Okay. WHY are there 3 hospitals in such a tiny area right near to Phoenix's office? There's the Hotti, Hickfield AND Meraktis clinc. If this were a continuation of GS2 reality, there would be NO NEED to make a 3rd hospital or invent 'changing its name' or even change Hotti's name at all. It does not contribute to the plot in any way, does it? It's entirely unnecessary, except as a disassociation. But it fits with the policy. Only 1-5 characters are returned. Hotti was not in 1-5. Therefore, Hotti is not permitted to return and does not return. He's only allowed to return as Hickfield.

Why bother changing his name? There would be no need to change Hotti's name if it was a continuation of GS2. It's not like they change anyone else's name, is it.

As for Phoenix 'knowing' his habits, think about it.
Admitted to hospital
'Dr' Hickfield: Time for an examination mmm yes?
*NSFW*
Phoenix: 0_0;

No you haven't. If it was canon Hotti would have appeared. The fact he 'needed' a name change to be allowed to appear, means this can NOT be used as 'proof'. Now he's just in Easter Egg status. So perverted he ends up the same in both scenarios.







Takumi and Matsukawa should be able to officially claim this is an alternate scenario, as they so obvious want to and are writing a NEW STORY which is a different scenario to GS2 and 3. They should be allowed to officially label it as such. Then they can develop Phoenix and his ties to the new cast in whatever way they choose to maximum creative potential and stop ruining the old story.

Failing that, the ret-coned GS2 and 3 character development should be reinstated and I really don't care anymore if it derails 'Apollo's' arc to do it. Apollo is not a worthy enough cause to justify ruination of Phoenix Arc story. And none of his fanboys seem to be able to agree to reasonable compromise. The 3rd option is to have Phoenix leave, offsceen and no longer being further compensated by Apollo arc. Just have Trucy say 'Daddy left to live with a friend' or 'Daddy left to be a lawyer again offscreen'.



I think we have to stop calling it an alternate 'universe' as it seems some people here don't comprehend metaphors and take it literally. GS4 continues as an alternate scenario along a parallel but alternate conceptual timeline off 1-5.

There are incomprehensible levels of contradiction to compensate for if it's a continuation of GS3 scenario. There are almost zero contradictions to it being an alternate scenario branching off 1-5 which can all be easily accounted for, as their only context is NOT in the GS4 game. And that's what the writers were doing. Writing a continuation of their NEW STORY, 1-5, not the old story, 1-3 which Takumi SAID was finished and would 'not have new chapters added to it.'

RE: MAYA

MAYA EXISTED IN 1-5 timepoint. In an alternate scenario she and Phoenix would be friends too, obviously. Game 1 still occurred int his scenario. It's only game 2 and 3's exact plot which didn't happen. And Maya is exactly consistent with the 1-5 timepoint friendship. At the end of 1-5 she's gone back to Kurain to train. And as you can see, she is not here. She's absent, so she 'keeps sending' DVDs. If she 'keeps sending' she hasn't seen him for a while. It's characterisation entirely consistent with Maya's game 1 relationship to Phoenix. (Just like at the end of 1-5 Edgeworth disappears overseas, and that is his status in this game too. Absent.)

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Last edited by icer on Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Please show me when they stated that Phoenix was friendless and nobody tried to help him.

Actually, I strongly think that they did help him. I mean, think about it, how can a disbarred lawyer, who already has a bad reputation at the judges, manage to introduce the Jury system?
This is completely impossible, without help from someone who is at high position... and hmm, who was studying foreign law systems to help improve the US's / Japan's?

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Phoenix deserves just as much as Apollo does. If there is anything to "fix" they should fix it in GS5 while keeping Apollo as the main character.

Or do you want to ruin the series to have things the way you want it?

And WHAT is WRONG with changing the name of a hopsital? Nothing. Things change over time. Obviously, the world of GS should change with it.

