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The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player
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Author:  GigaHand [ Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

Starbvck wrote:
You'd be surprised. In some jurisdictions, over-dressing or dressing too flashy may be seen as an attempt to hide the lack of substance in your arguments. Juries are fickle.

Here is a motion filed in Florida, in which one attorney argued that the opposing attorney was wearing worn-out shoes as "a ruse to impress the jury and make them believe that [he] is humble and simple without sophistication", or the old "I'm just a simple country lawyer" gambit.

I've seen that before! Though I don't think the jury would direct much attention at all to the soles of one's shoes, even if they are frequently exposed. Further, how can one make an assumption of how people would think when they see this? He's (the guy making the claim) a lawyer, not a psychologist.

Author:  DREWdesu [ Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

The only thing I know is that this system is not the adversary system but instead the Inquisitorial System... the Judge has more power in the latter... the lawyers have to find their own evidence and all with the Judge's permission...

see.... Legal Studies at school actually WORKS XD

Author:  L_J [ Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

Coffee Prosecutor wrote:
I seriously wanna get a Lawyer because I wanna help people who has no help
AND I gotta admit that I got inspired by PW:AA to get a lawyer
Does anyone here think I am A foolish fool who thinks foolishly thaughts becaue of a foolish Game??? :franny:

yes, me. it's just a game and does not or in any way reflect real criminals, court systems, lawyers, and such.

Author:  Coffee Prosecutor [ Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

L_J wrote:
Coffee Prosecutor wrote:
I seriously wanna get a Lawyer because I wanna help people who has no help
AND I gotta admit that I got inspired by PW:AA to get a lawyer
Does anyone here think I am A foolish fool who thinks foolishly thaughts becaue of a foolish Game??? :franny:

yes, me. it's just a game and does not or in any way reflect real criminals, court systems, lawyers, and such.

I hope u know that I am aware of it what and how reallity is and what is only a game

Author:  L_J [ Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

Coffee Prosecutor wrote:
L_J wrote:
Coffee Prosecutor wrote:
I seriously wanna get a Lawyer because I wanna help people who has no help
AND I gotta admit that I got inspired by PW:AA to get a lawyer
Does anyone here think I am A foolish fool who thinks foolishly thaughts becaue of a foolish Game??? :franny:

yes, me. it's just a game and does not or in any way reflect real criminals, court systems, lawyers, and such.

I hope u know that I am aware of it what and how reallity is and what is only a game

then you'll know that being a lawyer isn't entirely about helping people?

Author:  Coffee Prosecutor [ Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

Of course do I know that
BUT I wanna become the kind of lawyer phoenix is ( idon´t know the english word)

Author:  Lunaria42 [ Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

Don't spam Starbuck's (or would you prefer me to switch the u with the v?) with your fights. Take this discussion to pm.

Author:  Coffee Prosecutor [ Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

I am sorry! :larry:

Author:  Starbvck [ Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

I'll post more later today. Until then, enjoy some filler.

Author:  GigaHand [ Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

Starbvck wrote:

Classic!

Author:  Starbvck [ Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

The final word about fashion is "Professional". Just don't let your clothes be louder than your voice.

Had a meeting with the mock trial team yesterday. We started drafting the opening statements and questions to ask the witnesses during direct and cross-examination. We also strategerized about what evidence and testimony we should try to get excluded.

Special welcome to Coffee Prosecutor. Please keep in mind that the American legal system, including legal education, is entirely different from the German system.

Author:  Bad Player [ Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

Starbvck wrote:
We also strategerized about what evidence and testimony we should try to get excluded.

Spoiler: AA
Quick! Replay all of Manfred's and Gant's parts!


(...Unless you mean the okay way like Bikini)

Author:  GigaHand [ Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

I wish we had a eureka smiley. This would be the perfect opportunity to use it. :larry:

Anyway, having philosophy as a hobby, I have pondered the moral part of practicing law (defending criminals), and have come up with a reason why one shouldn't worry about it.

Let's compare a lawyer to, say, a potato farmer. The big issue with lawyers is that they offer their services to criminals, correct? Well, a farmer would sow their seeds, grow their crops, sell them to a distributor...

Who then gives them to criminals.

