So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
Mystic Lawyer
Gender: Female
Rank: Decisive Witness
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:51 am
Posts: 250
Well, what do you guys think?
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
見たのか・・・！
Gender: Female
Location: London, England
Rank: Ace Attorney
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:17 am
Posts: 4782
Mysticgamer wrote:
Blaming Phoenix for not taking care of Mia? What did he really think that Mia hired Phoenix to baby sit her?
I think that was more that he was angry that he hadn't been able to protect her himself, so he took it out on Phoenix. I dunno.
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
Rookie
Gender: Female
Location: The US of A
Rank: Medium-in-training
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 5:34 pm
Posts: 508
I think his "fault" is what makes him an appealing character, though, or at least an interesting one. And he did seem to come around in the end and realize his own botched logic.
Avvie image by Sklarvv.
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
What if i don't want a custom title?
Gender: Female
Location: Hiding in Brandon Flowers' sweet lil mustache
Rank: Medium-in-training
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:32 pm
Posts: 364
xxAll credit for my sig goes to Elriel.xx
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
*jazz hands*
Gender: Male
Location: Mask DeMasque's Hideout
Rank: Desk Jockey
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:46 am
Posts: 73
Hey, Diego, can you help me with th-
gb2kitchen
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
見たのか・・・！
Gender: Female
Location: London, England
Rank: Ace Attorney
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:17 am
Posts: 4782
<3 him anyway :P
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
Desert rose, why do you live alone?
Gender: Male
Location: Fife, WA
Rank: Prosecutor
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:13 pm
Posts: 858
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
Teh insane Arteest
Gender: Female
Location: Beneath the sky and above the ground
Rank: Prosecutor
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 3:27 pm
Posts: 744
At the same time he's so awesome, I just want to hug him until he suffocates.
DX
Why are there always characters like that? o-o XD
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
見たのか・・・！
Gender: Female
Location: London, England
Rank: Ace Attorney
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:17 am
Posts: 4782
Quandtuniverse wrote:
Godot is a BASTARD. I want to kick him in the face.
At the same time he's so awesome, I just want to hug him until he suffocates.
DX
Why are there always characters like that? o-o XD
At the same time he's so awesome, I just want to hug him until he suffocates.
DX
Why are there always characters like that? o-o XD
He's awesome BECAUSE he's a bastard :P
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
Teh insane Arteest
Gender: Female
Location: Beneath the sky and above the ground
Rank: Prosecutor
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 3:27 pm
Posts: 744
xylophone220 wrote:
Quandtuniverse wrote:
Godot is a BASTARD. I want to kick him in the face.
At the same time he's so awesome, I just want to hug him until he suffocates.
DX
Why are there always characters like that? o-o XD
At the same time he's so awesome, I just want to hug him until he suffocates.
DX
Why are there always characters like that? o-o XD
He's awesome BECAUSE he's a bastard :P
True >:3
I'm a sucker for that kind of character. XD
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
見たのか・・・！
Gender: Female
Location: London, England
Rank: Ace Attorney
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:17 am
Posts: 4782
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
the Rock Pokemon
Gender: Male
Rank: Decisive Witness
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:15 pm
Posts: 213
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
What a Day. . .
Gender: Male
Location: OH, Chillin
Rank: Ace Attorney
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:10 am
Posts: 1160
Geodude wrote:
Anyone who can fearlessly stand up to Franziska can't be that bad of a character. :p
True (Edgeworth just shuts her down), but Godot made so many stupid mistakes along the that he should have learned from. I still call him stupid for what he did, he could have avoided getting Maya's mother killed and getting himself placed into a coma if he just stopped to think a little.
. . . . .but he is extremely awesome somehow. The Gerodi visors must place a trance over everything.
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
True love is forever.
Gender: Female
Rank: Ace Attorney
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:55 am
Posts: 2182
Proud Supporter of Phoenix/Iris, Ron/Dessie, Klavier/Ema, and Apollo/Vera
Fanfics Updated-12/25
Fanfics Updated-12/25
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
見たのか・・・！
Gender: Female
Location: London, England
Rank: Ace Attorney
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:17 am
Posts: 4782
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
I like a man with a big ... vocabulary.
Gender: Female
Location: Made in England (More Tea, Vicar?)
Rank: Ace Attorney
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:20 pm
Posts: 1193
But then y'know a lot of that may be down to personal experience and sense of humour etc.
