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Danganronpa F6 Post-Game Thread https://forums.court-records.net:443/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=33206 |
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Author: | Lone [ Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:47 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Danganronpa F6 Post-Game Thread |
I can relate to the opinions of the people appearing contradictory and difficult to satisfy, and I think the best way to solve it is by simply expressing ourselves more clearly. I won't comment much on chapter 5 as I've said my piece in my QT, and don't really understand it enough to keep up with the conversation. I didn't really care about the cast overall, sans maybe 3-4 characters. But that's honestly pretty standard for me at this point. Although with that said, I've said over the years that the biggest roadblock I hit with Shirly (my F3 character) was not caring much about the F3 cast. Despite this, I feel even Shirly had some chemistry with a few of the characters (regardless of liking them or not), while Ciro even when showing up as a ghost had no chemistry and literally didn't have anything to say to them. The cave setting was really difficult to have FTEs in as well, with so little to do besides sitting around and talk. I read through my NinaxEvelyn fte the other day, and it was a load of fun. Also because Nina was more of a fun and expressive character than Ciro too. There's multiple factors at work here, so it's difficult to wade through them to see what the problem is. But when you get down to it, overall player burnout and just not caring is the root of most problems. Even with a limited setting, having players who care will help greatly, hence why I think these games need to go on a long break. Even if a few say they want another one right away, I feel it's best to give it some more time so more than just a few people are ready to go, else we wind up with another game with people being too burnt out to care. As for case difficulty, I only have chapter 1 to go off of, so I'll try my best to explain. Judging from my notes, it seems to be that we have a bunch of smaller details and mysteries scattered across the alibis, with many of these mysteries being arbitrary or not that compelling. Whereas something like F5-1 was several smaller events all tied together by one (the fire), with details usually pertaining to one of these events. This made it was easier to follow and visualize as it was easy to see the connections between the different details. Sure, the hole in the door thing was a bit difficult for us to visualize, as in an actual DR game you'd get a visual of it. But we got it after many questions about it to the GMs. I consider this a more minor balance issue case 1s tend to have, some more than others (F1, F2). Going back to my earlier post about how much energy these F games require, something like 6-1 is going to take a lot more energy due to the scatteredness and irrelevance of a lot of the details than 5-1 where it's written in a way to which it's easier to categorize and group the details together. When we go back to try and solve the mysteries, it's easier to disregard the details that fall outside of the relevant categories, resulting in a more fun and less stressful trial. |
Author: | KamiPanda [ Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:37 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Danganronpa F6 Post-Game Thread |
Using F1 as a core example, I think most of the cases there didn't have too much in the way of particularly extraneous details. Even when someone's alibi had them do something not particularly related to the crime, they didn't do much in particular overall. I think after F4 when people praised the alibis for being more detailed, GMs (me included) started trying to bulk up the alibis with more details, but that might have only caused more problems than it was worth. The simplest way to make a case easier to follow is to cut down on the sheer volume of information you need to take in at the beginning, which is a very real barrier to entry. That's similar to how the actual games (not just DR ones) do it: details about the case are revealed steadily over time instead of dropping all the information at once. I think F6-3 was the best for trying to minimise complexity in F6, but even then there were extraneous details you could probably just cut. In a well-structured mystery story alibis and other details can be revealed slowly over time. We don't have that luxury in F games, as everyone's present at the beginning and just says everything they witnessed and investigated, so to compensate individual alibis probably need to be somewhat simpler than they have been of late. After the first few cases in F5, I soon realised I didn't need to worry about trying to conceal information or keep things intentionally vague. Mysteries tend to work out well regardless, especially if you have clear chains of deduction planned out for how the case should be solved. Like there's definitely still things you can keep secret, but for example I don't think concealing the purpose of the circles in F6-4 added to the mystery at all; instead it mostly just added artificial difficulty, which is the worst kind of difficulty. The most fun I have during mysteries is when I look at evidence, piece it together and make a deduction. Needlessly obfuscating evidence to hinder that progress doesn't actually make the case more interesting, just frustrating. Weirdly enough, the mystery that got the most player-participation in F5 was, out of all of them, that random little crime from Eli's past. Minimal extraneous details, very low complexity, yet it also wasn't just something you could solve immediately without at least some discussion. Even when I thought the solution was clear people still managed to come up with alternate theories. Surprisingly it might be a good example to follow. |
