This thread is in response to the comments I've seen from various people who say that they are at least semi-seriously thinking of becoming attorneys, and for the general entertainment of everyone else. I will be starting law school on August 14, so I'll be in the unique position to give you a first-hand account of my trials and tribulations on my way to pursuing justice for all, or at least passing the bar exam.

Please feel free to ask any questions you may have and I'll do my best to explain. Note that his thread will describe strictly the U.S. process, and specifically my own experience and viewpoint. Your mileage will vary.

I have to go to work, and then Japanese class, so my first regular post will be tonight, giving a little background about myself, and the first step: getting in to law school.

And now, your Moment of Zen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E5ipjXRlC4

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Last edited by Starbuck on Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

Ha ha, good luck with law school! :) I look forward to seeing this...

My parents have already told me enough about how PW isn't anything at all like real law, so I'm already convinced, but I look forward to seeing it coming from an actual ace attorney player (and from lawyers who didn't defend triceratopses >_>)

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Anyone who thinks that the games represent the reality of the legal system is in for a big shock.

This should be interesting, though :)

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I'll be looking forward to this. Should be interesting to see the struggles of an Ace Attorney player in law school. :3

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this seems interesting. i hope we all know that ace attorney is far from representing the legal system.

i'm just reading this for the lulz

I, like many others, know that the PW system is hardly the same system reality uses. But I'm interested in reading these journal entries. :)

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Great first post. I can't wait to read more.

I do have a question. What is the LSAT like? What kind of questions does it ask and what is considered a decent score for most schools?

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Law school? More like lawl school … The quality of your experience will greatly be influenced by the quality of your professors, since they’re not exactly granted a tenure based on their ability to teach students. Of course any embittered and jaded college student knows that … I’ve written my share of damning class evaluation reports, though I doubt they actually read those and care.

Anyway, congrats on making it in, just three years (hopefully) for that J.D. degree.

Just curious, what did you undergrad in? And how well did you do on your LSAT’s, of course you don’t have to answer if you don’t feel like it.

I am also interested. ^_^

Good luck, I'll be reading these too.

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First, I'm glad to know that just about everyone here (or at least everybody that posted a reply in this thread) understands that the Ace Attorney series is about as realistic of a depiction of the criminal law system as much as playing Asteroids inside a patient's thoracic cavity is a simulation of surgery[1]. For a more accurate pop-culture depiction of a trial, I highly recommend the classic 1959 film Anatomy of a Murder.

I don't know exactly how much is off, and won't for a while, as criminal law isn't until my fourth semester, and criminal procedure has that as a prerequisite. Keep in mind that the trial system in the games is a little closer to the Japanese system, including the inquisitorial system (in which the judge has powers such as calling witness and accepting evidence, as opposed to the common-law adversarial system in which the attorneys pretty much call the shots and the judge just referees), the lack of juries, extremely high conviction rates[2], and even the attorneys' badge[3]. Other things, like the three-day limit, surprise witnesses, and whips, are for dramatic purposes only.

Here's the very brief bio. I grew up near Chicago, and studied electrical engineering at the University of Illinois[4]. After graduation, I moved to northern Virginia (metro DC), where I now work for the federal government. I know that engineering is a rather unusual choice of undergraduate study for an attorney[5], but I did not consider law school until I accepted my job, about three years ago, when my agency offered to pay for it. Of course now with the recession and budget cuts, that fund dried up, which will bring me to the subject of a later post, getting myself into lots of debt. I didn't pick up Phoenix Wright until about a year ago, probably after I took the LSAT, so I can't say that playing the games affected my decision. And now, as promised...

Getting In

There are 188 fully accredited law schools in the US, with another 12 with provisional accreditation. Unlike undergraduate admissions, pretty much run by the individual colleges you apply to themselves, The admissions process is centralized, run by the Law School Admission Council (LSAC), a division of the ETS, those same wonderful folks who brought us the SAT. Most schools only accept online admissions submitted through their LSDAS system, wherein you do such things as register for the LSAT, get copies of your transcript, and upload/recycle essays[6].

