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Re: Headcanon for the series?Topic%20Title
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It's weird to think of AJ's Case 1. Apollo convicted his mentor over a guy he JUST met. To the players, it's not much of a dilemma considering we just met Kristoph but we know Phoenix, but it's weird to think about what Apollo and Kristoph's working relationship was like. I mean, Kristoph doesn't even seem like the kind of guy who'd take a protégée (I want Apollo to address in GS6 that Kristoph never made him clean toilets)

So, this is more of a headcanon request. What do you guys think the relationship between Kristoph and Apollo was like? Did Apollo ever sit on one of his trials? Did they ever grab brunch together? Was Apollo assigned homework?
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I'd say their relationship was strictly professional. Kristoph doesn't seem like the type who'd get to know his protege that well, and Apollo, while shocked to find out it was his boss, wasn't too stricken by the end of that case. However, there's no doubt that Apollo still respected him as a great mentor. Working with Phoenix simply made the entire job more personal and perhaps enjoyable, especially with li'l Trucy running around with him.

Still, I wouldn't be surprised if Kristoph picked out Apollo because of his distant ties to the Gramarye line. I wouldn't know for what reason exactly, but it stinks of evil plot and an overly cautious mastermind.
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Re: Headcanon for the series?Topic%20Title
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Apollo seems more competent than Phoenix did in his first few cases, so the coolest defense in the West was probably a pretty good teacher. I like to think that Kristoph cared about Apollo on some level, though, and felt a little betrayed by him. It's disappointing that Phoenix was the one who was ultimately his archenemy in the end, but I guess he was more personally hurt by him

The last thing you said can make sense, though. He could've thought that Apollo might receive Zak's will which could give a clue on where he was or he could've even thought that Zak might visit Apollo one day. It might not make a lot or sense, but maybe it did to Kristoph. There was an earlier theory here that Kristoph was afflicted with severe paranoia
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Kristoph is a well written villain. It's hard to say for sure exactly what he thought of his relationships to friends, protege, and brother. I don't doubt that there was at least some level of kinship involved with each of them, but the point of the matter was that he was naturally a paranoid guy. Worse for him, Phoenix really wanted to know what happened in that case that led to his disbarment, and he knew Kristoph was involved somehow. It's why he could never trust him as a real friend, and when Apollo was dragged into this argument between him and Phoenix, he rightfully vented his anger at Phoenix. Imo, those black psyche-locks show a deeper level of despair he held from this conflict of interests, even if he wasn't fully aware of it himself.

I was always under the impression that Phoenix did honestly try to befriend him, and during that evaluation session, he trusted him. After a while, though, even he could pick up on how Kristoph always avoided talking about that trial and anything to do with Zak. He did take in Trucy around then, and I don't think Kristoph liked that girl very much either, just because she was the partner in Zak's escape. Whatever the reasons, Phoenix couldn't bring himself to stay on good terms with him, and by the time in 4-1, both of them were merely acting cordial.

That brings me to Trucy. Who knows how she thought of Kristoph before 4-1? She rarely ever shows her deepest anguish since she's so determined to keep up the atmosphere. I say the only ones who've ever seen her cry are her former parents and Nick. The girl may seem ditzy, but she's far from it. Like father, like daughter.

Personally, I find this a satisfactory explanation for why he wasn't too concerned about her in 5-5. She's strong enough to take care of herself, but more importantly, the trial lasted a few hours at most. Maya's imprisonment lasted over 2 days and she was starved. Besides, he knew Aura was desperate, not insane, so she wouldn't dare to hurt anyone if she could avoid it. De Killer, on the other hand, was simply acting like a businessman. That's a whole different level of danger.

...Dang it. I flew off on a tangent again. Um... yeah, that's my headcanon for several things.
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Re: Headcanon for the series?Topic%20Title
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I always imagine that Kristoph bullied his younger brother as a child, he just seems like the kind of person who would. It would also explain why Klavier doesn't seem to be too broken up about him or anything, at least not from what I remember, it's been at least 3 years since I've played 4-4.

