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Re: GS4 Spoiler DiscussionTopic%20Title
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So moe for Makoto it's funny.

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Aw, that really is adorable. So I guess that (being so shy) is why she

Spoiler:
communicates through picture emotes?



Also, I hear if you get the "bad ending"...

Spoiler:
She dies. That makes me sad. :(

What happens in the bad ending, anyway?

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Re: GS4 Spoiler DiscussionTopic%20Title
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CantFaketheFunk wrote:
Aw, that really is adorable. So I guess that (being so shy) is why she

Spoiler:
communicates through picture emotes?


Spoiler:
Exactly. Minuki tells her to say something she said with a totally emotionless face with a smile instead (forgot what it was, probably just the introduction) and then she says it the same way again, holding up a picture of a smile. The picture is actually signed, too. Totally sweet Larry


CantFaketheFunk wrote:
Also, I hear if you get the "bad ending"...

Spoiler:
She dies. That makes me sad. :(

What happens in the bad ending, anyway?


Spoiler: bad ending
It's barely a real ending, just a little text with the grayed-out court as background.

Unlike what some people say, you do NOT choose if you win or lose. You get to control one of six jury members, all other vote not guilty at that point. If you vote not guilty too, Makoto is ruled not guilty. If you push guilty, the trial is postponed because there's no proper verdict (all have to vote the same) and Makoto doesn't live through the night, so the trial will never be re-opened.

See, Makoto gets a little of the poison that killed her father as well and is in the ICU during the last day of trial.
Re: GS4 Spoiler DiscussionTopic%20Title

I wish I spoke Japanese :(

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Spoiler:
so...heres all the quesationable spoilers ive heard Hobohodo = Minuki father (99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999% doubt it) Odoroki =sibling to Minuki (sounds true) camera on Hobohodo beenie thingy can see future and past(confirmed)i cant go on......................... Yanni-faint
Re: GS4 Spoiler DiscussionTopic%20Title

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even though i dont have GS4 im starting to understand these spoilers (sort of) Payne ( Cough young phoenix is fun (even though he had a terible disease Sadshoe )
Re: GS4 Spoiler DiscussionTopic%20Title

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Alright, this would be better off in the Just One Thing thread, but I'll try to explain those spoilers...
Spoiler: The First One
Yes, Phoenix is Minuki's father, but only adopted.

Spoiler: The Second One
Yes, Odoroki and Minuki are half-brother and sister. Same mother, diferent father.

Spoiler: The Last One
Yes, the button on Phoenix's hat is a a camera. It allows you to 'go back to the past' in Case 4, and is known as The Mason System. In the past you play as Phoenix, BTW.

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Re: GS4 Spoiler DiscussionTopic%20Title
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So moe for Makoto it's funny.

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The bad ending sounds sad. ;_;
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Re: GS4 Latest Infos [Spoiler section.... be warned!]Topic%20Title

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Kryptik wrote:
Spoiler:
Yeah...I can't buy Minuki being the biological kinder of Hobohodou.

Something is up...

If it really did say that in game...perhaps Phoenix is lying about it. Perhaps to protect Minuki or himself...or perhaps the 'real' parents.


Spoiler:
im 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% sure this is correct!!!! Ka-Whip
Re: GS4 Spoiler DiscussionTopic%20Title

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Did you HAVE to include so many 9's that it considerably stretches the screen even at 1280x1024?
Re: GS4 Spoiler DiscussionTopic%20Title

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I don't have the game, but...

Judging by the sound of this, the whole "new main character" thing is a ploy. Phoenix'll be back as the main character in GS5, I'm sure. Most likely Maya and other PW characters will be back as well.
Phoenix is totally Jewish.
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"What is this...?"

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Oh yeah- 3 out of 4 cases in the game involve Phoenix and in case 4
Spoiler:
you get to play as him again for half the case.
That said, I'm kind of hoping that GS5 uses Phoenix and his new outfit- if Kyouya can arrive in court looking like the rock star that he is, why can't Phoenix arrive looking like a hobo?
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Yeah, I'm totally watching you.

