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Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title
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Many things pissed me off about this game.

Spoiler:
1.
:hobohodo: "Ah, I've got another game! It's time for me to shine!"

:odoroki: "*Looks at the title of the game.* Actually, it's my game. C'mon, it's my turn now."

:hobohodo: "Excuse me? Uhm, who's the star of the series? Me. I'm the best, you suck, it's my game. F*** off."

:odoroki: "..."

2. Machi. I hate his guts. Why, he's a taint on the game. Non-literally, being a boring character in the game, and literally, being the space between your privates and your butthole.

3. Not enough :eh?: . Gumshoe was the heart and soul of the first games. And we only get a small amount of The Shoe in this game. It's like when you eat a free sample at a grocery store, it tastes great, but you want more. It's not filling, dammit!

4. There's only four cases. What a ripoff.

5. There were not enough uses for the DS. We only really used DS features, what, a handful of times?

6. Not enough perceivey-ness. Only used about 6 times.

7. Maya and Pearl basically dissappeared off the face of the earth in a matter of a month or two, with absolutely no explanation. I hate cliffhangers.

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Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title
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hbdragon88 wrote:
Maybe this is the reason why I found Apollo Justice to be so bland: there isn't enough strife, enough set up, enough awesome confrontations. The best Ema gets to do is impersonate Kristoph and allow Apollo to find traces of atroquinine poisoning to validate his scenario of how Drew was poisoned. And while I liked that, that was it.

1-3 alone illustrates this well: Gumshoe rescuing you from the mafia boys makes Vasquez that much more evil and Gumshoe that much more of a hero. You know it has to be her at that point and she almost tried to erase you, making it even sweeter when you bash her down during court (as well as Edgeworth coming to the rescue by forcing her to testify and pointing out a contradiction).

Also, in 1-2, White punches you, and in 1-4, Von Karma shocks you and steals nearly all of the evidence to DL-6. In 1-5, Gant fires Gumshoe and even takes Ema away ("Come to my office, Ema.") to raise the tension.

But IIRC (and I'm using this as my stalwart defense), nothing like that is presented in AJ. You don't get to confront Alita about the chart records until during the trial. Kristoph has unclear motivation until the events of 4-4 transpire. Daryan...he's a strange villain, to be sure, with very limited interaction with him.


I agree with all of this. There were some pretty minor examples of tension, (Really the only times I actually felt tense somewhat was when you find out that Wocky could die practically any day now, and when Vera was poisoned.) but even those moments don't stack up to all the pieces in the original PW. I personally felt that the whole game had a "rushed" feel to it, and would have been much better if they had spent at least 6 more months.

hbdragon88 wrote:
And Kristoph x2 - well, as others have stated, they didn't feel like they did enough to cause him to break down. Count me as one of those who thought, "Wait, is that all?"


One again, I concur. The last trial at least, really seemed more like "Klavier Gavin VS. Kristoph Gavin" instead of "Apollo Justice VS. Kristoph Gavin". I mean, there were 3 presents, 1 percieve... that's it. It felt like watching a movie, and pressing a couple buttons every now and then.
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Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title
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Spoiler: 4-4
The only thing that ticked me off was the whole Jurist System thing. I just felt a bit cheated. I mean let's face it, unless you WANTED the bad ending you were always going to vote "Not Guilty". It just didn't feel like you deserved it...


Other then that I LOVED it a lot!
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Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title
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I hated Gavin's personallity.

All the Phoenix Wright prosecutors were evil Sonofabitches that made you want to KILL THEM, and then in the last case you found out that there was more to them than you thought.

Klavier was too nice.
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Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title

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ProsecutionRests wrote:
I agree with all of this. There were some pretty minor examples of tension, (Really the only times I actually felt tense somewhat was when you find out that Wocky could die practically any day now, and when Vera was poisoned.) but even those moments don't stack up to all the pieces in the original PW. I personally felt that the whole game had a "rushed" feel to it, and would have been much better if they had spent at least 6 more months.


They ruined Vera, though. Who thought it was a good idea to show her collapsing in the intro video? They should have removed it so that it was REALLY TENSE, like OMG, when she collapsed on the stand.
Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title

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To be honest the only thing that got me was that we never got to see on screen interaction between Phoenix and Ema throughout the entire game. I mean even if it would have been one time it would have been cool to see them interact on screen.
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Tomoshibi Amatsu wrote:
To be honest the only thing that got me was that we never got to see on screen interaction between Phoenix and Ema throughout the entire game. I mean even if it would have been one time it would have been cool to see them interact on screen.

