The Ace Attorney's Magical Daughter
Gender: Female
Location: Austria
Rank: Prosecutor
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:16 pm
Posts: 817
...
...icer, I think I finally figured out why we keep butting heads. What that... "quality" is that your posts have to it that keeps pushing me over the edge and just really, really frustrates me. ^^;
It's not what you say - seriously, even if I get very defensive over my own opinions when someone tries to talk me out of them, I still love hearing other people's interpretations and opinions, since I think it's a great way of furthering my own understanding of something and expand on my own interpretations - it's *how* you say it. You have a... tendency to sort of paint your opinions and interpretations as "facts". That's something that just causes me to itch and get a bit angry. I am a bit of a hypocrite though, because I, myself, am not immune to using such arguementative techniques, as my Bullshit-Post earlier demonstrated so nicely. However, the thing is... You do it a lot, I think it'd not be wrong to say you do it a lot more than me. You only rarely insert little phrases like "This is just my personal interpretation, but..." or "I personally think, that...", you tend to say things that in the end mean nothing more than
"Your interpretation is nice but mine is obviously more true" and when you end up agreeing with something your dialouge partner says, you only rarely say "Yes, this is true", but are more likely to dodge that specific point from then on, only mentioning for a bit that you might agree with it. It's not just when you discuss things with me. I've been reading your posts ever since I first came into the fandom and I'm not the only person you've had heated discussions with, and it's just really a pity, because if you'd discuss more flexibly, it'd be surely a lot more fun discussing things with you, because a lot of your interpretations are very interesting and even very, very smart. It's just that the way you write them down give your posts a pretentious air... even more than mine. ^^; And that's saying something, because I have horrible temper and self-control and even when I don't mean to come off as painting myself "superior", I still do it a lot. Probably even right now, even if I really don't mean to. I know my posts tend to sound very pretentious, but I'm trying to work on tonning that down. I think we both need to work on it... We just clash horribly for this very reason, and the more defensive you get, the more defensive I get. It's kind of a vicious cycle
I'm not trying to make myself look better than you here, I just found it necessary to say this before I go on, in order to stop this from derailing the discussion any further. So, long story short, I am totally OK with you have different interpretations and I'd never ask you to give up on them! The only thing that really, really makes my blood boil is the way you formulate them, because it makes me feel like you were forcing me (and everyone else, for that matter), to give up on our believe in our own interpretations and accept yours as a lot more valid, which just is a very bad way of discussing a matter with someone who has an opposing opinion. I try to insert tons of disclaimers in the vain of "This is what I believe, but not what you have to believe" into my theories nowadays for a reason, you know. ^^; It doesn't necessarily improve my discussing style a lot, but at least makes me sound less aggresive (to an extent), which makes it easier to stay calmer... Given, when I get heated I get very head in terms of pretentiousness and baseless self-validation, but that's why I don't want a reason to get heated in the first place, you know...
OK, before I move on, I want you to consider the following things:
*) GS4 is the AA game I replayed the second most times (The GS1 being the one I replayed the most.)
*) I AM an overthinker (Which I don't consider a bad thing) and have a penchant for character analysis, so, yes, I think I know the script pretty well, but yes, I also interprete a lot. I just enjoy Media a lot more when I interprete them and read inbetween the lines when I consume them.
*) My interpretation is also influenced by the fact that I am currently playing GS4 in the japanese original version, meaning a lot of what I refer to might come from how the characters are portrayed in the original and that nuance might have been lost in translation. I will try though, to keep that apart from my own interpretations, even though that *can* be hard, since Japanese is a very interpretative language, so the line can blurr.
*) I have not once in my life accepted a plot-hole as "just being a plot-hole" without trying to solve it.
Aaaaaand, I think the last point is where we have our great conflict point.
You see, I was never trying to "prove" anything with this theory. There's nothing that CAN be proven. This is not court, we cannot crossexamine the GS dev staff and we have no tangible evidence. That was never the point.
I wanted to give a *possibility*.
The problem is, you keep arguing like I, in fact, had been trying to *prove* my theory, rather than just giving an interpretation of the situation. Therefore, a lot of your arguementation boils down to "You thought about this too much; it's just a plothole, there's no need to think about it."
Of course it is a plothole, but that is the point! I am trying to find possible ways of how that plothole could be solved in-Universe and to find explanations as to why that plothole is there in first place.
That's why you running "It's just plotholes, don't think about it." arguement drove me up the wall all the time, you know? Because the plothole is the very reason I wrote this. Of course, I got defensive at times and tried to prove the possibility in a way that made it look like I wanted to prove the theory itself, but that's just because I'm a bit short-tempered.
