Re: Random conversations about Games
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CatMuto wrote:
Quote:
Well...the first impression you have of Wakka is him taking Tidus, a complete stranger into his home and looking out for him as a survivor of (effectively) a natural disaster.
I was more referring to Tidus being unlikeable from the get-go. It takes close to, eh, let's say 30 to 45 minutes until we even meet Wakka. And sure, Wakka comes across as being open-hearted at first (almost too much, maybe) but his personality taking practically a 180 turn is so weird, it's hard to forget. It's like if you've spent hours playing a protagonist as something and then suddenly find out he's... I dunno, a chick. Or a space mutant.
And as sumguy says, sudden changes in personality can leave bigger impacts and make it easy to change your opinion on a character immediately.
C-A
Ok...but you were originally arguing that First impressions are really difficult to change to the point that the character is just unlikeable forever in a discussion about Wakka, not Tidus.
Also now you are arguing the opposite that big contrasting personality elements can make change of opinion easy?
So they both cancel out so that it's normal for people to change their first impressions?
Like...lets just disagree, I think our logic is beyond faulty at this point.
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Re: Random conversations about Games
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CatMuto wrote:
I'm basically saying a person's opinion on another person can alter at the drop of a hat and do so drastically.
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So you didn't like Wakka at first and then liked him less when he was revealed to be racist and because you didn't like him at your first impression you didn't change your opinion of him as he underwent character development because the damage was already done?
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https://youtu.be/E2kmH40nNPw?t=4m16s
This is one of the scenes I meant. Maybe I read too far into it, but knowing how Wakka feels about his brother and still has hope, I just can't help but hate Lulu in this scene. She just crushes Wakka into the ground and doesn't let up, and with how hateful she is, it's just such an awkward scene.
Then again, Kilika (sorry Pierre, it had been a while since I played the game), has just a bunch of cutscenes with people being hateful to each other just to be hateful. Dona and the Goers fall into this too. I understand the need for rivals I guess for Yuna and Wakka, but just going up to others, bullying, saying they suck and threatening to hurt them, is not my idea of a rival. It's being a jerk.
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CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)
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dullahan1 wrote:
@Cat:
https://youtu.be/E2kmH40nNPw?t=4m16s
This is one of the scenes I meant. Maybe I read too far into it, but knowing how Wakka feels about his brother and still has hope, I just can't help but hate Lulu in this scene. She just crushes Wakka into the ground and doesn't let up, and with how hateful she is, it's just such an awkward scene.
https://youtu.be/E2kmH40nNPw?t=4m16s
This is one of the scenes I meant. Maybe I read too far into it, but knowing how Wakka feels about his brother and still has hope, I just can't help but hate Lulu in this scene. She just crushes Wakka into the ground and doesn't let up, and with how hateful she is, it's just such an awkward scene.
That sounds more like a bad attempt at Expospeak.
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sumguy28 wrote:
dullahan1 wrote:
@Cat:
https://youtu.be/E2kmH40nNPw?t=4m16s
This is one of the scenes I meant. Maybe I read too far into it, but knowing how Wakka feels about his brother and still has hope, I just can't help but hate Lulu in this scene. She just crushes Wakka into the ground and doesn't let up, and with how hateful she is, it's just such an awkward scene.
https://youtu.be/E2kmH40nNPw?t=4m16s
This is one of the scenes I meant. Maybe I read too far into it, but knowing how Wakka feels about his brother and still has hope, I just can't help but hate Lulu in this scene. She just crushes Wakka into the ground and doesn't let up, and with how hateful she is, it's just such an awkward scene.
That sounds more like a bad attempt at Expospeak.
Nah it's not quite as such, it's not the first time we hear of Wakka's brother or his death OR Wakka's possible attempt to replace Chappu with Tidus. They are mentioned earlier. The only new information is really this hair-brained theory of Wakka's.
Though no I agree with you Dullahan, that seemed especially harsh on Lulu's part. Sure it was obvious wishful thinking on Wakka's behalf but the put-down was brutal. There was added jibes at both Tidus and Yuna at the end as well. I'd expect Yuna to say something but I guess she probably just wanted to maintain a happy family as best she could and stay out of it.