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NO even vague, indirect reference was ever made that any old friends ever tried to help Phoenix. One line, one vague indirect reference was all it would have taken. So, so easy. The fact none exists, shows that the writers did not want to imply it. They would prefer to totally and utter contradict all game 2 and 3's character development rather than include one vague, indirect reference to them. The obvious response to this is: WHY?


Phoenix arc is an existing,. completed, awesome masterpiece whose quality and success is the only reason any Apollo story was even allowed to be commissioned in the first place. GS was built off the awesomeness of PHOENIX'S character. Some 3rd-rate generic 'Apollo' is not worth utter deconstruction and official ret-con of the pre-existing Phoenix Arc story which is the reason for the success of the franchise in the first place. They have already ruined the Phoenix Arc story with their official 'ret-con' of game 2 and 3's story. The core product of the franchise takes priority over any D-grade 'Apollo' if Apollo's development means further destruction of Phoenix arc. The new story should be separate as it was intended to be, not destructive by fakely being labelled a 'continuation' when it was so obviously a conceptual alternate scenario in the mind of Takumi and Matsukawa.

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But guess what? They can't have that now. It now HAS to be a continuation because Phoenix is in it. They can't end it now, because it'll alienate a lot of fans, and I believe you said something a while ago about how that was bad.

Just because you want something done your really bad, doesn't mean everyone wants that way.

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It's a continuation of 1-5.

'1-5 Character was returned to new story'. (Same goes for Ema, Meekins and whoever else.)

Quick question:
Is anyone else confused over the fact that one of the most common complaints about Apollo Justice is only in the complainer's minds? I mean, sure, there's no reference to Phoenix's friends still being in his life, but there's no proof they're not. Heck, it's actually more likely that Maya, Pearl, Edgeworth, Larry, etc. still play a part in Phoenix's life, simply because of how OOC it would be otherwise.

AJAA already ruined it- getting rid of him would do nothing but good in the long run. Getting rid of him would allow Phoenix and the GS series to rise from the ashes and return to glory.

Our point is that certain characters would be practically impossible for Apollo NOT to meet if Phoenix is his friend/mentor.

It would indeed be impossible for Apollo to meet them. GS4 just proved that.

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Edgeworth was absent for most of GS2. So if what you're saying is true (which I doubt) that would mean that Edgeworth is acting like he was in GS2. Originally, we didn't even learn he was gone until 2-2, before 1-5 was put in, and that was only a small look into it.

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What, did I miss something?
What prevents Apollo to ever meet Maya, are they under a supernatural curse or something?
Don't be ridiculous.

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3-5 timepoint Maya and Edgeworth would have helped him. 3-5 Maya was not only continuing as assistant (see flashback trial) but officially considered him family and declared she would look after him in the credits. Edgeworth had significant power at prosecutor's office (in 3-5 he gets a special trial with judge and prosecutor of his choosing to help Phoenix) and would have again 'pulled strings' to at least call an enquiry into the forged evidence, the truth then coming to light. It would not have taken 7 years to clear his name.

Phoenix_Apollo, the 1-5 writers knew of Edgeworth's 2-2 status. Regardless, post 1-5 his relationship and power level was not like that of his 3-5 timepoint. His great revival 2-4 had not occurred nor his reciprocation of Phoenix's commitment. 1-5 timepoint Edgeworth indeed could have abandoned Phoenix. 3-5 timepoint Edgeworth would never have.

Oh shut the hell up.

I guess those allusions were waaaaaay over your head. I'm sorry you didn't guess their meaning, because if you had, I just think you might have appreciated them.

But apparently you didn't.

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Hey, not a bad idea!

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Christ, icer. You keep shooting down our evidence with all of this drivel that you make from jumping to WAY to many conclusions (a + b must totally equal d!) that are often counterable and are the same status of what we present. Yet, when we shoot them down, you just keep spewing the same things.

Now look. I'm tired of this. If you can't totally prove 100% that you're right, WITHOUT JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS OR MAKING ASSUMPTIONS THAT AREN'T "obvious" please do.

For example, I think GS2 is related to GS4 because, one, the number in the title, two, the returning character and Magatama, the many other references in it, and logic.