What I, however, don't agree with is your "The writers didn't care" attitude. Even if Takumi had Co-Writers for GS4 (The japanese manual lists some, which explains some things for me...), he still had the final call on the scenario. He still could have said "No, this is too OoC, we cannot do this, leave it out." Icer, you're a writer yourself, aren't you? And so am I. Don't you believe that if you create a character lovingly and build them up and then someone writes something that goes completly against your ideas of what is plausible for the character and it's going to be made Canon forever, that you'd not veto it? Everyone would veto it. That's the the assumption he'd just have left it pass doesn't sit right with me. Takumi led a blog during GS4's developement, and even if I can read out of his entries that he wasn't as enthusiastic about GS4 as he was about the first three games, he still really loved it and the characters and the story. He wouldn't just have *not cared*, you know. He's a writer, and a good one too. The idea that he'd not care about what's done to his characters is pretty unbelievable for me...
OK, moving on.
icer wrote:
I think the writers just simply didn't bother considering how tactless to Trucy this would make Phoenix look. They just decided to have the wonderful idea of foreshadowing/ironically-symbolically repeating the 'FlashBack Trial'. They didn't worry about the small detail consequences.
I'm not sure Maya-Misty is a direct parallel because for starters, if Maya could just channel the victim there'd be no game. Another argument is there's no point. Misty wasn't just ruined. The ghost 'lied' so therefore it's not even evidence.(And the matter than nothing bad really happened to Trucy and her reputation as a consequence of passing on Kristoph's evidence. Zak was going to disappear anyway, he didn't think Phoenix would get a not guilty he just intended to have him bluff long enough for him to escape after day 1.)
I just spoke about this before, but the entire first paragraph sounds a bit like you were trying to convince me this is exactly what happens, which made me already feel quite itchy when I first read it. ^^; You don't know more than me. We can both just make assumptions.
But... yeah, again, Takumi had the final call, even with the Co-Writers. I cannot see this man just going all like "Oh, staying in Character? Doesn't matter. Yeah, just throw that in!"
It's a possibility you list here, but one that is so unlikely to me, I seriously don't think I could ever honestly consider it. Sorry. ^^;
My point still stands, I think. Trucy was written as a character who "Initiates" a lot. She's barely ever passive, she has a lot of control over Nick's life and over Apollo too and she rarely ever leaves anything up to coincidence (Which fits with her Magician-Persona). The possibility that she was meant to be indicated as the forger at some point in developement is still very real. It's true that the first case was written first, however, it's also the longest first case in the main series, which is pretty notable for the game with the shortest last case. I have the suspicion that Turnabout Sucession was supposed to go back and bring the matter of the Forged Ace up again, but that entire part was never written or cut due to the time pressure. I mean, most people agree that Turnabout Sucession was a trainwreck, and for me, it just smelt of an unfinished, unfinished case. The Ace, as it is, is a giant BLAM, you know: Comes up once, makes you go WTF, never mentioned again. This is very uncharacteristical for the Ace Attorney games and Takumi's writting in general. I really, really wouldn't be surprised if it was supposed to come up again in the last case, with some surprise revelations about it. That's where this entire theory comes from...
As for the "Zak was going to disappear anyway" thing, I am willing to argue otherwise, using game quotes, but not today, since I am kinda time pressed.
And yes, maya's situation isn't an exact parallel, I said so myself. ^^; I just wanted to talk about Nick's behaviour.
Quote:
And Phoenix isn't exactly ethical with Trucy, he does let her help him cheat at poker....
Ah, that old thing. A common arguement, that people tend to name as "evidence" for Nick not caring about Trucy. ^^; ...Allow me to talk about this for a bit.
Have you ever seen the (good, if not ocassionally exegeratted) movie "Rainman"?
Long story, short, at a late point in the movie, the protagonists, two brothers, one of which is an Autistic Savant who can count cards accurately like a computer, go to Los Angeles and gamble themselves rich and stupid. Because of Raymond's talent, they win every game without fail. At the end of the trip, the owner of the casino throws them out and they are both banned from Vegas forever- however, they face no legal consequences. Why? Because what they did
was not technically illegal or even "cheating". Sure, they got themselves a VERY unfair advantage, but they didn't manipulate the game directly, they didn't manipulate the cards, didn't use mirrors to look into their opponents cards or anything like that. Their only "prop" is Raymond's brain and that's something every player has- except, only Raymond has the unfair advantage of being able to count and calculate in fragments of seconds and having the memory of an elephant. But that's just that: An advantage, not cheating. Just like a person who was born with better assets for physical developement will always have an unfair advantage in sports over people who have not and need to train harder to get to the same level.