I totally agree with you here, and not just because I like them as a couple. The fact that Ema was one of the 'surviving' characters from the past 3 games...it would have been interesting to see Phoenix interact with her, just to keep that tie to the past.
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Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title
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xfma_addictx wrote:
Spoiler: Phoenix's Flashback
And I HATED that Phoenix, as a hobo, was such an ASS, and that in his flashback, he's just SO COCKY. Phoenix never underestimates the power of a prosecutor. He always treads lightly when it comes to someone new. Heck, he even feared Godot, who had NO track record as a prosecutor!

This. Holy hell.

Yano what, just put in the fact Hobonix exists at all.

Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title

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Hmm...

Spoiler: AJ
First, the Jurist System.As mentioned before, there was no moment where you finally snare the villian. You get to the point where all hope seems lost, and instead of an amazing recovery, Klavier simply says, "We have a jury, roffle." Then the breakdown happened, and it seemed rather premature.

And Kristophe in general. When you visit him in his cell, the tension is amazingly thick. He's cool, urbane, and collected. He deals with you with a level of maturity and hidden loathing which is rare in AA. Not even Dahlia gave off that vibe of extreme hate, but prefectly and spotlessly covered. And then he gave those black psych-locks, which makes it even better. What happens in court? Well, there is NO family tension between Klavier and Kristophe, only "You're a bad guy, I don't like you." I don't care HOW commited to the truth you are, when your brother is at the stand, there has to be some conflict of interest. Then is the two second finalie, and we get an unearned breakdown. The sad part was, I sort of agreed with him that too much emotion was brought into the affair.

And where was Max? The Grammryes were presented as the be-all, end-all of magic, and yet they still lost the Grand Prix to Max Galactica. They said they were the golden age, but I think Max should've been at least aluded to.

Finally, the percieve system, while interesting, had some amazingly odd dialouge.

:odoroki: I saw you twirl your ring, dammit! You twiched! Twiched! Admit it, you're the murderer!
:udgy: My, she did twirl her ring, didn't she? That must mean something deep an mysterious, and I'll let it into court!
:minas: You caught me. I guess I'll reveal more info, because I DID move that ring...

Seriously, if I was on the stand, I wouldn't let that fly at all.
Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title
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Didn't really pissed me off very much, but still annoyed me.

Spoiler: 4-2 or probably most of the AJ game
Trucy was a bit too helpful, especially in trials. Unlike Maya, Mia or Diego... she actually gave away obvious hints. Sure I guess the hints can be helpful, there's some moments where my mind becomes a clueless blank. But I still just find her too helpful sometimes. I hope they 'fix' that in GS5.

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Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title
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Anuer wrote:
Hmm...

Spoiler: AJ
First, the Jurist System.As mentioned before, there was no moment where you finally snare the villian. You get to the point where all hope seems lost, and instead of an amazing recovery, Klavier simply says, "We have a jury, roffle." Then the breakdown happened, and it seemed rather premature.

And Kristophe in general. When you visit him in his cell, the tension is amazingly thick. He's cool, urbane, and collected. He deals with you with a level of maturity and hidden loathing which is rare in AA. Not even Dahlia gave off that vibe of extreme hate, but prefectly and spotlessly covered. And then he gave those black psych-locks, which makes it even better. What happens in court? Well, there is NO family tension between Klavier and Kristophe, only "You're a bad guy, I don't like you." I don't care HOW commited to the truth you are, when your brother is at the stand, there has to be some conflict of interest. Then is the two second finalie, and we get an unearned breakdown. The sad part was, I sort of agreed with him that too much emotion was brought into the affair.

Finally, the percieve system, while interesting, had some amazingly odd dialouge.

:odoroki: I saw you twirl your ring, dammit! You twiched! Twiched! Admit it, you're the murderer!
:udgy: My, she did twirl her ring, didn't she? That must mean something deep an mysterious, and I'll let it into court!
:minas: You caught me. I guess I'll reveal more info, because I DID move that ring...

Seriously, if I was on the stand, I wouldn't let that fly at all.


By accident, I found my own tibbit of dialouge:
Spoiler: AJ-4
This happens if you mess up percieving Spark
:odoroki: : YOU'RE HIDING SOMETHING!
Brushell: AAHAHAHHAHHHZOMGWTFASJFJIWJ!
:odoroki: : Sorry, my mistake...
Brushell: Don't scare me like that!

