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Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!
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Author:  AthenaCat [ Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

Asa Turney wrote:
Spoiler: timeline
The last case of AAI1 took place on March 14.
Phoenix's disbarment happens on April 29.
Cutting it close there... :yogi:


Spoiler:
The case ended early the morning of the 15th, though (around 3 A.M.), meaning that AAI2 begins just over a week later. Hopefully Edgeworth got a day or two off in between. :edgeworth:

Author:  icer [ Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

Neni wrote:
I doubt that theory, based on the fact that AAI seems to be just as controversial as AJ was, at least from all I've gathered yet (and what I've gathered is, actually, quite much.)

Sorry, no. AAI did not divide the fandom. There's varied reception to its quality, but it's NOT controversial, either in the game or fandom. The opposite was clearly the strategy in GK1 and could well be in GK2. (Of course being totally uncontroversial means less creative risk and less chance of an outstanding product story/characterwise, but all Edgeworth's integral character development already occurred in GS1-3, so it doesn't matter that much.)

Author:  Neni [ Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

AthenaCat wrote:
Asa Turney wrote:
Spoiler: timeline
The last case of AAI1 took place on March 14.
Phoenix's disbarment happens on April 29.
Cutting it close there... :yogi:


[spoiler]The case ended early the morning of the 15th, though (around 3 A.M.), meaning that AAI2 begins just over a week later. Hopefully Edgeworth got a day or two off in between. :edgeworth: [/spoiler]


Why? Knowing Edgeworth, he probably isn't comortable taking any vacation whatsoever and considers not being allowed to work as the worst punishment of them all.

Author:  Asa Turney [ Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

Neni wrote:
Why? Knowing Edgeworth, he probably isn't comortable taking any vacation whatsoever and considers not being allowed to work as the worst punishment of them all.
You think so?? :adrian:

I'd really love to believe that -- that this case-after-case hecticness is the kind of thing he wants -- because, all Phoenix-related matters aside, the "poor Edgeworth needs a break" thing has been my main concern about the game's setting this whole time. The stress of AAI's three-days-straight late-night-every-night investigation would have been a nightmare for any average person, but of course Edgeworth is awesome enough to handle it... And a lot of times he does seem to live for his work, as you say...

...But, if I recall correctly, I think there was a very telling line in AAI relating to the comfy sofa (either in his office or in the courthouse; can't remember)... If he's with Gumshoe as a partner, he'll scold Gumshoe for wanting to take a nap on it while they've got work to do. But when Edgeworth examines it by himself, he muses that he might take a nap himself once the case is over. Or something like that. I think. I hope I'm not just pulling that out of my head.

I think Edgey really does want/need a rest sometimes. :edgeworth: And he certainly deserves one.

Especially since GK2 is apparently going to be not just physically but emotionally taxing for him...
...I sincerely hope he sets his pride aside and takes a vacation one of these days.
Or at least that the GK2 cases won't all take place on consecutive days.

Author:  Neni [ Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

True, but knowing Edgey's luck, his vacation probably starts on Aril 29th... :hoboleft:

Author:  Mr. Bear Jew [ Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

AthenaCat wrote:
Asa Turney wrote:
Spoiler: timeline
The last case of AAI1 took place on March 14.
Phoenix's disbarment happens on April 29.
Cutting it close there... :yogi:


Spoiler: Timeline
The case ended early the morning of the 15th, though (around 3 A.M.), meaning that AAI2 begins just over a week later. Hopefully Edgeworth got a day or two off in between. :edgeworth:


Spoiler: Timeline
If we want to get even more technical, Edgeworth didn't stop working until after Alba's trial on March 17th, which makes the events of GK2 happen almost exactly one week later.

Holy shit, that's some hardcore work schedule!

Author:  End Quote [ Fri Oct 01, 2010 5:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

Asa Turney wrote:
Neni wrote:
Why? Knowing Edgeworth, he probably isn't comortable taking any vacation whatsoever and considers not being allowed to work as the worst punishment of them all.
You think so?? :adrian:

I'd really love to believe that -- that this case-after-case hecticness is the kind of thing he wants -- because, all Phoenix-related matters aside, the "poor Edgeworth needs a break" thing has been my main concern about the game's setting this whole time. The stress of AAI's three-days-straight late-night-every-night investigation would have been a nightmare for any average person, but of course Edgeworth is awesome enough to handle it... And a lot of times he does seem to live for his work, as you say...

...But, if I recall correctly, I think there was a very telling line in AAI relating to the comfy sofa (either in his office or in the courthouse; can't remember)... If he's with Gumshoe as a partner, he'll scold Gumshoe for wanting to take a nap on it while they've got work to do. But when Edgeworth examines it by himself, he muses that he might take a nap himself once the case is over. Or something like that. I think. I hope I'm not just pulling that out of my head.

I think Edgey really does want/need a rest sometimes. :edgeworth: And he certainly deserves one.

Especially since GK2 is apparently going to be not just physically but emotionally taxing for him...
...I sincerely hope he sets his pride aside and takes a vacation one of these days.
Or at least that the GK2 cases won't all take place on consecutive days.

To me, it's not that Edgeworth works too much, but that there's just too much stuff happening to Edgeworth in two weeks...

With Phoenix, it was pretty realistic, with major stuff only happening every 2 months or so, but with Edgey it all happens way to close to each other...