That is a logical assumption from the facts. No matter which way you dice it, these facts cannot be denied. Now, let's see YOUR undeniable proof.

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The thing is, these are debatable as facts, soemthing both sides cannot agree on in ANY debate these days(what is a fact). It's not Hotti, it's Hickfield. How is "oh, the hospital just changed it's name", or "he just changed hospitals" any more of a jump? There's no reason for either.

The question i`ll ask you is, why bother changing names at all? Why not keep it as Hotti and Hotti clinic, thereby making a clear and direct refrence?

All other "allusions" are DELIBERATELY vague without naming any kind of specific event. Heck, especially with the Magician grand Prix, I interpreted that as Pheonix wanting Zak to "get to the point" as people he talks to often go off track and he tires of them because of the serious nature of the situation. the magatama is the only true connection, and even then, as icer has stated, they go DELIBERATELY out of their way to be vague about where he got it.

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It stays deliberately vague so the writers don't have to waste time explaining everything from the previous games. The way it is right now, it leaves new AJ players, who are interested, to be curious about the previous games without giving away too much.

Want to know why I think that's right? They haven't made a official statement that AJ is an alternate sceneario. Until that happens, I won't think it is.

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I'd like to give my opinion on this before I give my theory on this whole "missing link" of Apollo from Phoenix Arc.

Techincally, Hotti Clinic is a spoiler for 2-2. That's what the case revolved around. Also, let's not forget that Hotti Clinic was also the place where Franziska was healing when she got shot, therefore, Edgeworth taking over as prosecutor, so Capcom would have a legit reason to change the name. So, to those who have played the series prior to AJ, we would understand why Hotti is there in the first place.

Okay. Now, let's get on with the juicy, meaty, beefy explanation of how there's this missing link between PW3 and AJ.

Let's assume both situations here. I'll call them for clarity sake, Situation 1 and Situation 2.

Situation 1 is that PW2 and PW3 didn't exist at all, therefore, no character development betwen noob Phoenix and lawyer Phoenix. Now, assuming that the Apollo arc takes place where PW1-5 has taken place, PW2 and PW3 become completely moot and therefore, the awesomeness that is of Maya's kidnapping and other awesome spoiler-y things in PW3 never happened at all. Now, also, this complicates the arc in a VERY substancial way. Now, assuming that 2 and 3 DID exist, where does 1-5 exactly belong? Well, we all know that somehow 1-4 and 2-2 fit somehow because Maya leaves and she's gone in 1-5 then returns in 2-2. 2-1 is a filler case with Maya coming in after the trial is done, so now the order we have is 1-4, 1-5, 2-2, 2-1. So, if the AJ arc follows the 1-5 trail, that means.. 2-2 and 2-1 didn't happen as well, but we know from some of the easter eggs that they did.

My conclusion on this situation: writer's error.

Situation 2 is what most of us think. PW2 and 3 exist and they follow the order of 1-1 all the way to 3-5, with a jumbled order that goes a little something like this...
3-4, 3-1, 1-1 through 1-4, 1-5, 2-2, 2-1, 2-3, 2-4, 3-2, 3-3, 3-5. Now. Let's assume that the mentionings of AJ (reminder: view points are taking from Apollo's point of view now, not Phoenix's) are cannon. Now. I agree that Polly wouldn't care about Maya and Edgey because he has no relation to them, and obviously, Phoenix doesn't care too much about them either, which should make us ponder, not throw a hiss fit that they're not there.

Obviously, there's some bitterness that they couldn't help him with his disbarment because they were doing other duties. Maya, as Master of Kurain AND Assistant to Wright and Co., and Edgeworth, going back to where he was because his duties to help Phoenix through 3-5 are now done. He has paid his debt to Phoenix and now he has his own spinoff after T&T. How much longer will be very interesting to see...