"Independence is my happiness, and I view things as they are, without regard to place or person; my country is the world, and my religion is to do good". - Thomas Paine
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
I'm in your skies; raeping your balloons
Gender: None specified
Rank: Medium-in-training
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:18 am
Posts: 561
I just hated his fuzzy logic in the last case. I mean, he swung a dead body underneath a burning bridge with nothing but the rope it's tied to (which dropped the body promptly at the end of its swing). Physics be damned!
Not to mention wouldn't have simply picking up Pearl at any point of time in the main hall be the easiest solution? Or removing the letter which he read in the first place?
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
見たのか・・・！
Gender: Female
Location: London, England
Rank: Ace Attorney
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:17 am
Posts: 4782
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
Mmm, bacon.
Gender: Female
Location: The Broodwich Dimension
Rank: Ace Attorney
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:25 pm
Posts: 1119
Byakko wrote:
I just hated his fuzzy logic in the last case. I mean, he swung a dead body underneath a burning bridge with nothing but the rope it's tied to (which dropped the body promptly at the end of its swing). Physics be damned!
He's Godot. He doesn't need physics. How d'you think he throws his mug with such precision that the coffee stays in it until it lands perfectly on Nick's forehead? :P
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
見たのか・・・！
Gender: Female
Location: London, England
Rank: Ace Attorney
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:17 am
Posts: 4782
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
I'm in your skies; raeping your balloons
Gender: None specified
Rank: Medium-in-training
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:18 am
Posts: 561
CockatriceWright wrote:
Byakko wrote:
I just hated his fuzzy logic in the last case. I mean, he swung a dead body underneath a burning bridge with nothing but the rope it's tied to (which dropped the body promptly at the end of its swing). Physics be damned!
He's Godot. He doesn't need physics. How d'you think he throws his mug with such precision that the coffee stays in it until it lands perfectly on Nick's forehead? :P
Speed, man, SPEED. That cup was going at ludicrous speed and could phase through solid objects (explains why noone on the witness chair ever gets hit).
And the mug sticks on Nick's head because of his own hair-gel!
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
Gender: Female
Location: Finlalaland~
Rank: Ace Attorney
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:54 am
Posts: 1001
xylophone220 wrote:
...Need picture of Godot doing jazz hands now >.<
Ha ha ha ha :D He's the least you'd expect it from.
Quote:
That cup was going at ludicrous speed and could phase through solid objects (explains why noone on the witness chair ever gets hit).
Uh oh, I think someone needs to take a look at the courtroom sprite again.
Quote:
And the mug sticks on Nick's head because of his own hair-gel!
He doesn't use hair-gel, the hair is like that naturally. He says that in 3-2.
On-topic: Godot is such a huggable bastard and I do like pricks. I don't view him as a normal human, though. I say he's mentally damaged due to his nervous system being damaged by the poison and the coma he stayed in. No human can be normal after such a ride, no, just no.
Last edited by Happiness Punch! on Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
PWnut
Gender: Male
Location: Chicago
Rank: Suspect
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 4:12 am
Posts: 48
Spoiler:
Imagine if **warning***
Spoiler:
In the end, Phoenix is still one of my favorite characters, which may seem 'duh', but really, such an honest guy and a funny one who will still keep to himself. He's a real 'hero', one who isn't perfect but sticks to his convictions even when
Spoiler:
I also don't think Godot is sexist, just an asshole/arrogant sometimes/most the time.
Really, if he calls women by their pet names, he also asks a pretty lady their name and occupation, just as he calls Wright 'Trite'.
Plus, jazz is never really sexist, Godot, like coffee and jazz, are really smooth. His music suits his sad, yet strong/'smooth' (only way I can describe it) personality perfectly.
Last edited by von-tesm on Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
見たのか・・・！
Gender: Female
Location: London, England
Rank: Ace Attorney
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:17 am
Posts: 4782
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
nuuuuu, stoooooop
Gender: Female
Location: America
Rank: Admin
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:16 am
Posts: 5255
Sure, he admitted he was wrong - AFTER Phoenix had nailed him. He had lost. Admitting defeat after he's been beaten doesn't make him courageous, or mean he gained some sudden self-awareness. Even Karma and Gant accepted their fates after having been snared.
It's like watching Cheaters! If the cheating party admits to cheating only after Joey waves the tape in his face, that is just as much an act of cowardice as lying in the first place. Especially in Godot's case, since it led quite beautifully into the "Godot Pity Party" where not a single person in the courtroom condemned him for what he had done.