Author:  miles__edgeworth [ Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

The time era is lame, Kay's return is also lame.
AAI1 end was all that dramatic about Kay who was leaving Edgeworth.
Aaaaah, take picture, aaaaah farewell Mr.Edgeworth and Gummy.
And just one week later, she reappears...

Author:  Pierre [ Fri Oct 01, 2010 3:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

miles__edgeworth wrote:
The time era is lame, Kay's return is also lame.
AAI1 end was all that dramatic about Kay who was leaving Edgeworth.
Aaaaah, take picture, aaaaah farewell Mr.Edgeworth and Gummy.
And just one week later, she reappears...


:maya: AAAH NICK I NEED TO GET ON THIS TRAIN SOMEWHEREZ
:phoenix: WHY?!
:maya: CAUSE YOUR JUST TOO BIG FOR ME!

And yet she returned in GS2 and it was still good.
You just don't like Kay I'll bet.

Author:  godot_125 [ Fri Oct 01, 2010 4:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

Pierre wrote:
miles__edgeworth wrote:
The time era is lame, Kay's return is also lame.
AAI1 end was all that dramatic about Kay who was leaving Edgeworth.
Aaaaah, take picture, aaaaah farewell Mr.Edgeworth and Gummy.
And just one week later, she reappears...


:maya: AAAH NICK I NEED TO GET ON THIS TRAIN SOMEWHEREZ
:phoenix: WHY?!
:maya: CAUSE YOUR JUST TOO BIG FOR ME!

And yet she returned in GS2 and it was still good.
You just don't like Kay I'll bet.


true, but

the time the past from the end of AA to case 2 of AA2 was bigger than a week

Maya left December 28th and Dr.Grey brought Phoenix to see Maya for the first time on June 19th

6 & a half months past before JFA started

Author:  End Quote [ Fri Oct 01, 2010 4:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

Edgeworth having Maya as an assistant for a case would be epic.

Author:  Wooster [ Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

End Quote wrote:
Edgeworth having Maya as an assistant for a case would be epic.


Mmm, I'd beg to differ. Kay already has dibs on the "perky female sidekick" role. Never mind that she's fighting with Gumshoe for partner. Plus Maya has the extra weight where you have to reintroduce her and her significance to all the new players.

Besides, hasn't Maya gotten into enough trouble already? She needs rescuing in every game she shows up in. And there's a reason for that. Maya has no skills. Her only special ability is to summon Mia via which makes Mia important (Although I have problems myself with Mia). But Maya herself is useless. To give her significance the writers artificially make her important to the plot via damsel in distress.

Kay and Ema have their Gimmicks, Gumshoe has a job, Trucy is perceptive in more ways then one. These characters can add something to a case that moves it forward. If you are adding Maya then you are also adding Mia and/or Phoenix. And I'm personally againt either of them showing up. Mia had all of GS3 to become important and she didn't. Phoenix did show up in GS4 and stole the spotlight from Apollo. Now. Edgeworth might be better equipped then Apollo with regards to dealing with Phoenix, but I'd rather they not without good reason.

Author:  End Quote [ Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

Wooster wrote:
End Quote wrote:
Edgeworth having Maya as an assistant for a case would be epic.


Mmm, I'd beg to differ. Kay already has dibs on the "perky female sidekick" role. Never mind that she's fighting with Gumshoe for partner. Plus Maya has the extra weight where you have to reintroduce her and her significance to all the new players.

Besides, hasn't Maya gotten into enough trouble already? She needs rescuing in every game she shows up in. And there's a reason for that. Maya has no skills. Her only special ability is to summon Mia via which makes Mia important (Although I have problems myself with Mia). But Maya herself is useless. To give her significance the writers artificially make her important to the plot via damsel in distress.

Kay and Ema have their Gimmicks, Gumshoe has a job, Trucy is perceptive in more ways then one. These characters can add something to a case that moves it forward. If you are adding Maya then you are also adding Mia and/or Phoenix. And I'm personally againt either of them showing up. Mia had all of GS3 to become important and she didn't. Phoenix did show up in GS4 and stole the spotlight from Apollo. Now. Edgeworth might be better equipped then Apollo with regards to dealing with Phoenix, but I'd rather they not without good reason.


Ha, nice arguments, I clearly hadn't though about it for too long...

Mmm, what about Ema than? She has science and wants to become a forencic investigator, so she has reason enough to join Edgey.

If they do it, I hope they don't they bring back the useless science gimmicks, it just doesn't fit in AA IMO...

Author:  Neni [ Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

Regarding "Maya is useless", I beg to differ.

Yes, her main use is being a standby-body for Mia, that's true. But, no, Maya does not lack any ability at all on her own. She's mentioned several times to be pretty clever despite her Cloud-Cuckoolander tendencies. She notices details that Phoenix misses. And she sometimes realizes mistakes in the witness testimonies before Phoenix does.


However, I wouldn't put her into Investigations as a Partner. Edgeworth wouldn't draw any advantage from working with her. His logical thinking is much sharper and quicker than Phoenix, making the support-role that Maya had unneeded. Ever noticed how Edgeworth only wins Kay off any "practical" use in regards of physical help (like moving certain heavy objects) or by asking her to activate Little Thief?

