The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:16 am

Crimewave

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At the end of case 5, Godot says something about Misty "paying the ultimate price" if need be. I'm assuming he means her taking her own life, but that would be impossible if Dahlia was in her body. Maybe she means killing Pearl and herself so no one can channel Dahlia?

Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:18 am

Wrestlemania

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I think it was that she was willing to risk her own life protecting Maya, in terms of attempting to stop Dahlia, in Pearls' body, in order to save her daughter... But I'll re-read that section.

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Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:20 am

Franzise Deauxnim

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I figured it means she gave Godot permission to skewer her if she couldn't control Dollie.

Nevermind, my idea is stupid. What Wrestle said.

Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:41 am

Mia_Fey

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I can't remember the exact context, but I think it was about killing Pearl and may have been slightly about her own life (I think it was more about Pearl though). The whole plan was idiotic (I won't go into my reasoning here because I've ranted about this in other threads so it makes little sense to repeat myself), but Misty brings the sword with her and keeps it with her. If Pearl couldn't be stopped, the Misty must have meant to use the staff on Pearl and despite how callous Misty was, I doubt she would have wanted to murder a little girl (so why Misty was too much a chicken to tell people who could actually help... no, I promised I wouldn't rant). Doing this would also have hurt Maya as well, so there is another reason Misty wouldn't have wanted to go through with it. The plan was never for Misty to channel Dahlia as they were simply trying to get Pearl not to channel her that night, but she does so Pearl can't. I assumed that she did this so that she would not have to use the sword on Pearl. I would say killing an innocent little girl counts as an "ultimate price." Godot couldn't have counted on using the sword because it was with Misty and had Misty not channeled Dahlia or had Dahlia thrown the staff aside (considering she didn't know the staff's significance), then Godot wouldn't have had it and had Dahlia figured out the staff's significance then she would have used it herself. Had Misty planned to channel Dahlia, I can't imagine she would have carried the staff with her. As I said, had Dahlia found out about it then they were arming her. Had the staff been for Godot to use, then he should have had it from the beginning. I assume the ultimate price was that if things got out of control and they couldn't stop Pearl from channeling Dahlia, then Pearl would have to die (*deep breath*... no ranting, no ranting, no ranting- OK I feel better now :edgy:

). If I'm remembering the context correctly, I think that is what was meant.

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Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:52 am

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......... too....... many....... words...... no...... segmenting....... *faints*

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Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:13 am

Mia_Fey

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Sorry about that. I do tend to like my rants, don't I. :nick:

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Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:01 am

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Actually, I am a fan of DL-6's The Golden Gavel, so it's not that...

But my glasses broke a couple of days ago, and I can't read it without straining my eyes.

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Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:49 am

Franzise Deauxnim

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Okay, the plan was King Failure, but I really, really hope Misty didn't mean she was willing to murder little Pearl, even if it was to save her own daughter... I can't think of any other explanation as to why Misty was carrying a sword around, though...

Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:22 pm

GodotFan

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i would have thought it would obviously mean misty dying...

Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:39 pm

DaemonForce

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Misty was such a filthy cow. :nick:

Seriously. What's wrong with this for a plan?
Step 1: Restrain with rope/cage/chains...whatever.
Step 2: Channel Dahlia for 24 hours.
Step 3: Steal Morgan's letter and burn it.

Or better yet, just step 3 before any of this has a chance of happening. =/

It sounds too stupid to be true. The problem with this is the question it raises: Why did Misty need to go through all that trouble? Either she had her own pride to deal with and some problem with the branch families or something happened that she wasn't expecting. I'm too tired to think of this right now though. :nick:

Lana_Skyes_Heart wrote:

SO I was stuck all day inside the changing room with nothing but a glued on bra.

Panty thief strikes again! :-P

Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:55 pm

Franzise Deauxnim

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Well, Misty did mention something about being too ashamed to reveal her identity after the DL-6 fiasco.

Godot should have stepped up to the plate, though.

Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:20 pm

Mia_Fey

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To be fair though, had her biggest concern truly been her daughter's safety and had she truly been as brave as they kept saying she was at the end (the whole rush to praise her at the end of the game annoyed me more than a little), then she should have gotten over it and talked to Maya. Or if she truly couldn't face Maya then she should have spoken to Phoenix (who she met and had to realize from their behavior they they were close friends). She didn't have to go along with Godot's fixation on beating Phoenix. As was mentioned earlier, she could have locked herself in a room or had Godot or Iris lock her in and channel Dahlia, which would have allowed her to continue to be a coward and never face her daughter while still keping her safe or any number of other safer options. Instead she puts both Pearl and Maya in serious danger because not only was she a coward but she was an idiot... can you tell that I'm not a fan of Misty? :gant:

In reference to an earlier comment, I have trouble believing the comment was in reference to Misty's life because of the reasons I already stated about the staff (I think the comment was made about how far Misty was willing to go to protect Maya and that she was even willing to use that staff. Since Misty was the one holding it, she was the only one who could have used it and since she would have lost control after channeling Dahlia, she couldn't have meant to channel Dahlia and then use it on herself because she had to realize, with as much experience as she should have had as the Master, she wouldn't retain control. A medium's spirit is pushed out when she channels someone, so Misty wasn't Misty anymore by the time of the crime and had no control over herself). Also, had it ever been a part of the plan for Misty to channel Dahlia, then Godot's comment about how he knew that it could have been either Misty or Pearl shouldn't have included Pearl as an option because Misty's powers were supreme. Had the plan ever included Misty channeling Dahlia, then Godot should have said that he knew the person in front of him had to be Misty but he doesn't. He found out what Misty did afterward, but the fact that Godot thought that it could have been Pearl at all means that Misty's actions were not planned in advance.
Edit: I need to control my rants better...

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Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:25 pm

Franzise Deauxnim

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I thought it was implied in 2-2 that a skilled medium could retain control of a channelled spirit. Misty could have just severly underestimated Dollie's RAWR VENGENCE willpower.

Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:47 pm

Mia_Fey

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I don't think so. Maya and Mia do say distinctly that the medium's spirit is temporarily pushed out and replaced by the spirit they are channeling. I think the discretion come in when deciding who to channel and how to do it (hence the heavy door on the Channeling Chamber). If it is decided that the spirit would be violent then the medium is held responsible for attempting such a risky channeling without any precautions, but its just a theory.

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Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Tue Jan 01, 2008 7:13 am

Gomez&MorticiaForevr

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Tsk tsk tsk...

Directly from 2-2-

:tea:

An experienced medium has little problem controlling a spirit.

Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Tue Jan 01, 2008 7:27 am

Mia_Fey

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Or an experienced medium knows when not to channel someone. It's said repeatedly that mediums lose consciousness during a channeling because their spirits are replaced.

Maya from 2-2: After a spirit comes into my body, I lose my self, my consciousness.
Before Morgan says that she says: When a spirit enters a medium’s body, she loses her will and her self steps aside. To put it another way, the spirit is borrowing the medium’s body, good sir.
Mia: But that is impossible. You’ve heard it from her, I’m sure. When a medium channels, her own spirit disappears. Which means that it’s impossible for her to dream during that time.

I think its brought up in other cases (and games), but I don't want to find them all now.

So is it really that the medium keeps control or an experienced medium can sense the spirit's malevolence ahead of time and knows better or takes appropriate precautions to prevent tragedy? You already have my reading on it. :phoenix:

You also have to consider the possibility that Morgan was lying. Under all that sweetness, she hated Maya for being a part of the main family (and successor to the Master's position which she believed was rightfully hers). Phoenix knows next to nothing about all this channeling stuff and that comment makes Maya look incompetent and not worthy of the title as well. If Misty simply underestimates Dahlia, then why doesn't the original plan call for Misty to channel Dahlia instead of simply distracting Pearl? Pearl couldn't channel Dahlia as long as Misty was channeling her, so if Misty believed for a second that she could control Dahlia then that was the better idea. As Master, her powers were supreme and if anyone could have controlled Dahlia she should have been able to.

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Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Tue Jan 01, 2008 2:37 pm

Regy Rusty

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Gomez&MorticiaForevr wrote:

An experienced medium has little problem controlling a spirit.

I really think Morgan was lying here to get Maya in more trouble. After all, we never see any evidence whatsoever of mediums controlling the spirits they summon. Given the facts, particularly that Misty was supposedly the most experienced of all, I'd say that the idea that they lose all sense of self is more accurate. Darnit Misty! Why are you so reckless?

Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Tue Jan 01, 2008 3:34 pm

Gomez&MorticiaForevr

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I see now that I should've used more evidence, but in my defense, it WAS two in the morning.

Anyway, in 2-2, Maya herself seems to think that mediums can control the spirits they channel.
:maya:

I was too weak... and I... I couldn't control the spirit's power, so...

Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Tue Jan 01, 2008 4:19 pm

Mia_Fey

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And Maya trusted and loved her aunt. Particularly considering we know that Maya woke up in her aunt's arms (and they were alone at the time) it's more than possible that Morgan lied to Maya as well particularly considering there is no one there now who could have set her straight (well until she channels Mia, something Morgan couldn't know for a fact that she would do after such a traumatic experience, who would have been old enough to have been taught by Misty, who tells Phoenix that the events Maya have relayed don't make sense. Maya also doesn't realize that the fact that she had a dream is extremely strange. Her own knowledge is obviously very limited. Phoenix then tells Maya all this). Remember Maya is so certain that she's guilty that she tries to send Phoenix away at first, insisting that she was a killer and that he'd only lose if he attempted to defend her. Not only does the world think she's unfit, but Maya herself believes she is not only responsible for that mess but unfit to take up the position of Master. Morgan is a manipulative b****. Morgan is the only one to really state that (basically contradicting her earlier statement) and Morgan's words aren't trustworthy.

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Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Tue Jan 01, 2008 9:25 pm

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I'm not sure we know how much Misty really was involved in the planning of the whole thing. Mia_Fey made a few very good points regarding her (lack of) judgment, but until I see proof to the contrary, I'm going to blame most of that on Godot keeping things really close to his chest and manipulating Misty as much as he did everyone else in that case, to attempt to foil the plot in his own twisted way. The fact that she didn't come out and tell Phoenix and Maya shows she must have distrusted Phoenix and Maya or completely trusted Godot and his twisted plan, but I still like her showing massive errors in her judgment far better than actually being willing to endanger everyone. I don't really like the implications Mia_Fey's contradictions have on her character.

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Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Tue Jan 01, 2008 10:17 pm

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Question: Did Godot recruit Misty, or vice versa? And please present the EXACT quotes.

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Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:05 am

Mia_Fey

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@ Wrestle- Godot contacts Misty. When Maya hears this she asks how he found her and he answers that the government always knew where she was so contacting her wasn't an issue.

@ Quizer- Obviously, I did not like Misty. She abandoned her family and had no intention of ever contacting her worried daughter about her whereabouts despite the fact that she would likely have known what was going on with her family. We are told that Misty kept close contact with the government, so at least she should have known of her oldest daughter's death and her sister's imprisonment (plus the reason behind it I would assume).

On top of that, she seems to have played a full role in this although I am certainly not absolving Godot from his part in this too. He shares a good portion of the blame. If it makes you feel better about Misty, she channels Dahlia knowing that she can't control her. The question then is why. As far as I can tell, she was protecting Pearl. The sword shows how far she was willing to go to protect Maya (I am pissed that she even considered killing Pearl, but its seem to be implied that both Godot and Misty were willing too do just that if things went wrong. There is no reason behind Misty having the sword if she never intended to use it. If anything having a useless weapon lying around would be a danger), but when she can't find Pearl she channels Dahlia.

Let's recap what Misty knew. Godot was already in place to protect Maya just in case and he had vowed to do so at all costs. Misty had her sword which she knew she would have to use in Maya's defense if it came to that. It was certain death for Pearl to channel Dahlia because one of them would kill her (since Misty had the weapon, then Pearl would likely die at Misty's own hand). When Misty can't find Pearl, Misty channels Dahlia knowing that Pearl cannot channel Dahlia while she is channeling that spirit. If my theory on channeling is correct, Misty knew that she couldn't control Dahlia so she must have been hoping Godot would do as he swore and protect Maya, and therefore Misty channeled Dahlia to protect Pearl (Although whether or not she believed she would die is another issue. We have no way of knowing if Misty suspected Godot was so unstable and as far as we know Godot had no weapon. Misty had the sword and Dahlia had brought both the knife and the staff/sword. He didn't even realize he was going to kill until he did so). The "ultimate price" thing though was not said in reference to that, but to Misty's willingness to use the sword to protect Maya no matter what the cost, if I remember correctly. Besides channeling Dahlia was certainly not protecting Maya, but Pearl.

On the other hand, all the praise for Misty at the end pissed me off. She wasn't a hero anymore than Godot was, but they are both forgiven so easily. All the "she was so brave and strong" was just infuriating. At the very least, she was an idiot and at the worst, she was reckless and a coward fully willing to risk everyones lives including that of her daughter and niece just to avoid having to face her own mistakes. I'll leave my thoughts at that for now though.