Although each school uses a different formula, they all require:

• your undergraduate transcript (GPA)
• your LSAT score
• one or more recommendations
• one or more essays.

The first two are the most important. If you graduated at the top of your class in college, the LSAT shouldn't intimidate you all that much. However, if you partied a little too hard, you really should concentrate on acing the LSAT. No law school will give you the exact magic number required for a given year, as the number of applicants fluctuates, but they will show you profiles of recent incoming classes. Here's the tables of three schools in D.C, ranked in descending prestige:

Georgetown (2007 median LSAT 170, median GPA 3.67)
American (2008 median LSAT 161, median GPA 3.41)
U.D.C. (2008 median LSAT 151, median GPA 3.1)

The LSAT is scored from 120--180, with 180 being perfect, 150 being median, and 120 being Lionel Hutz.

Admissions counselors give consideration to your undergraduate school and program of study, with a 3.2 GPA from Ivy U in a hard science being more impressive than the same 3.2 GPA in recreational studies from Moo State or Saint Obscure.

The other two factors, the recommendations and essays, serve more as arbiters if your objective scores are borderline.

The essay will often be in the form of an open-ended "personal statement". An admissions officer told me at an information session at the school of my choice that they do not want to read "Why I want to be a lawyer". Any essay with the phrase "Perry Mason", "Denny Crane", or "Apollo Justice" will likely not be taken very seriously[7]. They also do not want to read "Why I want to go to George Washington University Law School", especially the counselors at George Mason, Georgetown, Washington and Lee, Washington University St. Louis, or University of Washington. Instead, they want to know "Why you should let me in to your school". If you have even a small amount of legal experience, such as an internship in a law firm, or participation in student government, write about that, giving the impression that you know at least a little of what to expect[8].

My best recommendation is to apply early; each school has a limited number of slots available, and when they're gone they're gone, making the admissions process more selective as the deadline approaches. If there's one place that you absolutely have your heart set on, consider applying for early decision--admissions counselors like commitment.

It's getting pretty late, so I'll save a more detailed post on the LSAT until tomorrow. So until next time, here's your



~Footnotes~(a legal tradition)

[1]Of course, that may all change once they get around to inventing Antibiotic Gel.
[2]In Japan, according to Wikipedia, prosecutors are expected to have near-perfect records, and so cherry-pick only the most slam-dunk cases to press charges. This combines with other corrupt practices such as judge-shopping and an epidemic of false confessions. Defense attorneys often advise their clients to plead "guilty" in view of the relatively lenient sentencing laws. Certain aspects of the games, such as Manfred's perfectionism and Edgeworth's comment that the defense attorney seem to have "kick me" signs, suddenly make more sense. Read more at the wiki article.
[3]Various examples here. For the ultimate cosplay accessory, you can even buy your own 100% accurate replica at this site for around $250.
[4]Go Illini!
[5]Patent attorneys being the major exception, needing the ability to understand both the law and their clients' inventions.
[6]If you recycle your essay from Yale in your application to Harvard, please make sure that you replace all references appropriately.
[7]Although the Sotomayor hearings may make "Perry Mason" more acceptable.
[8]Your intimate familiarity with the juvenile justice system probably won't help.

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This is hilariously great so far. A very entertaining read.

What kind of law do you want to practice?

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I think he implied criminal law, but I'm still not sure. Also, are you planning to become a defence attorney or a prosecutor?

But, I agree with Lunaria. This is really entertaining to read.

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lawlz Japanese have no souls.

This has been a very interesting read so far. I look forward to asking questions once you've become better educated about the finer points of our legal system.

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Very interesting and humorous :3

I can't wait to get to read more of this!!

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Thanks for the positive response, hope I'm not boring anybody.