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Personally: I believe this is what will happen as far as Future GS games:

Spoiler: GS4 Endgame
Since Phoenix presumably regains his badge after GS4, I believe that Capcom (being Capcom) will split the series into two arcs, one for Odoroki (Which retains the numbers) and one for Phoenix (Which either alternates numbers with Odoroki or else has it's own title scheme). While it's also possible to have the two plotlines interweave in one series of games, I believe that it's rather possible that Capcom would do this to squeeze the GS name to its illogical maxium. Wall Bang Objection

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Re: GS4 Spoiler DiscussionTopic%20Title

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Odoroki's series should have been Gyakuten Saiban X.
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Right, one thing I've never gotten...

Spoiler: 4-4
Why did Kirihito fake evidence and pass it on to Phoenix? Was he just jealous of an attorney better than him?

Hi! I've largely stepped back from C-R due to life stuff. Please contact one of the other staff members for help!

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Re: GS4 Spoiler DiscussionTopic%20Title
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Bolt Storm wrote:
Right, one thing I've never gotten...

Spoiler: 4-4
Why did Kirihito fake evidence and pass it on to Phoenix? Was he just jealous of an attorney better than him?



Spoiler: GS4 Case 4
Back then, during the case SEVEEEEEEEN YEEEARS AGOOOO, the Garyuu brothers were only rookies in the field of law, while Naruhodou was famous for his wins. Kirihito was, in fact, jealous, and wanted to find out a way to show that Naruhodou used illegal ways to win his cases. He couldn't, though, and decided to bring Naruhodou down by using forged evidence, which he gave to Naruhodou, and told Kyouya about beforehand.

Naruhodou used the forged evidence in court. Kyouya pointed this out. Naruhodou lost his badge.


That's pretty much it, unless I got something wrong somewhere. *Very neophyte Japanese skills*
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Spoiler: "question about the good/bad ending"
... What's the point? You get to choose whether you want a guilty or not guilty? Since you're playing as the protagonist, you obviously want a not guilty. In the other games, it wasn't so obvious. What kind of ending you got was left up to your deductive skills (or your walkthrough :P). What is the incentive for choosing "guilty"? What's the point of giving the player that choice?"

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Orcaizer Al wrote:
Spoiler: GS4 Case 4
Back then, during the case SEVEEEEEEEN YEEEARS AGOOOO, the Garyuu brothers were only rookies in the field of law, while Naruhodou was famous for his wins. Kirihito was, in fact, jealous, and wanted to find out a way to show that Naruhodou used illegal ways to win his cases. He couldn't, though, and decided to bring Naruhodou down by using forged evidence, which he gave to Naruhodou, and told Kyouya about beforehand.

Naruhodou used the forged evidence in court. Kyouya pointed this out. Naruhodou lost his badge.


That's pretty much it, unless I got something wrong somewhere. *Very neophyte Japanese skills*

Spoiler:
Actually, Kirihito was to defend Zack himhelf, and forged the evidence to ensure he'd win. However, he played poker with Naruhodou in the detention cell in front of Zack and lost. Zack realized that Kirihito was a mean guy deep inside and decided to change lawyers. Kirihito then used the forged evidence to bring Naruhodou down out of hurt pride. He killed Zack seven years later for the same reason.


EDIT:

Spoiler: Bad Ending
You only get to push the button for one out of the jury. You still need to play the case to convince everyone else, as the sentence is only given when all choose the same. Again: you don't get to choose if you win or lose the case. If you do anything wrong up to that point, you'll lose just like you did in the other games.
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Ryu-kun wrote:
Spoiler: Bad Ending
You only get to push the button for one out of the jury. You still need to play the case to convince everyone else, as the sentence is only given when all choose the same. Again: you don't get to choose if you win or lose the case. If you do anything wrong up to that point, you'll lose just like you did in the other games.



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Re: GS4 Spoiler DiscussionTopic%20Title
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So moe for Makoto it's funny.

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Spoiler: case 4
And if you vote guilty and get Makoto killed I'll never forgive you. Zenitora

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Re: GS4 Spoiler DiscussionTopic%20Title
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So, nobody really knows why Phoenix became a hobo?
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Bassist1955 wrote:
So, nobody really knows why Phoenix became a hobo?


.......... Nick Honestly pay attention.

