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Re: Danganronpa F4 Post-Game ThreadTopic%20Title
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Imagine: V.A.L. in a dress

Discuss.
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Aww, thanks, guys. I'm honestly surprised to see that Bryan was well-received, lol. I was afraid of making him too bland or something. But yeah, thanks.

Also V.A.L. would look beautiful with a dress and don't you dare say otherwise
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JesusMonroe wrote:
And also to be contrarian, I actually liked the twist that the meltdown was an accident (not cause it was Jack I swear).


Hey, that's my line.

While I have several uncertainties when it came to the final trial, I was okay with the meltdown being an accident. We may have imagined something grander when hearing about the meltdown and the terrorist earlier on in the game, but this was in-character for Jack, and served as the mastermind's motive well enough.

However, I was underwhelmed at the Koichi being the second mastermind reveal. Mainly in that, as said by the characters in-game, all he really did was submit motives, and the game would have carried on regardless due to the automated system. Sure, all F games prior have had asshole sociopathic masterminds (including F1, considering that's what the fake masterminds pretended to be), so a reasonable justified mastermind was needed to differ from them. Abby was ok in this regard, with the accident tying into it nicely. Koichi's attachment to Jack also worked, and the guilt left an impact. But because his actions didn't affect Jack's fate, and he never really did anything mastermind-y, it lacked the gut punch it could have had. The after with the class trying to talk him out of suicide was good though. My only issue is how little his involvement meant in the context of the game and its progression.

Similarly, I was left a bit underwhelemd by Oscar being Kyle's killer too. This time, it was because he went down without much of a fight. The finger was pointed at him, and he gave a bit of a rebuttal, but once the class insisted, he buckled quite quickly. Thinking about it, a lot of the killers this game were like that. Whether it be Ace Attorney or Danganronpa, a lot of the time, the killer will wriggle and squirm, coming up with various lies and scenarios to prove their innocence. And it's always a very satisfying part of the case... unless it goes on too long. It makes the killers look pretty silly when once the finger is pointed to them, all they have to say is 'no I didn't' without much reason or argument to back them up. It's like they thought up on how to kill someone, but not really on how they were going to get away with it. I think this is a result of the lack of traditional smoking guns, but the cases being solvable with alibis and investigations regardless. Maybe something for future killers and GMs to think about I guess. At least Oscar was more justified in this regard, with his mercy kill not being for a student, meaning he wouldn't be executed even if found out. It still stuck out a bit regardless.

But final trial issues aside, this was still a strong game that got me over my burnout. Even things that bored me in every F game prior like too much small talk wasn't prevalent here, and for that, credit is definitely due.
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Lone wrote:
Whether it be Ace Attorney or Danganronpa, a lot of the time, the killer will wriggle and squirm, coming up with various lies and scenarios to prove their innocence. And it's always a very satisfying part of the case... unless it goes on too long. It makes the killers look pretty silly when once the finger is pointed to them, all they have to say is 'no I didn't' without much reason or argument to back them up. It's like they thought up on how to kill someone, but not really on how they were going to get away with it. I think this is a result of the lack of traditional smoking guns, but the cases being solvable with alibis and investigations regardless.

To be fair I don't remember this really being a thing in DR. It's more present in AA cause you always have to prove how they did it, but in DR you only need to figure out who so there's not much point in continuing once that's figured out. And at least the games have the liberty of continuing the trial a little bit once the blackened is accused, but in F games it does make most sense when writing the mystery to have the killer be the last thing that's solved.

Not saying I disagree with your point and it'd be nice to see, but it's easier said than done.
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Quote:
However, I was underwhelmed at the Koichi being the second mastermind reveal. Mainly in that, as said by the characters in-game, all he really did was submit motives, and the game would have carried on regardless due to the automated system. Sure, all F games prior have had asshole sociopathic masterminds (including F1, considering that's what the fake masterminds pretended to be), so a reasonable justified mastermind was needed to differ from them. Abby was ok in this regard, with the accident tying into it nicely. Koichi's attachment to Jack also worked, and the guilt left an impact. But because his actions didn't affect Jack's fate, and he never really did anything mastermind-y, it lacked the gut punch it could have had. The after with the class trying to talk him out of suicide was good though. My only issue is how little his involvement meant in the context of the game and its progression.