Here's one of my more insane headcanon: The Ace Attorney series takes place in an alternate history where instead of being discovered by European settlers, North America was discovered by Asian settlers, primarily Japanese. The U.S.A was founded by immigrants from Japan, which explains why there's so much Japanese culture in what's supposed to be the U.S.
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I like to think that while the history went the same, at some point there were many Japanese who immigrated in big numbers to USA (someone suggested California gold rush)
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Oops, accidently posted this in the wrong thread.
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Re: Headcanon for the series?Topic%20Title
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Huh? Why? It is a headcanon thread.
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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
Kristoph is a well written villain. It's hard to say for sure exactly what he thought of his relationships to friends, protege, and brother. I don't doubt that there was at least some level of kinship involved with each of them, but the point of the matter was that he was naturally a paranoid guy. Worse for him, Phoenix really wanted to know what happened in that case that led to his disbarment, and he knew Kristoph was involved somehow. It's why he could never trust him as a real friend, and when Apollo was dragged into this argument between him and Phoenix, he rightfully vented his anger at Phoenix. Imo, those black psyche-locks show a deeper level of despair he held from this conflict of interests, even if he wasn't fully aware of it himself.

I was always under the impression that Phoenix did honestly try to befriend him, and during that evaluation session, he trusted him. After a while, though, even he could pick up on how Kristoph always avoided talking about that trial and anything to do with Zak. He did take in Trucy around then, and I don't think Kristoph liked that girl very much either, just because she was the partner in Zak's escape. Whatever the reasons, Phoenix couldn't bring himself to stay on good terms with him, and by the time in 4-1, both of them were merely acting cordial.

That brings me to Trucy. Who knows how she thought of Kristoph before 4-1? She rarely ever shows her deepest anguish since she's so determined to keep up the atmosphere. I say the only ones who've ever seen her cry are her former parents and Nick. The girl may seem ditzy, but she's far from it. Like father, like daughter.

Personally, I find this a satisfactory explanation for why he wasn't too concerned about her in 5-5. She's strong enough to take care of herself, but more importantly, the trial lasted a few hours at most. Maya's imprisonment lasted over 2 days and she was starved. Besides, he knew Aura was desperate, not insane, so she wouldn't dare to hurt anyone if she could avoid it. De Killer, on the other hand, was simply acting like a businessman. That's a whole different level of danger.

...Dang it. I flew off on a tangent again. Um... yeah, that's my headcanon for several things.

Kristoph is a villain I could honestly talk for hours about. I mean, I prefer my Gants and Von Karmas, but Kristoph is still such a mystery. There's so much we don't know about him. He's perfect headcanon material. I was going to write a headcanon about how he was engaged once but it fell apart due to him being paranoid about relationship issues and such (cheating, money problems) but then I realized that Kristoph is simply a man who can't trust others. He didn't believe in Zak which led to him requesting the forgery, Zak couldn't trust him because he saw the kind of man he was, Kristoph couldn't trust his forgers to keep quiet so he murdered them (or tried to), and everything just landslided from there. I still like to think his black psyche-locks are due to his deep rooted feelings of inferiority towards Klavier, but it could simply be his paranoia protecting him at a subconscious level. It's a very subtle theme of trust but it's there and it feels miles better than telling it straight up to the Phantom

And I'd be fine with Phoenix not caring about the Trucy kidnapping thing if the game lampshaded that the only ones taking it seriously were the Judge and Fulbright
dimentiorules wrote:
I always imagine that Kristoph bullied his younger brother as a child, he just seems like the kind of person who would. It would also explain why Klavier doesn't seem to be too broken up about him or anything, at least not from what I remember, it's been at least 3 years since I've played 4-4.

Kristoph is the kind of guy who never wanted a brother. He didn't abuse Klavier but he probably did neglect him, kick him out of his room, got pissed when Klavy used his textbooks as a percussion set, etc. All the tame brother stuff. By the time Klavier was in elementary school, he was inviting friends over all the time. Certainly more friends than Kristoph ever had. By middle school, Klavier had more girlfriends than Kristoph ever had. Girls loved the hot, musically-gifted bad boy (that actually kept up with his studies). Kristoph just became upset over all the things Klavier was getting; attention from his teachers, immense popularity, and he probably lost his virginity before Kristoph even kissed a girl. At least Kristoph was smarter? Nope. Klavier's grades were on par or better.