Spoiler: HUGE GS4 SPOILORZ!
He got his badge taken off him coz he got caught using falsified evidence.

fuck
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I get the feeling that they had this storyline just so they could get Phoenix a new enemy.
Phoenix is totally Jewish.
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IZSBHR wrote:
I get the feeling that they had this storyline just so they could get Phoenix a new enemy.


Spoiler:
Garyuu's actually his friend.


And while Odoroki's certainly overshadowed by Phoenix, he's still a very engageing character.
fuck
Re: GS4 Spoiler DiscussionTopic%20Title
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SCIENCE!

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DarzieP wrote:
IZSBHR wrote:
I get the feeling that they had this storyline just so they could get Phoenix a new enemy.


Spoiler:
Garyuu's actually his friend.

Um, what?
Re: GS4 Spoiler DiscussionTopic%20Title

I wish I spoke Japanese :(

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dat makes no sence Yani Fist (ima crazy person Yanni Yogi )
Re: GS4 Spoiler DiscussionTopic%20Title

I wish I spoke Japanese :(

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TheDarkArchon wrote:
Did you HAVE to include so many 9's that it considerably stretches the screen even at 1280x1024?

yes.....yes i did Yanni Yogi
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Guess_Who wrote:
DarzieP wrote:
IZSBHR wrote:
I get the feeling that they had this storyline just so they could get Phoenix a new enemy.


Spoiler:
Garyuu's actually his friend.

Um, what?

Spoiler:
Garyuu was the only person to not vote for Hobohodo to lose his badge, while Hobohodo suspected Garyuu was responsible, he never had any proof, and became his friend to get close to him and discover the truth.
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OK, I know this is hideously off-topic, but why the hell did Sweden's Eurovision entry remind me of Garyuu Wave? They're nothing like each other, but all the way through I kept thinking 'God- this reminds me of Kyouya. Why does this remind me of Kyouya? Why do I actually like a song from Eurovison? Probably because it reminds me of Kyouya.'
Actually the lead singer reminded me more of Max.... Pshhh...
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Spoiler: 4-1, 4-4
It looks to me that Garyuu didn't vote against Nick because he didn't need to, and he thought that was the best way of easing suspicion off himself. Also, if he was close to Nick, he could set him up if Zakku/Urafushi came back. When Nick befrended him, he must have thought everything was going to plan :F

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About Gumshoe
Spoiler:
I heard that he quit his job out of protest because of Hobohodo losing his badge. Is this true? Because I couldn't find anything about it in the summaries.


Also is it me or

Spoiler:
did Kirihito seem a lot like a Von Karma clone? What with his talks of perfection and all.
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Tomoshibi Amatsu wrote:
Also is it me or

Spoiler:
did Kirihito seem a lot like a Von Karma clone? What with his talks of perfection and all.



Spoiler: 4-4
I was almost expecting Kirihito to reveal he was the illegitimate child of Manfred von Karma when I read the 4-4 summary.
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About case 1
Spoiler:
I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but I don't think Phoenix has really sunk so low to use fake evidence. The bloody ace wasn't Phoenix cheating to win. It was more of a symbol. One that Kirihito recognized considering Kirihito says "Curse you Phoenix Wright! Is this revenge for the case seven years ago?" Phoenix effectively did to Kirihito exactly what Kirihito had done to him and had thus gotten his revenge for the incident.

So no I don't think Phoenix has bad ethic's now. He has the same ethic's he has always had. He just chose at that one time to go against ethical standards because

1. He's not a lawyer anymore
2. To pay Kirihito back for what happened seven years earlier.

So in the end I think it's wrong to say that Phoenix has lost sight of his ethic's Because other than that one instance he hasn't shown that he has lost sight of his ethic's.


and that leads me to Case 4
Spoiler:
Phoenix had effectively gotten his revenge on Kirihito back on case 1. Now he had to focus all his attention on his secret plan. Which from what I'm guessing was to not only to expose Kirihito as the mastermind over the murder's of Zakku and doboruku as well as the mastermind over Makoto's poisoning, but also to clear his own name.

I believe from the start he set the whole thing up in order to settle things with Kirihito once and for all, but also to prove his innocence to the court and the world (considering getting his badge revoked was probably big news) showing them that he was never behind the fake evidence that Kirihito had set him up with seven years ago.