Let's talk in book terms:

Phoenix needed a Ron Weasley to support him. Someone who is a) a good friend and b) has more skills than it seems on first glance.

Edgeworth doesn't need a Ron. He needs a Watson.

Author:  Coffee Prosecutor [ Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

End Quote wrote:

Mmm, what about Ema than? She has science and wants to become a forencic investigator, so she has reason enough to join Edgey.

If they do it, I hope they don't they bring back the useless science gimmicks, it just doesn't fit in AA IMO...

They already had Ema, she came back due to her vacation. But I don't think they last long enough, and she wasn't that overl useless I mean she discovered the footprints for little thief. But when we talk about Edgey being more emotional then we clearly need people who wakes his old memories and emotions, like Emma and the Joe Darke murders... Lana may be a possibility as well...

Author:  Mr. Brown [ Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

I wonder if Payne and the judge will maintain their series perfect attendance records?

Author:  miles__edgeworth [ Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

I'm just disappointed in the selected time era...
Maya's come-back to Nick was about 6/7 months later and Kay's return is just ten days.
I prefer seen Ema as Edgeys partner but then, I'm stealing my OWN ideas...

I fear that GK2 is going to fail...and I like Edgeworth when he's Edgeworth and not his ''human'' side...

Yeah, I prefer had a GS5 with Apollo...

Author:  Mr. Bear Jew [ Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

miles__edgeworth wrote:
I fear that GK2 is going to fail...


It certainly will if you're pessimistic enough.

Author:  Jean Descole [ Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

miles__edgeworth wrote:
I'm just disappointed in the selected time era...
Maya's come-back to Nick was about 6/7 months later and Kay's return is just ten days.
I prefer seen Ema as Edgeys partner but then, I'm stealing my OWN ideas...

I fear that GK2 is going to fail...and I like Edgeworth when he's Edgeworth and not his ''human'' side...

Yeah, I prefer had a GS5 with Apollo...


Well, as I've said, all we know is that the very first case of GK2 takes place on March 25. We don't yet have confirmation that the rest of the game will take place around the same time. It might. It might not. We don't know yet.

I very much like Edgeworth with a human side, but I can understand the fear. Some emo stuff is good, but if it's all pointless or if it's obvious that a bunch of poor plot devices are involved, I'd probably be pissed as well. A little Edgeworth respect here!

Author:  Neni [ Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

What's important is that Edgeworth's character development doesn't suddenly regress for no apparent reason. That'd be horrible.

Author:  Jean Descole [ Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

Neni wrote:
What's important is that Edgeworth's character development doesn't suddenly regress for no apparent reason. That'd be horrible.


Yes, that too.

Author:  Pleading Eyes [ Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

How is Maya more useless than KAY?

Maya's greatest character contributions come not only from channeling Mia, or from her strange moon logic that seems to catch things even Phoenix misses, but from her own courage. Maya stands up in court and fights for Miles when Phoenix is going to be held in contempt. Maya throws herself in front of von Karma's taser and snatches the bullet. Maya, even kidnapped, encourages Phoenix to seek a guilty verdict and not worry about her.

Kay on the other hand has what? The Little Thief which does nothing which Edgeworth couldn't have done in his head. Edgeworth can perfectly deduce how things went down without physical representations of them. It's how everything's been done in the REST of the series. The Little Thief doesn't show anything Edgeworth doesn't already know (or assume). It's basically just a round about and time-consuming gimmick to give Kay any worth whatsoever.

Yes, Maya has often gotten into trouble in the series and needed rescuing. But the things that happen to Maya are NOT HER FAULT. It's what other people do to HER, and it's often times a result of the other people around her. She is framed for Mia's murder because Mia had to be silenced. She is framed for murder by her Aunt because Morgan wanted Pearl to be master. She is kidnapped because DeKiller wanted Phoenix to get a not guilty. None of these things are Maya's fault, and in fact are not even done BECAUSE of her, but because of the people she is important to.

Kay, on the other hand, runs into stupid situations and slows Edgeworth down constantly. She jumps into the trapdoor like an idiot. She runs after a killer, alone, into a building, and then is all surprised when she gets a gun pressed to her head. How is Kay any more useless than Maya? If anything, I'd say Kay is more of a hindrance, causing discord in the team by competing for a spot that SHOULD be Gumshoe's.

Now all that said, as much as I love Maya, I don't think Edgeworth should have a perky girl sidekick at all. Phoenix may be the kind to tolerate perky teenage girls following him around, especially Maya because she is his mentor's sister, but Edgeworth is NOT Phoenix. AAI puzzled me with why Edgeworth was tolerating Kay AT ALL (especially considering she kept claiming to be a thief, and Edgeworth hates criminals), when he could have easily had her escorted from his crime scenes.

Edgeworth works with Gumshoe in the AA games. Why can't we have a game with Edgeworth and Gumshoe? If they need a female sidekick, why doesn't Franziska fit the bill? She's much more likely to be in Edgeworth's very exclusive trust circle. Even Ema would be a better choice because, as Lana's sister, Edgeworth is more likely to tolerate her. And Ema's science is more USEFUL than the pointless Little Thief.