If Godot really had an ounce of courage, morality, or decency in his body, he would have confessed long before putting Maya up on the stand. He had to have known that it was the wrong thing to do, to put her through that just to prolonge his battle with Phoenix (which was pointless anyway, considering how many times Phoenix had ALREADY beaten him, and...he kind of threw their match anyway. What was the point of using Maya as a tool, if he wasn't even going to let Phoenix fight on his own power?).
Holding out until the last possible moment, and then crying about it for sympathy, hardly makes someone a tragic hero.
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
I'm in your skies; raeping your balloons
Gender: None specified
Rank: Medium-in-training
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:18 am
Posts: 561
Quote:
Holding out until the last possible moment, and then crying about it for sympathy, hardly makes someone a tragic hero.
Technically, he was bleeding, but he makes a melodrama out of his colour-blindness so it's metaphorical crying.
Honestly though, apparently, Mia said it was a'okay to put her sister in a traumatic and life-threatening situation, not once, but TWO times. Mia knew about Godot from Maya, and prolly could have communicated with her mom now on the other side, and STILL, she's fine with it.
Obviously, Godot and Mia are just MADE for each other. Screwing with people's minds...
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
PWnut
Gender: Male
Location: Chicago
Rank: Suspect
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 4:12 am
Posts: 48
I mean, Achilles did the exact same thing, where he didn't fight and by doing so lost the lives of many comrades, but didn't think anything of it until his friend Patriklos died.
Then again, Godot gave Phoenix obvious hints as to how to find contradictions. Although the set up seems similar to von-karma's own trial, where they are both cool and collected til right before they are caught, nonetheless, I think there can be cause for pity in Godot more than Karma, for even though revenge was on both their minds, I could see Godot's as more realistic.
However as to 'if he realizes his mistake'...maybe... I think it's possible, but I see where you're coming from. he says he doesn't know if he killed out of love or out of revenge... I think the latter moreso, but then again we'd have to analyze the actual situation a little deeper.
I like to think he's a tragic character more because of what he's been made into by accidentals and has that wrestle with his inner-self, and in the end shows some remorese because his best coffee is after he has helped send his greatest enemy to the hereafter and he himself is lifted of the burden of revenge and hiding it. I still think he intended to get caught, but couldn't just do it himself (since he still had a vengeful heart against Phoenix).
That's only the short of it though.
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
nuuuuu, stoooooop
Gender: Female
Location: America
Rank: Admin
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:16 am
Posts: 5255
Byakko wrote:
Honestly though, apparently, Mia said it was a'okay to put her sister in a traumatic and life-threatening situation, not once, but TWO times. Mia knew about Godot from Maya, and prolly could have communicated with her mom now on the other side, and STILL, she's fine with it.
Obviously, Godot and Mia are just MADE for each other. Screwing with people's minds...
Obviously, Godot and Mia are just MADE for each other. Screwing with people's minds...
Ugh, Mia's just as bad sometimes. She has always shown that she's more interested in training Phoenix as a lawyer than caring about her own flesh and blood. I guess it's no surprise she doesn't give a second thought to playing along with Godot's silly little game. "Sure you killed my mom in a fit of rage, but...that's okay! Feel free to tease my starved and hypothermic sister now, kthnx."
Maybe that's how they were attracted in the first place after all. Their mutual lack of concern over Maya!
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
True love is forever.
Gender: Female
Rank: Ace Attorney
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:55 am
Posts: 2182
Proud Supporter of Phoenix/Iris, Ron/Dessie, Klavier/Ema, and Apollo/Vera
Fanfics Updated-12/25
Fanfics Updated-12/25
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
spr fckn srs peepz
Gender: Male
Location: Boucherville, Quebec, Canada
Rank: Ace Attorney
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:34 pm
Posts: 2422
Croik wrote:
No offense to anyone, but I seriously don't buy this "he realized his mistakes at the end" mantra.
It's not so much "He realized his mistakes." more than it was a "What the fuck have I done? Man, I am a FUCKING IDIOT." Kinda like a mental slap on the forehead. The realization that his entire crusade against Phoenix was completely futile and stupid can't be done entirely in court.
He'll realize them further on, in jail/in hell.
Quote:
Sure, he admitted he was wrong - AFTER Phoenix had nailed him. He had lost. Admitting defeat after he's been beaten doesn't make him courageous, or mean he gained some sudden self-awareness. Even Karma and Gant accepted their fates after having been snared.