Using the Jury system for the case was just the final nail in the coffin. After all Phoenix knew he didn't have enough substantial proof in order to expose Kirihito and get him convicted. However, using the mason system and the Juror's he didn't need substantial proof. Using the mason system he was able to show firsthand why Kirihito was the one at fault for not only this case, but the one seven years ago, and since this case was able to tie in to the events seven years ago Phoenix was effectively able to not only settle things with Kirihito once and for all, but clear his name.

In fact it was really Kirihito who screwed up. If he hadn't tried killing Doburoku there would have been nothing Phoenix could have tied the case back too since he couldn't prove at the time that Urafushi was indeed Zakku since practically everyone thought Zakku disappeared forever.

Also Phoenix could have never done it without Makoto's love of Arumajiki merchandise. If she hadn't kept that stamp for those seven years and Doburoku had died before then Phoenix would have never gotten all the proof he needed to clear his name.

You can call it a bit underhanded, but it was pure genius.


As for Phoenix's line at the end of the game.
Spoiler:
I can't see why he couldn't take the bar test again and regain his badge. At least then he could re-open Wright and Co Law Offices, but still run his talent agency out of it as well. He'd just make Odoroki do all the law work considering if Odoroki would be working for Phoenix. That way Phoenix would be more Odoroki's mentor than jumping into Odoroki's spotlight come GS5. Just my opinion though.
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To Tomoshibi:

Spoiler:
I disagree--I think Phoenix stepped over the line when presenting fake evidence. If Kirihito had been a little less sharp, and declared outright that Phoenix's ace was a fake because HE still had the real one, it would have ruined Odoroki's career. He would have been disbarred just like Phoenix was. How could Odoroki defend himself? It's almost exactly the same situation Phoenix got himself into.

Phoenix put his desire to nail Kirihito above any concern for Odoroki, which is pretty far outside his usual ethics. And then there's also the Mason System; Phoenix had to have altered the truth before showing his account to the jury, with all the time skipping and such. He clearly manipulated the law.

Not that I'm complaining, 'cause I happen to really like asshole!Phoenix XD.

But I do admit I don't think it's as far a step outside his character as some people think it is. Phoenix has always been willing to lie to criminals in order to trick them into confessing. He lied to Killer in 2-4 about the video tape to turn him against Matt.


Spoiler: "Brief 3-3 spoiler"
Phoenix did the same thing to Kirihito as he did to Zenitora in case 3, except that in 4-1 he carried on his trick longer. If Phoenix had said, "Hey Kirihito, check out this ace!" and Kirihito replied, "That's not real. I already got rid of that ace!" that would have been considered a confession and he'd be thrown away. It's not that much different than "Hey Zenitora, check out this botttle!" Except in 4-1 the bluff didn't work and he pressed forward anyway.

So as shocking as it is that Phoenix would go so far as to honestly forge evidence, it's not like he hadn't been bending rules slightly until then. Just now, he breaks them. It was a calculated risk to catch a killer.


Spoiler: "Kirihito's characterization"
I think Kirihito differs from Karma in that it wasn't that Kirihito considered himself perfect, but that the law itself was perfect. The law was absolute, and he found a way to take advantage of it that should have prevented him from ever being caught. It was the fact that Phoenix ruined the system, not his personal perfection, that drove Kirihito crazy at the end.

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To Croik.

Spoiler:
Make no mistake I also like asshole Phoenix, but let's not get too hasty here. I mean sure it's undeneniable that Phoenix used fake evidence in that case, but he used it more as another one of his famous bluff's. However, I will admit that it was a really dirty trick to use, but it was very effective. After all Kirihito did screw up by saying that the card Odoroki presented WAS a fake, which caused Phoenix to say that to Kirihito's face that only the real killer would know. Sure the grape juice bottle switch proved Phoenix's innocence, but you have to admit Phoenix got Kirihito into checkmate the second he made Odoroki present that card. After all there's nothing Kirihito could have done. He was trapped. If he did say the card was fake that WOULD have been a confession.

Besides it wasn't really the exact same situation considering Phoenix was set up from the beginning with no knowledge of the fake evidence. Odoroki was as well, but the only people who knew it was fake was Phoenix, Minuki, and of course Kirihito the real killer. Also in the end Phoenix was honest about it to Odoroki despite being punched afterwards.