Author:  Wooster [ Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

We're looking at the same situation and coming to opposite conclusions for the same reasons. The difference is perspective. I'm looking at Maya in terms of what she offers to help solve a case. In this case, I am not looking at personality, but skills and what she has to offer. Anyone can be kidnapped, jump the bullet, give humorous rhetoric, or give cryptic hints that they know someone is lying. Gumshoe for instance has done most of those items I've attributed Maya for. Not everyone can recreate a crime scene, do research, preform forensics, etc etc etc.

In terms of helping to solve a case, by their own powers and skills, Maya falls desperately short. In fact, the only things I can give her credit for in a professional situation, are getting Phoenix the jobs in 1-3, and 2-3.

Now, for the vast majority of the heroic qualities you listed about Maya, I admit that she does have them, but for a lack of better terminology, she doesn't own those attributes. She's given them. Maya is a major cast member. But because she cannot give anything to the case, she needs have it given to her. Hence why she is a suspect for murder,

IN. EVERY. SINGLE. GAME.

It was even joked in at least one of the TGS Special Court events.

When Phoenix is in a tight spot, who makes a ruckus and gets dragged out of the court? Maya. When Von Karma is Tasering, who jumps the bullet? Maya.

Maya is dependent upon plot events that victimize her.

Ema offers science, Kay gives crime scene recreation, Trucy is versed in the art of deceit and has the perceive ability, Gumshoe is supposed to provide early crime reports and is legally authorized to tamper with the crime scene (Not that the later matters much in these games). Even Grossberg is capable of thinking on his own and doing research while Mia tackles the court.

Maya, of her own talents, offers nothing.


In fact, it is primarily because of Maya and Phoenix that I do not want them to return in a protagonist setting, and am much more content with AAI's and GS4's universes.

Author:  Asa Turney [ Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

Wow, what great points on the topic of the sidekick...


Only for consistency's sake am I glad that Kay is in again for GK2. Now that she's been introduced it really wouldn't make sense for her not to come back. Although it also doesn't quite make sense for her to be coming back so soon... :yuusaku:


But, in a mindset of "what could have been," I do LOVE that notion of Edgeworth and Gumshoe investigating by themselves (with Franziska thrown in to fill the series' traditional cute-girl fix). Edgeworth and Gumshoe are a wonderfully lovable team (as well as my first and second favorite characters in the series~ ^^ so maybe I'm biased...). I was extremely annoyed at Kay's constant "theft" of Gumshoe's role. Gumshoe could've mostly filled the role by himself. Except...
The only reason I think that wouldn't have worked is because AAI's plot needed a new girl. The whole Yatagarasu backstory wouldn't have worked out as well if imposed on any recurring character, or on any new character that didn't play a role as big as Kay's. Kay was needed, and she needed a big role. Her interesting role in the plot *cough* along with her awesome theme song and cute design (...hahaha I never knew I was so shallow) is one of the few things that allows me to say I like her as a character. But in the end, I do like her; there are almost no AA characters that I completely dislike.


Anyway, still in "what could have been" mode... if a teen sidekick was truly necessary, then, about the other candidates:

-I really like Maya, and I agree with the stance that she's awesome, helpful, and useful. I don't think it's really fair to say that what she offered in those situations were merely dependent on the plot: Even if the "usefulness" doesn't come out of a special "talent," I think it was her bold, courageous personality that allows her to offer what she does -- and isn't that the best kind of character, relying on personality rather than gimmicks?
...Actually, wait a minute, can't spirit channeling be called a "talent"? Sure, it's Mia that does the helping whenever she summons her -- but being a medium took a lot of tough training on Maya's part, and I think she deserves credit for that.
But, in any case, there's no strong relationship between her and Edgeworth that would make them good partners. She definitely doesn't belong in Edgeworth's game -- especially, as someone else pointed out, if the other PW-era characters to whom she's strongly tied aren't going to be in it.


-Now, Ema, on the other hand... Honestly, I've always thought that Ema would make an excellent partner for Edgeworth.
Especially since AAI was supposed to be her game, after all, she deserves a bigger part!
I might have even liked it better than an Edgey/Gummy duo by themselves.
As I said in another thread: in my opinion,
:edgeworth: + :gymshoe: + :ema: = investigation dream team~

Her relationship with (read: fangirism of) Edgeworth as seen in AA1-5 was really cute and a good jumping-off point for how the rest of their interactions would potentially play out if she was to be his permanent co-partner. I hadn't even considered her status as Lana's sister making her more favorable to Edgeworth, but that makes a lot of sense -- Lana could even be brought back as a plot point, and that would be cool; we haven't seen enough of her.
And, most importantly, her scientificness would do a lot for the gameplay. The fingerprinting and Luminol in 1-5 made that case's investigation parts the most fun (investigation parts) of the entire series. In a game specifically titled "INVESTIGATIONS," there really needs to be more of that sort of stuff! Also, it was totally unfair that Kay got to steal the spotlight with a tool as "scientific" as the Little Thief. The science girl is standing right there, and yet Kay gets to overshadow her with pseudo-science. I actually didn't mind the Little Thief as a tool overall; I thought it was an okay gimmick... but it was a gimmick that would have been more deserved by (and its technology perhaps made more believable by) Ema.