Author: | JesusMonroe [ Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:58 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Danganronpa F6 Post-Game Thread |
I think another problem is that the same players tend to be inactive every game. I’m really not trying to be mean, I’m not even really blaming them. Kachu, Salem, and TLF always just go radio-silent in trials. When it happens X games in a row it’s past a point where it can really be ignored. I’ll say I usually would put Matt on this list and while he could be inactive at points he at least was clearly putting effort in or had some of his posts filled with character. I thought he did a much better job than usual. And in this game aside from Chapter 2 it felt like Pancakes just vanished during trials too (funnily enough there wasn’t a single chapter this game where the killer was active during their trial). I find this really damaging to characters cause trials are usually where the most characterization can be displayed. Honestly the worst part about this inactivity is that almost always it comes at the cost of great character concepts who would’ve added to the game—not other characters, their characters. I don’t want anyone I mentioned to be discouraged from participating, but I do think this is a big reason why the trial system needs to be revamped. It’s always the same 5-6 people participating which can end up dwindling to the same 2-3. When at best half the game isn’t participating in the core concept then it’s probably just not that fun. So maybe the games should trend towards something easier which would hopefully encourage participation across the board. |
Author: | Southern Corn [ Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:59 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Danganronpa F6 Post-Game Thread |
Okay quick points on stuff, I confused Brandy/Satan earlier it should be the other one WC, I don't think Nail being involved in every murder would be very fun and would be overdoing his manipulation in the game, the window thing was supposed to be a distraction for Nail so that the stuff would fall onto the bed before Daniel got moved onto there (which is why the hat and stuff was undamaged), having trials be made simpler with easier to follow alibis isn't really 'revamping' the entire system but I get it but also that said it could easily backfire if made too simple ultimately but it could maybe be a better way to get inactives actually involved in the core of the game but also the burnout might be too big from the past few games so idk, and finally Monomi isn't actually that sexy. Now that I've got that outta the way I don't want to spend too much time on it so behold, some fun survey stuff! Vices: (Some of these were altered during the course of the game for various reasons.) Spoiler: Oliver Spoiler: Enola Spoiler: Sebastian Spoiler: Brandy Spoiler: Benjamin Spoiler: Lavender Spoiler: Ciro Spoiler: Carrie Spoiler: Klifford Spoiler: Bennett Spoiler: Charlie Spoiler: Matt Spoiler: Micah Spoiler: Satan Spoiler: Shizune Spoiler: Daniel Spoiler: Ivan Joke Surveys: (Try to guess who wrote which. It's not hard for some of them but others are trickier.) Spoiler: First McWorst Spoiler: General Luigi Spoiler: cavemaster2330 Spoiler: Last O'Blast Wow there's way less here than I remembered there being. Anyway now's the part you all have been looking forward to: Character Prompts: Spoiler: Oliver Spoiler: Enola Spoiler: Sebastian Spoiler: Brandy Spoiler: Benjamin Spoiler: Lavender Spoiler: Ciro Spoiler: Carrie Spoiler: Klifford Spoiler: Bennett Spoiler: Charlie Spoiler: Matt Spoiler: Micah Spoiler: Satan Spoiler: Shizune Spoiler: Daniel Spoiler: Ivan And that's it whoops enjoy. |
Author: | Doctor Nanjo [ Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:06 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Danganronpa F6 Post-Game Thread |
I think it's probably fair to say that Panda is right about people like tuning trials out because there's a high barrier of entry to understand them and participate. One thing which could help is transparently creating a list of evidence and then crossing out items as they're used or something and just generally make them easier. Additionally people barely ever care about their alibi unless it's ultra cool/interesting, so I feel like just like getting rid of alibis altogether is a good idea as well. Maybe just have the mystery be a single post in the thread which can be analyzed for clues. Also yeah sorry about difficulty in F6. It was definitely my bad. F4 definitely had the same problem at times. I think that the way I make these mysteries just doesn't work for us, regardless of the clarity/obscurity of individual clues. |
Author: | DootDootDoot [ Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:10 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Danganronpa F6 Post-Game Thread |
Quote: Anyway while I'm here I'd also like to opine that Igniter's post-game meme writing wasn't really that funny to me and I feel like I've seen better from him before. Not really bad, just kinda disappointing and simplistic coming from him. I don't really blame him but also I just had to get that out sorry. you're just uncultered |