That was actually a running concern I had throughout the game, but I wasn't really able to think of anything mastermind-y I could do since I lacked knowledge about the cases and stuff. I would have definitely liked to have done more threatening things. I think maybe knowing Koichi despite "running" the game couldn't stop Jack's execution could have been an interesting angle because Koichi felt useless for a lot of the game, but generally I think the set-up of the game could have been made clearer. But frankly I had no idea what people thought of the reveal since no one was receptive towards it when it happened, and maybe we could have made some B.S. up on the spot since that's how I roll anyway, so who knows.

Quote:
Similarly, I was left a bit underwhelemd by Oscar being Kyle's killer too. This time, it was because he went down without much of a fight. The finger was pointed at him, and he gave a bit of a rebuttal, but once the class insisted, he buckled quite quickly. Thinking about it, a lot of the killers this game were like that. Whether it be Ace Attorney or Danganronpa, a lot of the time, the killer will wriggle and squirm, coming up with various lies and scenarios to prove their innocence. And it's always a very satisfying part of the case... unless it goes on too long. It makes the killers look pretty silly when once the finger is pointed to them, all they have to say is 'no I didn't' without much reason or argument to back them up. It's like they thought up on how to kill someone, but not really on how they were going to get away with it. I think this is a result of the lack of traditional smoking guns, but the cases being solvable with alibis and investigations regardless. Maybe something for future killers and GMs to think about I guess. At least Oscar was more justified in this regard, with his mercy kill not being for a student, meaning he wouldn't be executed even if found out. It still stuck out a bit regardless.


Well, I mean, Oscar had no reason to fight the verdict. It was really likely that nothing bad would happen to him, and there was no malice in the crime. I agree that since he decided to do a rebuttal, he could have done more, but I thought maybe he should have just led people onto the crime like Koichi did. Mostly because I didn't really get a sense of regret from Oscar at that moment. I mean, I'm sure he had some, but it could have been a good moment for him but he sort of denied it to bring up "other important things" which unfortunately were not discussed.
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CaptainPancakes wrote:
Have VAL be a bridesmaid at the wedding, ez


Or what if V.A.L. was the officiant :0
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JesusMonroe wrote:
To be fair I don't remember this really being a thing in DR. It's more present in AA cause you always have to prove how they did it, but in DR you only need to figure out who so there's not much point in continuing once that's figured out. And at least the games have the liberty of continuing the trial a little bit once the blackened is accused, but in F games it does make most sense when writing the mystery to have the killer be the last thing that's solved.

Not saying I disagree with your point and it'd be nice to see, but it's easier said than done.


Yeah, I agree with that, and heck, I fell into that exact same trap in F2-4. I do think prior F games at least had the killer play it up a little more. Err, like F1-3 DA played it so well, a good number of us doubted our WIP theory, and that was where a lot of tension in that case came from. Had she just said something like 'no I didn't', I doubt she would have fooled us as much as she did. Or even F3-1, F3-4, or F2-3, just suspecting the person wasn't enough. There was always something else- the watch, or the killer still being blind.

With DR:

Spoiler: First Game
First trial, while a bad example, with somehow the killer's name not being enough to convince everyone, Leon puts up a fight regardless which makes it more satisfying than if everyone just voted once the dying message was found. A good subversion would be Mondo's trial, where it's Ishimaru who's putting up the fight regardless. Mondo isn't the one pushing for his own innocence, and he actually admits to it quite quickly. In that case, it was in-character for him, and allowed for Ishimaru to shine instead.


Spoiler: Second Game
Third trial, Mikan while insisting it couldn't have been her, accidentally lets slip about the camera angle, and then tries to assert about the tote bag, which gives the player a sense of slowly bringing her down. I think Gundham puts up a fight in the fourth case, but I don't remember the specifics, lol.


Spoiler: Third Game
I don't remember enough about v3 to list examples, sorry.


CaptainPancakes wrote:
Well, I mean, Oscar had no reason to fight the verdict. It was really likely that nothing bad would happen to him, and there was no malice in the crime. I agree that since he decided to do a rebuttal, he could have done more, but I thought maybe he should have just led people onto the crime like Koichi did. Mostly because I didn't really get a sense of regret from Oscar at that moment. I mean, I'm sure he had some, but it could have been a good moment for him but he sort of denied it to bring up "other important things" which unfortunately were not discussed.