There's many reasons why as to Maya not being there. Because she's Master and Assistant to Wright and Co., she has her hands full, so helping out in a case when Morgan is locked up (and or dead at this point) and with little Pearl the next in the branch family, she's helping out Maya, so neither of them can exactly help Phoenix now. With them at the ending of PW3 saying that he's a part of the family now, well, family can be far apart, but near to the heart. Over the 7 years, Phoenix has become quite bitter because of his disbarment. I mean, who wouldn't be? Afterall, the one person who stood up for you turns out to be the one person that would want you to go bye bye and shatter your squeaky clean record.

So anything to do with law, Phoenix absolutely dispise. That is his purpose now in AJ: to clean up the flawed court system so things like his disbarment will not happen again. In a way, he's a Mia, as I've seen a couple of people say. He's a 'dead' Phoenix, but, as his name implies (and we know how Capcom is with its names and subtle meanings), he will rise from the ashes anew and reborn.

Also, I like to also point out that as MUCH as AJ is trying to be seperated from the PW arc as Takumi-san wants it to be, it's not. I mean, Phoenix and Ema are two OBVIOUS points to my claim. Ema and Phoenix have a history. This history is subtly explained, except for the fact that Ema knows him from a case. The only people who would have understood this ARE the people who have played the Phoenix arc. Many of the jokes ARE from the Phoenix arc.

Now, I'm not saying that AJ should be TOTALLY and UTTERLY AU'd or whatever, I say it should just fit into the timeline a LOT better than it should have, rather than just tossing it.

... You know... I had the oddest thought.

I kinda hear myself talking in my head as I write this.. but.. WHAT IF. 1-5 was actually after 3-5?.. But then.. T&T spoilers up the wazoo... Nevermind.

Anyway, that's my opinion. =]

An impossibility, if only because Tres Bein hadn't opened yet. Armstrong was on the flyer, if you remember.

But I sort of wish it was...

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Yeah, I realize T&T wouldn't exist at all if that happened, causing a bigger hole and we don't want that. :x

Not T&T as a whole....


...actually, I guess a few important elements would be pretty much removed if it was...

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Also, if I may add

Phoenix's disbarment wouldn't happen either.

Very true. Because this is, basically, as if the writers considered it this way when it was written (1-5 the most 'recent' case). Forget alternate timelines for a minute; I think we can all agree on this point: 1-5 is regarded as if its events supersede and are more important than any other part of Phoenix's career/plot, as if it was THE most recent case in his story with events and endpoint there having priority over any other part of Phoenix's timeline (even if it occurred later.) It is indeed written as if 1-5 is the most recent trial (sans the flashback trial.)

Would AJ have made sense if 1-5 was set after 3-5? Yes, it would have still featured discontinuity, but far less of it and could have made greater 'transitional' changes off 3-5. However, it is NOT after 3-5 and the writers know it. Yet it is written as if it is the most recent case in the actual plot, deeming the others superseded and irrelevant and redundant to the scenario.

Since 1-5 is written as the most recent case with any consequences in the scenario, and any continued scenario for Phoenix arc in entirety would have game 2 and 3 (especially 3-5) cases exerting significant impact and consequence (precedenting and outweighing 1-5 in most cases), you can see the starting logic that this is a separate scenario and conceptual timeline.

And here's another very important thing - even though all the 'Easter Egg' refs are all totally indirect and only form context in plays' heads, ALL the cases they reference are FILLER CASES, INCONSEQUENTIAL to Phoenix's actual PLOT. Sure, a case like 2-3 gets vaguely referenced in 2-4 (Maya's near the Big Top, Edgewotht's airport scene is tacked into it) but its removal wouldn't seriously impact the actual overall STORY of Phoenix Arc, or delete significant character development. The main plot advancing and character developing cases of GS2 and 3 are 2-2, 2-4, 3-1 (admittedly so long ago it's irrelevant by GS4), and 3-5. NONE of these are referenced in GS4, even by Easter Eggs.

There's only the magatama, but this is not an Easter Egg but a gemeplay mechanic, it's stripped of all meaningful contextual association to 2-2, even gets a new music to avoid nostalgic association. 'I got this after a certain case' could mean anything. It's not even 'my assistant gave it to me' all association to Maya and the actual 2-2 is gone, and really, Maya could have given him a magatama in any number of situations after 1-5, magatamas aren't new to GS2, she and Mia were wearing them by 1-1.

