Did Godot die at the end of 3-5?

Because the ace attorney court system uses capital punishment(aka death penalty) yes it's assumed that he will die.

aww :(

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Of course not. The death penalty has only happened with Dahlia and Manfred. While people point out phrases about how defending people is "saving their lives", I'd consider life in prison to really ruin someone's life, and dramatic exageration is hardly new to the series. Besides, Godot acted in self-defence (the defence of others clause), and, as Dahlia did attack him with the knife, he couldn't be charged with murder. He could still be an accesory or something, as he stupidly arranged a plan that got someone killed, but you can only get the death penalty (in most of the world) for murder...or, in some areas, child-rape, which certainly doesn't apply to Godot (cue irrelevant Gant jokes).

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Ahem, both are wrong really.

The thruth is, We don't know.
Although based on certain artwork ( and his role in the story), fans have speculated Godot to have died after Gs3.

I think he's dead.

At the end of the game it's kind of implied.

And seeing how he sustained an injury in the final case and he has to rely on medical machines and doctors to keep himself alive plus all of the coffee he drinks.... I don't think he'd live for too long anyway.

And besides, he made peace with himself and Mia. Does he have another reason to keep on living?

I know that's harsh, but that's how I see it.

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Dead. Not executed, just finally letting the poison finish him off.

During the investigation, he made a comment about how it takes extraordinary effort to keep him alive.
During the trial, his wound reopened - that never happens in fiction unless it's a sign the character's going to take a turn for the worse.
After the trial, he's finished what he felt he needed to do, and seen that the major motive for holding on was a mistake to begin with.

So, he has no particular reason to go on, it takes ridiculous amounts of effort to keep him going, and he's given a symbolic death wound. It all adds up to his being dead.

Especially considering the speech after the wound opened:



He has a few more lines after that (which I think was a mistake...whether he lived or died, that was a much better line for him to end on that what he did), but that's the speech of a man who's accepted imminent death.

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What Kamino Neki said.

I also don't think that Manfred was executed.
I mean, Dahlia and Terry spent 5 years on the death row before being executed, while Manfred is dead by 2-2 (which is less than a year after 1-4).

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Manfred could be exexcuted. Just because other cases took longer doesn't mean that it takes a century to kill someone. Generally, delayed executions are due to appeals, and the execution date is set during the final appeal possible. Terry's lawyer, / , probably had a good appeal, as with Dahlia, who only confessed to one crime. Generally, to close cases, all suspected crimes that can be proven are proven before someone is executed, and, as a second priority once Dahlia was in jail, this would take quite some time (she covered up pretty well, but they could at least prove what happened to , and would try to figure out the mess with Terry). Manfred is completely different. The prosecutor's office would vigorously slash down any hipe he had at not being proven guilty on two murder counts (Yanni confessed, and he could prove Manfred's guilt in the 1-4 case). They would do this to clear their reputation, and the sooner Manny is gone, the better. Thus, there would probably be no delays in killing him, as it would be a high, not low priority.

As for if Godot is alive, I still don't see why not. Wounds and poison do not necisarily interact, and the poison would almost certainly be out of him, or else he'd still be comatose. And just because he is pictured with Mia and Misty doesn't mean he's dead: he was close to Mia while she was alive, and accidentaly led Misty to her death. Therefore, they all fit together in a picture, even if one is alive. The poetic stuff he said towards the end probably means he'll live a reclusive life after his short prison sentance; he has nothing to live for, but that doesn't mean he'll die. What's all over is Dahlia; she can no longer cause harm, yet she took so many years to stop.

And it no longer takes such effort to keep him alive. It is assumed that the visor is new future-tecnology-stuff, and serves as life support. He was referring to when he was in a coma. While this would is certainly a complication, I can't see why it can't be fixed.

Logic>poetic symbolism.

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This is wrong.

Again, from the script:



Note that he's quite explicitly speaking in the present tense.

And let's look at that logically: he's been in a coma for 6 years, due to miraculously surviving a poison that's lethal in terribly low doses. His body is going to be horribly ravaged, even if he hadn't explicitly said so.



This is a work of fiction, not real life. Symbolism is logic.

In real life, symbolic-seeming events, and perfect speeches sometimes happen without meaning anything. They don't in fiction.

Wounds in fiction DO NOT reopen for no reason. They reopen to symbolize the character being on death's door, even if they don't directly contribute to the death.

Characters do not make major speeches that mean nothing. Especially not in the denouement of the story. Someone saying 'it's all over' while bleeding, especially after everything they wanted to do is wrapped up, in fiction, in the last 5 minutes of a multi-hour story, is somebody who's dying. If they're not afraid at the time, they're going to die - and have accepted it.

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Kamino Neko put it way better than me.