I will take over Court-Records with my army of Klavier fanboys!
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Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title

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This was the first AA game where you were unable to visit the criminal affairs department. I miss that. Hearing how the force was responding to the various crimes gave the cases a sense of scale. Plus, it was always entertaining to examine the slacking detectives and see what they were up to.
Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title

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Alot of people are saying Khritoph killed Zak because of the blow to his ego when if i remember he killed him becasue he was scared that he would let it on about Khristoph and the forgery i mean Zak knew phoniex had the fake page and also if i remember khristoph wanted to get rid of everyone invovled in the forgery including zak so his motive for killing him was to slience him not becasue he hurt his ego
OBJECTION " i objection this is objectionable"

OBJECTION " i object to the witnesses talkitiveness"
Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title
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Ajerben wrote:
:eh?:

Did you even play the game? Gumshoe returns in the fourth case.

Aside from the first case, I wasn't really taken aback by the awesomeness. Plus, final case was a bit lackluster save for the Mason System and Kristoph's breakdown. There were so many loose ends that have to be tied up somehow, lest everyone here play the Ace Attorney games just for the sake of playing them. 'Tis a sad thought to be sure.
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Last edited by Mr. Bear Jew on Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title
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Ashy wrote:
1.
:hobohodo: "Ah, I've got another game! It's time for me to shine!"

:odoroki: "*Looks at the title of the game.* Actually, it's my game. C'mon, it's my turn now."

:hobohodo: "Excuse me? Uhm, who's the star of the series? Me. I'm the best, you suck, it's my game. F*** off, evidence monkey."

:odoroki: "..."
Fixed.

And that brings me to what annoyed me; it felt like I was a monkey pressing buttons. Normally I like to work out the entire line of reasoning before I start presenting evidence, and so it felt like Hobohodo and Klavier were trying to steal my thunder for the whole game.
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Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title
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It's the same thing that bugged me in the original three, T&T especially:

Spoiler: On Heritage
AAAAAAUGH, WHY DON'T WE FIND OUT WHO APOLLO'S FATHER IS?! This facinates me. o_o The same way Maya's father does. o_o

Other things:
Spoiler: On Bracelets
A shrinking metal ore...? I've heard of stuff like that, but I can't imagine it would be so useful as to go from the size of a grown woman's wrist down to a baby's...

Back to Heritage:
Spoiler: Once again, family problems
Why is it that if Apollo's father died-- he did die, right? In a stage "accident" or something-- why didn't his mother take him with her? :sadshoe: Unless the father's family decided to keep Apollo. And then abandon him? He was an orphan, right?


My theory regarding the last one is TRAGIC PLANE ACCIDENT, resulting in the pilot episode of LOST.
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Spoiler: Just in case...? AJ
The fact that Phoenix lost his badge. Don't get me wrong, I love Apollo and totally agree that we needed a new main character, but after 3-5, Mia's all "You're the best lawyer ever!" then a few months later BANG! No Badge! It's a bit disappointing.

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Sheepshifter wrote:
I hated Gavin's personallity.

All the Phoenix Wright prosecutors were evil Sonofabitches that made you want to KILL THEM, and then in the last case you found out that there was more to them than you thought.

Klavier was too nice.

And too pretty and cliched. I agree fully!!
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Spoiler: Klavier and 4-4
I really don't get why people hate Klavier. I mean why do we need another "evil" prosecutor? I thought Klavier was a new change of pace and I liked the fact that unlike his predecessors Klavier decided to dump the "angst scene" as he called it when the time came because he was tired of it. Klavier may live for the future instead of the past, but that makes him far more unique in a way than any of the previous prosecutors save Edgeworth.

I also liked the jurist system idea as well. I mean lets face it; it was the only way to get Kristoph and I didn't find the breakdown premature at all. It was satisfying to make Kristoph think he won only for Klavier and Apollo to dump the truth right in his lap especially that it was Phoenix Wright who set the whole thing up. It just smelled of sweet victory considering how Kristoph believed he could beat them through a lack of evidence. Instead Phoenix, Apollo, and Klavier effectively smashed his plan to pieces, and there was nowhere left for Kristoph to run.

Also I think Phoenix was his same old self throughout the game. Though I agree that it sucks that he suddenly loses his badge two months after Mia says he's the best example of a defense attorney. It almost makes the ending of T&T bittersweet especially since everyone turned against him and called him a crooked attorney without proof. I mean after all the work Phoenix has done and he's done it all legally you would think anyone in their right mind would think twice about accusing Phoenix of being crooked.
Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title

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AceDetective wrote:
Spoiler: Just in case...? AJ
The fact that Phoenix lost his badge. Don't get me wrong, I love Apollo and totally agree that we needed a new main character, but after 3-5, Mia's all "You're the best lawyer ever!" then a few months later BANG! No Badge! It's a bit disappointing.