Kristoph went off to college, enjoyed his time, and when he came home for summer, he realized that Klavier was now an inch taller than him and would only continue to grow. Now, the "little" brother was more physically imposing than the older. Klavier didn't flaunt his talents to Kristoph. In fact, he just wanted his brother to notice him and be proud of him. Maybe that's why he became a Prosecutor, so his defense attorney brother would have no choice but to face off against him eventually

Klavier did remarkably well in law and everyone lauded over him. Kristoph saw his chance to humiliate his brother in a courtroom but his lawyer fired him, unleashing the darkness that had built up inside of him (probably held together by sixteen black psyche-locks in a pentagram formation)

Things got out of hand. His brother focused more on his music for now and they'd get together for events like Thanksgiving every once in a while, but they were never really that close. Kristoph wanted nothing more than to be better than his brother at something, but instead he just ends up nearsighted with nasty ass fingernails and forced to constantly wear boots five inch heels. There's probably nobody Kristoph hates more than his brother and he just redirects his hate towards others like Zak. He didn't kill him over a card game. That was the last straw

How fitting that Kristoph's last moment in court was as a dejected shell of a man (probably from the trauma of all his locks shattering as he was exposed by Klavier) with his brother and protege present, as well as the daughter of two men who he detested

Hm...I got way more into this post than I thought I would
Re: Headcanon for the series?Topic%20Title
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Wait, what?

I don't think Kristoph cares in the slightest about Klavier's lifestyle. He wouldn't really compare grades, simply because he was years before him - while Klavier was a rookie, Kristoph was already a member of Bar Association - that does require some experience, so he was quite a prodigy himself.

Loud music, girls, all the celebrity stuff? Oh, he would be bothered by it, of course, but I'd rather think he see those as annoyances rather than anything else. He just doesn't strike me as a person who would want any of that, really.
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Nearavex wrote:
Wait, what?

I don't think Kristoph cares in the slightest about Klavier's lifestyle. He wouldn't really compare grades, simply because he was years before him - while Klavier was a rookie, Kristoph was already a member of Bar Association - that does require some experience, so he was quite a prodigy himself.

Loud music, girls, all the celebrity stuff? Oh, he would be bothered by it, of course, but I'd rather think he see those as annoyances rather than anything else. He just doesn't strike me as a person who would really want any of that.

He compared grades by grade. So, Klavier's grades in seventh grade were better than Kristoph's in seventh. But a lot of the post was pulled out of my ass so it's not meant to be taken too seriously. Kristoph seems like the quite the tall fellow

He doesn't want all the celebrity stuff, but he did want attention and recognition for his hard work. Something that Klavier got plenty of. I'm sure Kristoph wouldn't give a shit whether or not Klavier lost his virginity, though. Like I said, it was pulled out of my ass

I do see Kristoph Gavin as the Littlefinger of the Ace Attorney series, though
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Yeah, I guess. It is a headcanon thread after all. I just thought to share my opinion on the matter.
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Oh yeah, it's fine. I was just coming up with plausible brother-brother reasons for resentment. I wasn't miffed or anything

Fun-fact about Kristoph: He's the only murderer in the series who never has a contradiction in their testimony, made doubly impressive by the fact that he was a murderer in two cases
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He did make some serious flukes which would be contradictions, if the statements were inside a testimony - Shadi's head and color of the cards.

Not like any normal player would pick up on either...
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I always saw the gavins really liking each other as kids but at some point Kristoph just started finding him annoying, maybe when he gained interest in rock.
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My headcanon for DD is:
Spoiler: GS5-5
Shelley shot the Phantom. He's the only assassin (who's not blind) that could've done it. Unless there's someone knew on the scene?

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Gavin and Apollo relationship: I think it was a strict working relationship, but they did kind of get along togeter. Like, maybe they did grab lunch or did some friendly bantering when they had time, but they didn't tell their lifestores or anything (and Gavin is probably more reluctant to talk about himself than Apollo). I also think Kristop was a driven and competent mentor who drilled Apollo well and taught him stuff, let him watch trials and yes, maybe homework as well. It says in case 4-4 that Phoenix had seen Apollo at the agency when he was 15, but from the judging only from the dialogue in the beginning of 4-1 it feels more like their relationship is at the point where they've just got used to each other, but perhaps that just shows they kept some personal distance to each other. Kristoph seems to be well aware of Apollo's quirks, but it's hard to tell whether he's amused and/or annoyed by them. I'd say Apollo is somewhat repelling to Kristoph, but also kind of impressing. As for the other way around, Apollo has a huge respect and loyalty to Kristoph, mixed with a tiny bit of fear. Which makes it even more impressing that he stood up against him for the sake of truth, and honestly, I think Kristoph felt that too, in an "at least I raised him well" way.