That's right, my concern is more to prior killers more than Oscar. I think 'could have done more', as you said, fits the bill best. Doesn't have to be a standard final struggle, but at least something to make it feel more worthy of a final killer.
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I just want V.A.L. to catch the bouquet and then accidentally lock eyes with the robot photographer.
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SiRReN wrote:
CaptainPancakes wrote:
Have VAL be a bridesmaid at the wedding, ez


Or what if V.A.L. was the officiant :0


But then VAL can't hold a wild bachelorette party
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I don't actually think the game was meant to continue without motives being sent, though I can't quite remember. At the very least, Otto would have known that something was wrong.
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Oh. I assumed you would still jump from next location to the next because of the agenda Otto had, and since the murders were sort of separate from the motives, the game would have continued.
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About the whole "killers giving up too easily" thing in my defense no human being alive could withstand the power of Val's Ultimate Emotional Support
I had to confess you guys
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KamiPanda wrote:
I just want V.A.L. to catch the bouquet and then accidentally lock eyes with the robot photographer.


Yes please
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DootDootDoot wrote:
About the whole "killers giving up too easily" thing in my defense no human being alive could withstand the power of Val's Ultimate Emotional Support
I had to confess you guys


V.A.L. loves and trusts you all.
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Lol I mean James did an alright job I guess, he kept up a strong argument about why he couldn't have killed Abby but when the screwdriver came up, oops he confesses but that was more satisfying to me than the others XD But yeah, I guess that could get dull. Chapter 4 at least had Raul trying to rebut everyone and stuff.
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CaptainPancakes wrote:
Oh. I assumed you would still jump from next location to the next because of the agenda Otto had, and since the murders were sort of separate from the motives, the game would have continued.


Nah, I don't think so. Though I don't remember giving it much though since obvious it didn't happen. Not sure when it would have been discussed if I had.

Also Lone if you have all these opinions about how a proper killer should act, maybe you should kill next time
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A-ack! Someone call the firefighters!
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Jack/Oscar FTE would have benefitted from me not letting it bleed out and die for eight days. Guy's feelings would have been a little clearer in that time frame, and kinda regret not being able to see a reaction to that in-game.

Also, should address what the heckle I was doing in that last trial.

As Pancakes said there really wasn't a reason for Oscar to put up a huge fight at that point. Everyone IC was saying "well we wouldn't really blame el killeró" and the implication there wouldn't be any real consequence to him admitting it at that point. By then it would just look silly that he'd be incredibly worried about getting caught. Which actually is what got me wanting to set something else up, but...

My intention after Oscar confessed was that more along the lines of him trying to drop the topic like he was doing and after getting pushed enough he'd buckle under and have an honest to goodness breakdown. Unfortunately it was the end of the game and everyone was tired so I probably should've tried something different. Though either way looks like I didn't get the intention across as well as I'd hoped. Oops.
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Well I definitely saw that you were building up to something but unfortunately at that point, everyone sorta seemed to want the game to end. Or maybe they were all just busy, I know a lot of people were actually legitimately busy and couldn't post much, which is fine, but, ya.
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I want to add that I loved Otto and Kyle, and was toying with V.A.L. developing a crush on Otto.
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Planetbox wrote:
Also Lone if you have all these opinions about how a proper killer should act, maybe you should kill next time


Yes, I shall follow your example from when you were the killer in... oh wait.

I think I'm only noticing these things cos I've been playing through DGS2. It's pretty good and everyone should give it a shot... oh.
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Maybe YOU should finish it before the foreigners like me do LONE >:(
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Lol, Otto does have a pretty sexy voice tbh

Also Lone you can follow my many examples in Vesti and Lauren's I'm not writing the full name out
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Props to the GMs for organizing all of this! It must have been hard work to write everything up, especially since the alibis were a lot longer and more detailed this time around.

However I do have some things that I kind of need to get off my chest, and at the end of the day it's better to be blunt than to hugbox you like some others here might. I know you don't want to hear about Chapter 3 but that was the chapter my character died in, and was fairly central to my experience with F4. I'm sorry but what. Was that. How did Irene killing her parents and a monster thing (that ended up being a massive red herring as well as complete waste of time) receive more attention and relevance to the trial than Florian being the Ultimate Talent Thief? How did that get brushed off so easily? The red herring monster got its own discussion topic but the talent disappearances didn't? What?

Also the talent thefts were just handled so poorly and with such a lack of communication and if you had told me that it was going to be too much for you to handle before the game started then I would have gladly signed up with a different character! Oscar's talent disappearance for example (I didn't even get to choose who I could steal from which was kind of dumb honestly, especially when the decisions you guys made as to whose talent should disappear ended being arbitrary) was so messy that Icarus didn't even realize his talent was supposed to have disappeared until I told him so after Chapter 3. I ended up having to try to fill the plot holes that you guys left me and it was just generally unpleasant. It felt like you guys didn't see it as important enough to get it right.