Author: | DootDootDoot [ Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:24 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Danganronpa F6 Post-Game Thread |
Double posting because this needs to be said Quote: With that, I picked up my wonderful burger that I had been planning on enjoying and strutted out of there. The man who annoyed me would soon find my own way of revenge at his very doorstep later... Did Satan take a dump on a guy's doorstep |
Author: | Southern Corn [ Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:36 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Danganronpa F6 Post-Game Thread |
tbh idk you'd have to ask Saizo yourself |
Author: | SaizotheSixth [ Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:59 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Danganronpa F6 Post-Game Thread |
I will neither confirm nor deny any form of accusation. |
Author: | Kachu [ Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:52 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Danganronpa F6 Post-Game Thread |
I can only speak for myself here but I can definitely see myself being able to participate more with easier trials. I'm not sure how to determine what exactly made the F6 ones so much harder for me to follow along with, but I don't recall having any issues like that in F2, or in F3 aside from the third case there. My activity issues with Bennett came from a lot more than just the trials, though, mainly coming from my distaste for the character and being unable to change it after realizing this like 2 weeks before the game started. I don't think this is some big issue that needs to be fixed, though, just something on my end. I will parrot what Joker said and say that the magic and all that was really crazy for me to wrap my head around. I'm not against it in future games but I feel like mysteries could be a lot easier without stuff like that. Though the rules for the magic did make things better when they came. The longer alibis are nice too, but maybe going back to shorter ones could be better off? I also think that if we eventually want to hunt down new people we should be making the trials a little easier so they can have an easier time participating. |
Author: | Franzise Deauxnim [ Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:03 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Danganronpa F6 Post-Game Thread |
Thanks for hosting, SC and Nanjo uh I guess I've been pretty clear about my feelings on the game/cast so I'll try not to get too into it again Fwiw I thought the ghosts coming back to help take out the mastermind was kind of nice but I can see where it might be a little disappointing for the survivors to not really be able to do anything themselves I think trials are definitely at the point of being too hard and essentially requiring guesswork to get anywhere, they're so frustrating they aren't even any fun. Alibis in particular are way too long and complicated; how many times did someone comment on having a massive alibi to write out? On the other hand, literally all of mine could be summed up as 'Shizune stayed in bed and didn't witness anything of note'. Most of the trials, I barely participated in mainly because I had no idea what the hell was even going on. I didn't post anything in 6-3 because I literally couldn't even follow the very basic premise of who was where doing what when, and when I asked the GMs about it, I didn't get any help understanding it. Eventually I had to get Panda to idiot-explain the basic plot of my own trial to me. I hated how much of all the mysteries revolved around magic. If magic is going to be used in a mystery, it should be sparingly and clearly defined as to what kind of magic was used. Trials are hard enough to figure out without tossing in the fact that we had to guess what spells were used with the unknown/unseen magic circles (there was always at least one). For me, Daily Life is pretty important in these games because that's when you get to bond with and learn about the cast. The first two DLs were pretty barren as far as things to actually do but idk, even when we got to the fake town in Chapter 3, nobody really did anything except go get drunk at the bar. I don't really know or feel anything for most of the cast; I guess I kind of liked Matt, Brandy, Enola, and Seb somewhat, but everyone else I either just didn't like or couldn't tell you much of anything about other than their name (mostly the latter). Anyway yeah sorry this is kind of rambling and caustic, writing at work and don't feel like reading it over |
Author: | Doctor Nanjo [ Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:41 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Danganronpa F6 Post-Game Thread |
Yeah well it's interesting. I am definitely very sorry about the alibis and stuff and am really disappointed in myself. That said, no matter how simple the premise was, a lot of details would just kinda flood the thing regardless. Everyone's alibi in chapter 2 minus the lower cavern people was pretty simple. Everyone's alibi in chapter 1 was simple as well each person did like one thing max. Chapter 4s alibis were like extremely simplistic. And somehow I'm being praised for making chapter 3 the simplest? Anyway, if I ever do this again, I'll try my best to make the cases simpler by changing the design philosophy behind them so that more people an participate. I should have understood that the low participation meant something was really wrong but I more or less just focused on getting enough people to participate so that things could move along "smoothly" and nothing else. |
