I'm surprised there isn't a topic on this...

Anyway, what do people think about the Health care debate going on in the US right now? Speaking from a Canadian POV, I don't really see the point of some of the uproar I've read/seen in opposition to the idea (i.e: Posters with Obama with a Hitler mustache). While I don't see our system as perfect I definitely wouldn't change it for the US' current one. Even after reading some of the arguments against universal healthcare I just don't see much of a decent reason to say "SCREW HEALTHCARE! DOWN WITH SOCIALIST AGENDA!".

EDIT: Wahoo, finally a Decisive Witness!

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I think we should do it the canadian way....whatever the canadian way is...

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the canadian way is free healthcare for all.

Then we should definitely do it that way!
Though I wouldn't have objected if the canadian way means that health care is unimportant because Canadia is a utopia where no one gets sick.....maybe that's why the health care is free...

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We wouldn't even have to worry about half of these diseases if we just lived healthier lives instead of sitting on our bums playing dumb games like Phoenix Wright.

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it's not nearly that simple and i won't pretend to understand all of it.

^^^^

Oh so true...except for the dumb part...

I am...

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OH SNAP!! :O

I agree with Robin. There's really no need for us Americans to get in such an uproar over something like this. I mean, I really don't understand this whole debate, but it's getting ridiculous. Ultra conservatives such as Bill O'Reilly or that other douchebag from Fox(his name just slipped my mind...ugh) freaking out that, "OMG WE'RE GONNA BE COMMUNISTS NOW!!" Get the fuck real people. Putting a Hitler mustache on Obama is a bit extreme and kind of disrespectful IMHO. Sure everyone has the right to freedom of speech, but comparing a president who wants a change in health care to a mass-murdering fuckhead is going too far.

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Well, some people tend to overeact especially when their health is on the line...

I don't care much for health care because I'm way too cowardly and cautious for injuries and sickness....although keeping plenty of onions lying around in my room helps too....

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I was kinda hoping this topic wouldn’t come up, on most message boards I frequent healthcare debates degrade into relentless flame wars. Before that happens, allow me to put up a primer on the topic so those of you who haven’t been following the debate can get caught up.

Warning: Long post inc, you asked for it …

The health care debate, like any complicated, politically charged topic, is really susceptible to the ill effects of conjecture, rumors and just plain bullshit. As recent town hall meetings can attest, the topic is polarized enough that special interest groups are willing to spend the time and effort of sending clueless old people and geriatrics to stir up trouble. So what is this debate about? And why should you care?

Like almost everything controversial, it all boils down to MONEY. The facts are grim; of all the developed nations in the world, the United States spends more money on health care than anything else, more than defense, education and foreign aid combined. With all this cash you’d think our system would be top notch, but it isn’t. Compared to other first-world nations we have one of the unhealthiest people--crappy infant mortality rates, lower life expectancy and an obesity epidemic quickly jockeying to the #1 position in preventable deaths.

Our system is not adept at handling out health problems either. Millions of Americans are uninsured; those who are get charged out the ass, may become bankrupt and still get denied coverage. Insurance premiums can easily be the greatest single expense of a household. If you’re a healthy young employed adult with no preexisting conditions, with some luck, bargaining and a co-pay plan maybe you can get your monthly premiums to around $250. The unluckiest of us, however, can expect to pay up to $1000 a month per person (that’s more than I pay for rent and food).

The problem with health insurance though is that it’s not something you can forego on. In your lifetime you will get sick or injured, and you will need to find a way to pay for medical procedures (which doesn’t come cheap, fixing a broken limb will run a couple thousand, surgery or cancer treatment in the tens or even hundreds of thousands). The practice of Insurance as a business model, however, isn’t conducive to getting the care you need. The entire concept of insurance is for companies to pay out as little as possible. This translates to denial of coverage based on bullshit factors, raising premiums when you get sick or dropping you entirely, and a whole slew of other dirty corner-cutting tricks companies use to gain a profit. The less care they have to pay for, the more cash their executives gets. Combine this with the fact that current government run health care plans (Medicare & Medicaid) is overbudget and underfunded means that our current health care system simply isn’t sustainable.