The only real difference between Phoenix's bluff in this case and in his past cases is that Phoenix was good at bluffing people with real evidence into confessing. However, with someone like Kirihito who solely believes in true factual evidence. Phoenix had to pull a few dirty tricks in order to get Kirihito to fall for his bluff. I doubt Phoenix could trick Kirihito the way he did De Killer.

It's not that Phoenix is out to purposely break the rules either. It's just that in the case of Kirihito he had no other choice considering the people he's been able to bluff were pretty paranoid to begin with. Besides I would think Phoenix does have some concern over Odoroki. I admit it seemed like Phoenix only thought of him as his personal tool of revenge at first, but as is shown by the end of the game Phoenix cares about Odoroki as much as Minuki.

Moving on to case 4-4
Spoiler:
As far as the mason system goes we really have no idea how much of it was "made up." It's not like Phoenix planted the evidence incriminating Kirihito in that last case. The mason system proved Kirihito's guilt through the people Phoenix talked too and the items he showed to them. The whole thing with the psycho locks and all were just for the player. In reality the juror's may have just been watching Hobo Nick's home movies. In any case this was enough to incriminate Kirihito and since it's arguable that the camera in his hat belonged to Ema you could say that Ema also crossed the line as well if we're going to go there.
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Spoiler:
Tomo, the part I was disagreeing with was where you implied that what Phoenix did in 4-1 (and to a lesser extent, 4-4) was within the bounds of ethics, which I don't believe it was. I understand why he did it, but it doesn't change the fact that he DID break very serious rules as far as the law is concerned, and it would have been enough to ruin Odoroki's career forever.

That's not something Phoenix would have done before. Even GS4 shows that Phoenix's ethics, before he was disbarred, were very much intact - he was willing to sacrifice himself for his client's sake. He's always been willing to bend the rules a little to get to the truth. But years later he acted with blatant disregard for Odoroki, Odoroki's career, and especially his feelings. It was illegal and unethical, regardless of whether it worked.

Makes for damn good drama, but I can't really defend his actions as being "the right thing to do."

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Spoiler:
Well then I guess you're right about that Croik. Though I would chalk Phoenix doing stuff like that up to him not being a lawyer anymore so he could get away with doing it. Not because he's lost sight of his ethic's. I mean if Phoenix ever did return as a defense attorney again don't you think he'd probably go back to the old Phoenix we all know and love? I'm not saying he'd completely lose all the asshole-ness he had in this game, but I doubt he'd ever stoop so low if he actually did come back as a defense attorney again. If anything my feeling is that Kirihito was just someone Phoenix couldn't beat without breaking the rules.

What I'm really getting at is that Phoenix hasn't really changed all that much from his old self. In GS4 not being a lawyer just made it easier for Phoenix to pull dirty tricks like that to beat Kirihito considering I'm sure Phoenix felt that there was no other way to catch him. I'm not saying what he did was right, but I do think he trusted Odoroki enough to pull off his plans because of Odoroki's ability to use the Minuku system. That's why he always chose Odoroki specifically. I don't think he intentionally would want to ruin Odoroki's career. After all Phoenix does say that Odoroki and Minuki are important parts of his life now.
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Spoiler: My Opinions, 4-1 and 1-5
From my personal opinion, the reason Nick got disbarred was because he had no-one to back him up. With Orodoki, if Nick owned up, the he wouldn't be disbarred. It's like Edgeworth taking the rap for the mistakes of the SL-9 case, he didn't get disbarred because of it. His reputation just diminished.

But thats my opinion anyways.
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Spoiler:
But would Phoenix Wright backing him up really count for anything? If, after Kirihito was arrested, he handed over his original of the Ace (he's already in jail, it doesn't do him any good to hide it), how could Odoroki defend himself? Saying that he received a piece of evidence from his own client--a known forger--and didn't consider the possibility that it was fake is still shooting yourself in the foot.

It'd be even less believable if he said "some kid in the lobby gave it to me."

If Phoenix fessed up it might have spared Odoroki his badge, but I don't think it would his reptuation. And to be honest, I don't think Phoenix would have confessed anyway, if it meant Kirihito could then file an appeal and possibly get away again.