It can't be put down merely to 'writing error'. Takumi would be well aware 1-5 happened before GS2, and surely Matsukawa also. Matsukawa handled the DS re-release of 1-3, though 1-5 was the only new writing, everyone involved knows 3 is set AFTER 1-5 in the timeline and would supersede it in event and characterisation precedence. Even if Matsukawa chose to disregard this order, Takumi would NOT be writing a NEW conceptual timeline branching off 1-5 by accident. And observe his quotes. It's not accidental:


Do you see where the valid reasoning for alternate conceptual timeline comes from? This IS a different conceptual scenario, not the same one as GS2-3. Maybe in the alt. timeline some of the same events and cases occurred even. But some of the fundamental events (ie. non-filler) and major character development cases did not, and there are not even 'Easter Eggs' to allude they ever could have existed. In this alternate conceptual timeline, the major plot points and character development of Phoenix's story beyond 1-5 did NOT occur, thus it's an alternate scenario for the character to the actual GS2-3.

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Um, I just remembered something.

I kinda slept on this thought, but, does ANYBODY remember that 1-5 WASN'T originally part of the Phoenix Wright plot to begin with? It was a special case bought to the DS to impliment the DS features, like, the microphone?

So.. TECHINCALLY, if it just went the way it should have done originally, (PW, JFA, T&T) by the time Apollo comes around and Ema's in the story, both sides of the spectrum would go "Wtf? Who is this kook with the Snackoos and what's her back story?" Since Capcom doesn't give spoilers, the only thing that we'll know is that they have a history with a case; one that techincally didn't happen.

Also, icer, as insignificant those filler cases MAY be, they were good for the plot as a whole... And I don't think Maya giving that Magatama was exactly a filler case... That's the case that basically started the whole Fey mess in the first place. Although, I will agree... Something's a little fishy here.

Maybe you'll just ignore this post, too, but I have an explanation to the Magatama thing.

Note that the scene was in the MASON system. And what's the MASON system? A software, an interactive collection of recording put together with some editing. By editing, I mean, adding the psyche-locks and the comments at the beginning, the end and during transitions. All this is to make the jury understand what's going on. Now, the whole thing is confusing enough. Would it be a good idea to confuse it more by saying "Maya gave it to me"? I mean, the jurist don't know who Maya is, so why complicate it by mentioning someone who is irrelevant to the case AND is a strange person anyway (who'd just bring up more questions in the heads of the viewers).
All they needed to know was that Phoenix has the magatama and what's it for.

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I'm sorry. Under no circumstance was the MASON System the literal presentation to the in-game jury. It was a gameplay device to tell story to the PLAYER. Oh see this thread.

Either that, or the entirety of 4-4 took place in the MASON System and wasn't even real. Maybe the whole game did and Phoenix will escape the Matrix MASON System! Don't discuss the MASON System here please or try to use it as 'evidence'. We will probably never be able to conclusively define where the 4th wall breaking begins and ends.

See, alternate conceptual timelines are nothing after 2-4 and 4-4 bad ends and MASON insanity.

Yes. GBA GS1-3 did not have 1-5.
The DS re-release of GS1-3 had updated graphics etc. but the only new case written was 1-5. 1-5 was handled by a different producer than original GS1-3. The same producer who also did GS4 obviously. Note NEW case for the nEW story. That's why the alternate scenario timeline starts off the end of 1-5. No doubt, if they'd decided to writer 1-5 at say, end of GS2 timepoint, the alt timeline would have continued off there etc etc. 1-5 is the timelinebreaker because it's the 'new' story.

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This argument holds no water. Why can't a new writer write a prequel/midquel and a sequel to a pre-existing story? It's not like it hasn't been done.