Then again didn't Lulu have two failed pilgrimages beforehand? I think she had fair reason to be very bitter towards most people, especially those who lost someone (though it doesn't really excuse her). In a way she was probably grieving for Chappu too by stating no one could take his place. That or she's actively trying to refrain from thinking about him and had to shut Wakka up.
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Can I just say, it's not until after the Bevelle sequence that I finally like all the playable characters. Just hate that it's like 2/3s in the game. Granted, a lot of the dislike does come from Lulu and Wakka and how they are, and Yuna's submissiveness and tendencies to always get kidnapped. I include Tidus a bit because his dad issues seem a bit farfetched, but as far as his personality goes, it doesn't bug me like others. I'll take it over the bland Squall any day.
Honestly, if I go for favorite protagonist, even though FFIV is my favorite, I'd go with Zidane, because he's a fun character. Granted, I'm sure if he was voiced, people would probably find him even more obnoxious than Tidus.
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CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)
I feel the same
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I suppose for me the whole thing about how "the most cowardly who take a stand are the bravest of us all" applies for me here.
Its easy for Tidus (who has no idea of the culture) Lulu (who is just disillusioned with everything) and Yuna (who knows first hand the Church is deeply wrong in their opinion of Al Bhed) to turn against the Church.
Wakka is deeply entrenched in the system and has believed it for all his life. The racism is a very strong social norm as a result of that culture rather than just something innate to Wakka and yet he still is able to break free.
It just makes him more admirable to me in considering how great a challenge it was for him.
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Pierre wrote:
CatMuto wrote:
I'm basically saying a person's opinion on another person can alter at the drop of a hat and do so drastically.
C-A
C-A
So you didn't like Wakka at first and then liked him less when he was revealed to be racist and because you didn't like him at your first impression you didn't change your opinion of him as he underwent character development because the damage was already done?
No. My first impression was "Fry? What are you doing here?", then finding him an okay guy who was maybe a little too warmhearted. His brother issue was meh for me. Then he showed his racist blind-religion-follower side and I hated him. Also, his whining when we fight Seymour (ZomG Spoiler!) was quite annoying.
Quote:
This is one of the scenes I meant. Maybe I read too far into it, but knowing how Wakka feels about his brother and still has hope, I just can't help but hate Lulu in this scene. She just crushes Wakka into the ground and doesn't let up, and with how hateful she is, it's just such an awkward scene.
Oh yeah, I was thinking maybe it was that one. I dunno, I mean, I can sort of understand Lulu doing that. Sure, Wakka lost his brother - but she lost her boyfriend, too. She pretty much moved on and accepted his death. Hearing Wakka go on about a dumb fantasy that Sin doesn't kill people, he just "transports them into another world" sounds like the worst kind of denial. He is dead. Dead. Very, very dead. Cadaveriffic. It may come across as mean, but she's basically telling him to accept reality and not run away from it.
Quote:
I'd expect Yuna to say something but I guess she probably just wanted to maintain a happy family as best she could and stay out of it.
Yuna has the spine of a limp noodle, of course she's not gonna say anything. You know, for someone who is supposedly such a strong person...
Quote:
Can I just say, it's not until after the Bevelle sequence that I finally like all the playable characters.
It's a decent scene (though revelations are... not that good, they're obvious) but it's instantly destroyed for me by... THAT POND SCENE ARGH!!
Quote:
Honestly, if I go for favorite protagonist, even though FFIV is my favorite, I'd go with Zidane, because he's a fun character. Granted, I'm sure if he was voiced, people would probably find him even more obnoxious than Tidus.
Well, Zidane is voiced in Dissidia and he isn't too annoying. A bit upbeat and jumpy but... he's a monkey. He's okay.