Obama and crew isn’t the only administration that has tackled the issue of health care reform. Many have tried and many have failed. However, with the way conditions are right now, we cannot afford to push the issue back any further, something’s going to give, it’s just a matter of when. Here’s some copypasta of what the reform plan aims for:

1. Ends Discrimination for Pre-Existing Conditions: Insurance companies will be prohibited from refusing you coverage because of your medical history.
2. Ends Exorbitant Out-of-Pocket Expenses, Deductibles or Co-Pays: Insurance companies will have to abide by yearly caps on how much they can charge for out-of-pocket expenses.
3. Ends Cost-Sharing for Preventive Care: Insurance companies must fully cover, without charge, regular checkups and tests that help you prevent illness, such as mammograms or eye and foot exams for diabetics.
4. Ends Dropping of Coverage for Seriously Ill: Insurance companies will be prohibited from dropping or watering down insurance coverage for those who become seriously ill.
5. Ends Gender Discrimination: Insurance companies will be prohibited from charging you more because of your gender.
6. Ends Annual or Lifetime Caps on Coverage: Insurance companies will be prevented from placing annual or lifetime caps on the coverage you receive.
7. Extends Coverage for Young Adults: Children would continue to be eligible for family coverage through the age of 26.
8. Guarantees Insurance Renewal: Insurance companies will be required to renew any policy as long as the policyholder pays their premium in full. Insurance companies won't be allowed to refuse renewal because someone became sick.

That’s all fine and dandy, but here’s the kicker: where’s all the money to fund these changes going to come from? The “free” healthcare systems of Canada and the UK are not actually “free”. They pay for it with higher taxes and other like means. Mention raising taxes to the average American and you’re likely to get a blank stare. The following is a brief summary of some anti-reform arguments:

- The nation has no money to pay for all of this; we will essentially be deferring the enormous bill to future generations to figure out.
- Some people hold a basic, underlying fear of the government meddling in something as important as health care. How much power will the bureaucracy have? People like to have the feeling of freedom of choice.
- Who’s to draw the line on what the government can and cannot cover? What about rationing care? What about cosmetic procedures, gastric bypass and controversial, politically charged procedures like euthanasia and abortion? People feel that if the government takes control of health care they won’t be able to effectively voice their opposition to these issues.
- Insurance companies and big pharma really don’t like this plan. They stand to lose not only billions of dollars but also the very methods of making money they’ve developed over the years. Powerful companies send powerful lobbyists to Washington to “influence” the vote.

Some arguments that are pro-reform:
- Greedy insurance fat cats have been fucking over honest Americans for far too long. The market needs regulation to insure some integrity.
- Why fear socialization? This isn’t the cold war; we already have government run schools, parks and mail. The fear of big government is a relic of a time long since past.
- The facts are clear: our current system only rewards the richest of Americans, unless we want to become sicker and deader change of some sort needs to happen.

Of course, this is barely even touching the finer points of the debate, and I’m sure I got a few facts and points incorrect. It’s best to research the issue for yourself. If you’ve managed to read this far without getting bored here’s some links to do even more reading:
Pro-Reform:
http://www.WhiteHouse.gov/realitycheck
http://www.WhiteHouse.gov/realitycheck/faq
http://www.healthreform.gov/index.html
Anti-Reform
Google up whatever Fox News and their minions have to say. Personally I can’t stand to watch douchebags like O'Reilly so you’re on your own for getting info here.

Ah Fox News.

You make my discision to be Independent that much easier.

Really though it is rediculous how much of this bullcrap that people are willing to put up with. I can barley contain my anger and disgust. They have thrown so much feeces onto the wall that most of it has stuck. And it seems that hardcore and/or superstitious conservatives seem to have framed that section of the wall as basic fact.

Speaking of which, has anyone noticed that no presidents in the last 30 or so years have had facial hair? It must be a conspiracy!

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This is, at least from what I've seen, the biggest problem with this. Americans are, for some reason, morbidly afraid of taxes. I'm not sure what's up with that, because it's assumed to be for the general good. Spending tons of tax payers money in a problematic war probably didn't do this feeling much good either - although I'm not too well versed in how the Americans feel about any issue.

Maybe a general opinion shift is needed to implement things like this at all.

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I tend to view Americans (self included, of course) as selfish. They hate anything that doesn't further their own interests with a violent passion. This includes taxes.

I just hope this debate doesn't dissolve into a flame war, like every other such debate I've seen has.

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Heck the USA is behind the times methinks, even the UK has the NHS :/ We're old fashioned and broken and yet get free health care!

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DO IT THE IRISH WAY!!!!!!1


Yeah we have a thing where children and elderly people get medical cards that allow them to get whatever treatment they need for free.

Of course there has been massive cutbacks with that medical card scheme (recession and all that) but it worked really well when it was in full effect.