Gavin and Gavin relationship: Well, first of all, I'm very sure I've seen it stated that Kristoph is taller than Klavier :kristoph: Seriously though, I'm all for the inferiority complex as well. In their childhood, I don't think they had much of a relation. Kristoph was eight years old when Klavi was born, and probably not in the slightest interested in an ugly, screaming baby. Maybe little Klavier looked up to Kristoph, but to Kristoph, he was just a nuisance - that is, until he started to get into the law - his territory. Kristoph didn't want his brother around in the place he ha created a name for himself in, especially not when Klavier proved himself as a competent prosecutor who gained popularity quickly. Now Klavier has a genuine passion for the law, but I also think he saw their similar professions as an opening for a stronger brother-to-brother relationship. He liked the idea of them facing each other in court, looking forward to a fair fight, a lighthearted sibling rivalry, even sharing evidence and such, for friendship's sake. Kristoph though, saw this as an opportunity to completely crush his brother and take his territory back. I think that lost opportunity was one of the strong tipping points that made things go the way they did.

Their dialogue in 4-4 points to a more complex relationship though, for example when Kristoph warns Klavi about "spinning out of control" and Klavi asks him if he means Klavier's spinning out of Kristoph's control. I think Klavier always looked up to Kristoph, in a way that gave Kristoph some kind of power over him, a power he never asked for. It's also interesting how Klavier indeed seems sad over the way things had turned, and he's shocked when Apollo calls Kristoph out, be he doesn't seem surprised. Perhaps he didn't expect Kristoph to take things that far, but he was aware of his brother's dark and twisted side.
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GoingforMiles wrote:
Gavin and Apollo relationship: I think it was a strict working relationship, but they did kind of get along togeter. Like, maybe they did grab lunch or did some friendly bantering when they had time, but they didn't tell their lifestores or anything (and Gavin is probably more reluctant to talk about himself than Apollo). I also think Kristop was a driven and competent mentor who drilled Apollo well and taught him stuff, let him watch trials and yes, maybe homework as well. It says in case 4-4 that Phoenix had seen Apollo at the agency when he was 15, but from the judging only from the dialogue in the beginning of 4-1 it feels more like their relationship is at the point where they've just got used to each other, but perhaps that just shows they kept some personal distance to each other. Kristoph seems to be well aware of Apollo's quirks, but it's hard to tell whether he's amused and/or annoyed by them. I'd say Apollo is somewhat repelling to Kristoph, but also kind of impressing. As for the other way around, Apollo has a huge respect and loyalty to Kristoph, mixed with a tiny bit of fear. Which makes it even more impressing that he stood up against him for the sake of truth, and honestly, I think Kristoph felt that too, in an "at least I raised him well" way.

[Snip snip... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib6dBiMyORU ]

Their dialogue in 4-4 points to a more complex relationship though, for example when Kristoph warns Klavi about "spinning out of control" and Klavi asks him if he means Klavier's spinning out of Kristoph's control. I think Klavier always looked up to Kristoph, in a way that gave Kristoph some kind of power over him, a power he never asked for. It's also interesting how Klavier indeed seems sad over the way things had turned, and he's shocked when Apollo calls Kristoph out, be he doesn't seem surprised. Perhaps he didn't expect Kristoph to take things that far, but he was aware of his brother's dark and twisted side.


Oh-hoooh. Definitely, I buy all of this. Not only buy, I sort of took it for granted. :will:
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Nearavex wrote:
I don't think she had any self respect anymore - she valued Dahlia and Phoenix more than anything else, but when Dahlia was convicted, she lost both of them. As a person dependant on others, she must have felt empty - to suddenly return to the Hazakura Temple, with no one but sister Bikini in her life, again. Let's be honest - she does appreciate her foster mother, but I don't think that this would be anyone's idea to spend whole life.