Quote:
Lulu (who is just disillusioned with everything)
Lulu never struck me as being disillusioned about the religion. She certainly dislikes parts of it, but then I think most people don't like one part of the religion - namely the return of Sin. Look at her dialogue before fighting Yunalesca, she sounds just as horrified and shocked as Wakka at the idea that Sin won't disappear, no matter how true to the religion everyone sticks. That it's all a sham.
Lulu is cynical, certainly. Definitely has reasons for it. But not disillusioned.
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CatMuto wrote:
It's a decent scene (though revelations are... not that good, they're obvious) but it's instantly destroyed for me by... THAT POND SCENE ARGH!!
Pond scene? What pond scene? There's no ten-minute long pond scene about an awkward romance. None at all. Oceania is at war with Eastasia.
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And Cat, I think if Lulu had moved on at that point in time, she wouldn't have been so bitter to others. Her lashing out, to me, is her trying to justify to herself that she thinks she's moved on when she really hasn't. Wakka hasn't either, but both of them took very different approaches.
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CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)
I feel the same
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I found letters from Doctor Cosmo as a child that were sent to his dad. In them, he mentioned how he never sees his dad, as his dad is always busy. And he even mentions that he and his mom are always left alone and his mom is only happy when she goes to see her "friends", and the few times his dad is home, all his parents do is fight.
Reading that, I'm just shocked they snuck something like this in Pokemon, a neglectful father, a mother having affairs, and his parents becoming estranged. Granted, I guess I shouldn't be surprised as they've snuck dark subjects in Pokemon before, but wow. This stuff is easy to miss if you don't check everywhere, but I thought it was neat. Giving a history on Professor Cosmo, who originally had nothing unique about him other than being obsessed with meteorites. I can't express how much I love world building like this in games.
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CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)
I feel the same
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You know, instead of giving a (hidden) background to mostly pointless NPCs like this Cosmo guy, how about they flesh out the villains? Preferably give reasons why they are trying to resurrect Gods to take care of things other than, "World is evil, we must 'cleanse' it".
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In the context of NPCs though, I'd say Cosmo has about as much interaction and significance in the plot as Bill did in RBY.
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CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)
I feel the same
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In the context of NPCs though, I'd say Cosmo has about as much interaction and significance in the plot as Bill did in RBY.
And I like this stuff in the sense it fleshes out the world. Akin to the Mew diaries in Cinnibar. It not only gives you details about things that went on, but it also makes the areas you explore have more detail, describing why it's become so dilapidated instead of just having it that way just because. New areas are nice to explore, but when they add some world building on top of it, it's nice. Like, it's cool to explore an abandoned boat that is used now purely for tourism, but it's more interesting to know why it was abandoned and the conflicts and history that was behind it all.
It's something that I find weird with Pokemon. The plots are usually too simple, but for some reason, they're very good at the whole world building aspect, and fleshing out their world. I honestly find they do the latter better than some other series that I play. I'd much rather explore and be rewarded with an interesting trinket of knowledge about the world instead of having to read lines and lines of dialogue about it. When I feel rewarded, I'm more invested. When it's just a read, I lose interest. While I haven't played FFXIII, I've heard of the datalog, and to be honest, to me, that's a VERY bad way to do world building.
EDIT: @dimintio: Yeah... it's not smart to respond to something RIGHT when you wake up with a terrible headache... >_<
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CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)
I feel the same
Last edited by dullahan1 on Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Quote:
He's the guy that Team Aqua/Magma hold up to get the meteorite
Oh, uh, yeah, I ... uh, totally remember now...
Quote:
but also Wattson as well.
Who's Wattson?
Quote:
as Bill did in RBY.
Who the heck is Bill? Wait, I think I dimly remember that guy...
Quote:
Hmm some people seem real mad about the Nintendo Digital Event and I'm not really sure why...
If you're referring overall to E3, I dunno what to think of the emphasis on VR... I mean, the idea is kinda cool. But I'm also of the idea that you should keep a separation between videogames and reality. Call me a pessimist, but if VR comes out and works, someone will run amok and people will blame the VR because they are idiots.
