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Black Fable 3 Post-Game Thread https://forums.court-records.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=33536 |
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Author: | KamiPanda [ Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:08 pm ] |
Post subject: | Black Fable 3 Post-Game Thread |
With that, the game is over! Thank you all for participating. I’ll use this space to list QTs, the remaining character bios (as some aren’t written up in one place in the QT) and also N+G extras, i.e. stuff that would have been in the game if it had gone differently. I considered BF3 as somewhat of an experiment, so I had some things I wanted feedback on. Feel free to answer as many or as few of these as you like: • How was having a short game received? • How was the simpler story received? • How were vanilla roles received? • How was a lack of character integration received? • How was user-submitted characters in an NG received? • How was the pacing? Spoiler: Quicktopics Spoiler: Amber Ventura Spoiler: Jennifer Peppers Spoiler: Leon Vargas (I didn’t write one for Albatross as I left that up to Iago, due to the unique circumstances surrounding his character. It would have been an in-character post where Gianna possessed the robot to tell her tale, due to the Scientists (and thus the robot) not even being aware of her. She didn't want Reginald's story to just be "he was some nerd we captured and experimented on", as that would discredit his memory.) Spoiler: Nonary+ Game Extras Spoiler: Summaries of the unused Trials |
Author: | CaptainPancakes [ Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:09 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Black Fable 3 Post-Game Thread |
gg |
Author: | Kachu [ Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:09 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Black Fable 3 Post-Game Thread |
Gonna answer those questions in a minute, just gotta say gg Was my first serious go at a Mafia game as a town. Was pretty fun though I made some dumb calls here and there. Was surprised I got to live so long, but I'm sad Silver died in the end :[ Great game, thanks for hosting this for us! |
Author: | Southern Corn [ Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:10 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Black Fable 3 Post-Game Thread |
will address other stuff later but this was really fun as a shorter game, gg! being scientist in this counts as like cruel and unusual punishment i think but tbf we made our own dumb mistakes as well so oh whale anyway now that the game's over I can drop this joke I was ready to make since the start: Inclusivity win! The researcher who conducted inhumane experiments on you so that you could be used as a weapon in war is nonbinary! :D |
Author: | Doctor Nanjo [ Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:32 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Black Fable 3 Post-Game Thread |
Sorry team, my read was a fail. GGs to the big WINNERS. That said, this game was really fun! It was a pretty interesting Mafia set-up and the characters and flavor were fun: Short games are good for sure, I wish we had more formats for short games, even. I like user-submitted characters for something like this. People were pretty creative and it was fun to interact with them. The pacing was pretty casual and I had no problem with that. |
Author: | Cold52 [ Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:40 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Black Fable 3 Post-Game Thread |
gg folks, while it was rough it was indeed a fun short game. |
Author: | Kachu [ Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:19 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Black Fable 3 Post-Game Thread |
• How was having a short game received? I think it was pretty great, actually. Though I think it works best for games like this, since those with long and deep stories to tell often also run into issues, and the creators of said stories want them to be told properly, and the game ends up getting longer and longer than initially planned. I have no issue with shortness though! • How was the simpler story received? I feel like it might've gotten too simple? Actually no, the story itself was fine and was something I enjoyed, and I did like trying to piece together what was actually going on through little snippets dropped here and there, but not having any sort of idea about Cartor and what was going on felt a little weird. Kinda thought stuff like that would've been explained to everyone. Unless I missed something which is totally possible and I forgot about it since atm I'm tired lol. I liked the story though! I wish Odin didn't INSTANTLY kill me or whatever and we could've just talked it out tho :[ • How were vanilla roles received? At first I was actually pretty bummed that I got what I thought was a short end of the stick but it turns out that was actually to my benefit and got me to stick around longer haha. I was pretty worried about how enjoyable it'd be, since I'm new to Mafia mostly despite playing all three Black Fable games. (I don't really wanna count BF1 though I sucked there.) I've never been in one with Vanilla players though, but I had a fantastic time playing it anyways! • How was a lack of character integration received? I didn't mind it as much as I thought I would've. Though I think that more could've been done with it, but it would've also taking more work. It's a fun thing to do once in a while and I don't think it's something that should be avoided, especially if the game is shorter/simpler like this one. I didn't go too out there with mine but I had fun playing them anyways. • How was user-submitted characters in an NG received? Can't lie, I don't really consider this an NG. I don't think I can properly answer that because of this. Piecing together the plot with little bits was fun and interesting, but I had little investment in it because my character was totally not connected to it. I had little reason to feel for what was going on in Cartor and the people around them, aside from what someone would expect from people dying in front of them and all that crap we do in every game we play. When I hear "user-submitted characters in an NG" this isn't really what I'd think of at all, but that might just be how I feel about it. I think for this story though, user-submitted characters were an excellent choice. • How was the pacing? I think near the end some of the rounds could've been trimmed down. Like the final explore phase probably didn't have to be 3 days, and sometimes we had a lot of downtime with no discussions or posts. But that's not really something that can be accounted for. Just when there's 5 people left I thought the phases could've gone by a day faster, beyond that I think it was pretty spot on. |