Author:  Pleading Eyes [ Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

Wooster, I don't understand how Maya's channeling doesn't count. How does Trucy's perceive count, since Apollo uses his own and never uses hers? Yes, it may be Mia that's helping out, but Maya is still the one channeling her. That is a useful talent. And why shouldn't the fact that she's courageous, bold, and stands up when she is needed count? Yes, anyone COULD do this, but not everyone DOES. That's her personality and it makes her an asset.

I certainly think channeling is more useful than the Little Thief. The Little Thief creates scenes that Edgeworth is already assuming. It doesn't show anything Edgeworth doesn't already know. We could very easily have an "in Edgeworth's head" logic mode and see him imagining the scene, just as they sort of did with AJ and showing the 3-D models of the scenes. Little Thief is an absolutely redundant and unnecessary tool, and it is the only thing Kay contributes.

Maya may get in trouble a lot, but as I said, it's not her fault. It's what other people do TO Maya. Maya just has terrible luck, the poor girl. Kay on, the other hand, runs INTO trouble and causes it for herself (and by extension Edgeworth) such as when she jumps into the trapdoor, or when she runs after an armed killer alone and gets a gun pressed to her head. And all of Maya's damsel in distress moments have spanned over three games. Kay's already had a few and she's only been in one game, only three cases.

But again, as much as I love Maya and think she is a far superior assistant to Kay, I don't think she'd be the best assistant for Edgeworth. I think Ema would make for a better assistant, as for one Edgeworth has more reason to tolerate her (since she has a connection to his former boss and Ema isn't a "thief" either), and for two she contributes a genuinely useful talent in science.

Better than all of them, I'd rather see an Edgeworth/Gumshoe buddy-cop sort of game, like AAI was originally marketed.

Author:  Neni [ Sat Oct 02, 2010 11:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

I think we need a seperate Sidekick-discussion thread...


On that note, I also think that Maya's Spiritualist abilities should count as a talent as well. And, had she ever been given the chance, I'm sure she could have done more than it than "just" channeling Mia.

And I don't get how Trucy's preceiving counts when it's never used in-game and is weaker than Apollo's.

Author:  End Quote [ Sat Oct 02, 2010 11:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

Spoiler: Something everyone knows already from the trailers , but rules are rules...
So if de Killer returns, why not having Cadaverini return?

He's too powerful for the police, but maybe not for Edgeworths LOGIC !


And I think Spirit Channeling belongs in the PW trilogy, I don't think Edgeworth would be happy with a lot of spiritual stuff happening around him... (he probably still thinks it's bogus even after 3-5)

Spirit channeling will do damage to his LOGIC

(from now on, all we write LOGIC full caps, to show what a mighty power it is)

Author:  grim_tales [ Sat Oct 02, 2010 11:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

That shows Maya must value Nick a lot (or rather they value each other) if she takes a taser for him. She gets kidnapped a lot but its not her fault.

Author:  shadowofedgeworth [ Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

End Quote wrote:
Spoiler: Something everyone knows already from the trailers , but rules are rules...
So if de Killer returns, why not having Cadaverini return?


Spoiler:
Because the Cadaverini family was a one-note wonder, and a very flat one at that. Viola herself was certainly "interesting," but I wish they'd managed to find a way to tie her to Furio Tigre without manufacturing a mafia family out of whole cloth (one that was never mentioned before, nor has been mentioned since). GS4 did that concept right.

Author:  GantStare [ Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

Viola had a short reference in GK1, and they must not have felt that she was that big of a character to bring back.

Author:  Pierre [ Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

Look at it this way.

Trucy's power requires some actual skill on her behalf and intuition. When Apollo uses it he still has to find it.
Trucy often hints and nudges that she's sensed something plus offscreen her powers have been used numerous times to aid Phoenix. Abducting herself in order to buy more time for an investigation? A talent only she could do due to the nature of the abduction.

While I'm not saying Spirit channelling is an easy thing (credit to her for undergoing training) it's essentially Mia who is doing all the useful stuff for Phoenix.
It's like crediting someone for having a phone to call for help.

Besides it's nothing that is unique to Maya since Phoenix can easily (and has) called on Pearl to do the job. It's maybe even debatable as to whether she's BETTER than Maya at it considering the level of skill she shows for her age.

Also would hate the game if Ema was in it as a sidekick, it's only a matter of time before she becomes devil GS4 Ema. Besides she doesn't really contribute ANYTHING other than supplies that Edgeworth could no doubt afford or the forensics team could get since she always gets someone else to do it. Since she failed in GS4 to get on the forensics team it's dubious whether she can do it at ALL. All she's effectively contributed is instruction (which is overwhelmingly simple in practice) and an enthusiasm for science.

Author:  Pleading Eyes [ Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

Pierre wrote:

While I'm not saying Spirit channelling is an easy thing (credit to her for undergoing training) it's essentially Mia who is doing all the useful stuff for Phoenix.
It's like crediting someone for having a phone to call for help.


Except Mia is DEAD. So no, it's not like crediting someone for having a phone to call for help. You can't call dead people. It is a VERY special skill Maya has, being able to channel the dead for help.

And if you're counting Trucy pretending to "abduct herself", then Maya jumping in front of the taser, grabbing the bullet from von Karma, and standing up in court despite the threats of contempt also count. By these standards, Maya is already three times more useful than Trucy by game 1. (And not to say I don't like Trucy. I love Trucy.)