The situation is even "milder" with Trucy and Nick, since Trucy's not even counting the cards, she's literally just reading the movements and "vibe" her father's opponent gives off. Every poker player does this to an extent, it's just that Trucy is really, really good at it. It's
not cheating, unless the game was specifically supposed to be one-on-one without any co-counceling whatsoever, in which case Trucy'd not be there in first place. In fact, the game never really states that Trucy helping Nick was even a secret. For all we know, the guests might have even been aware they were facing a team, not a single person. And again, Trucy and Nick aren't cheating, just using her natural talents. Sure, they are *unfair* talents, but that was the whole challenge, right? "Defeat the guy who obviously has an unfair advantage over you". I mean, after 7 years, everyone should have know that the guy obviously can somehow break bluffs, even if they did not know (somehow, I really can't see how nobody would have noticed that) that it was his daughter who did the bluff-breaking for him. In other words, Nick wasn't doing anything his guests didn't expect. He just played his roll as "The undefeatable Poker Player". To top it off, they weren't even playing for money, so, what the heck? If it really was a secret, the worst that could have happened if it comes out would be a headline called "Genius Poker Player actually 15 years old girl!" and if anything, Trucy'd have profitted from that, not suffered. It's an entirely different situation from Ace, which was a genuine illegal action. In fact, the only person who ever calls it "cheating", is Apollo, who, if his behaviour towards Klavier is any indication, has a personal beef against people who somehow get themselves an unfair advantage, no matter if legitimate or not, because he's just a sucker for everything being "Fair and Square". (Which is why he, unlike Nick, never really uses bluffs in his trials, if you pay close attention.)
Of course, this still doesn't get the "He was using Trucy" issue out of the way, but... May I go back to my previous arguement? That Trucy is an "initiator", and not a passive character in the least? Trucy takes control of Nick's life the moment she steps into his office, it's her who renames and redecorates it and her who calls herself the "CEO", once she's done. At one point Nick explicitely says he can't remember how he started playing Poker in that restaurant. Now, again, this is just my personal interpretation, but I also found it very likely that it was Trucy who got him into it in first place. In that case, it'd not be him using her, but her who came up with the whole "I'll just sit besides you and perceive your opponents"-system in first place. Again, Trucy always struck me as a character who would
do that. Her "oblivious, little girl" behaviour has been shown to stand in contrast to her (individual, self-initiated) actions several times.
I will never claim I can prove this, but it seems so much more likely and logical to me and is just a much more satisfying explanation than "It's just a plothole, the writers were lazy." And so far, you really haven't shown me anything that really shows the theory is impossible or even unlikely.
Quote:
Shock, shock. Why is Phoenix acting like this? More foreshadowing the Flashback. They didn't bother to care if it made Phoenix look like a jerk. It makes us go 'Why is Phoenix acting like a jerk?" (or was supposed to, I assume.)
They didn't really think about the long term consequences. ('They' aren't necessarily Takumi, as I said. They probably went 'Let's foreshadow the Flashback trial! Force characters to comply!')
Spoken about this before, it's your interpretation, and that's fine, but my interpretation is different and just as valid. Please don't use it as a way to "debunk" my theory when it's just that; your interpretation. There is just as little of a way to prove this is what happened as there is a way to prove that what I think happened happened. You can critically *argue* against my theory that way (And it'd be a really nice arguement, I'm sure), but not *debunk* it.
Quote:
I'm sorry, but it really seems to be a kind of fanon that Phoenix was obsessing over Juries for years beforehand.
OK, here I can use an actual fact to argue. I am sorry, but this isn't Fanon, it's Canon. If I weren't in Japanese class right now (what a bad student I am) I'd search the exact quote from the script, but Nick directly mentions at one point that he has been working on the Jurist system for years. Not necessarily for 7 years, but given what a huge thing it was, it were at least 3 or 4, I'd say. Aditionally, as unrealistic as the Ace Attorney games are, introducing a new iudical system takes years. So yeah, I am sorry, but this is the one spot where you got the facts wrong. ^^; I should get to the spot where he says it in the Japanese Version soon... I'll take a screenshoot for you, if you want.
Quote:
(4-3 the 'secret mission' we assume is to do with the juries, but it's not confirmed.)