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Last edited by Mia_Fey on Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:40 am, edited 2 times in total.

Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:14 am

Wrestlemania

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Use more spacing! Pleeeeeeeeease!!!

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Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:16 am

xylophone220

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Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:16 am

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Mia_Fey wrote:

@ Wrestle- Godot contacts Misty. When Maya hears this she asks how he found her and he answers that the government always knew where she was so contacting her wasn't an issue.
@ Quizer- Obviously, I did not like Misty. She abandoned her family and had no intention of ever contacting her worried daughter about her whereabouts despite the fact that she would likely have known what was going on with her family. We are told that Misty kept close contact with the government, so at least she should have known of her oldest daughter's death and her sister's imprisonment (plus the reason behind it I would assume). On top of that, she seems to have played a full role in this although I am certainly not absolving Godot from his part in this too. He shares a good portion of the blame. If it makes you feel better about Misty, she channels Dahlia knowing that she can't control her. The question then is why. As far as I can tell, she was protecting Pearl. The sword shows how far she was willing to go to protect Maya (I am pissed that she even considered killing Pearl, but its seem to be implied that both Godot and Misty were willing too do just that if things went wrong. There is no reason behind Misty having the sword if she never intended to use it. If anything having a useless weapon lying around would be a danger), but when she can't find Pearl she channels Dahlia. Let's recap what Misty knew. Godot was already in place to protect Maya just in case and he had vowed to do so at all costs. Misty had her sword which she knew she would have to use in Maya's defense if it came to that. It was certain death for Pearl to channel Dahlia because one of them would kill her (since Misty had the weapon, then Pearl would likely die at Misty's own hand). When Misty can't find Pearl, Misty channels Dahlia knowing that Pearl cannot channel Dahlia while she is channeling that spirit. If my theory on channeling is correct, Misty knew that she couldn't control Dahlia so she must have been hoping Godot would do as he swore and protect Maya, and therefore Misty channeled Dahlia to protect Pearl (Although whether or not she believed she would die is another issue. We have no way of knowing if Misty suspected Godot was so unstable and as far as we know Godot had no weapon. Misty had the sword and Dahlia had brought both the knife and the staff/sword. He didn't even realize he was going to kill until he did so). The "ultimate price" thing though was not said in reference to that, but to Misty's willingness to use the sword to protect Maya no matter what the cost, if I remember correctly. Besides channeling Dahlia was certainly not protecting Maya, but Pearl. On the other hand, all the praise for Misty at the end pissed me off. She wasn't a hero anymore than Godot was, but they are both forgiven so easily. All the "she was so brave and strong" was just infuriating. At the very least, she was an idiot and at the worst, she was reckless and a coward fully willing to risk everyones lives including that of her daughter and niece just to avoid having to face her won mistakes. I'll leave my thoughts at that for now though.

O_O

fuck

Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:19 am

Mia_Fey

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Oops... sorry *feels bad and crawls into a corner* I promise that I'll try to be better.

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Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:24 am

Wrestlemania

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.... that wording makes me feel guilty, pal. :sadshoe:

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Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:27 am

Mia_Fey

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No worries! :edgy:

I tried to fix the spacing some to make it easier to read.

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Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:28 am

Wrestlemania

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Godot saved Maya's life, and Misty saved Pearls'. Despite the stupidity of the plan, there is a "heat of the moment" aspect that the characters seem to see more than the "What the **** was wrong with them in the first place???" aspect.

Either way, I'm pretty sure Misty got the point, eh? :moe-laugh:

............ *shot*

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Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:22 am

Franzise Deauxnim

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Possibly stupid question incoming.

We know what Godot and Misty's motives were for going along with the idiot plan, but what did Iris get out of it?

Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:01 am

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Franzise Deauxnim wrote:

Possibly stupid question incoming.

We know what Godot and Misty's motives were for going along with the idiot plan, but what did Iris get out of it?

Not stupid at all! It's never suggested overtly, but I think Iris's reasons were twofold: to make up for helping her psychopath sister in previous times, and because she felt loyalty to the "current" Master, however unwise that elder may be acting these days. (Perhaps she simply couldn't judge such poor judgment when next to :chinami:

Misty must have looked utterly brilliant.)

Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:11 am

Wrestlemania

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I disagree. In the case, she says that she cared deeply for her sister, and wanted her to change... I think that they appealed to Iris' love for Phoenix, and told her to pose in the magazine advertisement, to get Phoenix and Maya to go there, and so that the events could take place...

... but... what if the magazine never reached the Feys in the first place???..... giant plothole?

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Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:27 am

Franzise Deauxnim

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Wrestlemania wrote:

I disagree. In the case, she says that she cared deeply for her sister, and wanted her to change... I think that they appealed to Iris' love for Phoenix, and told her to pose in the magazine advertisement, to get Phoenix and Maya to go there, and so that the events could take place...

That can't be quite right, Iris didn't know Phoenix would be there.

Wrestlemania wrote:

... but... what if the magazine never reached the Feys in the first place???..... giant plothole?

Morgan told Pearl where she had to go to perform the channelling, so the magazine was irrelevant in that sense. They were going to Hazakura anyway.

Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:31 am

Wrestlemania

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Not really... It depended on one sole decision, so it's not like she could've gone otherwise.

And since I'm too tired to lay traps, I'm just gonna say this: Phoenix was the one who had to go with them. Even if Maya and Pearl took another form of transportation, they couldn't stay.

And since I'm REALLY tired, I'll also add this:

Phoenix would've never gone if he didn't see Iris' pic there. It depended on Maya and Pearl getting the magazine, "Oh! Cult! Holiday issue"... or is it Winter Issue?....... Anyways...

See, if Godot and Misty just spent their resources stealing all the issues, it'd be much easier of a plan!

Posted by Request.
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Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:38 am

Franzise Deauxnim

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Why could Maya and Pearl not have stayed if Phoenix hadn't gone?

Iris was clearly stunned at seeing Phoenix at the Inner Temple. If she knew he was coming, why would she react that way?

Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:43 am

Mia_Fey

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Considering how guilty Iris felt about everything and how she wanted to repent for her sins, I would guess they appealed to the idea that this would help make up for her earlier actions. In the past, Iris loved her sister and therefore had truly believed that Dahlia could have changed, but because of this she sat idly by while her sister to continue her actions (including hurting the man she loved in the end, even though she tried to protect him. It was attempting to protect both Dahlia and Phoenix that lead to disaster), so this time she could make up for it by stopping her sister before anyone was harmed. I'll bet they simply sold it as "the right thing to do" and in her trusting naivity, Iris bought it. Iris had so little contact with the outside world, I doubt she would have questioned the Master of Kurain and a powerful prosecutor.

Iris clearly didn't know Phoenix would be there because of the shock we see (she couldn't speak for several minutes) and the fact that it was his presence and the "blackmail" note combined that scared Iris so much that she couldn't even come out. Godot and Misty may have known, but Iris clearly didn't. I doubt Godot realized that Phoenix and Iris were connected (he would have realized her connection to Dahlia, but he had no reason to suspect that Iris who rarely left the temple had ever met Phoenix).

Proud Supporter of Phoenix/Iris, Ron/Dessie, Klavier/Ema, and Apollo/Vera
Fanfics Updated-12/25

Last edited by Mia_Fey on Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:46 am, edited 2 times in total.

Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:45 am

Wrestlemania

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Spacing, pleeeeeease!!! :accordion-head:

And also, Franzise... It's one of the first lines in the case! Maya and Pearl need to be accompanied by someone 20 years old or older! That's why they brought him in the first place!

Posted by Request.
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Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:47 am

Mia_Fey

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Sorry fixed! I agree Godot knew Phoenix would go. That was part of the point. He wanted to beat Phoenix, but he had no reason to tell Iris whose own part in this was rather minor.

Proud Supporter of Phoenix/Iris, Ron/Dessie, Klavier/Ema, and Apollo/Vera
Fanfics Updated-12/25

Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:49 am

Wrestlemania

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Iris was simply to assist Godot, but to also find a way to get Phoenix there.

Posted by Request.
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Re: The ultimate price. (case 5 spoilers)

Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:51 am

Mia_Fey

True love is forever.

Gender: Female

Rank: Ace Attorney

Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:55 am

Posts: 2182

Godot didn't put that magazine in their hands. Morgan did. It was Pearl who made the arrangements.
quote from game
Pearl: Don't worry! I've already made special reservations, just for us!

Proud Supporter of Phoenix/Iris, Ron/Dessie, Klavier/Ema, and Apollo/Vera
Fanfics Updated-12/25

Last edited by Mia_Fey on Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:52 am, edited 1 time in total.