Pierre wrote:
Besides it's nothing that is unique to Maya since Phoenix can easily (and has) called on Pearl to do the job. It's maybe even debatable as to whether she's BETTER than Maya at it considering the level of skill she shows for her age.


Phoenix didn't know Maya in game 1. Phoenix wouldn't have met Pearl at all if not for Maya. And even if Pearl is better at channeling, she only ever does it when Maya is unavailable or to help Maya. Pearl is more like Maya's tag along. Pearl wouldn't be there channeling for Nick if not for Maya.

Pierre wrote:
Also would hate the game if Ema was in it as a sidekick, it's only a matter of time before she becomes devil GS4 Ema.


So you like Zak, a character who tried to ruin the man who raised his daughter and who knocked a woman unconcious with a juice bottle (and could have possibly killed her). You think he's a good person.

But because Ema actually has a character, even if it's a grumpy one at times, she's a devil woman? Ema wasn't even all that mean. She was certainly nicer to Apollo than Zak was to Phoenix. She was nicer than Edgeworth was to Phoenix at first. Ema wasn't all that bad, and was actually pretty helpful. She was just grumpy. Big deal, who isn't? Does that make her any less of an interesting character with a complicated backstory and fun minigames?

Pierre wrote:
Besides she doesn't really contribute ANYTHING other than supplies that Edgeworth could no doubt afford or the forensics team could get since she always gets someone else to do it. Since she failed in GS4 to get on the forensics team it's dubious whether she can do it at ALL. All she's effectively contributed is instruction (which is overwhelmingly simple in practice) and an enthusiasm for science.


Again, even if her only purpose is to carry these supplies for Edgeworth and instruct him how to use them, that makes her a LOT more useful than Kay, whose only claim to fame is the Little Thief, which does nothing that can't just be shown with a hypothetical 3D model like in AJ.

Author:  dirtypantsdan [ Sat Oct 02, 2010 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

Funny, I see things in a completely different way. I like both Maya and Kay. But let's be fair here and compare both, I know this is probably the wrong thread to be posting this in but the subject has come up nonetheless and I've been wanting to talk about it for awhile.

Now let's be honest, both Maya and Kay are really similar personality wise. They live up to the words, cheeky, spunky, energetic and let's not forget that BOTH of them have an impulsive curiosity, examples consisting of jumping in a trap door, messing automatic cameras you get the idea. I don't see how this is a bad trait since most of the time it leads to important evidence or it collects a piece of logic. With that said can we conclude that both Kay and Maya are both NOT identical but have similar personalities?

Despite their similarities their talents and the dangers they face in their respected games are miles apart. Maya was the damsel in distress right from the get go of AA and as Pleading Eyes pointed out, her troubles inevitably came to her through out the AA series. The only detail we got was that she was Mia's sister and you had to defend her in the second case, we didn't expect what sort of relationship between Phoenix and Maya was going to be yet, of course assuming, this was the first AA you played. Kay's situation was completely different, unlike the first game we already had an established main character we knew almost everything about. In AAI you get an insight of Kay's past almost immediately, her purpose was tracking down her fathers killer. That alone explains her crude actions on tracking down this "fake" posing as what she thought was her fathers only title. Now we get to main point, Kay is criticized for charging at Calisto, and being too rash on the situation but what if the situation was reversed? Albeit the assassin of Mia (Redd White) ridiculing Maya and her even after their death. It's not too hard to picture Maya doing the same exact thing, but before you say this situation hasn't been presented to Maya at all and despite that both Maya and Kay having similar personalities, is it only a "Maya and Kay thing" to do? I don't think so, to me it seems more like a HUMAN thing to do, especially if this scenario is applied to a teenager.

I don't see how channeling can be incorporated in AAI, as much as I like Maya I don't see that happening and I hope it respectively stays exclusive in the PW arc. I believe little thief was utilized more to prove Edgeworth's thoughts as possible through simulation or at least that's what I thought. We could have those 3D simulations like in Apollo but those were post investigated court discoveries with floor plans and submitted evidence and these are just discovered raw murder scenes and no one has been arrested yet, I think Little thief would come in handy given those circumstances, much like how it was used for recreating the Haunted house with some blue prints, I might go as far as to claim that she is the only person who knows how to use it effectively. Ema would be a great alternative, but due to the current arc and her studying abroad it would feel a bit forced to have her in AAI, with the same forensic tech we've seen in AA case 5 and Apollo.

Another thing I was also a bit iffy about, this whole Kay taking Gumshoe's screen time thing. I really thought it was pretty darn equal if not I'm sure Gumshoe had more of it.

Spoiler:
1st Case: All Gumshoe as an assistant
2nd Case: Teneiro and mostly Gumshoe as asssitants + Franziska as the opposing party.
3rd Case: All Kay as assistant, still with Gumshoe dialogue on the side.
4th Case: Half Gumshoe and Franziska as assistants, multiple rebuttals with Gumshoe. Brief Young Kay dialouge
5th Case: Kay,Gumshoe and Franzika as assistants.


I don't see it at all.It looks like we get plenty of Gumshoe and a variety of Franziska.