It is confirmed. There was a dialouge which went pretty much:
Nick: Jury trials.
Trucy: Ah, your secret mission!
Nick: Exactly.
Again, I'd search the exact quote, but... me is a bad girl who posts in class... on her tiny notebook which laggs and dies if I open more than one tab at a time... >_>
Quote:
(Kokone of course 'didn't exist' for purposes of GS4, so deciding Phoenix was 'thinking of her' 'retrospectively' is also dodgy territory, but it doesn't really affect the argument..)
I tried to think from an In-Universe, wholistic perspective, which is why I mentioned her, but you are right, she doesn't alter the arguement.
Quote:
Furthermore, it was only luck the stamp was licked that day and THAT case was even the one used as the jury trial. (Which really pushes my suspension of disbelief. But there was no way Phoenix planned in advance anything much. If that didn't happen, some other generic case may have been the jury trial that day? Who knows.)
My guess that this is a misinterpretation, a common one, but still: I think that probably the Jury System was in planning for years, BUT they lacked a trial to test it on. As soon as the Misham trial happened, Nick took his chance and pretty much went "This! Let's try it on this, this, this!" Nick has probably wanted to test the system on a generic case at first, just like you suggested. It's just that Misham happened to lick the stamp before something like that could happen, so Nick realized that this is his chance (And he probably didn't mind having a chance to save Vera, too) and used this trial as the test-trial. Since he also had the tons of evidence he had gathered against Kristoph too, he included that as well. It seems like an easily solved puzzle to me. This doesn't solve the question of where the Mason system came from... And yeah, that's one plothole even I don't really want to touch too much. Epileptic trees grow where that thing mentioned... >_>
Quote:
And there's a sad fact: Phoenix does not seem to trust Apollo, not until 4-4. Evidenced by the fact he tells him basically nothing.
Ouch. Why did you have to use the word "fact" here, in a place, that is so obvious about interpretation?
It's fine if you interprete Nick's behaviour as distrust. I'm sure other people do that too. But me and yet some other people don't. There's other, more positive ways and equally valid ways to interprete it. It's not a *fact*.
My interpretation was always that Nick tried to keep Apollo as uninvolved as possible with all things "Jury System" and "7 years ago" on purpose for two reasons. Reason one, he wanted Apollo to form his own opinions, develope on his own style, and generally just be uninfluenced. It'd take ages to explain my exact reasoning behind why he'd want this, but remember, Nick didn't have a mentor for most of his career and Mia was usually more cryptic than useful herself. Maybe he wanted to emulate what Mia did to him for Apollo, rather than babying him. The second reason why I think Nick kept Apollo in the dark: He just didn't know how to talk about it all without seeming self-defensive and maybe even insane. He needed Apollo to make own experiences before he can tell him the truth. Nick may seem "cool" in GS4, but his inner monologue reveals he really isn't. He might just have been really not sure how to tell Apollo without coming off like a liar, so instead he just dodged he subject until he could properly show him the whole picture.
I could say more about it here, but I am running out of time... X'D
Quote:
So the fact Phoenix decided when he first saw Apollo that 'he was/has to use him in the Jury Plot' is just filling in a gap in the game. It's not 'wrong' persay, but the game is just too vague on this. Phoenix saw the bracelet and investigated Apollo for the sake of Trucy as he was clearly a relative. For Trucy's sake. He saw him of use to get off the death penalty and get Kristoph locked up. It wasn't till 4-4 there's any actual evidence Phoenix planned to use Apollo for the jury trial or that Phoenix himself was anticipating/heading a jury trial either. 'Maybe' he was, but the game doesn't prove it. So it can't really be used as a pre-supposition to negate other canonic parts of the game.
Ah... here you go again calling your individual interpretation "Canon". That hurts me everytime I see it, because there'd be such a good discussion in there. ^^;
It's mentioned in the game that Nick needed Apollo. He outright told Apollo at at least 2 points (one in the first case, when he tells Apollo about his power) that he needs "his power"... given, that might have sounded different in the translation. I need to go back and check both scripts, but I am fairly sure.
Of course, how he was trying to do it before he knew Apollo existed is everyone's guess. Maybe he wanted to just pair Trucy off with someone to do it initially. We can't know. But yes, Nick did state that he needed Apollo's powers to prove Kristoph's deeds, even with the Jury trials. Because without being able to read his true emotions, breaking Kristoph's facade of serenity would have been too hard.