Author: | KamiPanda [ Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:12 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Danganronpa F6 Post-Game Thread |
Chapter 3 was the simplest premise, not necessarily the simplest alibis. Chapter 4 had very simple alibis but the case itself was far more complicated. Chapter 2's complexity was specifically from the lower cavern group: I guess they were all doing their own thing, had somewhat long alibis, their alibis had all kinds of various intersections and it also seemed like people had difficulty visualising the setting. |
Author: | JesusMonroe [ Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:33 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Danganronpa F6 Post-Game Thread |
I definitely think in the future it might be a good idea to have pretty much the whole mystery posted in the thread. Alibis at that point are just useful for the killer or the few liars, but basically any player is reading the mystery unfold as it would happen in a DR game. Very rarely in a DR game do you hear someone talk about the entire little adventure they had while the murder was happening—I understand it’s for cast balance reasons and that the games can never be exactly the same cause of the format but still. F3-1 is the closest to this kind of thing where the only thing extra to remember is the John group and Akio’s little thing (I’m sure I’m forgetting something but main point is the bulk of the info was in the thread). And people don’t really have to keep track of a bunch of timestamps or meeting points or whatever, you either did something before the foyer meeting, during, or after. |
Author: | Lone [ Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:56 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Danganronpa F6 Post-Game Thread |
And 3-1 had that section with the blackout posted in the actual thread when it was initially going to just be in a few people's alibis. I think that's the way to go actually, just post the shared alibi stuff and say the characters know because they already talked about it off-screen. Speaking of Daily Life, when even the people who like those aren't really posting, that's a sign the formula's gotten stale. I mean, I enjoy having to read one post per day as opposed to 100+, but that really isn't very good for the game or character chemistry. I appreciate chapter 1 trying something new... but man was it difficult to read through. Most of the posts just being discussion about minor things like 'let's go right' 'no, let's go left', which don't wind up any more compelling that the boring small talk in the typical DL. Come to think of it, whether I like a character rarely ever comes down to DL, trials and story relevance being much more important |
Author: | Lone [ Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:32 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Danganronpa F6 Post-Game Thread |
Here be the F6 dead sprites. Spoiler: Dead Sprites |
Author: | WinterCoat [ Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:51 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Danganronpa F6 Post-Game Thread |
yeah hi here's the (beta bc honestly the shadow gimmick for it doesn't look good at all on CR :/) logo for F7 because SC held a gun to my head and threatened to eat my family if I didn't tease it properly or something see you in 2020 dorks (image is big oops idc BYE) |
Author: | Southern Corn [ Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:54 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Danganronpa F6 Post-Game Thread |
Very cool! Excited to see more info on this. Anyway your family is free now but I'm definitely going to be :eyes: on this till further stuff happens. |
Author: | Kachu [ Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:00 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Danganronpa F6 Post-Game Thread |
As long as my family is safe you can stare all you want but please don’t drool on the rug thanks. Also yeah F7 in 2020 be there or be square. |
Author: | Franzise Deauxnim [ Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:06 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Danganronpa F6 Post-Game Thread |
>dice and triple 7s is this the return to Ursino Island are we finally going to rescue Monoroomba |
Author: | Southern Corn [ Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:09 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Danganronpa F6 Post-Game Thread |
Sadly I think Monoroomba is already canonically dead. |
Author: | KamiPanda [ Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:14 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Danganronpa F6 Post-Game Thread |
Did someone say rescue V.A.L.? |
Author: | CaptainPancakes [ Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:33 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Danganronpa F6 Post-Game Thread |
I have a plan for that |
Author: | Southern Corn [ Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:11 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Danganronpa F6 Post-Game Thread |
VAL is also canonically dead sorry, try again. |
Author: | WinterCoat [ Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:55 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Danganronpa F6 Post-Game Thread |
Spoiler: F7 Spoiler: A Congratulatory Letter [Sign-up thread coming in ~2 weeks. We hope to see you at the Twilight Palace.] |
Author: | Southern Corn [ Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:52 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Danganronpa F6 Post-Game Thread |
How exciting this sounds. |
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