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Lux-Pain
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Author:  Shion [ Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:53 am ]
Post subject:  Lux-Pain
Well, Lux-Pain came out today for the DS and I was wondering if anyone else has played through it yet. The game is like Phoenix Wright meets Trauma Center as in you investigate a town to discover who is behind a series of sucides/murders.

In order for you to get more information you use a device that lets you zero in on what a person is hiding and you have to attack a glowing yellow worm that is in the person and defeat it in order the view what they are thinking. It really is weird and hard to explain unless you played it that is why I used a Trauma Center reference. :sadshoe:

So far the game is really nice although it would be better if you could save during the middle of your investigation I screwed around too much had to start back at the last save because I didn't question a person on time. It is definitely better then Jake Hunter!

Also the game comes with a really nice art book with it even though it is small the artwork is beautiful and in color, also for some reason Atsuki Saijo reminds me of the main protagonist from Persona 4.
Author:  Celestina [ Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
Wow I hadn't heard of that game. Just one more thing to ask for for my 17th birthday!
Author:  Judgemaster64 [ Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
Mine some where in the mail. Also there already a topic for this.
Author:  Cinder::Justice [ Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
I am so getting this game.
Author:  gyakutensaibanfan :) [ Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
It came out here today I think so I will be getting it, it is on my to buy list ever since I heard about it.
Author:  Watatata~! [ Sat Mar 28, 2009 11:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
I changed my mind on getting this game on how hearing badly translated it was. (Didn't do the TWEWY-approach for one thing: I heard it Americanized the setting and whatnot)
Author:  Caelestis [ Sat Mar 28, 2009 11:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
I was going to pre-order the game, but decided to wait till I saw reviews. Knowing me, though, I'll probably still get the game. I've been getting random adventure DS games lately just to stave off my thirst for Kenji :payne:

Eh, I don't mind Americanized settings to a certain point. Yeah, it's highly annoying sometimes (*cough*there's an old japanese-esque town with spirit channelers two hours away from los angelas?*cough*), but it can't be as bad as some of the dubs of children anime (*cough*4Kids*cough*). So I'm not that worried. But, I want to see what others think, first.

Man, I really have a problem with coughing. ugh, I hate colds... :edgy:
Author:  Bad Player [ Sun Mar 29, 2009 1:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
Same for me, but the reviews are making me think I'm not going to get it...


(I still need to decide between Flower, Sun, and Rain and Avalon Code, but at least it makes my decision a little easier...)
Author:  gyakutensaibanfan :) [ Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
Got it yesterday.. one thing that is annoying is that what the characters say out loud and what comes up on the screen as text can be different sometimes, I just don't understand how the studio could have let that happen, couldn't they have just changed the text to match what they were saying? Also agree with the OP about lack of save points (unless there is actually a way to save at will, if there is one then, OK, I'm stupid!).
Author:  DeMatador [ Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
Bad Player wrote:
Same for me, but the reviews are making me think I'm not going to get it...


(I still need to decide between Flower, Sun, and Rain and Avalon Code, but at least it makes my decision a little easier...)


Avalon Code... it's... too "hurried" playing. It needs technical explaining, you must figure most of the game's system (not plot, nothing plot-related) by yourself. For example, I just learned the Special Move, and nobody explained me how to do it :\
Author:  Atsime [ Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
Ah Lux-Pain, it came off as a very interesting game when I saw some previews of it on a certain game site.

The characters are pretty interesting, but the opening of this game was incredibly confusing. And when you get the chance to 'scratch,' I was wondering if anyone would be able to understand how to kill the little buggers in there. It took me some time to understand the controls, but after that things went smoothly.

Until I read the text and heard the conflicting voices. The text is filled with contradictions (heh, still got that AA spirit) and typos, and the voices that don't match the text makes it even more confusing to know what they're even talking about.

On a positive note, the graphics and music are beautiful. I watched the Opening scene many times because of how interesting it was! It also has opportunities for you to choose how the hero reacts to questions other characters ask, so it has a visual novel-esque feeling more than an action game.

Spoiler: Actual Lux-Pain Spoilers
The Silent/Original battles were torture, 'nuff said. But it gives you a nice feeling when you kill them, and the stories behind some of them were sorta sad. Like the first Original battle, I feel so sad when I think of that one girl.

Edit: I heard there's multiple endings for this game. I think I got the 'Good Ending' on my first try since I unlocked both Gallery(except there's one picture missing. asdfghjkl;) and Sounds. Are there any different endings besides Atsuki leaving town with regret?