The plot in general was just kind of all over the place, and Abby's decision to host a killing game never made sense. It would have been significantly better if Abby had twisted into a sadistic, irrational maniac who lost her regard for life after the nuclear incident ruined everything for her (and for her father + the world), but instead we got what we got. The ending was also just too much honestly. A blunt? Really?

Anyways that's the end of my rant (I think).
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There was really no way for me at least to have predicted if the talent thief thing would have been too much to handle, since I had never GMed before and had no idea what it would be like. And then by the time it started, it was already too late. That's one of my biggest regrets about this whole thing.

Also you got to choose at least half of the talent victims smh

Yeah Ch3 sucked

I don't really get what you're saying with that last part though. I mean, that's basically what happened? Like sure Abby wasn't raving mad, but I never meant to imply that the incident didn't mess her up any in the mental department. I guess I could see that not getting across in the like two times she spoke, but still. I don't understand how it could not make any sense.
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I got to choose James and Jack, but was it really absolutely 100% necessary for Koichi and Oscar to lose their talents? Was it also really necessary to change the plan last minute and let them act out their own talent losses even though they had no idea what was happening and had to rely on vague 2-sentence DMs? That problem would have been instantly solved if you had written their reactions for them by briefly sprinkling it into a Daily Life event or something.

It felt like Abby actually believed she was trying to catch and punish the terrorist and that she was just misunderstood or whatever rather than her being flat-out evil. Like we were supposed to vaguely understand her reasoning.

Also no offense but you saying one of your biggest F4 regrets was letting me in isn't the most reassuring thing to hear lol
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Oh, I meant that one of my biggest regrets was how poorly it was handled. Probably my biggest regret if I'm being honest.

I mean, I don't want to point fingers but Nanjo was the main one pushing for that, so not much I can say. That was so long ago I don't even remember the decisions that went into it, so I'm not gonna bother trying to justify it. All I can say is sorry.

I guess we're just gonna have to agree to disagree about the Abby thing. I don't even know what there is to not understand about her reasoning, but I don't really care enough to get into an argument about it. Can't please everybody.
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I'm glad you can understand some of the stuff I'm saying. There was just such a strong sense of apathy and indifference whenever I DMed you guys asking about what was going on which got to a point where it felt almost disrespectful. The build-up ended up being clunky and the actual reveal felt worthless and disappointing.

But I guess in one way this has also been a lesson for me to go for less ambitious character ideas, as to avoid all the shenanigans and messiness that comes with more complicated concepts.
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I have no idea about how exactly you guys communicated, who suggested what, what you put in your survey, or whatever. It's not in the quicktopic so I can really only guess.

Florian's talent thefts were a pretty big focus though. It was talked about a good amount for both the Ch2 and 3 Daily Life. It wasn't a topic in the Ch3 class trial because the GMs didn't want to make it obviously relevant, and it got solved regardless. And the only reason he stole the talent was to hide in a box, so while it was relevant, I don't know why you're acting like it needed to have its own topic to feel that way. Who cares?

I can definitely understand that it's frustrating as a player to want to communicate with the GMs and either feel like they're not listening or don't care. It could be either of those, or it could be that they had stuff preplanned and don't really wanna discuss spoilers with a random player. But know what's frustrating from a GM perspective? Dealing with a barely active player, who doesn't really help solve the trials either. I'm not gonna act like your activity was abysmal this game but it seems extremely wrong to me to act like the GMs were indifferent when they still let you bow out of the game when you needed to, had Florian try to kill someone like you wanted to, and included the diary page which you wrote.

And given your past track record in these games, your inability to participate in this one all the way through, and a lot of seeming indifference about the game itself as it was going on (this is just my perspective), I can see why Florian wasn't given any more than he was.

As for criticisms about Florian himself (since this isn't a hugbox), Florian felt clunky because he was a clunky character. That's it. Maybe things would've been different had he been a killer and we could see his Talent Thief side more but you dropped the game before that happened and your complaint seems to be more about how him stealing talents was handled which is just arbitrary to me. There's nothing ambitious about a hidden talent since this is like the 90th one in 4 F games, but it is ambitious to expect a big role in the story without earning it.

Also in general I think people get way too focused on their own characters when it comes to these games. There's 17 other ones and an entire narrative with 5 separate chapters to appreciate too. It's certainly normal to care a lot about how your character pans out, and be upset when things don't go the way you hoped, but too many just let that poison how they feel about the rest of the game.