Spoiler: Spoilers for AJ and 3-5
I agree. At the end of 3-5, you get the immortal 'you're living on...through him!?' And two months later, 'not anymore!' It's really saddening.
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Mmmf....I still feel/felt dis-satisfied with the ending.
I NEED MOAR! D:
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The fact that they didnt tell us how payne magically got hair like that :payne:
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The cases just seemed....short. It went by too quickly, and it wasn't as epic as the other games. Plus, no older :eh?: .
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What pissed me off in Apollo Justice (Major Spoilers)Topic%20Title
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OK, well...
Spoiler: Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney -Turnabout Succession-
Kristoph Gavin is so competitive! He wanted to be chosen as Shadi Enigmar/Smith's attorney, but he wasn't chosen because he lost to a poker game. So Phoenix Wright was chosen, because he beaten him. That's the reason why he framed Phoenix for presenting forged evidence and killed Shadi Enigmar/Smith.

Apollo Prejudice: Ace Attorney is finally complete!
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=1743834175956432442&hl=en-GB
Click on the link to view and somebody please put this on YouTube!
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The flash backs REALLY annoyed me. I do not suffer from short term memory loss, I don't need to be reminded of something that happened 1 second ago.

And when Lamiroir didn't tell Apollo and Trucy that she is their mother and they are therefore brother and sister, that pissed me off. If I couldn't remember anything, and then suddenly, I was told I had two awesome kids, I'd wanna run up and hug them and take them to IHOP or something. Psh. She was just like, "oh. i have kids. i am going to write a song. kthxbi."

I love the way that Klavier did his objections, but the air guitar was really corny.

I cannot stand Apollo's voice, especially when he says "GOTCHA!" He sounds like he's from the south, a little.

I thought that Phoenix was kinda rude. I mean, I expected him to be more mature in this game, but being older than someone else doesn't warrant that person the right to be a jerk.
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The Final Case, The Phoenix overshadowing Apollo, and mainly WHY I CAN'T PRESENT PROFILES?! :(
It's really fun for me from the past games and i love trivial things like this..
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muffinman wrote:
The cases just seemed....short. It went by too quickly, and it wasn't as epic as the other games. Plus, no older :eh?: .

I know what you mean,i cleared 2-4 so easily,and the twist really didnt suprise me :edgeworth: :kikzou:
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Klavier... well I felt he was an interesting change, to not make him all despicable like the other prosecutors so far. It can show that really the people on that side are, quite often, just doing their job in the same manner as the defence. Now would we think differently of Apollo if for example in GS5 he ends up successfully defending someone who is actually guilty (and not go the 2-4 route of eventually get the defendant proven guilty)?

And I also agree on Phoenix trying to overshadow Apollo a bit, and the lack of any real mention of Maya and Pearl... actually the one thing that ticked me off, and maybe it will happen in GS5 anyhow, but I guess I was hoping it would end on it was...

Spoiler:
Phoenix not telling Trucy and Apollo they were related or that Lamiroir was their mother. Then again I somewhat expected it, it's what games often do!


Aside from that... bring back the psyche locks in GS5!
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That such a minor character like lamoir tied everyone together.
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WockyFan wrote:
muffinman wrote:
The cases just seemed....short. It went by too quickly, and it wasn't as epic as the other games. Plus, no older :eh?: .

I know what you mean,i cleared 2-4 so easily,and the twist really didnt suprise me :edgeworth: :kikzou:


Yeah, we need another long, incredibly epic case like 1-5.

That and there were only two prosecutors. Even in the first AA there were three.
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Tomoshibi Amatsu wrote:
Spoiler: Klavier and 4-4
I really don't get why people hate Klavier. I mean why do we need another "evil" prosecutor? I thought Klavier was a new change of pace and I liked the fact that unlike his predecessors Klavier decided to dump the "angst scene" as he called it when the time came because he was tired of it. Klavier may live for the future instead of the past, but that makes him far more unique in a way than any of the previous prosecutors save Edgeworth.

I also liked the jurist system idea as well. I mean lets face it; it was the only way to get Kristoph and I didn't find the breakdown premature at all. It was satisfying to make Kristoph think he won only for Klavier and Apollo to dump the truth right in his lap especially that it was Phoenix Wright who set the whole thing up. It just smelled of sweet victory considering how Kristoph believed he could beat them through a lack of evidence. Instead Phoenix, Apollo, and Klavier effectively smashed his plan to pieces, and there was nowhere left for Kristoph to run.