I actually just noticed that Iris is not only similar to Adrian with her dependency issues - but also to Phoenix as well. The strenght of both of them lies in others - however, unlike Phoenix, Iris actually lost the people she relied on, the people she cared about. Even with Phoenix still alive, he treated her as a stranger - who knows how that could have changed even if he knew the truth? - hell, according to most of the fandom, and even her lack of presence in present-day canon, it didn't. At that point, I'm not even surprised she was fine with taking the blame


After reading this, my new headcanon is that Iris is utterly depressed.
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Ooh! Me like.
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I just realized how similar Kristoph is to Dahlia. Let me count the ways!

1. Both of them are the villain in both the first and last case.
2. Both of them had a major connection to the main character.
3. Both of them used poison for at least one of their murders.
4. Both of them had a grudge against a defense attorney other than the main character.
5. Both of them have a facade of kindness and calmness to mask their evil.
6. Both of them have Psyche locks that you never break.
7. Both of them attempt to murder a teenage girl, but fail.

There may be more connections, but that's all I can think of right now.
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What were Dahlia's unbroken Psyche-Locks?
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What is the headcanon part in that deduction?
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Nearavex wrote:
What were Dahlia's unbroken Psyche-Locks?

Last case, last trial day, regarding her and Iris' roles. The secret was out through cross-examination, though. Kristoph's secret still remains unsolved, and no one has a safe answer for it.

GoingforMiles wrote:
What is the headcanon part in that deduction?

It's a conspiracy!
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Between Kristoph and Dahlia? To what end?
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GoingforMiles wrote:
What is the headcanon part in that deduction?

I just couldn't think of a better thread to put that deduction in. It doesn't fit anywhere else.
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"Obvious things you didn't notice right away"?
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JesusMonroe wrote:
"Obvious things you didn't notice right away"?

Damn it! You're right!
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In regards to the Kristoph and Klavier brother-relationship, I think they probably had a distant but amiable relationship. Kristoph was most likely indifferent to his younger brother most of the time, again due to the age difference. But once Klavier got older and still wanted to "copy" him all the time, I actually think Kristoph would have found it flattering. He is a man who clearly cares a lot about what people think about him, and having someone somewhat in awe of him was probably a good stroke to his ego. So when Klavier rejected him utterly in 4.5, that was a real deep cut on his ego.

In regards to Iris, it is clear to me too that she is a deeply troubled woman and has a very frightening (and real) potential to still slip back into old habits. Her actions are not those of a rational human being or even a depressed one -- she's a little too active in crimes to be depressed. My own headcanon for Iris is that she is just as unhinged as Dahlia, just in a slightly different way. Her co-dependency on Dahlia is what keeps her in the role of pawn rather than master-criminal herself and no matter who is in the way, Iris ultimately feels a profound loyalty to Dahlia. Another HC I have that sort of ties into this is that I imagine Dahlia and Iris probably made a pact much like Dahlia made with Terry -- to always be loyal to each other.
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scarlettpeony wrote:
In regards to the Kristoph and Klavier brother-relationship, I think they probably had a distant but amiable relationship. Kristoph was most likely indifferent to his younger brother most of the time, again due to the age difference. But once Klavier got older and still wanted to "copy" him all the time, I actually think Kristoph would have found it flattering. He is a man who clearly cares a lot about what people think about him, and having someone somewhat in awe of him was probably a good stroke to his ego. So when Klavier rejected him utterly in 4.5, that was a real deep cut on his ego.


Doesn't it show in the manga that Kristoph bullied Klavier as a child?

Anyways, here are some ideas of things the characters do in their spare time, not including stuff that's actually canon, such as Edgeworth watching the Steel Samurai.

Apollo is a gamer. I remember him mentioning in GS5 that something reminded him of a video game. I can imagine him getting home from work and playing an FPS online, bursting people's ears from yelling over voice chat.

Maya, Trucy, Ema, and Klavier are also gamers. I can imagine Maya playing a Steel Samurai video game. Come on, given the popularity of the Steel Samurai, there has to be video game adaptations of it in the GS world.