Repeat this logic with any occupation. If no one offered their goods and services to criminals, there would be no crime for a lawyer to defend them for, as they would starve to death or something. In other words, all occupations are as reprehensible as lawyers (except for those you can live without, like barbers and car manufacturers).

What's that, you say? A lawyer can control whether or not they serve a criminal? Well, as Edgeworth said in 1-2 (or at least something along these lines), there is no way to tell if a defendant (or a client) is telling the truth. Add in corrupt policemen, and even evidence isn't all that reliable.

Author:  Coffee Prosecutor [ Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

Starbvck wrote:
The final word about fashion is "Professional". Just don't let your clothes be louder than your voice.

Had a meeting with the mock trial team yesterday. We started drafting the opening statements and questions to ask the witnesses during direct and cross-examination. We also strategerized about what evidence and testimony we should try to get excluded.

Special welcome to Coffee Prosecutor. Please keep in mind that the American legal system, including legal education, is entirely different from the German system.

THX for the welcome,and I know that the legal systems are different.I already watched trials here.

Author:  Bad Player [ Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

GigaHand wrote:
I wish we had a eureka smiley. This would be the perfect opportunity to use it. :larry:

Anyway, having philosophy as a hobby, I have pondered the moral part of practicing law (defending criminals), and have come up with a reason why one shouldn't worry about it.

Let's compare a lawyer to, say, a potato farmer. The big issue with lawyers is that they offer their services to criminals, correct? Well, a farmer would sow their seeds, grow their crops, sell them to a distributor...

Who then gives them to criminals.

Repeat this logic with any occupation. If no one offered their goods and services to criminals, there would be no crime for a lawyer to defend them for, as they would starve to death or something. In other words, all occupations are as reprehensible as lawyers (except for those you can live without, like barbers and car manufacturers).

What's that, you say? A lawyer can control whether or not they serve a criminal? Well, as Edgeworth said in 1-2 (or at least something along these lines), there is no way to tell if a defendant (or a client) is telling the truth. Add in corrupt policemen, and even evidence isn't all that reliable.

Uhm... There's a bit of a difference between giving a potato to some guy who has a very slim chance of being a criminal, and getting someone who could very well be the criminal off the hook.

Just because you're a defense attorney doesn't mean you need to serve criminals. When the defendant is innocent, the prosecutor is serving a criminal. The whole point of the legal system is to find out who's guilty and give out punishment to the guilty parties; you aren't going to get anywhere if you only have one side. (That's the whole point of playing devil's advocate, after all.)


btw, no occupation is "essential". A certain occupation may just provide an essential product. Need clothes? Not if you live in a warm enough climate. Food and water? Grow your own, pick wild berries, or hunt for your own food. Find some natural shelter. You get sick? Well, that's what your immune system is for.

Author:  GigaHand [ Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

Bad Player, I sent you a PM to prevent the thread from getting derailed.

Author:  Starbvck [ Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

Bad Player wrote:
btw, no occupation is "essential". A certain occupation may just provide an essential product. Need clothes? Not if you live in a warm enough climate. Food and water? Grow your own, pick wild berries, or hunt for your own food. Find some natural shelter. You get sick? Well, that's what your immune system is for.


That's actually an interesting observation. Justice Scalia recently said in an interview that he is disappointed in the quality of attorneys, saying that there are too many good ones, and every brilliant attorney means there's one less brilliant engineer, concluding that America's best minds were being "wasted".

Quote:
I mean lawyers, after all, don’t produce anything. They enable other people to produce and to go on with their lives efficiently and in an atmosphere of freedom. That’s important, but it doesn’t put food on the table and there have to be other people who are doing that. And I worry that we are devoting too many of our very best minds to this enterprise.

Author:  Starbvck [ Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

I'm using the text scanned directly from the book, since I doubt many of you would believe me otherwise.

Image

Author:  Bad Player [ Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

...I hope the last word on the previous line was "magic".

Author:  GigaHand [ Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

..........................................................................................................................................................................

:wtf:

Author:  Starbvck [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

Please keep in mind that I am not making any of this up.