Criminal law is a required gen. ed.--everybody has to take it. The criminal procedure is an elective.
I'm keeping my options open, but right now, constitutional law appeals to me more than anything else. Trademark law also looks interesting.
Criminal law doesn't seem very pleasant, spending your whole career working with violent crime. But if I had to pick one side, I'd rather be a prosecutor.

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Hmm, this is an interesting read. Good luck and keep up the great work.

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oh wow... I was wrong, haha sorry.

Next post, could you also maybe outline the basics of the different types of law?

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I'm not sure how comprehensive I can be...law is a much more diverse field than you may expect. Lawyers may specialize in very narrow fields within a broader subject. For example, in "criminal law", besides prosecutors, public defenders, and defense attorneys, you may run across specialists in:

Evidence. How do we know that the policeman didn't plant the bloody glove? Was the defendant's confession forced?
Expert Witnesses. Is that doctor giving credible, unbiased testimony that all the injuries to the victim were caused by the defendant?
Cross-examination. The witness is lying, dammit, and I can prove it!
Advocacy. Were the defendant's rights constitutionally violated? How far can we appeal this?
Jury selection. How can we pick the jurors who will give us a verdict in our favor, while staying within legal and ethical guidelines?

If you look at the course list in any law school, there are lots of people who specialize in the subject matter taught in that course.

Off the top of my head, some major specialties include, but of course are not limited to:

Torts. Malpractice, dog bites, libel, and so forth. The province of ambulance-chasing slimeballs.
Property. Real estate, mortgages, foreclosures, easements, trespassing, zoning, and the like.
Intellectual property. Patents, Trademarks, Copyright, Trade Secrets.
Business law. Contracts and subcontracts, warranties, employment and labor, product liability, insider trading, regulations.
Tax law. Featured in Mark 12:14.
International law. Shipping, terrorism, treaties, war, &c.
Legislation. Ensuring you have enforceable laws and avoiding embarrassing loopholes [1].
Criminal law. The "Law" in Law and Order.
Personal law. Wills, trusts, divorces, bankruptcy.
Constitutional law (Also called advocacy or jurisprudence). Your rights, and what happens when somebody else or the government violates them.

But before you can do any of that, you first need to take

The LSAT

First I'll clear up a couple of common misconceptions. The LSAT does not test your knowledge of the laws or what to do in the courtroom. That's the bar exam, which doesn't come up until after you graduate.
Also, the LSAT is not a "SAT on Steroids", even though it has the letters "SAT" in it. The GRE, which is the entrance exam for graduate school in most academic subjects, is more accurately described this way[2].

The LSAT is in six sections, each of 35 minutes each. You go through the whole thing in one sitting, with a short 10-15 minute break after the third section. Each test will include:

• One "Reading Comprehension" section. You read passages adapted from various academic papers, and answer questions that show you know what the author was (or was not) talking about.
• Two "Logical Reasoning" or "Arguments" sections. You are given a series of much briefer passages, and see if you can discover any strengths, weaknesses, or contradictions. Please resist the temptation to point your finger at the proctor.
• One "Analytical Reasoning" or "Games" section. Remember those "John lives in the blue house, Mary lives to the west of the red house" puzzles? It's a lot like those.
• One bonus section, which may be any of the above types. This is not scored, but is used to test questions for future sessions. Of course you won't know which of these section this is, only that if, for example, you run across two Games sections, one of them is the bonus.
• One essay. Somebody has to choose between two options each with their advantages and disadvantages. Pick which one you think is best, and let us know why. This doesn't count as part of your score, but it gets forwarded to the schools where you select to have their score sent. It's a bit like the essay or personal statement in your application in that it may be the decision maker if you are borderline. In this case, you're demonstrating your ability to convincingly, logically, and speedily present an argument.

The best advice I have is to practice, practice, practice. You can order old tests directly from the LSAC or from any online bookstore, or find bound copies at regular bookstores.
You can, in fact, try your hand at the June 2007 LSAT for free right here: http://www.lsac.org/pdfs/SamplePTJune.pdf

The official practice pamphlet from LSAC is also available online at http://www.lsac.org/pdfs/LSATPreparationweb.pdf. In fact, that's probably the best place to start.