Anyway didn't mean to put words in yours (or the GMs) mouths if I accidentally did so in this post. And I am fine with you speaking up about grievances and hope more people do too in general, just your complaints about Florian here don't seem to either matter that much or feel necessarily earned. And your Abby complaint is just saying you wish it happened some other way rather than an actual problem with how it did happen.
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Unrelated to JM's post, but I just remembered something I forgot earlier. F, I don't remember why Koichi in particular was chosen, but the entirety of Ch1 was pre-written before the game started, so no matter who it was there was no way you could have gotten to choose in that chapter. I don't know whether that means anything, but I thought it was worth pointing out.
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TheLetterF wrote:
I'm glad you can understand some of the stuff I'm saying. There was just such a strong sense of apathy and indifference whenever I DMed you guys asking about what was going on which got to a point where it felt almost disrespectful. The build-up ended up being clunky and the actual reveal felt worthless and disappointing.


That's understandable. I guess I wound up being pretty confused about your expectations and that's an issue with communication. My understanding was that you wanted us to set up the thefts so that they could be relevent to the mysteries and that Florian mostly acted out of necessity like a vampire, and so there was a decent amount lenience on the type of people you stole from, so we prewrote that Florian stole Koichi's in the pregame, and then when we were looking for something to set up Oscar's story and mental breakdown, and thought the talent theft would work well with that. I also thought that there would be some subtlety and ambiguity to the mystery, and so the expectation would be that at first the victims wouldn't understand explicitly what was going on, and that we would build on that. I also defended people finding their own way to react to it because Florian's ability could alter personalities, and so players were given an opportunity to explore different facets of their character, which I thought would be cool for them.
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I feel like this is an opportune time to say this, since the happy mood's been nuked from orbit anyways.
But I really didn't like this game's conclusion. I'm talking about the meltdown, and Jack's terrorist role and all, not the final trial in its entirety.

I'm actually going to stop myself right now to say I really like the idea of the meltdown being an accident. It adds a lot of dramatic irony to the whole thing which is something I'm a big fan of. However, I found it really, really, really hard to take seriously.
Basically, I think there were better ways of handling the accidental meltdown than making it a direct result of Jack getting high in a public bathroom. Maybe someone unwittingly carried one of Keri's bombs to the reactor room, just as a quick example.
The main issue I have with how it played out is that it killed the game's tone and mood for me. I couldn't really get into Jack's final moments because I was just thinking "Man. If only he didn't hotbox the men's restroom eight years ago."

Just to make it clear, this isn't a knock on Jack. It's just me expressing my disappointment that I really couldn't take the plot seriously after I found out that 12 deaths plus however many died in the meltdown plus the millions of displaced people were all caused by a guy locking a bathroom and smoking weed.

I wouldn't say this ruins the game, though. I loved the cast and I'm still reading through FTEs even as I type this because they're all just great. But I just really wanted to express myself to people that aren't that private Google doc I dump my life's grievances into.
Re: Danganronpa F4 Post-Game ThreadTopic%20Title
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GM burnout is one hell of a drug
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This CYOA follows Vesti Gates and Lauren Tehra, two detectives who search for the truth, whether in their own dimension or otherwise.

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Don't do GM Burnout in a public bathroom.
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I don't really think that's an unpopular opinion, Doot. Don't worry about "holding back" unless it's distasteful.
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CaptainPancakes wrote:
I don't really think that's an unpopular opinion, Doot. Don't worry about "holding back" unless it's distasteful.

Fair enough. It's just I didn't really see anyone mention it here and I was starting to wonder if I really was the only one thinking "okay but the weed thing was kinda dum"
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DootDootDoot wrote:
CaptainPancakes wrote:
I don't really think that's an unpopular opinion, Doot. Don't worry about "holding back" unless it's distasteful.

Fair enough. It's just I didn't really see anyone mention it here and I was starting to wonder if I really was the only one thinking "okay but the weed thing was kinda dum"


i mentioned it why u ignore me see me behind the playground after school
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Yeah I think Panda mentioned it too wow Igniter you suck I can't believe you're not joining F5 I'm crying
Vesti and Lauren's Interdimensional Investigations
This CYOA follows Vesti Gates and Lauren Tehra, two detectives who search for the truth, whether in their own dimension or otherwise.

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I didn't notice because I can't read geez guys take it easy on me
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