Also I think Phoenix was his same old self throughout the game. Though I agree that it sucks that he suddenly loses his badge two months after Mia says he's the best example of a defense attorney. It almost makes the ending of T&T bittersweet especially since everyone turned against him and called him a crooked attorney without proof. I mean after all the work Phoenix has done and he's done it all legally you would think anyone in their right mind would think twice about accusing Phoenix of being crooked.


Spoiler: All PW games
It makes the courtroom trials boring and not very tension filled when the prosecutor isn't on you. Despite how much of an asshole Manfred was it was just that much cooler when it got to turnabout and you proved that he did it. That was just awesome. Klavier never gets that - he isn't a defendant like Edgeworth, you don't play as him, and he isn't the murderer like Godot or Manfred was.

The jurist system was a contrived gimmick that has the worst ending ever - HUNG JURY, SHE DIES, WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU? People also can't fanthom why they'd hand the reins for a new trial system to a disbarred attorney. Besides which, Kristoph isn't on trial and Vera is near death without any precedent for coming back from near-fatal poisoning, so why does it matter if the jury votes to free her? I didn't feel like he went crazy for a good enough reason.

Phoenix is nowhere near his original self. He FORGES EVIDENCE during 4-1, for god's sake. He'd never do that when he was a lawyer. Phoenix never had to forge evidence before and even when he was down to nothing he was gong to accept defeat, at least until Mia tells him how to do the turnabout. Some may example 3-3 as when he does forge, but there's a difference - Tigre's fingerprints were on the bottle, whereas there was no proof that Kristoph had taken the card. Sure, it's a likely possibility, but it's just that - circumstanial reasoning.
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hbdragon88 wrote:

Spoiler: All PW games
It makes the courtroom trials boring and not very tension filled when the prosecutor isn't on you. Despite how much of an asshole Manfred was it was just that much cooler when it got to turnabout and you proved that he did it. That was just awesome. Klavier never gets that - he isn't a defendant like Edgeworth, you don't play as him, and he isn't the murderer like Godot or Manfred was.

The jurist system was a contrived gimmick that has the worst ending ever - HUNG JURY, SHE DIES, WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU? People also can't fanthom why they'd hand the reins for a new trial system to a disbarred attorney. Besides which, Kristoph isn't on trial and Vera is near death without any precedent for coming back from near-fatal poisoning, so why does it matter if the jury votes to free her? I didn't feel like he went crazy for a good enough reason.

Phoenix is nowhere near his original self. He FORGES EVIDENCE during 4-1, for god's sake. He'd never do that when he was a lawyer. Phoenix never had to forge evidence before and even when he was down to nothing he was gong to accept defeat, at least until Mia tells him how to do the turnabout. Some may example 3-3 as when he does forge, but there's a difference - Tigre's fingerprints were on the bottle, whereas there was no proof that Kristoph had taken the card. Sure, it's a likely possibility, but it's just that - circumstanial reasoning.


Spoiler:
I thought it was very tension filled. I don't need Klavier to be as evil as Manfred to get tension out of it. There were many times Klavier had Apollo on the ropes despite the times he helped him out, and to be honest he helped out Apollo very rarely. Most of the help he gave was coincidental anyways. Besides I liked Klaviers cool and teasing attitude. I really wouldn't want him to be a prick like Godot was.

Also how is the hung jury ending any different than "LAWLZ TEH MIRACLE DIDN'T HAPPEN!!!11" and the trial did matter because it was to save Vera's life and free her from her past crimes as well as prove Phoenix's innocence in regards to the forging. If there was a hung jury and Vera died Phoenix wouldn't HAVE another chance to expose Kristoph as the true criminal behind everything that happened in 4-4 and the case seven years ago. Kristoph would have won and gotten away scott free. Much like Engarde would if the miracle didn't happen.

Phoenix isn't even an attorney anymore so it doesn't matter if he forges evidence at that point. Besides as others have said Phoenix probably felt he had no othher way of proving Kristoph's guilt. Plus Phoenix was sure Kristoph took the card since he knew Kristoph was the true killer. Phoenix is still his old self but I see that people like to easily dismiss that.
Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title
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I agree with almost everything that have been mentioned so far, although I'd like to add I didn't like the atmosphere at all, the new characters were copies of the older characters and the way Phoenix lost his badge was simply ludicrous.
When I played throughout the game I didn't take the name "Apollo Justice" seriously, I kinda felt like in MGS2 when I played with raiden instead of Snake. I saw Apollo as another point of view to understand Phoenix, and actually I must admit that I can't stand Apollo.
The first case was nice only because it had a twist in it, it had Payne and Phoenix said Objection again.
The second case sucked in my opinion, the characters were lame and wocky was humiliating. Didn't like anything from that one.
The third case was like 3-3, nothing unusual but the way things didn't make sense.
The fourth case was interesting, at least for me. I wanted to know why Phoenix lost his badge. Of course it wasn't as satsfying and it had it's cons but it was the best case in the game.
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Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title