You may find that one section in particular is difficult for you, or you may want a more comprehensive review of strategies in general. All the companies that sell prep books on the SAT and ACT like Kaplan and the Princeton Review also sell prep guides for the LSAT and even for individual sections, so you might want to look at those. The tutoring classes that cost thousands of dollars are likely a waste of your money.

The test is offered four times in a yearly cycle: June, September, December, and February. Most schools will accept only the first three for the next fall. This year (as of 2009.07.25), the June test is already over, but registration for the September test and December tests are open, so if you want to start in 2010, it's not too late. Of course, you might want to weigh that against the limited amount of study time you have now, and consider saving up some money and waiting until next year.

Scoring, as I already mentioned in a previous post, is scored on a bell curve from 120 to 180.



You can generally re-take the exam without penalty, with most schools accepting the highest score and a few averaging your scores, so as long as you improve the second time around, it won't hurt. I don't know if there are any places that only accept the first exam you took.

Myself, I took the test twice: first in June, where I got a 162. Combined with my relatively low GPA of 3.0, I didn't think this was quite high enough, so I tried again in September and got a 168, and got accepted to the school of my choice early decision.

I think next time I'll discuss financing and what happens once you get accepted.

So until next time, here's your:



~~~~~
[1]Recent example: discovering that Connecticut legally allows strippers to be as young as 16.
[2]The other major professional post-graduate institutions, Med School and Business School, require the MCAT and GMAT respectively. I have no knowledge of what's in those.

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...

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the LSAT sounds fun.

THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I WAS THINKING.
Holy shit, I'm taking the LSAT, I'm not gonna become a lawyer, but I'm sure as hell taking that test. Can AA have a section where you take the LSAT? That would be awesome.

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Now I can see why my friend had a nervous break down when she tried to take the LSAT.

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Last edited by Lunaria42 on Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

XD This makes me want to take it even more. Now I need to study.

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Logical reasoning is fun.

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Oh my God! I was actually confident on most of the answers I bubbled in. Whoo! *confidence dance*

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C-R is practically the only place where the majority of the members will find the LSAT fun.

Then again, we're people who find it entertaining to play a game about being a lawyer so...

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Not just any lawyer! He's got awesome hair and an epic pointer finger, and a successor who also has those!

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I bet games are even more fun

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Therefore, logical reasoning games are the best!

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I didn't mean to scare anybody, but I can't sugarcoat it. The LSAT, just like law school, the bar exam, and a law career, is intense.
I'm sure most people will tell you that the most difficult part of the test is the time limit. The games in particular wouldn't be so bad if you had more time, but 35 minutes is a struggle to complete in time while not rushing your judgment.

The test basically evaluates your logical and analytic reasoning skills. PW probably isn't bad training for the Arguments section.
In undergrad, you may want to consider taking a class in Logic as a gen-ed. It's certainly useful, and not just for the test. If you're in a math-heavy program like engineering, a math course like "Mathematical Reasoning" or "Fundamentals of Higher Mathematics"--one with rigorous proofs, may be required anyway.

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Games = Analytic Reasoning >_>

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We had a whole section of our first Intro. to Philosophy class devoted to those types of analytical reasoning problems. We called them Syllogisms. They were kind of difficult at first, but once you figured out the language of the problems you could pick which ones were illogical and which ones weren't. Maybe the ones on the LSAT are more complex though.

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ARGUMENTS SECTION?

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Wow, how come I haven't read this topic sooner? This is totally entertaining.

...and I want a replica Prosecutor's badge.

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Try sending a screenshot of Gant's office to a craftsman and you know what to do from there.

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IIRC, the SATs don't count questions that you didn't answer. Am I right?