It's like watching Cheaters! If the cheating party admits to cheating only after Joey waves the tape in his face, that is just as much an act of cowardice as lying in the first place. Especially in Godot's case, since it led quite beautifully into the "Godot Pity Party" where not a single person in the courtroom condemned him for what he had done.
It's like watching Cheaters! If the cheating party admits to cheating only after Joey waves the tape in his face, that is just as much an act of cowardice as lying in the first place. Especially in Godot's case, since it led quite beautifully into the "Godot Pity Party" where not a single person in the courtroom condemned him for what he had done.
I disagree with you. He IS pitiful. However, not in the way the game portrays him. On one hand, it sucked what happened to him - being poisoned, and tossed into a coma is no joke, and waking up to nothing has to be amongst the worst things you can experience psychologically. HOWEVER, from that moment on, he made mistake after mistake after mistake after mistake. From the moment he stopped being Diego Armando, he started to be a complete fucking idiot. His "pity party" wasn't planned so much as inevitable. He is a "tragic hero" in the Greek theater sense - He feels forced by "the gods" to do the mistakes he does. He's a goddamned dumbass who doesn't deserve half the love he gets from the courtroom in his pity party. For me, it's not "Boo hoo Godot goes to jail." more than "I pity you for being that stupid."
Quote:
Holding out until the last possible moment, and then crying about it for sympathy, hardly makes someone a tragic hero.
I've answered this in my other part, but he is a tragic "something". Ultimately, he makes every single wrong decision possible because he feels forced to. I recall you recounted the sheer amount of times he could have stopped it : He could have burned the letter since he got to it before Pearl did, he could have had Misty convince Pearl not to do it, etc. etc. However, he does none of those things, and instead puts Maya in danger in order to save her. Congrats Godot, you're an idiot. After 3-5, Godot becomes irredeemable, and that, there, is probably what drives people to like him. He WANTS to repent after getting busted (unlike von Karma and Gant, who accept their fates, but pretty much shrug their shoulders about the whole thing, they'd do it again in a heartbeat if they had the chance), but after what he did, redemption is just impossible for him.
The thing is, we'll never know 'cause he probably dies in prison before his execution. I can't think someone who's THAT battered down can live a long life - especially not after getting slashed in the freaking HEAD.
http://vanderlund.blogspot.com - Because the only fantasy worlds I like are those I write myself.
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
I'm in your skies; raeping your balloons
Gender: None specified
Rank: Medium-in-training
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:18 am
Posts: 561
Mia_Fey wrote:
He makes a comment to Franziska about how she should know her place and to leave things to the "big boys" at one point during the investigation. He also makes a few smaller ones as his former self as I recall, but I don't have quotes. What pissed me off more was the implication that Mia and Maya needed to be protected by a man and where incapable of taking care of themselves. His story was that Mia took off after a dangerous man and as the only man around, it was Phoenix's responsibilty to protect her despite the fact that, as far as we know, she told Phoenix nothing about any of what was going on. He almost made Mia sound like a willful child who needed to be protected from herself rather than a talented attorney in her own right who was perfectly capable of taking care of herself and making her own decisions. Perhaps he simply didn't want to blame Mia herself for her death, but then there was no reason that he couldn't blame the man who killed her. He went out of his way to blame Phoenix because he was a man around at the time. He even says at the end when he is confessing (badly paraphrased quote to follow) "I ignored the most important 'man' in your life" to Maya. I do think he should have told Phoenix about Morgan's plan, but not because Phoenix was a man but because he was an important part of her life and should have been involved. There is more, but I don't want to root through the game to find them. I think it was more blatant in 3-5 and it pissed me off royally.
You know what? He was sexist before sure, but as Godot, his sexism is his extreme reaction to being 'bitch-slapped' by a girl who carries a parasol around indoors and attracts butterflies!
Death by poison that came in a big plasticy heart-bottle necklace!
The most-un-masculine-death-EVA!
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
PWnut
Gender: Male
Location: Chicago
Rank: Suspect
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 4:12 am
Posts: 48
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
nuuuuu, stoooooop
Gender: Female
Location: America
Rank: Admin
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:16 am
Posts: 5255
Phoenix, Maya, Mia, Iris, even the Judge - no one calls Godot an idiot. No one accuses him of being selfish, sexist, and just plain stupid. In fact, they all rush to defend him. When Godot turns on his heel and goes from "Ha ha, you're a dummy who can't solve anything!" to "I'm sorry I was so wrong it was dumb of me PITY ME PLZ" everyone falls all over each other trying to stick up for him and tell him it wasn't his fault.