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I realize that it's fiction, but as I said, saying it's over doesn't necisarily refer to Godot as a human life. And while he did mention needing medical help, he did NOT explicitly say that he'd die in half a second if a squadron of doctors is not by his side. The wound reopened for symbolism, but more directly, a wound reopening could show that finally, by ending Dahlia's murder, he was feeling the emotional pain he felt as Terry died and his hand bled in the same fashion. That could easily be represented by the reopening of a wound - he never had to cope so directly with the murders since that trial until the end of 3-5. And perfect speeches? YOU were the one who so gladly pointed out that this is fiction; perfect speeches are more than commonplace: everyone but Phoenix seems to know exactly what to say, and Phoenix is only clueless when the player messes up. Godot's speech was brilliant, but it hardly proves that he's dead. He wasn't bleeding very badly when he said it's all over either, it was just the tear of blood, showing sadness. Just because the game is about murder DOES NOT mean everything represents death!

And please, stop pointing out annoying movie cliches as evidence. Cliches do not always hold, and the authors of GS believe in both symbolism AND logic (the entire basis of the gameplay), so don't disqualify my arguments because they make too much sense for you. Using logic, in this case, DOES work. When I said logic>poetry, I didn't mean that the two are exclusive, so there can be symbolism everywhere (there is) without logic being null and void. And logic says I'm right, not old cliches.

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People still going on about this?
Alright then, visual proof: (for me at least)

The picture at the end of 3-5 (as pointed out by Ceres) has dead people on top, live ones on the bottom. So...
IS GODOT DEAD?
YES.
EVERYONE HAPPY?
OF COURSE NOT WE HATE YOU BARRISTER
GOOD.

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In my opinion, the fact if he's dead or not is in the eyes of each individual, like with pairings. Some want him alive, some want him dead (mainly so he's with Mia again) .

And since it isn't a canon thing (nothing arround that definitely says "yes he's dead" or "yes he's alive") , it can be viewed either way.

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Generally, if people aren't dead, they're alive, and we don't know he's dead, and we last saw him alive sooo... HE'S ALIVE! Don't wish that a characteris dead for no good reason.

Alternate explainations of picture:
Top: Characters 3-5 revolves around
Bottom: Minor characters in 3-5
Top: People who have gone out of their way to help Maya
Bottom: Others
Top: Three characters who are especially connected in terms of plot
Bottom: People they have minor connections to (and Maya shouldn't count, she is best drawn in next to Phoenx, she's too young to fit with the three people who function as elders to her)
Top: Three characters some random artist at Capcom drew together because they look nice like that
Bottom: Six more characters, drawn for the hell of it

Is there real evidence in that picture that the op ones are dead? Or are you assuming? Are the people on the bottom suddenly all lawyers? All young women/girls who follow you around? No. Just accept that the arrangemets are not proof that anyone is someone or something that other parts of the game imply or state they aren't.

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Excuse me?
That first top one fits Maya (3-5 had almost EVERYTHING to do with her)
The second top one fits Phoenix (he tried to run through a BURNING BRIDGE for her)
The third top one fits Pearl (She's Maya's cousin and a huge factor in the whole case, especially concerning Morgan's scheme)

Of course, that doesn't really matter... What exactly the makers of T&T meant by the picture will probably forever remain unanswered, seeing how vague Capcom usually is. XD

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Nonsense.

You're attributing to him motives he's never demonstrated - giving a crap about Terry - and ignoring the actual context of the scene.

He's achieved all his goals except for the one that he's realized was wrong to begin with. He's saying 'it's all over'. His wound - which is explicitly noted as under his visor, not his hand, thus the 'tears' line - reopens.

So, the event in context: A man who required extraordinary effort to keep himself alive, accomplished everything he's been going through the effort of keeping himself going for, has a suddenly reopened a wound, and makes a speech about how it's 'all over'.



I can only assume you're deliberately missing the point, because that's not even in the same ballpark as the point, and I can't imagine you could possibly miss it that badly by accident.

Yes, perfect speeches happen all the time in fiction, that's my point.

They happen all the time, because you don't waste words, especially in the denouement of the story.

Speeches in fiction don't just happen, they have meaning. Godot isn't randomly spouting his thoughts at the moment. The writers had him say these things for a reason. They had him say them when they did for a reason. They had him say those things after his wound reopened for a reason.



The wound didn't kill him, it's a symbolic representation of his impending death, so being a small wound is an absolutely meaningless comment.

And it's not tears, it's BLOOD. 'Tears of blood' don't represent sadness. It would mean he was evil, not human...or dying. But it's not tears at all...it's just blood. So the evil and non-human aspect is void.



I've been polite with you this far, but I'm on my last nerve. Do not insult me again. I've been arguing in good faith, but I'm no longer convinced that you are.