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hbdragon88 wrote:
Spoiler: All PW games
]Phoenix is nowhere near his original self. He FORGES EVIDENCE during 4-1, for god's sake. He'd never do that when he was a lawyer. Phoenix never had to forge evidence before and even when he was down to nothing he was gong to accept defeat, at least until Mia tells him how to do the turnabout. Some may example 3-3 as when he does forge, but there's a difference - Tigre's fingerprints were on the bottle, whereas there was no proof that Kristoph had taken the card. Sure, it's a likely possibility, but it's just that - circumstanial reasoning.


Spoiler: 4-1
That certainly isn't the first time Phoenix has stretched things to find the truth. At the start of that case there were only two possibilities for whom the murderer could be and the fun part is that the only two possibilities were innocent. That card had existed and would have been at the scene if Kristoph not taken it. It is never used as decisive evidence, but is instead used to counter Kristoph's lies. It did not point to him by itself. It was incriminating because Kristoph knew stuff that he shouldn't have known and then had to lie his way out of it. He knew that information because he was the killer and considering the situation he could only have known that information if he was the killer. As for whether or not Kristoph had taken the card, think it through. That whole mess with Olga getting hit centered around those five aces coming up (which leads to him being searched for the planted card). Phoenix calls the cops and walks back into the room. Looking at the table he notices that the wrong card is on the table. Considering what had just happened, I would imagine that card was burned in his brain and it's not surprising that he would notice such an obvious contradiction. After that it was just a matter of deduction (similar to what often happens in PW/AJ cases). There were only two entrances to the basement and Phoenix was standing by one of them while he called the cops. The real killer could only have come through that hidden entrance (meaning that the killer had to be familiar with the place, like Kristoph was since he ate there with Phoenix often, and Kristoph had already incriminated himself on the phone by mentioning the victim's bald head) and if you add in the missing card, it becomes pretty clear what happened. There was no chance that the real killer hadn't taken the card because it couldn't simply have disappeared from the crime scene on it's own. Evidence doesn't just disintegrate, so since it was gone, it had to have been taken by the killer. And as I said, the card was only a threat in the first place because of the fact that Kristoph knew stuff that he shouldn't have (the victim's baldness and the blue cards). I honestly don't see how Phoenix has changed. He was always willing to go to great lengths for the truth and to protect people.

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Last edited by Mia_Fey on Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title
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My turn~

Spoiler:
Didn't like Klavier as a prosecutor. Loved him as character, but the entire time I felt like he would have made a better witness than a prosecutor. Sorry, but I just didn't buy the whole "Prosecutor by day, POPULAR ROCK STAR BY NIGHT!!" thing. It kinda ruined his credibility as a attorney for me.

Four cases? C'mon, there was totally room for five.

Trucy: "I'm not telling you the secret to the magic trick even though it will totally help you prove your client not guilty and prevent him from being put to death for a murder he didn't commit!" OMG WUT.

Spark Brushel. Arrrgh worse than Oldbag.... D=

I didn't feel like the game had any replay value. Despite the fact that I know what happens, I could play PW: AA, JFA and T&T multiple times. I played AJ once... and probably won't play it again. There was something missing that the PW trilogy had. Wish I could put my finger on it.

Despite all this, it wasn't an awful game. Just... not one of my favorites.

=D
Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title

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Carmelita wrote:
My turn~

Spoiler:
Didn't like Klavier as a prosecutor. Loved him as character, but the entire time I felt like he would have made a better witness than a prosecutor. Sorry, but I just didn't buy the whole "Prosecutor by day, POPULAR ROCK STAR BY NIGHT!!" thing. It kinda ruined his credibility as a attorney for me.

Four cases? C'mon, there was totally room for five.

Trucy: "I'm not telling you the secret to the magic trick even though it will totally help you prove your client not guilty and prevent him from being put to death for a murder he didn't commit!" OMG WUT.

Spark Brushel. Arrrgh worse than Oldbag.... D=

I didn't feel like the game had any replay value. Despite the fact that I know what happens, I could play PW: AA, JFA and T&T multiple times. I played AJ once... and probably won't play it again. There was something missing that the PW trilogy had. Wish I could put my finger on it.