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Pierre wrote:
Hmm some people seem real mad about the Nintendo Digital Event and I'm not really sure why...
Something about a Metroid spinoff that doesn't even include Samus. Or Metroids.
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@Pierre: I think to answer your question, people are disappointed because all of the big titles they announced were already announced prior or leaked before the digital event. As for other games, like Metroid and Zelda, they're more like spin-off titles that aren't making the fans too happy I guess.
Personally, I'm not angry about the conference, I didn't expect much going in because they've already announced what they're doing for the year prior. To me, it was more an update as to how their games are doing, so I went in with low expectations. Considering all the things they're working on, I'm expecting something much bigger next year.
That said, out of the big 3, in my opinion, Sony clearly blew everyone out of the water. As for XBox and their backwards compatibility, I really don't see the hype. Nintendo already does it and any game Microsoft has worth playing, at least for me, is on the 360, so there's no point in the XBox One, especially since the 360 library will be severely limited.
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CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)
I feel the same
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Eh, I thought the stuff was ok at least.
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Quote:
Cat, I'm beginning to wonder if you paid any attention to any named NPCs. Bill is the guy who turned into a Pokemon and began the whole Pokemon storage system. Wattson is the electric gym leader and creator of anything with the name Mauville in Ruby and Sapphire. Compared to the NPCs that talk about how their Pokemon evolved or whatnot, they're KINDA important in their respective games.
They're NPCs, so no, I don't care. And now I remember Wattson (asshole requires several attempts because of his stupid Manectike or whatever) but Bill I still kind of draw a blank. I mean, I recall the storage system but he turned into a Pokémon? What? Do we ever meet him?
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My favorite kinds of NPCs are those who give out sidequests, but instead of just being a simple, boring fetch quest, the sidequest usually ends up building on the lore of the world or relationships between characters that deepen the sense of immersion in the game world.
As for Bill, you meet him on Route 25. He fused with a Pokemon, you use his machine to unfuse him, and he gives you the S.S. Anne ticket to board the boat in Vermillion.
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CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)
I feel the same
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Look at Lightning Returns - the sidequests (and some of the main quests) are all revolving around the backstory of various NPCs. And they all tell me their lifestory on how things have gone for them the past 500 years since chaos took over the world and people stopped aging: I don't find it interesting. Maybe the stories would be interesting, if the NPCs sounded better. This isn't an issue of English Dub VS Original Japanese, it's part of the world - these people have been ageless but not immortal for the last 500 years. They've seen their friends or family die from injuries or illness, whatever they do they don't age and their world is slowly growing smaller with chaos consuming.
Even if they had goals originally, they either fulfilled them by now or gave up because they are bored. All of the NPCs sound horribly bored and lethargic, which makes sense in terms of what's going on. But it just fails horribly in making me somehow give a damn having to listen to them for several minutes retell me their story: a girl who remains in a childish body with an adult mind and was never seen as an adult by the person she loved and he died, a journalist who wrote stories and that led to a family being killed and he gave up his job in response, a man who is the one whose family was killed and has forgotten it and can either choose to enact revenge again or decide to let it be, someone who is poor and is trying desperately to find a rare cure for her father, a man whose girlfriend left him and he's looking for her only to learn that she somehow kept aging and has long since died...
I mean, those stories CAN and technically SHOULD be interesting.
But the way the lines are delivered, I just can't listen to this droning on about their life for so long. Just shut up and give me the parameter increases for doing this quest. Thankfully, you can skip the dialogue scenes, so you don't actually have to listen to all these people.
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But yeah, in your words, there will still always be those "moving furniture" NPCs. Those out there who will just state the obvious and say throwaway one liners. I don't care for those either. As hilarious as your example is, I too don't care about Joe Schmoe's blowdryer left on.
I guess to give a more literal example of the kind of world building I like, I'll use Xenoblade as an example. In the game, there is a sentient ancient race within the game. By doing a series a sidequests, you learn why they perform the customs they do, why their racism towards others exist, how their existence came to be, and this all ties in to the main villain's motivation and goes into much further detail about why the villain does what he does. Much moreso than the main story will ever tell you.
