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Phoenix and Kristoph's relationshipTopic%20Title
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After replaying some parts of GS4, I'm a bit confused on some points. Namely, what Phoenix and Kristoph really thought of each other during those 7 years, and when Phoenix actually started to suspect Kristoph.
When I first played, I was under the impression that Phoenix had been suspecting Kristoph from the beginning, and basically spent those 7 years setting up the jury system. But now I'm not so sure.

When you talk to Vera during the MASON system in the past, Phoenix breaks her psyche-locks by presenting the nail polish bottle, then Kristoph's profile. Even though Vera doesn't admit that the client was Kristoph, Phoenix has no doubts about it.
The problem is that the MASON section is full of time-travelling contradictions. Here, Phoenix got the bottle from Kristoph in the present. So, the way things actually happened is not the same as what the game shows. I can see 2 possibilities:
- Phoenix somehow obtained (or just saw) Kristoph's nail polish at some point in the past, or
- Phoenix hadn't seen Kristoph's nail polish at the time, which means he never actually broke Vera's psyche-locks.

I doubt there's a definitive answer on this. Now if we look at other scenes.

When you talk to Zak during the MASON system in the present, he mention seeing Gavin. This is apparently pretty important. Later, Phoenix says this:

Quote:
From the moment my "final
competition" with Zak began
that night...

...a name was running
through my head.

...The name of a man now in
prison.

...A name Zak Gramarye knew.
But how? And why...?


And then when you talk to Kristoph, also during MASON:

Quote:
<Phoenix>
After that trial, you were
arrested and found guilty.

But your motive was never
made clear.
[...]

<Kristoph>
I killed a man named "Smith"
with a bottle because I am
an evil human being.

...Isn't that enough?

<Phoenix>
(...Not for me, it isn't.)

(I need to know why you
did it, Gavin.)


Quote:
<Phoenix>
You didn't just brain a guy
with a juice bottle for no
reason.

Tell me why you did it.

<Kristoph>
...Persistent, aren't you?

<Phoenix>
I came here... because I
remembered something.

The night of our "game"...

...Zak Gramarye mentioned your
name, Gavin.

<Zak>
Ah, that reminds me...

I saw a familiar face as I
entered this restaurant.

...He did not seem to
notice me, however.

<Phoenix>
...?

<Zak>
Gavin... I believe was his
name.

<Phoenix>
...After that, he was killed.
And I asked you to help me.

...Because I remembered your
kindness back when everyone
had turned on me.
[...]

<Phoenix>
...I have to know.

Why did you kill Shadi Smith?
No... Zak Gramarye!?


There are several things to note here:

- Phoenix says that he came because Zak mentioned Kristoph's name. This seems to imply that before that, Phoenix didn't know that Kristoph had been Zak's previous lawyer.

- Phoenix seems almost desperate to hear Kristoph's motive. Even though he probably suspects it, it seems that he has no certainty. And maybe it doesn't want it to be true (but I'm probably reading too much into it).
Of course, it's also possible that Phoenix is just being manipulative and is trying to get Kristoph to confess so he can record it with his hidden camera.

- Apparently, at the time Zak was killed, Phoenix really considered Kristoph his friend. But again, maybe he was just being manipulative when he said that...

Then there's another scene:

Quote:
<Phoenix>
You recall that case seven
years ago?
[...]

...That was when I met you,
wasn't it?

<Kristoph>
Was it now.

<Phoenix>
The Bar Association review
board voted unanimously for
the "strictest punishment".

Unanimous... save for one
dissenting opinion. Yours.

<Kristoph>
......

It was my brother who was
responsible for putting you
in that position, after all.

<Phoenix>
For seven years we've been
friends...

...and yet, I still don't
understand you.

<Kristoph>
But Wright, your "friendship"
toward me was never pure.

...You suspected me then as
you still do now, don't you?

<Phoenix>
...Honestly, right now, I'm
not sure what I think.


Here, Kristoph claims that Phoenix has suspected him all these years. But Kristoph is a bit paranoid, and Phoenix's reply is very vague. Again, in this scene it seems to me that Phoenix really considered Kristoph his friend.

So now, my impression is that Phoenix only started to really suspect Kristoph of the forgery after he met Zak again. And I'm also thinking that he didn't start working on the jury system until after Kristoph was convicted.