Despite all this, it wasn't an awful game. Just... not one of my favorites.



Spoiler:
I have to admit that while I'm not a fan of the ranters I found Stickler more annoying than Brushel though Brushel was still very annoying.

As for Klavier all I can say is that i feel that he was a nice change of pace. Far more unique than every other prosecutor in the series who always bears a grudge towards Phoenix for whatever reason.
Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title

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Carmelita wrote:
My turn~

Spoiler:
Trucy: "I'm not telling you the secret to the magic trick even though it will totally help you prove your client not guilty and prevent him from being put to death for a murder he didn't commit!" OMG WUT.


Spoiler: 4-3
I'm not convinced that Trucy knew how the trick was done honestly. She only claims to have figured it out once during a cross-examination (I'm assuming the point you're talking about is uncovering how Larimoir was able to move so quickly. I think that's the only time Trucy claims to know anything), but for the rest of the case before that she was at a loss. Taking her personality into account, I wouldn't be surprised to find that she was trying to show off some of her great magician skills by claiming to know how it was done. She even says something like "I've already figured it out. I'm a magician after all." More then that, after Apollo figures out what happens, Trucy makes a guess as to how the double is still singing on stage and was wrong (and by that point has no trouble chiming in to help even though she would revealing a part of the trick). Now it could just be that was all she didn't know, but honestly I think she was just bluffing as her father is so fond of doing. To each their own though. :)

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Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title

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Tomoshibi Amatsu wrote:
Spoiler:
I thought it was very tension filled. I don't need Klavier to be as evil as Manfred to get tension out of it. There were many times Klavier had Apollo on the ropes despite the times he helped him out, and to be honest he helped out Apollo very rarely. Most of the help he gave was coincidental anyways. Besides I liked Klaviers cool and teasing attitude. I really wouldn't want him to be a prick like Godot was.

Also how is the hung jury ending any different than "LAWLZ TEH MIRACLE DIDN'T HAPPEN!!!11" and the trial did matter because it was to save Vera's life and free her from her past crimes as well as prove Phoenix's innocence in regards to the forging. If there was a hung jury and Vera died Phoenix wouldn't HAVE another chance to expose Kristoph as the true criminal behind everything that happened in 4-4 and the case seven years ago. Kristoph would have won and gotten away scott free. Much like Engarde would if the miracle didn't happen.

Phoenix isn't even an attorney anymore so it doesn't matter if he forges evidence at that point. Besides as others have said Phoenix probably felt he had no othher way of proving Kristoph's guilt. Plus Phoenix was sure Kristoph took the card since he knew Kristoph was the true killer. Phoenix is still his old self but I see that people like to easily dismiss that.


Spoiler:
Maybe I need to replay the cases, but at no point during my initial playthrough did I feel pressed into a corner with Klavier down my neck and worried that my next move was GAME OVER. And it wasn't, really - there isn't a single instant death penatly for the entire game, the best one being 80% for the final piece of evidence gathering.

How is it different? Because Phoenix and Maya have been together for a very, very long time and you really see how much they get along and like each other, whereas Vera is just this shy, extremely closeted girl who speaks sparsely and conveys emotions through drawings. Also, the case wasn't won yet at all - Engarde was going to get off free if you didn't pick the right person. Here it was already won - or was it? I assumed that his breakdown was the second confession. If it was already won, the game was going to throw you a super bad ending if you so happened to choose guilty. You make it sound like Kristoph was going to go on trial again afterwards - do you have any proof of that?

So it doesn't matter, because he's no longer a lawyer? That's the most pathetic excuse ever. I'd bring up that he put Apollo's career in danger but Mia_Fey would point out that he purposefully did things to make sure the blame would come onto him. Forging evidence is wrong in all respects. At least, it is to me. The ends do not justify the means. Even more so is that Wright even thinks about taking the bar exam again at the end even though what he did was morally reprensible.


Mia_Fey wrote:
Spoiler: 4-1
That certainly isn't the first time Phoenix has stretched things to find the truth.

[snip]

And as I said, the card was only a threat in the first place because of the fact that Kristoph knew stuff that he shouldn't have (the victim's baldness and the blue cards). I honestly don't see how Phoenix has changed. He was always willing to go to great lengths for the truth and to protect people.