In the end, good game, but it needs major improvements in translating and matching voices with words, and tutorials would be nice, especially for those of us who don't know how to 'scratch up stuff'. xD;

*Also, don't play this game for 9-12 hours, you'll get a freakish paranoid feeling. D:
Or maybe that's just me..
Author:  jamie gumshoe [ Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
I just beat it today ( i didn't get the good ending though owell..) it's alot fun but seriously depressing specially towards the end it was probally one of the sadest games I every played i wish you guys good luck

oh love the cast there all so unique plus i got some really good pairings out of this including one pairing thats going in my top favorites ryo x atsuki seriously there hot lovers :edgy: anybody else have pairings in this game yet since nothing is really canon
Author:  SpicersApple [ Sun Apr 19, 2009 6:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
I really like ryo x atsuki too! :D I'm actually writing a story (actually a few) about them.. Better hurry and type what I have so far!

I think Yui and Mako is cannon, because when I read Yui's mind she said she was
Spoiler:
going to marry her but Mako died
and I also think Honoka x Aoi is somewhat cannon because of a few scenes I saw between them (Wow, actual yuri pairings!). My favorite pairs are Ryo x Atsuki, and I think Yuzi x Shinji is cute.. but I might like more pairings as I play longer (only on Day 15 so far @_@)
Author:  Holy Hell [ Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
This game has horrid localization and translation
Author:  Aura [ Sun Apr 19, 2009 10:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
I got the game because the art reminded me of Phoenix Wright >_>

I love the art, the story is interesting, but the translation is horrible. It's not a bad game. I mean, it's not GREAT, but it's not bad.

You can save during investigations though. Just press start.
Author:  jamie gumshoe [ Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
SpicersApple wrote:
I really like ryo x atsuki too! :D I'm actually writing a story (actually a few) about them.. Better hurry and type what I have so far!

I think Yui and Mako is cannon, because when I read Yui's mind she said she was
Spoiler:
going to marry her but Mako died
and I also think Honoka x Aoi is somewhat cannon because of a few scenes I saw between them (Wow, actual yuri pairings!). My favorite pairs are Ryo x Atsuki, and I think Yuzi x Shinji is cute.. but I might like more pairings as I play longer (only on Day 15 so far @_@)


sweet please send my the story once your done i would love to read it i played it again and got the good ending so now i have all my definent couples i can't decide between kiryuxryo and atsukixryo oh the choices oh did you know that the guy with the hat and goatee likes akiras dad like very openly i almost peed my pants when i got the bonus cut scene >v<
Author:  SpicersApple [ Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
How do you want me to send my story? Just paste it in a PM? (also, added you to my friends :3)

OMG Shunichi?! LOL! Was it the scene about the ringtone? XD Akira telling him to say his 'feelings' to Akira's dad without realising what he meant XD
Also, how do you beat it so fast? I just started another game (I beat it a few days ago) I saw Shunichi hanging outside the cake shop, staring at Akira's dad and he was giggling and ran off :DDD

AAHGH, Kiryu >< I don't like him.. stealin my ryo >] (How do you know if you get the good ending?)

EDIT: Another canon pairing!~
Spoiler:
Near the end of the game, Aoi confesses that she loved Reiji.. It might also have been reciprocated to an extent.
But my question is how can you love someone if you yell at them all the time??
Author:  Wrestler Hatman [ Thu Apr 23, 2009 1:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
Holy Hell wrote:
This game has horrid localization and translation

Welp, looks like I ain't getting it.
Author:  Hoa Dao [ Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
... BL pairings? XD;; I thought that thread I read in GameFAQs was a joke (something about going on a date with Lt. Tanaka...) I had a feeling Lux-Pain is part dating-sim because I got a bonus scene with Nami. ^^;

Actually, thinking about it, you're building relationships with other people, which doesn't necessarily mean dating, right? XD Hanging out is fine....

But, ah, seriously, how serious is this Ryo x Atsuki thing? XD My Atsuki very friendly with Ryo, at the moment, hu hu....

~~

The English is horrible, but not unintelligible. =X I'll just roll with what they're saying and correct them in my mind. Other than that, I am enjoying this game. :3 Just took a SILENT from Yamato. I've read that the developers (Killaware and Marvelous) themselves translated the game, not Ignition which published the game in America. o-O; While that doesn't excuse them for not proofreading, it at least explains a lot.
Author:  Mina Von [ Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
You can get scenes where you go on 'dates' with some of the characters. When I beat the game I unlocked a 'date' with Nami scene.