Again, I am using logic.

I am logically interpreting what actually happens within the context of the game, narrative techniques, and standard symbolic shorthand.

I am even adding in real world logic where appropriate, but this is a work of fiction, so those 3 things are what's most important.

Any writer who's not completely incompetent will not use a symbol with a standard meaning, without intending it to be read that way.

Even if they don't want the plot to go that way, they want it to look like it will, and will explicitly avert it later.

If they wanted Godot to be alive, and still used all the blatant symbolism indicating his death, there would have been an epilogue of him in the hospital, or meeting with Nick, or at Mia's grave, etc.

For the record: Things I have not claimed, though you keep harping on them like they mean something:

I have not claimed that the wound killed him.
I have not claimed that he keeled over as soon as the trail was over.
I have not claimed that logic is meaningless.

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Last edited by Kamino Neko on Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:20 am, edited 3 times in total.

Accidental double post.

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I think he is still alive.

An epilogue of him wouldn't have really fit, and how it ended in court was so much better. Besides, he was probably arrested.

If he was in such bad shape, I don't think the doctors would have let him go at all.

As for the drawing, how else could it have been? Just two people up top would not have been quite right, yet Godot really didn't quite fit in at the bottom. I view the top as the "previous generation" or "the ones who came before us", the "teachers". Godot fit in better with Mia and Misty, as he was from the past as well. Godot came back from a long coma, Misty came back after years of having been missing, and Mia came back from the great beyond-all figures of the past fighting for closure in some way.

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If he didn't care about Terry at all, why was he upset in 3-4? Shoulnd't he then have thought "oh well, he killed himself so who cares"? He certainly DID care. He was horrified by those events and was willing to give his life to set it all right. That's different than dying after he succeeded in stopping Dahlia. And, as was pointed out in the trial, the wound had to be under his visor, both so what Maya saw was correct and so that the wound wasn't noticable. As TheSteelSamurai pointed out, Godot probably wasn't in critical condition, and I don't remember him explicitly saying the visor is life support, so something under his visor doesn'tmake it death-related (if that'swhat you're saying). The line about "regular servicing", while in the present tense, did not prove that he's on his death bed. He's probably getting better as time goes on, and, given the state he was in, he probably needs tons of medicine and regular appointments with the doctors who kept him alive, as opposed to operations or long-term IV treatment through his visor and month-long hospital stays or whatever else you think he could be talking about. Recall that Godot is rarely literal, so that quote could be an exageration and fit his character better because of it. The visor represents his new self, Godot, as opposed to Diego. He revealed his true name, shedding his new identity, right before his legendary speech.

I never said that Godot's speech is random at all. I can only assume you're deliberately missing the point, because that's not even in the same ballpark as the point, and I can't imagine you could possibly miss it that badly by accident. Of course he said what he said for a reason. His famous line in 3-4 was that lawyers don't cry until it's all over. What was all over were the events of 3-4, which itself concluded showing a drop of blood, which he himself compared to a tear if it wasn't clear. Again, the authors weren't going to stupidly ignore logic by making Diego bleed from the forehead for no reason - it needed an explanation, and so his hand was convienent and made sense, even if its symbolic importance was slightly lessened as a result. He was hurt, physically AND mentally in the aftermath of 3-4, meaning that the wound can represent his mental state, his great pain from seeing Dahlia smile as she left the stand. His new persona, Godot, was created by him suppressing his feelings on a case that affected every major character of the series and especially him. Indeed, his personality is more different as Godot than his physical appearance. And believe it or not, suppressed feelings of trauma, even in adults, is a leading cause of personality disorders in the REAL WORLD. Is the game deep enough to be symbolic but not deep enough to bring real-world issues in?



If you're trying to say "he'll die eventually", than why are we debating this? Everybody dies. What we both, I believe, mean is "will he die shortly, if not immediately, after the trial?". If the wound didn't kill him, nor the poison, what could have? LOGICALLY, he needs a cause of death. A bloody wound may be a symbol for death in some works, but I've never seen it written up in some definative list of cliches that everything follows and must therefore follow. I've already said it could be a symbol for so much else, and I've conceded that he'll probably never return to normal life, and that he'll life reclusively, accepting what happened for once and not dying. He does not need to see doctors so much at this point to live, as his obviously-not-fatal wound and visor will be fixed whille he's in jail for accesory to murder. This will leave him relatively healthy, at least to the point where he can live alone. And don't suggest suicide, as he was too upset over Terry's death (yes he was) to also let himself die due to Dahlia. He survived, and that's no unfortunate mistake. At this point, all I'm confused about is if you desperately want him to die, as death never happens for no reason. You can't die by passively accepting death. Yes, even in fiction. Did he die due to a fanbase of doom killing him? An epilouge would be improper after a closing speech so epic (as pointed out, so was the best cofee ever scene), but a closing speech, meant to end his role in the games permanently, is not referring to him as a person dropping dead. He will never again do anything involving Phoenix and those trials, closing his importance. That does not make him dead, unless this entire thread is one huge analogy for "will we ever see Godot again?".