Author: | DootDootDoot [ Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:23 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Black Fable 3 Post-Game Thread |
gg guys gg a lot of wacky and uncharacteristic stuff went down this game but in the end I do think it was pretty close all things considered. Spoiler: questio |
Author: | KamiPanda [ Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:32 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Black Fable 3 Post-Game Thread |
I definitely got a bit lazy when it came to explaining things. One of BF3's design pillars was "don't overthink anything, don't worry too much about anything". It resulted in stuff like the Cartor stuff not being explored enough, but it's also what let me get the game out of the door and it's what let me run it so smoothly. In my head "user submitted characters" and "characters not tied to the story" go hand-in-hand in an NG. It's sounding like for a proper NG, GM-created characters are the way to go. I definitely could have cut the final round's duration, but at that point I figured it was probably going to be the last round so I may as well keep it as the others had been. Exploration phases kinda needed to be 3 days to fit all the Trials and the GM post in. Discussion phases could be shorter maybe, but also the gaps were entirely due to timezones more than anything else so it's hard to tell. With regards to pacing I was in part thinking of how I combined posts into one to keep things expedient. I could have had gaps between people dying and the phase change, for instance, to let people react and stuff. In the end people largely seemed in favour of combined posts though, and they achieved my desired result: keeping the game moving. |
Author: | Kachu [ Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:39 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Black Fable 3 Post-Game Thread |
Mhm all that stuff is totally fair. Nothing I mentioned was a major issue/problem anyways, just posting my thoughts. Stuff seemed to go really smoothly though which is great to see since I don't think that happens with us often. |
Author: | Franzise Deauxnim [ Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:46 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Black Fable 3 Post-Game Thread |
gg folks, that was fun • How was having a short game received? • How was the simpler story received? • How were vanilla roles received? • How was a lack of character integration received? • How was user-submitted characters in an NG received? • How was the pacing? I don't think I really had a problem with any of these, I've always considered character interactions more important than the overarching story so what we had was more than sufficient, there were a number of good characters here Roles were fine, they didn't feel too overpowered so being vanilla didn't feel bad or anything and the game was close enough that it didn't feel like one side had too big an advantage or anything (though hard to say for sure with how luck factors into things) Sorry this is kind of a scattered mess but short version I enjoyed this |
Author: | Planetbox [ Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:06 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Black Fable 3 Post-Game Thread |
GGs all around, being Scientist in this game was deep pain but I still enjoyed this a lot. Having shorter games like this is always nice, and the gameplay was surprisingly balanced. The Trials were a fun edition, so it’s a shame we missed some of them simply due to how the game functioned. The cast was surprisingly vibrant and distinct as well. Codenames were fine I guess... Spoiler: Questions for Nerds I want QTs now pls |
Author: | CaptainPancakes [ Sun Jul 25, 2021 7:29 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Black Fable 3 Post-Game Thread |
GGs! Really fun and pretty close game, all things considered. Sorry to the Scientists for deducing who you all were by like, the end of the second discussion lol. Also sorry to TV-Head for constantly misgendering you it was pretty #sad. Also big GG to my fellow killer we killed them good <3 • How was having a short game received? I think the short game was pretty good. Even though I played up the inactivity a bit, it didn't really help with people who weren't posting that much. But there are circumstances that can keep people from posting which I get so the shorter game kind of cushions a blow of someone being inactive. • How was the simpler story received? I like. • How were vanilla roles received? Honestly vanilla roles made things really hard for us but I think that's because of how the game progressed. Panda letting us know the role distribution made the vanilla roles a real danger to us, since role claiming suddenly became hella dangerous because of how fast the roles were siphoned out. Still can't decide if knowing the distribution was a good or bad thing for balance in general, but it certainly made things interesting. • How was a lack of character integration received? • How was user-submitted characters in an NG received? Never played an NG so idk. • How was the pacing? I echo everyone else in saying when there's 5 people left, the phases could probably be shorter. But it never got bad. |
Author: | KamiPanda [ Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:37 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Black Fable 3 Post-Game Thread |
I've edited in all the stuff into the first post. |
Author: | Planetbox [ Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:22 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Black Fable 3 Post-Game Thread |
Never forget that the Scientists did nothing wrong |
Author: | KamiPanda [ Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:48 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Black Fable 3 Post-Game Thread |
Ash managed to escape so really it's a Scientist win |
Author: | Planetbox [ Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:09 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Black Fable 3 Post-Game Thread |
I am kinda curious though. How much of this game was planned since you made the initial posts in the NG5 post-game thread? And why’d it take so LONG |