I reeeeally loved this game, though I got the same ending that was mentioned earlier. There's a couple stuff that was mentioned here as well that I missed, and I really love Atsuki x Akira xDD

"Atsuki! I'm going to bake lots of cakes so you better try all of them, ok?!"

he said that to me xD
Author:  Hoa Dao [ Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
PFFFFTT I'm totally laughing XD;; I'm glad they brought this over, so I can laugh at the bonus scenes XD;;;
Author:  Aura [ Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
Anyone have favorite characters? Mine's Ryo Unami <3

I haven't finished the game yet though. I kinda got bored but I plan on going back to it.

There's BL in this game? o_o

I remember a part where one of the characters said something about having 'feelings' for Akira's dad and getting all flustered, but that's about it. xD

I wish it was easier to understand what people were talking about in that game. :payne:
Author:  Hoa Dao [ Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
Haha, not BL necessarily, I think, though I'm actually kind of wondering about what exactly gives some of the above posters' the impression that Atsuki can actually be "paired" off with someone.... Those bonus scenes in the archives don't have anything to do with the game. XD;; I only have Nami Part 1, which is a pseudo-date (she's just following him around or dragging him to places....)

I'm not far yet, and I won't be playing it again until this weekend. OTL I'm curious how Akira's dad looks .... Atsuki promised to visit his bakery :'D
Author:  Mina Von [ Tue May 05, 2009 3:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
ahh, the guy with feelings for Akira's dad? I think that was actually just a misunderstanding, but in fact he is gay. just not necessarily into Akira's dad. his name's.. Inugami? I think? the guy at Deep Sea.

yeah, i went and talked to him one day and he asked me if I had a girlfriend, I told him no (it wasn't really a yes or no response, but I can't remember exactly what it said).

He got surprised and a little embarassed, but then offered to listen if Atsuki had anything he might want to talk about (i.e. probably something to do with 'coming to terms' with homosexuality or something. At least, that's how I view it.)

I think it's really just trying to be a non-discriminating game in terms of sexuality.
Author:  jamie gumshoe [ Thu May 07, 2009 11:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
Mina Von wrote:
ahh, the guy with feelings for Akira's dad? I think that was actually just a misunderstanding, but in fact he is gay. just not necessarily into Akira's dad. his name's.. Inugami? I think? the guy at Deep Sea.

yeah, i went and talked to him one day and he asked me if I had a girlfriend, I told him no (it wasn't really a yes or no response, but I can't remember exactly what it said).

He got surprised and a little embarassed, but then offered to listen if Atsuki had anything he might want to talk about (i.e. probably something to do with 'coming to terms' with homosexuality or something. At least, that's how I view it.)

I think it's really just trying to be a non-discriminating game in terms of sexuality.
see that's what i thought to till i found out he has a thing for akira's dad in the bonus scene which they actually come out and say it they don't even try to hint it that scene was worth the whole game right there >v<
Author:  Pigeon_Maiden [ Sat May 16, 2009 5:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
XD I just finished the game two days ago. It was alright, but it seems that I didn't get a certain ending I wanted. And I don't think I unlocked everything, so I'll have to play through it again. DX

It sucks that there's no walkthrough for this game, so it's hard to pick and choose to get the good ending, but oh well. ^^'

The story is okay, a bit too emo for my taste, but what kept me going were the characters. I find the characters very fun (though Shinji and Mika annoy me quite a bit blegh). The voice acting is decent too.

I'm sure everyone has already said this, but the translations are HORRIBLE. Misspellings everywhere, weird diction, AGH. Oh well. Seeing as this game was made by a small company (well, I've never heard of it), I guess they can pass a little. Oh yeah, and the voice dialogue not matching the written dialogue bothers me too.

The thing that makes my inner fangirl giggle is the countless amounts of implied shounen-ai in the game. XD It's cute.

Overall it's fun to play through, it could be better, but eh. ^^'
Author:  SerialVER [ Sat May 16, 2009 9:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
The localization is shocking, is why I played it to start with for the shock factor. When you get over that though, it is a pretty ok adventure-like game but I did play it early in the morning (the wee-ams) with the lights off, so it kind of freaked me out with some of the noises and thought things you find.

I actully liked it in the end, though the character is a bit emo and it seems odd for such an emo kid to be so liked by everyone else... Hmm, the voice issue is a bit of a problem but at times it helps to know what the engrish is trying to say. :yogi:

A game I played around the same time as this is one called Time Hollow, I liked that too but disliked the lead character, somehow the two games seem to me to be 'samish'

Now that I actully re-looked at this game, I have so much left scene wise to unlock, gaah!