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The wound that opened up was the one Dahlia gave him a couple days before the trial, though.O_o It couldn't have been anything that serious, considering his quick recovery and how he seemed fine when we met him. Since they didn't show us the wound, I viewed it opening as both a way to show us it really was there and to make him look cool as he "cried".

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APOLLO PUNCH!

Okay, back on topic.
While I don't want him to die, because he is freakin' awesome, i do believe he dies after that trial. He said it himself that he only came back to challenge Phoenix and get revenge for Mia, and now all fo that's settled so he can finally be at peace. And the best coffee he's ever tasted reminds me of the saying that people are most alive right before they die. And Godot never says anything he doens't mean, so when he cried and I saw the blood, I thought he would die right there, like Terry in the previous trial. I just guess Capcom aren't that cruel with their fans.

On a side note, "Red" not existing in Godot's world is profound. After all, one of the colours associated primarily with love is red. So it may also mean that he can never bring himself to love anyone again, after Mia, and everything that had happened. Justa thought.

As I said, symbolism is fine. But why must he die because he spoke metaphorically? He still does need a cause of death. I figured that he would just life out the rest of his life alone, no longer caring about that one trial of 3-4, but no longer able to face the world at large, despite no longer holding such grudges.

First person here to tell me a plausible and "symbolically accurate" cause of death will get the honor of getting me to concede that my arguments are not totally flawless. And, as I've shown, there is no higher honor;)

And red is associated with both love and death (blood, as Godot said himself). Good point, but hardly worthy of killing a guy.

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Objection!

Of course he wasn't executed. He didn't even kill out of malicious intent -- sure, it wasn't self-defense, it was defense of another, namely Maya.

However, sadly, I doubt he lived much long after the end of the case. IIRC he said something about it taking extraordinary effort to keep him alive -- I doubt he'd have the will to put in much effort after he had made peace with all the things he had left to do in the world. The threat of Dahlia is gone, he made peace with Mia, settled things with Phoenix... etc. Though it may seem silly, logically all the coffee he drinks wouldn't let him live longer either -- I also remember him saying something about at least 14 cups a day, hardly something a regular human should do on a day-to-day basis. It's just too much caffeine. ...Though things like this I doubt would apply in the PW world. xD

Also, at the very end of the last case, he shed "tears" and stated (as he had before) "a lawyer can't cry until it's all over" (or something like that). I think the "all over" went to the extreme, backed by the evidence that his "tears" was blood from his wound.

I think the metaphor was an allusion to it -- that's not my personal main reason for why he died, though some may think of the metaphor as it. My main reason for thinking he died is because he stated himself that it took extreme effort to keep him alive anyway, and he had accomplished what he wanted to in the world -- he really had nothing left (Mia and Dahlia were both dead, the woman he loved and the woman he hated). And as for your last couple of sentences, he really just doesn't strike me as someone who would live around without a good reason. ^^;

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Godot admitted himself that seeing Dahlia Hawthorn caused him so much anger that he picked up the blade and stabbed her. Plus, a fatal wound was not needed, only at least soemthing that would restrain her, and because Dhalia has a frail body, it would'nt take much for someone with Godot's physical strength to restrain her.

PEOPLE DON'T DIE JUST BECAUSE THEY HAVE NOTHING TO LIVE FOR! This repetitive argument has annoyed me so much that my last resort is to use capital letters to make it clear.

As already said, he probably no longer needs such intense treatment to actually live, and he'll probably recover even more while under surveilance during his 5 or so years in prison (I think it's fairly clear that he'll get a short sentance, as it was really only exessive force in self-defense, or as an accesory for setting up the plan in the first place which got Misty killed. But he still got someone killer, so five years seems plausible.) Therefore, he'll be fine, if not insanely healthy, and live for no short time afterwards.

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Again, the "wound" was just a minor gash on his face-nothing life-threatening.

I highly doubt he would get anything serious for that murder, given the circumstances. Dahlia may very well be frail, but she was also armed and about to kill. Also, it was dark. And you forget the most important thing-she was not in her own body-she was in Misty's. While channeling does cause physical changes, who knows just what extent in this case, and Godot might not have even known that.

And if he just died because he'd lost Mia, what kind of message is he sending to Maya?

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anime, manga, novels, games all disagree


entirely conjecture

there is no evidence pointing to him still being alive
there is very little pointing to him being dead

stop arguing.