But aside from the fact that these conversations can be interpreted in various ways, they all come from the MASON section, which, as I've said earlier, is unreliable due to the contradictions.
So I may be wrong, and I'd like to hear your thought about that.


Another thing I want to mention; at the end of case 4-1, Phoenix says this:

Quote:
Kristoph Gavin...

...was a man with much
significance for me.

Both as a friend... and a
lawyer.

This seems important, but I really don't know how to interpret this. If someone has an idea, I'll be glad to hear it.


Finally, about what Kristoph thought of Phoenix. It's rather obvious he didn't have a high opinion of Phoenix and only pretented to be his friend, but... I don't know, I think he was doing more than necessary. The Borscht Bowl Club doesn't seem like his kind of place, yet he frequently dined there with Phoenix. That seems a lot to do just to keep tabs on someone... but then again, Kristoph is paranoid and a bit crazy, so I wouldn't put it past him.

During Phoenix's trial, it seems Kristoph is really trying to help Phoenix (and pin the crime on Olga), even though he didn't have much to lose personally, since Apollo was the lawyer, not him. Granted, maybe his office's reputation would have sufffered anyway if Apollo had lost. But when Phoenix accuses him, Kristoph seems to feel betrayed. I know that's not evidence of anything, but I thought that was interesting.

Thoughts?
Re: Phoenix and Kristoph's relationshipTopic%20Title

The King of All

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Honestly, I think that last quote Phoenix says is just him being either a friend to Gavin because it sounds like he's saying that he needed a friend by his side during the time after he was disbarred.

Then again during and after the murder of Shadi, it seemed apparent that Phoenix lost trust and friendship in Kristoph, which seems obvious when he chooses Apollo as his defense attorney and when he knows how the whole murder happened, since he did have forged evidence ready for Apollo to present.

I think it could be read as manipulative and friendly. :hobohodo:
The king of all, Sir Duke
Re: Phoenix and Kristoph's relationshipTopic%20Title
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earthlings on fire

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I think the MASON system requires you to not think too much about it and just appreciate it for what it is on the surface-- a really cool way to figure out Kristoph's guilt.

This is something I've thought a lot about since I played Apollo Justice and I think their relationship is fascinating. I'll admit however that most of what I thought about is speculation and not based on much evidence because frankly, we're not given too much to go on.

But from the outset, I'm pretty confident that Phoenix threw his complete trust at Kristoph right after he was disbarred. That's the kind of guy Phoenix is; he's foolishly trusting of everyone. He was alone and in a dark place that for whatever reason, didn't seem to include his old friends (Edgeworth, Maya, Ema, Gumshoe, etc). So he was probably blind to any warning signs if they existed and thought that Kristoph's help was miraculous. I'm pretty sure that Kristoph, on the other hand, initially had no genuine interest in how Phoenix actually felt, focusing instead on making himself look like a perfect angel, completely undeserving of any suspicion.

Quote:
<Phoenix>
...After that, he was killed.
And I asked you to help me.

...Because I remembered your
kindness back when everyone
had turned on me.
[...]


I think Phoenix was being honest here. His defining characteristic is seeing the good in people and as I mentioned, he wasn't in a good place.

I think slowly, over the years, Phoenix began to crawl back up from rock bottom and examine his situation a little more objectively. By doing so, I think he began to realize what really went on. He probably denied it for awhile, as it would have been really upsetting to realize his closest friend had done something so terrible, but nevertheless he started to accept the truth and try to subtly bring Kristoph down.

Quote:
<Kristoph>
But Wright, your "friendship"
toward me was never pure.

...You suspected me then as
you still do now, don't you?


I think it kind of worked the opposite way for Kristoph. He started out with 100% deceptive intentions but after faking it for so long I think he started to actually befriend Phoenix. Like you said, he seemed to being doing more than necessary and I think that this human part of Kristoph became his downfall. He became trusting in a bit if a naive, Phoenix-like way. I think the above quote was his way of trying to hide, trying to pretend he thought the whole time that Phoenix never trusted him.