Also I think Obama will get his helthcare reform (just a side note to show my love for him )

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I don't think Americans have as many qualms about paying taxes as they do on how that money is spent. Ever since Clinton, SO many special interest groups have received taxpayer money for no decent reason. *cough*ACORN*cough* Taxes were originally meant to be spent, like you said Tinker, for the general good. Not to advance some group that rallied votes for a the winning candidate.


It's far from free, people. IIRC, the average Canadian only gets approximately 40% of their paycheck. The remaining 60% goes to the government in the form of taxes. That's how they get "free" healthcare; the money they would be paying upfront is taken from them, then spread "evenly" throughout the community. AKA, socialism. Has anyone ever heard the metaphor for Socialism?
Now I don't know about you, but I know that if I had two cows, I'd like to take as much milk from them as I feel I need, then sell the rest and make a profit. Heck, I don't mind sharing with everyone else; sharing is caring :D. That said, I would like to decide for myself how my money is spent. After all, am I not the one who earned it? Can politicians really spend MY money better than I can? Please understand, I have no problem helping Joe-Schmoe who's living under a bridge get a bite to eat, or in this case, health care. I would however, like it to be MY decision and NOT my government's.

Government-run healthcare is a flawed concept from the beginning. Nowhere in the Constitution does it state that the government has a right or responsibility to provide healthcare to it's citizens. Like auto-insurance, healthcare is a PRIVATELY-owned market comprised of PRIVATELY-owned businesses. I know that most of the people that I've talked to are deathly-afraid of rationing of care if the government takes control of healthcare and I don't blame them. I know for a fact that in Canada (since you people LOVE equating what type of system we might have with their's) as rationed care severely, and in some cases, those waiting in line for surgery/x-rays/procedures have died. I strongly feel that the government has no place between me and my doctor.

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well, you could argue nothing is really "free", it's just payed for by a different way. it's free in the sense you don't have to pay anything upfront, as you said.

Exactly! Nothing is truly free. Some sales may have the slogan, "Buy one, get one free!" When in reality, you are just paying half as much for each item.

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On the contrary, I always get free food every day, and that's not from my parents....

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Care to elaborate? Someone must pay for it.

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Sure, my friends all give me the extra food they don't want. LIKE TATER TOTS.

So it wasn't free for them, but it was for me.

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The problem is that HMO’s and insurance giants aren’t looking out for your well being any more than a government bureaucrat is. Concerns about socialized medicine are legitimate, but saying that private companies are the only solution is just as ludicrous. For every horror story you hear about people dieing while waiting in line for rationed care there’s the equivalent tale of someone dieing because a company dropped the patients coverage or spiked his premiums to bankruptcy levels.

Like economic reform, being on either extreme end of the spectrum doesn’t lead to favorable results. Hardline socialism has the same amount of problems as laissez-faire capitalism does. The “solution”, like with everything else, lies somewhere in the middle. The medical market needs some measure of government regulation; it’s just a matter of how much.

I'm going to jump in on this, coming from the healthcare side of things.

I work at a clinic for indigent patients. Basically, we're there because of the downfalls of the "current" healthcare system, (if you can really call it a system) helping people who fall through the cracks. People who make too much money for government funded Medicaid (which comes out of taxpayer money, and gets SO abused) but cannot afford to buy their own health insurance. We're funded through the healthcare system that I work for, but I believe we also get money from a government grant. Those people are VERY fortunate that we're there, otherwise they'd be building up debt at a massive rate with all their medical bills, or even forgoing medical care if they don't think that it's serious enough. It's true that unfortunately, a lot of people have to decide whether they're going to eat that day, or take their medication. I see it a lot.

If we had a government-funded healthcare system (which would come out of taxes) then we wouldn't have people constantly deciding whether they're going to feed their kids or go to the doctor.

And let me tell you, those insurance companies we have now, all they care about is money. You guys have NO freaking idea how much the USA gets ripped off on costs for healthcare. Both from insurance companies and drug companies. An inhaler that may only cost a few dollars elsewhere can cost well over $100 here. Why? Because the drug companies claim that since they do the research here in the USA, they need to "recover" the costs. Yet some drug companies have been reporting record profits. There's something wrong with that picture.

I just don't understand why so many people are against federal healthcare reform. It works for most other countries, why not us? There needs to be some regulation somewhere, because what we have now, isn't working.

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I never said private companies were the only solution. Nor did I state that hard-core capitalism was the way to go. Obviously somewhere in-between is more appropriate. As is the case in most instances, i.e. a dictatorship vs. complete anarchy. All I was saying is that healthcare is a privately-owned system and the government has no place in a private company's goings-on ANYWHERE! It's just that: private. Not private-with-a-possibility-of-government-intervention. Just private. The entrepreneur who started that business had the intent to make money, correct? To earn a profit? Why then, should the government make laws saying that they can't? If someone is more burdensome than beneficial, of course the company is going to drop them. That's capitalism in action. Keep what works and ditch what doesn't. That's how companies grow and prosper.