Spoiler:
I was really thinking that the serially infected Sayuri character would had more of a backstory or somethings. I oddly also was hoping for her to have a heart rating, like many of the other characters.

I also heard you can change who dies, other than a few 'set-piece' deaths like poor poor Mako.

Nami irritates me but has a funky dog, Shinji reminds me of a bratty (PLEASEDIENOW X_x) L, maybe it is just the hair, Edward is Cardinal Albert Simon, Yuzi pisses me off and I rather like Kyosuke. I could go on but that is useless.
Author:  Hoa Dao [ Tue May 19, 2009 5:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
Like I said, the text translation itself was done in Japan, so it was never localized by Ignition. Ignition DID handle the dubbing, though, which explains why the dub and texts are different.

I don't consider Atsuki as "emo" though I think it's because I am not very far into the game (I suffered the dead end in chapter 7). From what I remember, when he looks into the minds of others, it also opens a way into his mind in some way, so the consequence is that he is kind of rendered "unemotional"? I don't know. XD;;

I just want to say, Lux-Pain is more of a visual novel than any other text game that came out in English. I just want to throw that out, since a lot of people still have Phoenix Wright in their minds when it comes to visual novels like this and Time Hollow.

edit:

Pigeon_Maiden wrote:
The thing that makes my inner fangirl giggle is the countless amounts of implied shounen-ai in the game. XD It's cute.


You should see the fanfics. XD
Author:  ExtremelyBoredLoser [ Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
Ha ha, I looove Lux Pain. I played it through twice and got two different endings. I also got all of the extra scenes and pictures. It's soooo cute. Though throughout the whole game I just wanted to stab Mika, Nami, and Yayoi with my stylus.
Spoiler:
Actually, I wish we could have just let her commit suicide at that one point XD
I also remember this one point when I talked to Yuzi, he was telling me about how some guy randomly kissed him (or something like that) and then he asked if I liked chicks or guys and I told him "I dig guys" and he freaked out on me. Ahhh best moment ever.
My favorite character was Akira Mido, and I thought he and Atsuki were cutest together. Ryo and Hibiki were adorable together as well ^^.
Author:  Aevitas [ Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
I played through it once. It was an alright game, and yea the best part were the characters. The translations and the Silent bosses irked me to no end though.

I didn't know you could get more than one ending. What are the endings people have gotten so far?

Spoiler: My Ending
Mine involved Atsuki leaving town without telling anyone and having their memories of him wiped, but he cherished the memories he had with his classmates. Rumi then all of a sudden felt like something was wrong and suddenly remembered Atsuki and started running toward the bridge where he was leaving. Along the way she bumped into all their classmates who didn't remember Atsuki until she touched them. In the end she sped to the bridge on a motorcycle upset that he would just leave like that, but she didn't make it in time.


Yea.. a walkthrough would've been helpful, because I'm sure I missed a lot of events and endings because I didn't know which way I was going.
Author:  ExtremelyBoredLoser [ Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
Aevitas wrote:
I didn't know you could get more than one ending. What are the endings people have gotten so far?

Spoiler: My Ending
Mine involved Atsuki leaving town without telling anyone and having their memories of him wiped, but he cherished the memories he had with his classmates. Rumi then all of a sudden felt like something was wrong and suddenly remembered Atsuki and started running toward the bridge where he was leaving. Along the way she bumped into all their classmates who didn't remember Atsuki until she touched them. In the end she sped to the bridge on a motorcycle upset that he would just leave like that, but she didn't make it in time.


Yeah, that's the ending I got the first time. The second my ending was a bit... different.
Spoiler: My Second Ending
What happened was that nurse, Hanoko (sp?) went crazy and started killing people at the hospital. Instead of Shinji living he dies and you don't hear any more about Mika. After you defeat Edward the game ends, you miss out on like two or three days that you get to play with the good ending. XD
Author:  Amaterasu [ Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
I liked Lux-Pain, a lot of it was the artwork-REALLY nice! But the horrible translation took away from it, especially when they started calling female characters "he". I got the:
Spoiler: My ending
The nurse (Honoka? That her name?) goes berserk and kills/injures some people, the cameraman/teacher dies, and Atsuki defeats Edward. Then it ended really abruptly.

Are there any other endings other than this one (and the ones mentioned above)? I only unlocked the gallery, and there are definitely scenes missing. :eh?:
Author:  Hoa Dao [ Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
It's too bad that this game severely lacks walkthroughs. It's a good thing that there are some people who love the game to bits despite the translations, or else there wouldn't be helpers like this girl.

http://gintaxalvissforever.deviantart.c ... /25072523/

From what I can tell, there are three endings, though I never bothered to check them out.