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CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)
I feel the same
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Tales of Symphonia has the revelation that the Hero Mithos = Ygdrasill as part of a scene in an area. It not only admits that, but it also reveals a reason why the half elves in Heimdall hate Mithos so much that his name is forbidden to be mentioned. In fact, the racism towards half-elves from both humans and elves is the central theme of the game. They don't actually go into depth WHY elves and humans hate elves, though several hints or reasons are dropped throughout the game...
Elves and half-elves age much slower, so their human family or friends will fear or hate them because they seem so old next to them.
Half-Elves that are raised among humans are, in the elves' eyes, dangerous and abuse their power because they weren't brought up properly by elves and the society, knowledge and history of elves.
On both sides, the Desians are made up of half-elves and they keep appearing to farm humans and use them for living breeding grounds for emotionless, sapient stones. So humans hate them, too.
Similarly, the idea that half-elves are just plain an ill omen.
Basically, everyone hates half-elves out of a number of reasons which could be fixed, but not really, so... Ygdrasill deciding to turn everyone into those sapient stones to rid the world of said racism - which was his sister's last wish - kind of makes sense, but at the same time it's more like postponing a problem, rather than eradicating it.
Though if we look at Phantasia and not wonder if Namco has planned any retconning, Refill and Genius' journey to try to get half-elves accepted is not successful or not succesful enough, because 4000 years later, Half-Elves are once again hated by both sides, not allowed to enter Heimdall, though in 4352 in the Aselian Calender, HUMANS are allowed into Heimdall without special royal permission. Half-elves are still not allowed, but you see some change happening.
Wait, I think I forgot what my original point was...
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All them important lore details hidden away in the codex
I really liked Xenoblades take on NPCs. By doing quests for them you help them build a community and you get to watch their relationships grow and you can see the lives of others touched by your actions.
Its like you are developing other people's social links kinda...
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Pierre wrote:
All them important lore details hidden away in the codex
What important lore details? I'm pretty sure you're talking about FF XIII and I checked the datalog before - nothing in there is of any lore important to the game that it actually makes a difference. Knowing what the reason is for Atomos to be rolling around Pulse? Doesn't matter. Everything about the important lore in FF XIII - Cie'th, l'Cie, Fal'Cie, Sanctum, PSICOM, the villains and such - all explained in the game itself.
What lore did you not know or understand in XIII that you'd even need to know it to proceed, play and understand the game and its story?
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CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
All them important lore details hidden away in the codex
What important lore details? I'm pretty sure you're talking about FF XIII and I checked the datalog before - nothing in there is of any lore important to the game that it actually makes a difference. Knowing what the reason is for Atomos to be rolling around Pulse? Doesn't matter. Everything about the important lore in FF XIII - Cie'th, l'Cie, Fal'Cie, Sanctum, PSICOM, the villains and such - all explained in the game itself.
What lore did you not know or understand in XIII that you'd even need to know it to proceed, play and understand the game and its story?
C-A
Most things to do with Cid, anything to do with the greater Gods of XIII, the Cavalry, Jihls Nabaat's role in anything (other than being vaguely evil in some unexplained way), the Politics of the world.
But this line of questioning WOULD start a huge argument that would be worthy of warnings so lets drop it here.
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Re: Random conversations about Games
Gender: Female
Rank: Ace Attorney
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:23 pm
Posts: 9918
On a different note, I decided to play Pokémon Y again in Japanese. It'll be fun. I am SO glad that they finally decided to give an option to change the languages, I hated how I had German when I bought the games since I mostly play my games in English. And I picked Japanese and nice thing is, since this game is made for all possible age groups, I was also asked if I want to play in Japanese with just Hiragana and Katakana or if I want to have Kanji be used, too.
I'm decent-ish with Kanji but I opted for just hiragana and katakana.
Let's see how the lines were changed or anything.
C-A
Re: Random conversations about Games
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Spoiler: DR Chapter 1
Re: Random conversations about Games
Wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey...