The case was Guthrie v. Powell, 290 P.2d 834 (Kan. 1955). We discussed it in class today.
A county fair was held in a two-story pavilion, with an arts and crafts sale on the first floor, and a livestock exhibit on the second floor. The Plaintiff, Mrs. Fannie Hope Guthrie, was sitting in a chair on the lower floor, conversing with some friends. Then, accompanied by a loud clatter, bits of plaster began falling from the ceiling onto Mrs. Guthrie and her friends, and this is an exact quote now, "followed instantaneously----as plaintiff later learned----by a six hundred pound steer falling through the ceiling immediately over and approximately twelve feet above her position, said beast falling and landing upon plaintiff as she sat in said chair, knocking her unconscious, flattening the chair and plaintiff to the floor and under said steer". Mrs. Price sued the owner and manager of the pavilion for her injuries.

The Supreme Court of Kansas found, under res ipsa loquitur[1] doctrine held that the defendants were liable, since the mere fact that they allowed a cow to fall through a floor in their building is evidence of their negligence.


~~~~
[1]A bit of Latin for you. Res ipsa loquitur means "the thing speaks for itself" This is when you have indirect or circumstantial evidence that a specific party committed some act of negligence, but you're not sure what it was. For example, you give Adrian Andrews a priceless Fey clan vase for safekeeping for a week. You carefully pack the intact vase in a crate, and pad it properly. A week later, when she gives the crate back to you, you open it and discover that the vase is now shattered into a dozen pieces. Ms. Andrews doesn't know, or isn't willing to tell, how it got broken. Andrews is likely negligent under res ipsa, just because her negligence is the most likely explanation for the vase breaking, even though you can't prove exactly how she broke it.

Edit: Romani ite domum.

Author:  Lunaria42 [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

What genius' idea was it to have live stock on the second floor anyway? People scare me sometimes.

Author:  Yaragorm [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

Wow....just, wow.............. :gregory:

Since when is the county fair indoors? :udgy:

Author:  GigaHand [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

Lunaria42 wrote:
What genius' idea was it to have live stock on the second floor anyway? People scare me sometimes.

I guess that's res ipsa loquitor for you.

Author:  Bad Player [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

Shouldn't it be res ipsa loquitur? :yuusaku:

(*is a nitpicky latin freak*)

Author:  Starbvck [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

Bad Player wrote:
Shouldn't it be res ipsa loquitur? :yuusaku:

(*is a nitpicky latin freak*)


You're absolutely correct. Look, it's even spelled with a u in the scan I posted.
*goes back to edit*

By the way, is it pronounced "ray ipsa" or "ress ipsa"?

Author:  Starbvck [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

Lunaria42 wrote:
What genius' idea was it to have live stock on the second floor anyway? People scare me sometimes.


Six hundred pounds isn't really all that much. A refrigerator weighs four hundred pounds. Three corn-fed Kansas on a sofa may approach six hundred pounds. Should everybody keep their refrigerator and sofa in the basement only?

Also, this building was designed and built as a livestock pavilion.

Author:  Yaragorm [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

Starbvck wrote:
Lunaria42 wrote:
What genius' idea was it to have live stock on the second floor anyway? People scare me sometimes.


Six hundred pounds isn't really all that much. A refrigerator weighs four hundred pounds. Three corn-fed Kansas on a sofa may approach six hundred pounds. Should everybody keep their refrigerator and sofa in the basement only?

Also, this building was designed and built as a livestock pavilion.

The real question is WHY IS THE COUNTY FAIR EVEN INDOORS?!

Aren't they usually outside?...... :eh?:

Author:  Bad Player [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

Starbvck wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
Shouldn't it be res ipsa loquitur? :yuusaku:

(*is a nitpicky latin freak*)


You're absolutely correct. Look, it's even spelled with a u in the scan I posted.
*goes back to edit*

By the way, is it pronounced "ray ipsa" or "ress ipsa"?

It's a long e (which is pronounced as "ay" or "ey", not "ee") so "res" shold be pronounced as you would pronounce the english word "race" (the s is pronunced differently than in "rays"), and the i and a are short so ipsa is just pronouced the way it looks. (This is from my knowledge of traditional latin. If you ask someone who knows church latin or butchered-modern-latin, you may get a different answer.)



Anyway, even if it was built as a livestock pavilion, it still makes much more sense to have the livestock on the first floor.