I hope I don't come off as one sided here, I liked Maya and I liked Kay and her role in AAI and it sucks that she gets the most hate out of everyone because of it. I'm not trying to claim any form of superiority all, but I am more than content with her in AAI she fits very well in and doesn't seem forced in there as just a gimmick. Of course people will not like her and I'm accepting of it, but I felt like expressing my legit reasons of liking her because it looks like no one has here, it's been nothing but hatred so far. Again sorry for the wall of text but I've been wanting to get this off my chest.

Author:  miles__edgeworth [ Sat Oct 02, 2010 2:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

Mr. Bear Jew wrote:
miles__edgeworth wrote:
I fear that GK2 is going to fail...


It certainly will if you're pessimistic enough.


Well, excuse me....

Author:  End Quote [ Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

shadowofedgeworth wrote:
End Quote wrote:
Spoiler: Something everyone knows already from the trailers , but rules are rules...
So if de Killer returns, why not having Cadaverini return?


Spoiler:
Because the Cadaverini family was a one-note wonder, and a very flat one at that. Viola herself was certainly "interesting," but I wish they'd managed to find a way to tie her to Furio Tigre without manufacturing a mafia family out of whole cloth (one that was never mentioned before, nor has been mentioned since). GS4 did that concept right.

Well, that's why they should bring 'em back in the first place, to flesh out the story behind the family a bit, and maybe let it tie into the GS4 family and whatever Deva had to do with 'em.

GK showed Tender Lender was still in business (although I can't quite remember the details about that letter)

Author:  Pleading Eyes [ Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

miles__edgeworth wrote:
Mr. Bear Jew wrote:
miles__edgeworth wrote:
I fear that GK2 is going to fail...


It certainly will if you're pessimistic enough.


Well, excuse me....


Princess! (Sorry, couldn't resist)

Actually, I get the feeling a lot of people didn't like AAI. It doesn't seem that way on CR because people who didn't like AAI have probably stopped posting or are posting a lot less due to AAI reducing their interest in the series. But when I look at other gamesites, I find a lot of negative reception towards it. So maybe AAI was more controversial and divisive than we think.

Just check out the comments to this article. Almost all of them are negative:
http://ds.nintendolife.com/news/2010/09 ... by_famitsu

Author:  End Quote [ Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

Also on the "Needs more story" list: Grossberg...

Though probably not, the only thing that can connect him to Edgeworth is DL6 and that has been fully solved...

Author:  Pierre [ Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

God pleading eyes maybe I should just stop posting around you. You're much worse and more condescending than Icer ever was to me.

Quote:
Except Mia is DEAD. So no, it's not like crediting someone for having a phone to call for help. You can't call dead people. It is a VERY special skill Maya has, being able to channel the dead for help.

And if you're counting Trucy pretending to "abduct herself", then Maya jumping in front of the taser, grabbing the bullet from von Karma, and standing up in court despite the threats of contempt also count. By these standards, Maya is already three times more useful than Trucy by game 1. (And not to say I don't like Trucy. I love Trucy.)


Geez ok it's like having a special phone that contacts the dead (admittedly not an unheard of medium in some places) but all the same it's none of her intuition that's useful it's just the people she summons.

And Maya jumping in front of the taser and grabbing the bullet counts as one thing being the same action. For all we know she was trying to grab the bullet and just had the unfortunate timing to get tasered.

Plus if we use the troubles she gets into to detract from her usefulness (getting kidnapped and put on trial so many times) it makes her less useful and more of a problem. Compare Pearl who generally doesn't get into trouble and still has all the channelling powers.

But I'm sorry this turned into a bit of an anti-maya statement, I've not got much against Maya honestly.

But we shouldn't count up EVERY moment of usefulness to measure them that's just silly.

Trucy's powers are unique to her and she's quick witted and looks after herself

Maya can easily be replaced with Pearl and gets into trouble more often than not.

Quote:
Phoenix didn't know Maya in game 1. Phoenix wouldn't have met Pearl at all if not for Maya. And even if Pearl is better at channeling, she only ever does it when Maya is unavailable or to help Maya. Pearl is more like Maya's tag along. Pearl wouldn't be there channeling for Nick if not for Maya.


Again....Maya has the phone to call the person who is really useful.

Quote:
But because Ema actually has a character, even if it's a grumpy one at times, she's a devil woman? Ema wasn't even all that mean. She was certainly nicer to Apollo than Zak was to Phoenix. She was nicer than Edgeworth was to Phoenix at first. Ema wasn't all that bad, and was actually pretty helpful. She was just grumpy. Big deal, who isn't? Does that make her any less of an interesting character with a complicated backstory and fun minigames?


Don't....drag Zak into this.

And I think the general consensus is Ema acts horrible in comparison to her younger self in GS4. The minigames....weren't really fun either and many characters in GS4 aren't especially grumpy, not 100% of the time like she was.

Quote:
Again, even if her only purpose is to carry these supplies for Edgeworth and instruct him how to use them, that makes her a LOT more useful than Kay, whose only claim to fame is the Little Thief, which does nothing that can't just be shown with a hypothetical 3D model like in AJ.


Again....

Remove Ema
Replace with generic forensics teams (As they actually DID in AAI sometimes)
Have them do it without any especially interesting minigames
Give you the results.

Simple so simple.

And the hypothetical models aren't always available, any time I recall them they are already in court when all the details are present. Like a diorama.