Gender: Male
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I enjoyed the game for what it was, but the writer ain't exactly Agatha Christie. However, as you suspected, the first case is the worst as far as making the killer blatantly obvious goes. Much like The First Turnabout and Turnabout Sisters.
Spoiler: Chapter 1
As for mean vs. easy difficulty, all it really does is add more potential wrong answers to the mix. I think Easy narrows it down to the only correct answer.
Re: Random conversations about Games
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Spoiler: DR Chapter 1
Trust me, the cases (or trials) do NOT get better later on. Seriously. Halfway through the game, Chapter 3, and I just wanted to explode into the trial and yell at everyone for being such giant idiots for not realizing the obviousnesses of obviousness regarding who the killer was. Or even realizing who the murderer in Chapter 4 was as soon as I saw the corpse. Or the deal with the corpse in Chapter 5... Though I have to say the worst is the final trial because it DRAGS. It drags and drags and drags. (I was so exhausted and angry after that trial and finishing the game I couldn't even remember for a second WHAT game I was playing)
Spoiler: Danganronpa Chapter 3
Quote:
Spoiler: Chapter 1
Is a TINY bit easier to not figure out in Japanese because the way the name of the character itself is written with Kanji and not... well... romanji.
C-A
Re: Random conversations about Games
1000% Knight
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Spoiler: DR Chapter 1
preach
TheDoctor wrote:
The first game does get a little bit better later on, but the second game is where they actually make it a little bit harder to figure out whodunit.
I'd say it's about twice as hard. Of course, zero times two is still zero.
When I played DR, my rule was that I wasn't allowed to step foot outside the crime scene until I knew the murderer's identity. I got every single one right, but... it made it so it wasn't as obnoxiously easy.
(And of course, no starting the trial until I've figured out everything that happened in the crime)
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Re: Random conversations about Games
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Bad Player wrote:
When I played DR, my rule was that I wasn't allowed to step foot outside the crime scene until I knew the murderer's identity. I got every single one right, but... it made it so it wasn't as obnoxiously easy.
(And of course, no starting the trial until I've figured out everything that happened in the crime)
(And of course, no starting the trial until I've figured out everything that happened in the crime)
What does it say about a murder mystery game if you can figure out the killer's identity by looking at the corpse - which isn't even in the same room as you?
I mean, I think the thing with DR is that the idea is nice... but the execution is terrible. The idea of kids killing each other, it's like Battle Royale all over and I rather liked that one. Making it a mystery, okay. But it's just so painstakingly easy to solve. I don't know, I don't think this game was intended for children like Pokémon games tend to be, so they honestly have no excuse in making the lines cheesy or the mysteries easy to figure out.
Heck, for something intended for older teens and adults, I don't even expect the first trial to be easy.
Oh why didn't they follow through with the beta version Distrust...?
C-A
Re: Random conversations about Games
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Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:13 pm
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I don't want to completely shit on the game, though. I do like the music a lot and I start to like the cast a little more as more people die and it gets less crowded
Spoiler: DR Chapter 2
Also, I think it's unbelievably stupid how if the "blackened" gets away, everybody else dies. That's an extremely cheap way of raising the stakes
Like, if an Average Joe was in the school, I can see him thinking "yeah, maybe I can get away with a murder. I'm gonna get killed if I don't take action so better him than me."
I don't see an Average Joe thinking, "I'm going to kill someone, get away with murder, and then kill EVERYONE as a result."
Like, if you get away with murder, how about the Blackened just graduates and the class kills the falsely accused?
Re: Random conversations about Games
Wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey...
Gender: Male
Rank: Prosecutor
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:05 pm
Posts: 926
That said, your idea for the killer to get away and for the falsely accused to be executed in their stead would be a great way of raising the stakes.
Re: Random conversations about Games
1000% Knight
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Spoiler: DR Chapter 2
Spoiler: DR-2
Good job solving case 2!
Now for the real test: finding the glaring plot hole in that case.
Good luck!
Credit to Evolina for the sig+avatar!
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