Author:  Coffee Prosecutor [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

Bad Player wrote:
Starbvck wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
Shouldn't it be res ipsa loquitur? :yuusaku:

(*is a nitpicky latin freak*)


You're absolutely correct. Look, it's even spelled with a u in the scan I posted.
*goes back to edit*

By the way, is it pronounced "ray ipsa" or "ress ipsa"?

It's a long e (which is pronounced as "ay" or "ey", not "ee") so "res" shold be pronounced as you would pronounce the english word "race" (the s is pronunced differently than in "rays"), and the i and a are short so ipsa is just pronouced the way it looks. (This is from my knowledge of traditional latin. If you ask someone who knows church latin or butchered-modern-latin, you may get a different answer.)



Anyway, even if it was built as a livestock pavilion, it still makes much more sense to have the livestock on the first floor.

What are u guys talking about? :payne: :payne:

Author:  GigaHand [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

We're talking about the inconvenience of building a ramp of some sort to get the cows to the second floor.

Author:  BSX [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

That sounds like the funniest case ever.

We need a version where it was intentional and the victim died to go in AA.

And the judge must have been laughing a lot when it happened.

Author:  FerdieLance [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

I'd like to propose a legal debate:

This thread: Good thread? Or BEST THREAD?

The few law classes I've taken have piqued my interest a little, and it's neat to see such an energetic, clever presentation of legal education looked at through AA-colored lenses. If only a forensics student could start the equivalent thread for Ema...

Author:  L_J [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

Coffee Prosecutor wrote:
What are u guys talking about? :payne: :payne:

latin. if you read the quote you quoted.

Author:  Coffee Prosecutor [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

L_J wrote:
Coffee Prosecutor wrote:
What are u guys talking about? :payne: :payne:

latin. if you read the quote you quoted.

I don´t know latin :yogi:
but what does it has to do with the legal education of an ace attorney player? :udgy:

Author:  Yaragorm [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

Coffee Prosecutor wrote:
L_J wrote:
Coffee Prosecutor wrote:
What are u guys talking about? :payne: :payne:

latin. if you read the quote you quoted.

I don´t know latin :yogi:
but what does it has to do with the legal education of an ace attorney player? :udgy:

I'm only guessing but, there are probably LOTS of Latin terms used in the real world of lawyering.... :yuusaku:

Author:  Starbvck [ Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

As a general rule, judges are allowed to use a lot more Latin than attorneys. This is one of the privileges of the bench. See Scalia, A. and Garner, B.A., Making Your Case: The Art of Persuading Judges, pg. 114:

Quote:
Some Latin expressions are convenient shorthand for rules or principles that have no English shorthand equivalent (res ipsa loquitur, for example, or inclusio unius est exclusio alterius). But avoid using other Latin phrases, such as ceteris paribus, inter alia, mutatis mutandis, and pari passu. Judges are permitted to show off in this fashion, but lawyers are not. And the judge who does not happen to know the obscure Latin phrase you have flaunted will think you a twit.


This may be a good time to leave the cow case alone and discuss legal writing in general. In short, you need the judge to understand what you are saying in order for him to rule in your favor. The writing professor and TA are trying to make this as clear as possible.

For example, read this order denying a defendant's motion. For more fun, try Bradshaw v. Unity Marine Corp., 147 F. Supp. 2d 668 (S.D. Tex. 2001).

Author:  GigaHand [ Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

first link wrote:
Before the court is a motion entitled “Defendant’s Motion to Discharge Response to Plaintiff’s Response to Defendant’s Response Opposing Objection to Discharge.”


I have no idea what that means, and from the looks of things, neither did the judge.

EDIT: Almost forgot to ask about laws regarding Death in Absentia, mentioned in 4-4.

Author:  Starbvck [ Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

I'm not sure about death in absentia. According to Wikipedia, you usually have to wait seven years.

Author:  Tinker [ Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Legal Education of an Ace Attorney Player

generally using latin in court is pretentiousness and showing off to the clients

my uncle lawyer told me there's quite a few in-jokes hidden in them as well

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