Phoenix is an Otaku. He references Ghost In The Shell in GS3, which hints that he at least has some familiarity with anime. He just seems like the type of guy that would be into that kinda stuff.

Simon enjoys goth music, samurai movies, and crime documentaries.

Franziska enjoys pop music, though she'd never let anyone know that.

Athena loves Sci-Fi, and is the type of girl who'd go to Comic con.
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Re: Headcanon for the series?Topic%20Title
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Quote:
Phoenix EVERYONE is an Otaku.

Fixed. Ms. Hsu's headcanon has long been my own. It only makes sense this way, after all, for the sake of Japanifornia.
Not to mention, we share the same ethnicity, so I feel like we are kindred spirits in more ways than one.
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Re: Headcanon for the series?Topic%20Title
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dimentiorules wrote:
Doesn't it show in the manga that Kristoph bullied Klavier as a child?


Never read the manga. I personally don't consider the manga solid canon because Capcom probably won't honour them if they decide to do something different.

And yes, I think everyone in AA is somewhat Otaku. :edgey:
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You know, a Mario game!

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Here are some more things I think the GS characters would do in their spare time.

Once a month, Apollo, Klavier, Trucy, and Ema get together and play rock band, with Apollo on vocals, Klavier on Guitar, Trucy on bass, and Ema on Drums.

Gumshoe enjoys bowling, although he isn't good at it.

Godot enjoys billiards, and is a real pool shark, never being defeated once.

Larry spends most of his time on dating websites, which is how he ended up meeting most of his girlfriends, who of course inevitably dump him.
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In 3-4, Diego Armando asks Mia Fey if she's ever put salt in her coffee, and then later says the two don't go well together.

My headcanon is this: Since salt is known to reduce the bitterness in coffee, Diego/Godot won't add it to his cup for that exact reason. :javado: :godot:
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dimentiorules wrote:
Here are some more things I think the GS characters would do in their spare time.

Once a month, Apollo, Klavier, Trucy, and Ema get together and play rock band, with Apollo on vocals, Klavier on Guitar, Trucy on bass, and Ema on Drums.

Gumshoe enjoys bowling, although he isn't good at it.

Godot enjoys billiards, and is a real pool shark, never being defeated once.

Larry spends most of his time on dating websites, which is how he ended up meeting most of his girlfriends, who of course inevitably dump him.

All of this makes sense and i can easily picture it.
I'm accepting it as headcanon.
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dimentiorules wrote:
Larry spends most of his time on dating websites, which is how he ended up meeting most of his girlfriends, who of course inevitably dump him.


Poor Larry, why can't he just find happiness like any other character? :larry:
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Cann Kelly wrote:
dimentiorules wrote:
Larry spends most of his time on dating websites, which is how he ended up meeting most of his girlfriends, who of course inevitably dump him.


Poor Larry, why can't he just find happiness like any other character? :larry:


Because he's marked unlucky and no one ever wants him?

The beginning was quite fun, just with all the ups and downs
But suddenly, we’re tired, from a waste of meaningless emotions

시작은 뭐 즐거웠었네 오르락내리락 그 자체로 어느새 서로 지쳐버렸네 의미 없는 감정소모에

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Mary Faraday wrote:
Cann Kelly wrote:
dimentiorules wrote:
Larry spends most of his time on dating websites, which is how he ended up meeting most of his girlfriends, who of course inevitably dump him.


Poor Larry, why can't he just find happiness like any other character? :larry:


Because he's marked unlucky and no one ever wants him?


I'd say it's because he's an unmotivated lazy ass with zero prospects in life and no long-term plan for himself or a partner. Larry may be fun in the short-term, but doesn't have much to offer a woman beyond that. Or more specifically, he doesn't have much to offer the high-maintenance women he's constantly chasing. Nothing wrong with dating models, but he's not very realistic about their lifestyles, his and theirs.
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I'd say it's because of his name. Takumi cursed him the day he was born.
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Phoenix is an orphan. How else would you explain how he's the only main playable character who's parents never appeared nor were even mentioned, despite being the main protagonist? I mean, if he did have parents, wouldn't you think they'd support him when he was falsely accused of stealing lunch money, for instance? His parents died when he was very young, and he grew up in an orphanage.
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