First of all, you all are (I'm assuming) minors. If you're in the United States, technically you own nothing. Zilch. Zip. Nada. I laugh so hard every time someone under the age of 18 says they're going to 'run away'. They'd have to strip naked to walk away from their parents without being guilty of theft. The fact is, anything someone under 18 has possession of is actually in the possession of their parents. So, any money one may earn, anything one may get from a friend (ie, a tater tot) does not belong to them. If you parents wanted to, they could take your paycheck from you and cash it for themselves. That's why those tater tots you're receiving aren't free. After a bit of extrapolation, the maker of those tater tots has some common monetary ground with your parents. In other words, your parents are somehow paying for those tots, even though there may be no direct cost to them.

In the eyes of the law, minors are sort of amorphous blobs (unless they commit a crime), so the word 'free' really doesn't apply to them.

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i agree, there needs to be more government regulation. but the problem seems to be money, it seems to me americans don't like taxes, especially in bad economic times.

I ran away once, it was fun at first, but then I cracked and ran to the police department...

And I don't get a paycheck from my parents....in fact I always beg from my peers...

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Who says healthcare has to be a privately owned system? Why can’t the government have a role in it? Guess what, most people who advocate those viewpoints are those who make a living in the private medical industry or are grossly misinformed.. History has shown countless times that letting a private company do as they please leads to disastrous results. People can and will place the value of money over that of human lives. The function of government is to protect its citizens, sometimes it means from themselves. The world has already experimented with free, unregulated capitalism, the results? Not pretty: Class divide, worker exploitation, and in some cases violent revolution. What do you think the communist revolutions in Eastern Europe and the New Deal in America was all about? Take one big guess …

Also, let me reiterate something:


Make up your mind, you’re contradicting yourself. What you just described is essentially hardcore, laissez-faire capitalism. That is, business with no regulation and no accountability, where the only thing that matters is profit margins.


Do you realize what you’re saying? Yes, a cancer patient is more of a burden on an insurance company’s bottom line than a fit young adult. They would like nothing more than to drop the patient and let him fend for himself (and in some occasions they do). Yes it’s capitalism in action, but is also very cruel and inhumane. Like with economic reform from the great depression era, government regulation is put into place to make sure that you, the end-user, doesn’t get fucked over so an executive can line his pockets. I’d place the value of human lives and the lowering of suffering over profits and ideology any day. Companies can grow and prosper while being humane about it.

Unlike auto insurance or other products, you need health coverage. You probably will end up using it, and without it, you can potentially die. You’ve got to either be a rich bastard or living in a cave if you think the current private medical insurance system is anywhere near fine. As Crouton can attest, anyone who’s had to deal with insurance companies knows that the way they’re operating now is very detrimental to all of us

Edit: to address one of your earlier posts:

Hate to sound arrogant, but do you even know what insurance is and how it works? Do you pay your own premiums and know what your money is doing? I do, and it doesn’t feel good. That cow metaphor for socialism doesn’t make any sense when dealing with medical care. Unless you’re keen on deliberately injuring yourself, you don’t decide when to take the “milk from the cows” or even how much. The way the system works, you already are paying for someone else’s care, like it or not. Instead of a politician deciding where your money is spent, it’s a company. It’s still NOT your decision. Since medical coverage is basically essential, your only real decision is to decide if you want to risk not being insured.

In a nutshell, Insurance is basically risk management for low frequency-high impact situations. We ‘insure’ ourselves against events that, while unlikely to occur, are extremely devastating when they do. Medical procedures run up in the tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars. Most of us do not have that kind of cash laying around, so we hire companies to pay these potential bills in exchange for a much more manageable fee (premiums). Think about that for a bit. If you’re not utilizing your coverage, what exactly is your money doing? It’s (supposedly) being used to pay for procedures of people who need it. While the leftovers go towards the insurance companies overhead and profits. Companies know that the less they have to spend on covering peoples bills, the more of your fee can be used for direct profit. This equates to a whole laundry list of dirty tactics that I already spelled out in a previous post. I would actually prefer a pure socialist system where at least I know the majority of my fees are being spent on someone’s actual care, instead of a new yacht for some rich bastard.

If Government-run healthcare is a flawed concept from the beginning, so is completely privatized health care. As I said numerous times, there needs to be equilibrium between the two.