Spoiler: Unusual ways to save a couple people
For Akira, when he is infected with the Dream silent, keep talking to him repeatedly.

For Honoka, you'll have to talk to her twice. The first time she kicks you out of the office, and the second time you will get a Worm from her. You can get her silent later on.

For Yumiko (the movie lady) get her silent while looking for Yayoi
Author:  Aevitas [ Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
Yea I think this is the first game where I wasn't able to find a walkthrough on gamefaqs.com. Usually that site has everything. And with a storyline that's so complicated it would've been handy to have. I didn't know what I was doing half the time I was playing this game. XD
Author:  marmori [ Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
This game is confusing and has a horrible localization/translation.
But I can't help but freakin' love it :D And I loved every character, too. Finished it yesterday, and I'm already playing it again. It's pretty creepy sometimes... I get a little paranoid when I play it at night.. Plus it's so sad and tragic. And easy to play. I like easy games :D Got the happy ending, though I think it was pretty sad. But what happens in the bad ending? I wanna know.

As for pairings...
Spoiler:
Het: I guess Atsuki/Yayoi. Shinji/Mika could be fun. And Aoi/Reiji, I melted to ground when she confessed. I'm a sucker for romance, apparently xD Arthur/Liu. I know she's only 12 but...! well I don't have anything to defend myself xD;
Yuri: Yui/Mako definitely<3
Yaoi: Akira/Atsuki, Shinji/Atsuki, Shunichi/Akira's dad, Hibiki/Ryo, and Naoto Hidaka/Shinji XD Gawd I'm perverted. Actually, I think Atsuki should just screw everybody :D


Is there any way to save Hidaka and Kyosuke? They died when I played the game :<
And feel free to correct my English.
Author:  Hoa Dao [ Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
I haven't checked out any of the other endings, but here's what I got from the girl who posted that FAQ:

Spoiler: Endings
Ending 1: You decided to not take Yui's silent. It's game over and I hear that credits roll (remember what Yui was trying to do when you take her Silent. It's pretty damn important to make a game over if Yui succeeds. XD)

Ending 2: Failing to save Honoka and/or (?) Sakai, resulting an ending at Chapter 19. She told me that Akira talks to Atsuki or something.

Hidaka and Kyosuke's deaths can not be prevented.


Pairings are crazy. XD And Akira/Atsuki is severely popular from what I've seen on ff.net...
Author:  Delcatty [ Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
This game was awesome! My absolute favourite scene was on the last day, when Suzu, Ryo & Kiryu were talking and she started speculating that they were dating and started an argument over who topped ! And after that, she asks whether Unami or Kiryu would confess, and then you get a scene of how she imagines it woud go. I literally sat there and lolled my face off wishing there was something like that in PW :gant:
& pairings wise, I like Ryo / Atsuki & Akira / Atsuki although Natsuki / Atsuki would have been cute if she hadn't been 13 and spent the entire game dressed like a lolita :lana:
Author:  Raine Robinson [ Sat Aug 01, 2009 4:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
I've been playing this game on and off for a while, and yep, the text translation is horrible... The voice acting is really good though and actually made me less confused than the text. Plus they have some pretty good VAs in there... I'm really dreading the end of this game cuz I get the feeling it's going to be horribly depressing. :payne:

I was wondering if anyone would happen to know a site where you could get the ringtones from the game? I want the doggies and kitties Ode to Joy... :gant:

Is there a way to stop Mako from dying? Cuz I put the game down for a month after that cuz I was really sad about it... But I'm sure this is just an exercise in futility...
Author:  SerialVER [ Sat Aug 01, 2009 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
Raine Robinson wrote:
I've been playing this game on and off for a while, and yep, the text translation is horrible... The voice acting is really good though and actually made me less confused than the text. Plus they have some pretty good VAs in there... I'm really dreading the end of this game cuz I get the feeling it's going to be horribly depressing. :payne:

I was wondering if anyone would happen to know a site where you could get the ringtones from the game? I want the doggies and kitties Ode to Joy... :gant:

Is there a way to stop Mako from dying? Cuz I put the game down for a month after that cuz I was really sad about it... But I'm sure this is just an exercise in futility...


Mako must die.
Author:  Hoa Dao [ Sun Aug 02, 2009 1:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lux-Pain
Nope, the death is canon. As are the CIA agent's and the freelance detective's (don't feel like revealing the names). Others you can prevent, though I never tried not preventing. ^^;

The ending isn't depressing, though that depends on how you look at it.
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