I somehow feel like the next time we see Apollo, he'll at least make mention of it, though it'll be a short inconsequential scene. Something like...

Spoiler: 6-5
AJ: (My name is Apollo Justice. I'm a defense attorney here in Kura'in.)
AJ: (This is Nahyuta Sahdmadhi. He's a prosecutor.)
NS: Why are you looking at me like that?
AJ: (...And he's my adoptive brother. We get along. ...I think.)
AJ: (I also have an adoptive sister. And a half-sister... since yesterday.)
*flashback*
*phone rings*
PW: Hey Apollo.
AJ: Mr. Wright? Do you need something?
PW: Nah. You really like Trucy, right?
AJ: Wh-Where are you going with this, Mr. Wright.
PW: Okay, I'll get right to it, then. You two are half-siblings and share the same mother.
AJ: WHAT!?
PW: Okay, bye.
*hang up*
*end of flashback*
AJ: (...)
AJ: (In hindsight... I'm not surprised...)


...It's probably not how it will go. I'm also not that great with writing in character for AA characters. But hey, I tried.
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Re: Why was this a plotpoint in the first place? (SPOIL allTopic%20Title
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Nurio wrote:
Yeah, when I saw that scene I also thought it would be revealed off-screen. Though I somehow feel like the next time we see Apollo, he'll at least make mention of it, though it'll be a short inconsequential scene. Something like...

Spoiler: 6-5
AJ: (My name is Apollo Justice. I'm a defense attorney here in Kura'in.)
AJ: (This is Nahyuta Sahdmadhi. He's a prosecutor.)
NS: Why are you looking at me like that?
AJ: (...And he's my adoptive brother. We get along. ...I think.)
AJ: (I also have an adoptive sister. And a half-sister... since yesterday.)
*flashback*
*phone rings*
PW: Hey Apollo.
AJ: Mr. Wright? Do you need something?
PW: Nah. You really like Trucy, right?
AJ: Wh-Where are you going with this, Mr. Wright.
PW: Okay, I'll get right to it, then. You two are half-siblings and share the same mother.
AJ: WHAT!?
PW: Okay, bye.
*hang up*
*end of flashback*
AJ: (...)
AJ: (In hindsight... I'm not surprised...)


...It's probably not how it will go. I'm also not that great with writing in character for AA characters. But hey, I tried.


That's pretty good actually, at least the Apollo portion. While I wouldn't want Phoenix's reaction to actually be that, I like how Apollo is already over it. If I was writing it, I'd preferably not even have the "talk" flashback in it, and just have Apollo say something like (I'm not even going to try to write it in character hahaha) "Not long after I moved here, Mr. Wright phoned me up and told me about it. A lot of emotions went through my head, and it was a little hard to fully accept at first, but in the end it made total sense. In a way I feel like we knew already" or something. Indicate the characters may have had all those complicated conflicted feelings but have it already be old news so his relationship with Wright and Trucy doesn't change.



The question about Takumi was more "what do you think a possible theory/reasoning is for how it could have gone"? (then presumably Takumi might have had the same thoughts).

Butz the Klutz 52 wrote:
It makes me wonder if there's some dark secret that the two of them have.


I actually wonder if Takumi was thinkin along these lines (assuming "the two of them" is Wright and Thalassa. I wonder if perhaps the story of Apollo's father and his adoption was going to be the subject of a big emotional case like 6-5 was and Thalassa could have been trying to keep Apollo protected until he was ready to face the truth. In fact, I almost wonder if it would have ended up that Thalassa killed him (for probably a sympathetic reason) or something.
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Re: Why was this a plotpoint in the first place? (SPOIL allTopic%20Title
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D.A. McCoy wrote:
Butz the Klutz 52 wrote:
It makes me wonder if there's some dark secret that the two of them have.


I actually wonder if Takumi was thinkin along these lines (assuming "the two of them" is Wright and Thalassa. I wonder if perhaps the story of Apollo's father and his adoption was going to be the subject of a big emotional case like 6-5 was and Thalassa could have been trying to keep Apollo protected until he was ready to face the truth. In fact, I almost wonder if it would have ended up that Thalassa killed him (for probably a sympathetic reason) or something.

Even before we knew about Apollo's upbringing in this game, I had my suspicions regarding his father and how they could reveal him. I couldn't see a big family reunion-turn-incident work out in a way that would span more than a single case. It's not like with Phoenix & Maya's reunion in JFA, where her evil aunt was still around to cause problems in the next game, unless they want to pull that thread again and hamfist another evil villain for the express purpose of making some Bollywood drama. Thankfully, they didn't.