Spoiler: All PW games
Apparently we're just too used to him already having the evidence that he needs to successfully implicate whoever the real murderer was, usually through the words of the murderer (Godot is the only thing that comes to mind with his description of Misty Fey), the lone exception probably being 3-3, when he lies about the bottle, and 1-5, when he takes the evidence from the safe. The other times, it's Mia that salvages the trial (such as 3-2, or the picture presenting in 2-2). So, when we come to the time of 4-1, and you have the situation that is you so clearly presented out, on the surface, Phoenix's recreation of the bloody ace looks far worse than the safe stealing in 1-5 or the green bottle incident in 3-3.
Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title

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hbdragon88 wrote:

Spoiler:
Maybe I need to replay the cases, but at no point during my initial playthrough did I feel pressed into a corner with Klavier down my neck and worried that my next move was GAME OVER. And it wasn't, really - there isn't a single instant death penatly for the entire game, the best one being 80% for the final piece of evidence gathering.

How is it different? Because Phoenix and Maya have been together for a very, very long time and you really see how much they get along and like each other, whereas Vera is just this shy, extremely closeted girl who speaks sparsely and conveys emotions through drawings. Also, the case wasn't won yet at all - Engarde was going to get off free if you didn't pick the right person. Here it was already won - or was it? I assumed that his breakdown was the second confession. If it was already won, the game was going to throw you a super bad ending if you so happened to choose guilty. You make it sound like Kristoph was going to go on trial again afterwards - do you have any proof of that?

So it doesn't matter, because he's no longer a lawyer? That's the most pathetic excuse ever. I'd bring up that he put Apollo's career in danger but Mia_Fey would point out that he purposefully did things to make sure the blame would come onto him. Forging evidence is wrong in all respects. At least, it is to me. The ends do not justify the means. Even more so is that Wright even thinks about taking the bar exam again at the end even though what he did was morally reprensible.

Spoiler:
Outside of 3-5 when was there ever an instant GAME OVER feel? 4-4 was more like 2-4 in the fact that you could choose whether or not the miracle happened. That's all there is to it. Heck even in 3-5 you weren't pressed into a corner because you already knew how to prove Godot did it. There wasn't even any point to the ultimate penalty unless you intentionally WANTED a game over.

Do you have any proof that he wasn't? The Jury voted innocent based on that someone else killed Drew Misham and even without the decisive evidence it was still painfully clear that it was Kristoph Gavin. In 2-4 the Judge even states that he feels Engarde is guilty but without the proof he'd have no choice but to proclaim him innocent, and really Phoenix didn't win that through using evidence. He won it by tricking dekiller into breaking the contract with Engarde. Plus if we look at Kristoph's reactions when he breaks down at the end of 4-4 and his maniacal laughter after the verdict I think it's pretty clear that he's going to confess to everything since all his plans were foiled. Apollo and Klavier were able to finger Kristoph single handedly, Very was still alive, and it was Phoenix who delivered the final blow with the verdict.

Oh and lets not forget that Vera could easily identify Kristoph as the client since she lived.

Lets face it. In the bad ending there's a hung jury and the last possible person related to the case outside of Phoenix and Klavier is dead thanks to Kristoph. Phoenix wouldn't have another chance to close the case from seven years ago and get his final revenge on Kristoph. Saving Vera and proclaiming her innocent was the only way to finish things once and for all.

Well yeah it doesn't matter. What's the judge gonna do to him? He can't exactly take his badge away again, and Apollo's career wouldn't be in jeopardy if Phoenix took the hit. Also lets face it Phoenix did that only once and Kristoph was deserving of it. How ironic that the forger would fall due to falsified evidence. Besides Phoenix made Apollo present it moreso to expose Kristoph for the liar he was not convict him.
Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title

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hbdragon88 wrote:
Spoiler: All PW games
Apparently we're just too used to him already having the evidence that he needs to successfully implicate whoever the real murderer was, usually through the words of the murderer (Godot is the only thing that comes to mind with his description of Misty Fey), the lone exception probably being 3-3, when he lies about the bottle, and 1-5, when he takes the evidence from the safe. The other times, it's Mia that salvages the trial (such as 3-2, or the picture presenting in 2-2). So, when we come to the time of 4-1, and you have the situation that is you so clearly presented out, on the surface, Phoenix's recreation of the bloody ace looks far worse than the safe stealing in 1-5 or the green bottle incident in 3-3.


Spoiler: 4-1
It may look worse on the surface (although I honestly don't think so, but that is my own opinion and has no bearing on this conversation), but that doesn't change that it was essentially on the same level as those other times Phoenix stretched things to find the truth. The point is that Phoenix really hasn't changed. The only changes are minor ones that you would expect to see after seven years particularly with what he had been through.

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Last edited by Mia_Fey on Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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