I understand why Phoenix felt he had to go that far, but it's still a pretty callous thing to do. And deserving of fist to face :D

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Croik wrote:
Spoiler:
I disagree--I think Phoenix stepped over the line when presenting fake evidence. If Kirihito had been a little less sharp, and declared outright that Phoenix's ace was a fake because HE still had the real one, it would have ruined Odoroki's career. He would have been disbarred just like Phoenix was. How could Odoroki defend himself? It's almost exactly the same situation Phoenix got himself into.

Phoenix put his desire to nail Kirihito above any concern for Odoroki, which is pretty far outside his usual ethics. And then there's also the Mason System; Phoenix had to have altered the truth before showing his account to the jury, with all the time skipping and such. He clearly manipulated the law.

Not that I'm complaining, 'cause I happen to really like asshole!Phoenix XD.

But I do admit I don't think it's as far a step outside his character as some people think it is. Phoenix has always been willing to lie to criminals in order to trick them into confessing. He lied to Killer in 2-4 about the video tape to turn him against Matt.



Spoiler:
Hell, HE EVEN DOES IT IN THE SECOND CASE OF HIS CAREER WHEN MIA GIVES HIM THE NOTE WITH THE NAMES ON IT! I've mentioned this before, but even if it's Mia telling him to do something, it's still Phoenix using an underhanded tactic to win a trial. There's a precedent of unethical!Phoenix that many people seem to ignore.

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Spoiler:
I never said he didn't deserve the slap in the face :D And he was out of line. But I'm just illustrating that there's a less of a jump between Nick and HoboNick than people think (Linking to yours and Hatmans opinions)

Also, if Orodoki got caught, Kirihito would be freed/retried anyway. I think Nick would have took the fall, but it falls down to personal opinion :3

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Croik wrote:
Spoiler:
But would Phoenix Wright backing him up really count for anything? If, after Kirihito was arrested, he handed over his original of the Ace (he's already in jail, it doesn't do him any good to hide it), how could Odoroki defend himself? Saying that he received a piece of evidence from his own client--a known forger--and didn't consider the possibility that it was fake is still shooting yourself in the foot.

It'd be even less believable if he said "some kid in the lobby gave it to me."

If Phoenix fessed up it might have spared Odoroki his badge, but I don't think it would his reptuation. And to be honest, I don't think Phoenix would have confessed anyway, if it meant Kirihito could then file an appeal and possibly get away again.

I understand why Phoenix felt he had to go that far, but it's still a pretty callous thing to do. And deserving of fist to face :D



Spoiler:
Well that's the thing I guess. I mean the reason Phoenix had his badge taken away in the first place was because he admitted to forging the evidence Kirihito had sabotaged him with. As for what happened in case 1. Makes you wonder why Kirihito didn't reveal the real bloody ace when he could have. Perhaps Phoenix knew that Kirihito would dispose of such evidence so it could never be used. Which is why I think he felt safe in trusting Odoroki to use it.

After all to Kirihito evidence is everything and what better way to keep yourself from being incriminated then by destroying the evidence that could do just that. Heck if anything he probably also destroyed that letter in case 4 too. It's just a good thing Odoroki could get a reproduction of it thanks to Phoenix.

Still in any case it was a good bluff though. Sort of like when Phoenix said the handkerchief with Ema's fingerprints on it didn't exist before he brought it out and owned Gant with it back in Ace Attorney case 5. I can agree with you about Phoenix not covering all his bases so yeah he did deserve that punch... Even though I bet Phoenix's punch would be more powerful because he would put a Take that in there. XD

Speaking of which. I went back over case 5 of Ace Attorney again and the thing I don't get is... Why did Phoenix get such a much more harsh punishment than say... Edgeworth? Heck in case 5 Udgy even says that the review committee will be giving a harsh punishment to Edgeworth after the whole thing with the SL-9 forged evidence, yet he was able to keep his job. So if Edgeworth could keep his job no problem why did Phoenix get the boot? I'm smelling a contradiction series wise.

Or am I wrong and the reason is because Phoenix openly admitted to the forging to save his client when he really had no knowledge of the forged evidence beforehand. While Edgewoth just didn't know about it being fake beforehand?
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