I think this trust becomes evident with the proximity Kristoph places himself in in 4-1. He's right smack in the middle of the whole mess (obviously, being the murderer, but I also mean he doesn't try to remove himself in his facade) and it was damn risky. If he was confident that Phoenix knew it was him (and by this point, judging by Phoenix's uncharacteristic lack of emotion in this case, Phoenix was certain by that point) then he probably would have tried to remove himself from the situation and NOT suggest being his lawyer. It would have been simple to argue not defending him-- conflict of interest.

Kristoph's far from stupid, and I think he realized what Phoenix was doing soon after it Apollo was requested as defense. But what still stumps me a bit is why he seemed so damn eager to put Olga Orly away for Enigmar's murder. But I think it's a combination of trying to start to remove himself from the situation he had walked into and a bit of remaining respect for Phoenix and his demonstrated cleverness. His over-the-top reactions to Phoenix in court? I like to chalk that up to Ace Attorney charm, obviously no characters' personalities are really relevant in the dramatic breakdowns in the series--those are cartoony humour. I think he felt betrayal and anger at himself for letting his guard down and befriending the 'enemy'.

--

Quote:
Kristoph Gavin...

...was a man with much
significance for me.

Both as a friend... and a
lawyer.


What he's getting at is that Kristoph was important to him on a personal level. They were close for years he was a big part of Phoenix's life. But he was also important on a grander scale, too. He showed Phoenix that not all defense attorneys are like him. Some of them, (ie Kristoph) were willing to go to extreme lengths. If Phoenix ever wanted to survive in the legal world again, he would have to wake up and realize the world was darker than he thought and would have liked to believe. Kristoph allowed Phoenix to realize how corrupt the legal system was...
A theme that is very unsubtley referenced time and time again in Dual Destinies. Whether or not the game ever makes this connection, I think the overarching, big themes of corruption (as opposed to the limited and more personal ones we've seen with Edgeworth) started with 4-1 and Kristoph.
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...and there's fifteen feet of pure white snow
Re: Phoenix and Kristoph's relationshipTopic%20Title
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The video game boy; the one who wins

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I agree that their relationship is fascinating, and even if both of them were suspicious of each other and eventually wanted to take the other down, I think they still enjoyed each other's company as friends on some level.
(......Ack! I've run out of snide comments!)
Re: Phoenix and Kristoph's relationshipTopic%20Title
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In my interpretation, Phoenix accepted Kristoph friendship genuinely, until he found out the truth after talking with Vera. From then on, it was all about keeping close to him in order to uncover the truth at the right moment. Still, he did not have any real reason to suspect Kristoph of murdering Shadi until the former commented on the latter's bald head, so I can only assume he really was asking for his help.

Kristoph on the other hand... I think he did slowly warm up on Phoenix, actually. He felt sort of sympathy towards him, but still, he still was in strong disagreement with Phoenix's methods and his undeserved in his opinion fame. So, he was fine with Phoenix. Just not as a lawyer. Obviously all of that ceased to matter after Phoenix turned against him.


Last edited by Sligneris on Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Phoenix and Kristoph's relationshipTopic%20Title
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Apollon Flame

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Ugh... Kristoph really is a complicated character. We could say he did everything because he had a heavy conscious on him, a devil whispering to his ear, or because he wanted everything under his neat control so that his image wouldn't be damaged.
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in name


alone...
Re: Phoenix and Kristoph's relationshipTopic%20Title
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[Whip the cream!]

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Sligneris wrote:
In my interpretation, Phoenix accepted Kristoph friendship genuinely, until he found out the truth after talking with Vera. From then on, it was all about keeping close to him in order to uncover the truth at the right moment. Still, he did not have any real reason to suspect Kristoph of murdering Shadi until tge former commented on the latter's bald head, so I can only assume he really was asking for his help.

Kristoph on the other hand... I think he did slowly warm up on Phoenix, actually. He felt sort of sympathy towards him, but still, he still was in strong disagreement with Phoenix's methods and his undeserved in his opinion fame. So, he was fine with Phoenix. Just not as a lawyer. Obviously all of that ceased to matter after Phoenix turned turned against him.


Oui, I think I agree here!
Gimme a "P"! Gimme an "I"! Give me a "P" and an "E"! What's that spell?! Pipe!
Re: Phoenix and Kristoph's relationshipTopic%20Title
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Thanks. Now please, fix your quote, I cannot look at this typo there... and this repeated word there... ;_;
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