Author: | KamiPanda [ Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:28 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Black Fable 3 Post-Game Thread |
Ah, yeah. My original idea was much more of a traditional NG, but it also had the three-faction Mafia aspect. The base story was the same, but would have been vastly expanded upon; the stuff from BF3 was more just like the basic background the game is set against, like how the base of NGX is "America vs China war". I struggled to get the story to work well though, I struggled to get the main twist to work well within the game, and ultimately I also realised I was struggling with the fact that the game had a Mafia game as its mechanical core. It was impossible to tell a cohesive NG story, especially one with characters, when the characters keep dying and I have zero control over which characters are dying or not. Ultimately I realised I was better off splitting the game up, so the Mafia stuff became its own game and the rest became a vague pile of ideas spread across a few planning documents. The Mafia stuff was a game I could actually make, due to its simplicity, so I ended up running it. I'm still not yet sure what I'll do with the remaining miscellaneous ideas though, as I'm not sure much of it is actually worth salvaging at this point anyway. I still have my usual issue of not being sure how to turn the story ideas into a forum game, too. At this point I have like three other game ideas that would probably come first, which are all much more cohesive and which specifically work as forum games. Edit: I went back to the NG5 post-game thread to remind myself of what you were talking about. That was so long ago, I'd forgotten how much of N+G was technically already thought-out back then XD It reminded me that there were originally going to be traditional room phases in N+G, and the Killers would only be able to kill someone in the same room as them. That gave the room group voting phase more of an actual meaning, as the Killers would need to try and put themselves in the same rooms as their targets and would also make themselves suspects due to narrowing down the suspects for each murder. Rooms were going to be chosen via a VLR-like chromatic door syste. The basis for my original N+G idea was me trying to figure out a good way to design a NG in the first place. NG5 was story-first, which meant mechanically and character-wise it was lacking. N+G was meant to be me doing a mechanics-first game, and building the story around that. I chose Mafia as the basic mechanic to drive the game, as it was a pre-existing game mechanic that I knew would be balanced. This stemmed from my general dissatisfaction with previous NGs where the mechanics were often quite rough and sort of didn't really work (such as finding items in room phases, and using those items on other players; there was also a lack of real direction for any character, especially villains, so everyone just sort of had to putter along and follow the GM). However, as I said, in the end the Mafia mechanics meant I couldn't tell a proper story so it ended up causing more harm than good. I said in the NG5 post-game that N+G was, at its core, a game about 'escaping' rather than just doing exactly what Zero wants. NGs often have that issue, where Zero is the players' enemy and yet they kind of just do exactly what Zero wants right up until the end. N+G's idea is that something's gone wrong in Zero's game, allowing the players to break free and escape under their own power instead of everything just being part of some larger plan. I thought it would be nice to give the characters agency in that regard. Of course, again it wasn't really that simple in the end to design. When N+G moved away from the more complex story stuff, it ended up being simplified so that it would work around the Mafia core. Mafia wants a repeating structure in its phases, so it couldn't have the more organic structure a proper 'escape the facility' game required. N+G was always a 12 player game. That came from me finding out about three-faction Mafia games when doing my research into what to use as a base. (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... e_Republic.) It worked well as it allowed the story to be normal players, Zero's team and then the Witch (who was originally going to be 'Subject Zero', so the 'Zero' of the game was the killer, not the one who'd captured everyone). One of the Scientists was actually going to be Laurent Sharpe from NG4: after escaping the game back then, he fled to a country overseas and set up there, working for the government to build up an Esper super-soldier using his knowledge from his previous work. I figured he'd probably end up dying, so he'd finally receive his punishment. Of course at this point like no-one really knows or remembers NG4 so there wasn't much point, and in any case N+G ended up being user-submitted characters. |
Author: | CaptainPancakes [ Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:24 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Black Fable 3 Post-Game Thread |
Wow we should have a DRF all stars in the format of a BF. Now that's a crossover! |
Author: | Southern Corn [ Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:52 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Black Fable 3 Post-Game Thread |
almost forgot to do these, not like i have much to say though • How was having a short game received? - p good, though it's funny a month is on the 'short side' for us. obviously the room phases felt super barren but idk lack of player activity on our end during most of those might not have helped. i'm probably partially to blame for it, i made uno not thinking about how he would have to interact with other people a lot and accidentally made them quiet and a bit antisocial oops so like apologies for that • How was the simpler story received? - if this were an ng probably not vey well but it worked for this game. i'm chill with it honestly and the little postgame bonus info was cute :) • How were vanilla roles received? - i had one basically so it was cool. still fun making arguments and such so not too much was lost • How was a lack of character integration received? - see simpler story i guess; same for the next one • How was user-submitted characters in an NG received? • How was the pacing? - uh i already did address this in my first bit gg gamers i love vibing |
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