But it WAS his fault, and because the game makes no effort to reinforce that idea, he comes off as being sympathetic, even admirable.
If there's anything more annoying to me than Godot himself, it's the fact that everyone is so eager not only to forgive him, but to put him on a pedastool for "saving Maya" when that was never his real intention in the first place.
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
Mmm, bacon.
Gender: Female
Location: The Broodwich Dimension
Rank: Ace Attorney
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:25 pm
Posts: 1119
Mia_Fey wrote:
He makes a comment to Franziska about how she should know her place and to leave things to the "big boys" at one point during the investigation. He also makes a few smaller ones as his former self as I recall, but I don't have quotes. What pissed me off more was the implication that Mia and Maya needed to be protected by a man and where incapable of taking care of themselves. His story was that Mia took off after a dangerous man and as the only man around, it was Phoenix's responsibilty to protect her despite the fact that, as far as we know, she told Phoenix nothing about any of what was going on. He almost made Mia sound like a willful child who needed to be protected from herself rather than a talented attorney in her own right who was perfectly capable of taking care of herself and making her own decisions. Perhaps he simply didn't want to blame Mia herself for her death, but then there was no reason that he couldn't blame the man who killed her. He went out of his way to blame Phoenix because he was a man around at the time. He even says at the end when he is confessing (badly paraphrased quote to follow) "I ignored the most important 'man' in your life" to Maya. I do think he should have told Phoenix about Morgan's plan, but not because Phoenix was a man but because he was an important part of her life and should have been involved. There is more, but I don't want to root through the game to find them. I think it was more blatant in 3-5 and it pissed me off royally.
Regarding Mia's death, he really pretty much came off to me as protective and feeling like he should've done something... like when one of my pets dies, I feel like I should've been able to prevent it... remember, Mia was the one he cared the most about, and he wanted to make sure nothing bad happened to her, but she'd been murdered while he was in the coma. Sadly, though, he handled his emotions in a way that led to some pretty stupid decisions and messed-up logic...
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
Gender: Female
Rank: Desk Jockey
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:31 pm
Posts: 120
Mia_Fey wrote:
Perhaps he simply didn't want to blame Mia herself for her death, but then there was no reason that he couldn't blame the man who killed her. He went out of his way to blame Phoenix because he was a man around at the time.
He could've blamed Redd White, sure, but what good would it have done him? He needed to blame Phoenix - needed to blame someone living and not imprisoned, that he could have gotten actual revenge upon. He needed someone to hate, a goal to keep him going, or he wouldn't have known what to do with himself. Deep down, he may have known the foolishness of it all along, but only admitted it to himself and others at the end.
And to be fair, let's remember that Mia herself WAS a little careless in her pursuit of Redd White. She says so herself right before he goes in for the kill. And Maya, well... for her part, she definitely needs SOMEONE looking after her. I think that's indisputable at this point. XD
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
Contradiction
Gender: None specified
Rank: Desk Jockey
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 1:30 am
Posts: 78
And it 'is' true that Phoenix's lawyering style is to depend on pretty girls to save the day (yes,
= pretty girl). At the very least, Godot was justified in resenting Phoenix for that. Even if his other reasons are based on flawed assumptions.
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
Gender: Female
Rank: Desk Jockey
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:31 pm
Posts: 120
The whole thing with defending Dahlia and helping her hide the poison is somewhat justified too - in the "Good GOD, you're such an IDIOT!" way. xD And really, Phoenix did behave like a complete moron in 3-1. So I can't really blame him there. He just didn't realize that his foe had matured and smartened up in the interim.
As for Mia not seeming to care about Maya, and care more about training Phoenix as a lawyer... let's take ourselves out of the story for a second and remember that these are games, and the creators didn't want to have the solution just dumped in our laps - we needed to figure things out ourselves. From that perspective, it makes more sense. Really, wouldn't you feel gypped if you'd put in all the work to figure everything else up to that point and then have the satisfaction of realizing what the final piece of the puzzle was for yourself yanked away from you like that? I sure would.
Re: So that Godot's big secret? SPOILERS
Mystic Lawyer
Gender: Female
Rank: Decisive Witness
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:51 am
Posts: 250
If he really cared all he needed to do is knock out Misty then have Maya Imprison her until help arrives then Maya could have been saved and she could have seen her mom for the first time since she was a baby.
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum
News
Site map
SitemapIndex
RSS Feed