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Or just buy one from this site.

Although $250 is kind of steep...

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SATs, PSATs, SAT Subject Tests, and APs all give you 1 point for each correct answer, 0 points for each question unanswered, and a penalty for each incorrect answer. The penalty is equal to 1/(c-1), where c is the number of answer choices per question. For just about all of them c is five, but there's a few (Latin, I think?) where it's 4.

Forget/Don't know how it is for any other tests.

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Choosing a school

To be honest, it's not really that difficult from choosing an undergrad college. Factors like cost, location, and size are all important, and you have to decide what's best for you, and how much you want to weigh each of these.

However, there are a couple things you should know. First:

Try to go to a school located in the same state you are planning on taking the bar exam. If you want to be a general practitioner in your hometown, you probably want to take advantage of in-state tuition and go to State U. If you're interested in business law, try for New York. If you want to defend celebrities, California's where you want to be. If you're up to the challenge of patent law, anywhere on the west coast will work, or maybe in Texas, Chicago, or George Mason in Arlington VA, near the Patent Office. If there's a particular city where you want to practice, try to study in or near there--all but the biggest firms do most of their hiring locally.

Also, politics plays a more important role here than it did before. If you're idea of good clean fun is going to your local Town Hall meeting and throwing tea bags at congressmen, the Princeton Review's "Candidates for Heritage Foundation Fellowships" list might be a guidepost. Or if that sounds less a lot less thrilling than hiking the Appalachian Trail, YES YOU CAN plug in your bootleg Rage against the Machine CD in your Prius and pay a visit to someplace on the "Candidates for Center for American Progress Fellowships" list.

Once that's settled, you're next concern is

Paying
Law school isn't cheap. At George Washington University, the yearly tuition for a full time student is $42,205. Figure in room, board, books, travel, and beer, multiply that by three years, and you're talking about $200,000. There's a lot of other stuff you can do with that, like buy a house condo, a ticket to space, a 1995 Ferrari Testarossa, or everything in this guy's basement. So what to do?


Nice, if you can pull it off, but not realistic for most of us.



Not likely in this economy. But for some of the younger readers who won't be starting for a few years, this might be a strategy if you're planning on woking for the Feds. Downside: You have to keep working at the same place for a couple years after you graduate.




I don't like having to say this, but probably what you're going to have to do. Federal Stafford loans are available at 6.8%. Private companies' loans are a bit...steeper.


And what I'm doing:


Get into the workforce, get some experience, save enough so your loan won't be quite so opressive, and enroll part-time. It's also usually a little bit easier to get admitted. However, you will be stressed. Just due to the time commitment involved (four years of 8 hour work days + 2 hours in class + reading + study), definitely not for everybody.

I start on Friday. Tomorrow, there's one more thing I want to post before I start on the real meat-and-potatoes "insider's look". I promise, there won't be any more posts in which I remind you of your high school guidance counselor.

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Very interesting topic.

One of my aspirations is to become a defense attorney, but not only because the Ace Attorney series. (I admit, ir may have added fuel to the fire. ) One problem is I'd really rather not leave my home state, but there's really little law schools here. Money may be a potential problem, but shouldn't be impossible. I'll definitely reconsider before choosing law as my profession, I still have 2 years, at least, left.

Also... I'm not a very good test taker. I freeze and blank out, and tank, or barely pass with disappointing scores. What should I do? I'll be taking some big-time college entrance exams as practice before I graduate high school to get used to them, but I'm not sure how much they'll improve my test-taking abilities.

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I know how bitchly tuition can be but HOLY MOTHER OF JUSTICE $200,000? That's like...over nine thousand! Makes UC tuition look like a grocery budget by comparison.



I used to have this same problem but it turned out the cause of my failure was simply not studying enough. Just don't freak out; find out what you need to be studying and study for that in your own element. Don't over exert yourself; listen to music, go for a walk, or do something (other than play video games). It helps exercise your brain and memorize potential exam questions so you can take one look at the problem and figure out the answer in a few seconds rather than a few minutes.

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