Not to mention, Yamazaki & his peeps have a pretty good grasp of Apollo's character (not surprising, Yamazaki was part of the AJ team). Apollo isn't the type to wail about his family drama. He's the type to yell at his adoptive father for leaving him alone for more than ten years.

But I'd say the weakest link to setting up a plot with Thalassa may be the woman herself. We barely know anything about her. She's Apollo and Trucy's mom and Magnifi's daughter, sure, but she was first introduced to us as this kind old lady with amnesia. Then, it "got better" and now she's roaming the globe, supposedly, and avoiding her children, as if she still had amnesia. Is she purposely trying to confirm her "death" by just disappearing? It's totally unlike Misty's case, where she shamed her whole clan by getting involved with a murder case gone awry.

To be fair, I think she understands that her children don't know her very well, so the reunion may not be all that inspiring. Perhaps Trucy could be more used to her, but as this game has pointed out, Apollo spent a good deal of his young life away from both his original parents. Actually, this was implied since AJ.

But then I thought about it... maybe she wasn't concerned about Apollo or Trucy. Maybe she was concerned about Nick. Maybe she was worried that if she revealed that she was their mother, Trucy would be inclined to pair her with Phoenix, who will come to deny any plans for marriage! And then there's the huge family drama that unfolds...

Nah. Let's just keep that to the fans to decide. It's not worth bringing up in a game aside from a quick reference from time to time.
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Re: Why was this a plotpoint in the first place? (SPOIL all Topic%20Title

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Forgive me if I'm wrong, because my memory of AJ is incredibly fuzzy. But I actually thought that this plot point was actually to expand Trucy's character. In AJ, Trucy was shown to be happy most of the time despite knowing most of the things regarding her family tragedy. And the only hint to what she was truly feeling something was shown like 1 sec in the end. I don't think it was meant to show 'oh she's sad sometimes' but it was meant to show that she was meant to be a much more developed character than that. And the reveal of who her mother is and that Apollo is her half-brother would help to show her true feelings and develop her further. I mean, I would not accept her to accept the fact so happily and easily, but the fact that her mother was alive all along would probably cause some more complex emotions.

Hence I was a little shocked when they actually showed Trucy crying in SOJ cause I thought they were waiting for that moment to show her breakdown, but I guess being accused of murder is something quite frightening really. And looking that how AA5 and SOJ has been, I don't think the game will be able to explore emotions and feelings at such a deep level so maybe it is for the better. I doubt they'll know what Takumi initially intended anyways, which was why Trucy ended up being treated as a joke in AA5.

(Also, anyone wish that Phoenix was a more responsible father in SOJ LOL, or do I have too high an expectation.)
Re: Why was this a plotpoint in the first place? (SPOIL allTopic%20Title
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greenbutt wrote:
Forgive me if I'm wrong, because my memory of AJ is incredibly fuzzy. But I actually thought that this plot point was actually to expand Trucy's character. In AJ, Trucy was shown to be happy most of the time despite knowing most of the things regarding her family tragedy. And the only hint to what she was truly feeling something was shown like 1 sec in the end. I don't think it was meant to show 'oh she's sad sometimes' but it was meant to show that she was meant to be a much more developed character than that. And the reveal of who her mother is and that Apollo is her half-brother would help to show her true feelings and develop her further. I mean, I would not accept her to accept the fact so happily and easily, but the fact that her mother was alive all along would probably cause some more complex emotions.

Hence I was a little shocked when they actually showed Trucy crying in SOJ cause I thought they were waiting for that moment to show her breakdown, but I guess being accused of murder is something quite frightening really. And looking that how AA5 and SOJ has been, I don't think the game will be able to explore emotions and feelings at such a deep level so maybe it is for the better. I doubt they'll know what Takumi initially intended anyways, which was why Trucy ended up being treated as a joke in AA5.

(Also, anyone wish that Phoenix was a more responsible father in SOJ LOL, or do I have too high an expectation.)


That is a good point about Trucy's perspective; I was so focused on them being siblings that I didn't think about that. That kind of makes me wish they'd showed a little still image of them all together during the Capcom Logo or something (like I mentioned before in the first topic). Still, as you said, I don't think the game could handle this subtle and complex of emotion right. (And I say that of Takumi and Yamazaki. I think it's more an aspect of the kind of game/narrative AA does more than the writer). I think the only way they could try to do it would be make a big deal out of it and as I said before I don't really think that would work.

I am constantly frustrated by Phoenix's actions regarding being a father. It's not that he's done anything wrong, but it's more that I just wish he'd reference it a little more. And I wish during all the times he was in danger in GS6 he'd reflect a little bit on the fact that he had a daughter to take care of before he decided that he had to do what was right. I do think he was better in SoJ than in DD, though.
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