Little thief allows for real time reconstruction of the crime scene ON the crime scene and aids in getting the case right first time. Since every time the 3D hypotheticals are used IN court is a result of the details being wrong in some way.

Author:  Pleading Eyes [ Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

Pierre wrote:
God pleading eyes maybe I should just stop posting around you. You're much worse and more condescending than Icer ever was to me.


I apologize if I came off that way. It's difficult to convey tone through text sometimes. But what I mean to day is, discrediting channeling as a "phone" is really unfair. The ability to call a dead person is HUGE. This isnt something small, and it's something only select people can do.

You say "oh well Pearl can do it too." But Apollo can perceive without Trucy's help, and he's even better at it than her. So why should Trucy's perceive count more than channeling?

And Maya has given helpful hints in court and during investigations many times. She doesn't always call Mia to be helpful. Maya finds several things on her own.

Pierre wrote:
Plus if we use the troubles she gets into to detract from her usefulness (getting kidnapped and put on trial so many times) it makes her less useful and more of a problem. Compare Pearl who generally doesn't get into trouble and still has all the channelling powers.


But that's another point I made. The trouble Maya gets into isnt her fault. It's things people do TO Maya. Maya doesnt run into dangerous situations. Dangerous situations come to HER. And it's usually not even because of her, but because she is dear to people and can be used as a way to strike at those people (such as Mia or as a threat to Nick).

This could happen to ANYONE. It's not like it's exclusive to Maya. The game just uses Maya because how many other people are that close to Mia or Phoenix?

Pierre wrote:
But I'm sorry this turned into a bit of an anti-maya statement, I've not got much against Maya honestly.


Me neither. I Love her! =D

Though I love most AA characters (sadly not true for AAI characters =( )

Pierre wrote:
But we shouldn't count up EVERY moment of usefulness to measure them that's just silly.

Trucy's powers are unique to her and she's quick witted and looks after herself


Trucy's powers aren't unique. Apollo has them. Magnifi had them. Thalassa probably has them since it's a Gramarye trait. Phoenix is even able to catch habits to an extent, without even having the ability.

Channeling is much more unique an ability, and Maya was plenty quick witted herself at times. For all the trouble she got into, she never got killed. And she's helped Nick out of a jam plenty of times.

Pierre wrote:
Maya can easily be replaced with Pearl and gets into trouble more often than not.


Maya can't be replaced by Pearl. Pearl HAD to rely on Mia to help Nick. She couldn't help Phoenix on her own because she is a child. Maya did plenty on her own to aid Phoenix. Mia was not her only asset.

Pierre wrote:
Again....Maya has the phone to call the person who is really useful.


But that's an oversimplification. Channeling the dead is a special talent. And Maya did plenty to help even without always resorting to calling Mia.

Trucy's ability is only looking at habits. You don't need special abilities to do this. It's a lot less powerful than channeling. Her abilities make her BETTER at it, but it isnt as unique as channeling. There are real life experts in this field of reading habits in our justice system.

Pierre wrote:
And I think the general consensus is Ema acts horrible in comparison to her younger self in GS4. The minigames....weren't really fun either and many characters in GS4 aren't especially grumpy, not 100% of the time like she was.


A lot of people LOVE older Ema, so I don't know where you're getting that she was horrible. She was a bit grumpy, but the moment you tell her you're Phoenix's employee, she brightens up a lot. She offers help even when she shouldn't and is generally pretty nice to Apollo. She has her grouchy moments, but the majority of them are aimed at Klavier, who purposely goads her. She's pretty nice to Apollo and Trucy =/.

I think we should both replay AJ and look again. Ema wasn't that mean at all. Several people prefer her in AJ because she had a unique personality and wasn't just a Maya clone like she was in RftA.

I personally love what they did with Ema. It's realistic. Everyone is more optimistic and sweet when they're young and have so much to dream for. When you're older and life hasn't worked out the way you always hoped and worked for, yeah, you can be a little bit jaded.

Pierre wrote:
Again....

Remove Ema
Replace with generic forensics teams (As they actually DID in AAI sometimes)
Have them do it without any especially interesting minigames
Give you the results.

Simple so simple.


But Pierre, a lot of people enjoy the minigames. Why not have them if a lot of people like them?

Isn't it fun to spray for yourself and find blood in an unexpected locations? It can be pretty exciting. And Ema could make sure Edgeworth always has access to these things, even if there's no forensics team around at the time, or for some reason they cant ask the team to do it (such as the team is working for someone else, like Lang).

Pierre wrote:
And the hypothetical models aren't always available, any time I recall them they are already in court when all the details are present. Like a diorama.

Little thief allows for real time reconstruction of the crime scene ON the crime scene and aids in getting the case right first time. Since every time the 3D hypotheticals are used IN court is a result of the details being wrong in some way.


But the Little Thief is a hypothetical too! The Little Thief doesnt show the actual scene. It shows what Edgeworth ASSUMES the scene is. This is why he has to correct it. In this sense, it's no more useful than the hypotheticals in court.
It's just as inaccurate.

Author:  GantStare [ Sat Oct 02, 2010 11:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gyakuten Kenji 2!!!!

I remember when this thread had 5 pages, and people weren't typing page long arguments about how Maya is or isn't helpful. If she wasn't, she wouldn't be in the games. It's that damn simple.

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