Of course, if one insists that Nick also was hungry for revenge against Kristoph, beating him with his own protege... twice... was probably a very nice bonus. X'D
GS4 *is* incredibly vague, but that doesn't mean we have no right to interprete the vague parts. Conversely, I take it as very much of an invitation to interprete and that's the one thing I love GS4 for, even if the reason you can interprete so much is such a bad, bad thing. X'D I guess everything has its good and bad sides...
[quoe]I expect GS5 to ret-con parts of this time with who knows what (not necessarily juries), but it doesn't really affect GS4's own intents anyway.[/quote]
GS5 doesn't need to "retcon" anything, because GS4 was vague in first place. A vague thing cannot/doesn't need to be "retconned", only explained and made more precise. And, again, I argue that it is very possible to fill most plotholes (...except the Mason system, maybe) very well and logically, if you just try.
Quote:
Um, although the ace not even being necessary in the game seems more like, um, writing limitations', I think it's unreasonable to think Phoenix would be able to pre-empt an ENTIRE TRIAL in his head with 100% accuracy especially when he's running on pure fight-or-flight adrenalin. The guy knows his life is on the line and he's going to be on trial for murder. Who cares if it's not the first time, imagine what state of mind you must be in then?
So if Phoenix really forged/had the card forged before the trial even started, I don't see this as a factor. He's pre-empting the worst. Maybe he's not thinking of Apollo's feelings. Well, he probably can't at that time, it's possible they (or the fact he'll have to 'use' an attorney) don't even cross his mind. It must be bad enough to obsess over playing out the 'possible trial' in his mind to convict Kristoph, on the spur of the moment. If he can't, basically he's dead, (or maybe Orly will be, but Phoenix would still blame himself.)
This is very possible, but again, this is
your interpretation, not any more legit or less legit than mine. You cannot use it as "solid evidence" to "debuke" mine. You can only say "I personally like this interpretation better, because this and that doesn't sit right with me" and then we can peacefully discuss why each of us has different preferences there. That doesn't make either of us more "right", it just shows that we have different ideas of how to interprete this very vague game. And, who knows, we might find ourselves expanding our views and getting ideas we never thought of before when we discuss our views like this. That's part of the reason I post my theories online, you know.
Quote:
I still think it was... cheap of the writers to do this seemly to foreshadow 4-4 or whatever the rationale is though. Phoenix using Apollo this way is unethical AND PHOENIX IS AWARE.
Again, according to your interpretation, the writers were likely being cheap, but I have a different interpretation that explains that they likely weren't being "cheap", just rushed and had to cut a lot.
Does either of us know what really happened? No, we don't. So we have no right to claim we did. I don't and you don't. We're both somehow keep claiming we did, though.. Again, bad habbit, I am trying to get rid of it.
Quote:
So maybe Phoenix has a low opinion of Apollo? Some dumb rookie who's blind enough to be Kristoph's student? It's like, wake up. Phoenix is bitter and jealous. It reminds him of what he lost. From Kristoph no less. - that's the assumption I can extrapolate from this and other parts of the game. He's more likely initially contacting him on Trucy's behalf (as he's clearly some kind of relative) rather than Apollo's.
I know some people like to think about happy families with that game but I'm afraid that was never the vibe I got between Phoenix<>Apollo.
...Wow, you have a negative view of Nick and Apollo's interaction. I-I mean, you totally can, but, wow... We need to have a chat about that some time I am burning to know how someone can be so disillusioned by their relationship... (I am being serious, I am genuiely interested and want to know and discuss it with you! It *is* likely a valid interpretation, just totally not the one I got out of it, not even remotely!)
Quote:
One other thing I'd change about your 'hypothesis' .... it stil seems weird for Phoenix to automatically ASSUME Trucy forged the card not Apollo, if Phoenix had no part in the entire card-evidence forgery. Just because Apollo doesn't 'seem' like a forger, the guy is still KRISTOPH's student. Maybe Kristoph taught him some of his 'tactics'? Your hypothesis here is that Phoenix will mistrust his own daughter while 100% trusting Kristoph's own student, who he's never even spoken to before today, when a 'mystery crime' happens. True, maybe Trucy would do something like that, but it's yet another assumption 'Phoenix must make'.
OK, really running out of time here, so I will cut this short and say more later, but here just:
Yes, this could be a problem, but that's why I said he "he only knew for sure once APollo said he met Trucy."
Gah, I need to go, anyway, this is all for now, maybe I'll edit later, maybe not, see ya!!
...Because I felt the need to advertise
my fanfic with a self-drawn, animated banner. Yes, I'm obsessed, why do you ask?