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^What's that supposed to mean? I never said they 'can't'. I'm explaining what obviously happened. The alternate timeline starts at the alternate NEW case in this particular instance. I didn't say 'Because they wrote a new case, this PROVES that an alternate timeline HAD to occur.' I'm just pointing out because they DID choose to write an alt timeline in this instance, that is where it branched off from. Sure it's possible to write a new case without later starting a new timeline off it, but they chose a different option.



GS4 - This is an ASSUMPTION. The 4th Gyakuten Saiban franchise game doesn't mean it has to be a literal continuation of the GS3 plot scenario. It isn't, we all know they're starting a new arc. Phoenix originally wasn't even going to be returned and they probably would have still called it GS4 then. The Sims 3 is the 3rd Sims game, but it doesn't mean it continues the exact scenario of the Sims 2.

The retuning character - This is an ASSUMPTION, that the character returned was Phoenix from the exact 3-5 scenario. Takumi already said 'new story'. Then they demand 'return character'. Not 'return character from same scenario.' The media is filled with precedents of a famous character being returned to multiple scenarios which don't necessarily fit on the exact same timeline.

The Magatama - you're making the ASSUMPTION that it's not just a gameplay mechanic and that Phoenix could never have obtained a magatama from Maya at any point of time except the exact 2-2 scenario we saw in GS2. This is a huge assumption, since, even in an alternate scenario, Phoenix and Maya were good friends post 1-4 and she could have given him a magatama at any other time. Maya and Mia had magatamas in GS1 so it wasn't like magatamas were only invented for GS2. You're making the assumption that all the disassociation (not relating it to Maya at all, not relating it to 2-2, changing the music) has not disconnected it from 2-2's plot and made it only a game mechanic.

You're making the assumption that the Easter Eggs, even though they have no actual bearing on the plot or scenario and are only indirect, are indicative of past history in this same scenario and are NOT just Easter Eggs and that these vague references indicate that the entirety of character development and scenario of GS2 and 3 also occurred (even though this is highly contradicted by characterisation in-game including in '7 years ago'.) You choose to ignore a load of contradictions as you decide they are somehow irrelevant.

In other words, you have no 'undeniable proof'. GS4 was just a mess conceptually and a murky grey area. All your 'facts' are actually based on several million 'assumptions' (like you no doubt claim mine are. Stop trying to take the 'right' high ground.) It would be better if we can have a productive conversation instead of arguing about arguing all the time. I only replied to this one because you might claim I'm trying to avoid it or something.

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Well, yes and no. The Magatama, although Mia and Maya and now at this time, Pearl, have/has a Magatama, prior to 2-2, this really had no significance beside the fact that the Fey clan just simply wore them. The Magatama had a purpose, to unlock the secrets of the heart. Now, I can understand why Phoenix didn't just come out and say "Maya" had given this to me. It doesn't matter WHO gave him the Magatama, but all we needed to know was the purpose and what it does. Yes, although that we as the previous players prior to the AJ series know the significance of the Magatama, that makes it all the more special.

Those who just played AJ and only AJ think of it as a game mechanic in the MASON system.



Well, the point of the Easter Eggs are for the (please excuse my spelling) nostglia of the series. Like Maya and the DVDs and the Magican Grand Prix (as I've seen some people say). The mentioning of those things in my opinion, should make us smile and say "Haha, I remember her" or "Max Galactica? What a character." Because we automatically associate those things with certain characters. Now, also, if I may reference... the 7 years was a little more significant than we all think too. Now.. IF my memory serves, 5 years ago from 1-1, Mia met Phoenix. A year before that, Mia met Melissa Foster. Oh? 7 years ago, Phoenix got disbarred.

I think there's a lot stuff that we should really look into with the Apollo arc and somehow make sense of it all. TECHINCALLY, it should follow the 3-5, ending Phoenix's arc, but why doesn't it? Was it because of writer's error? Or there's something that we as the players are susposed to figure out?

In my honest opinion, during the flashback trial via the MASON system, we can safely assume that those are Phoenix's thoughts into that trial. I think there's A LOT more to that case than what meets the eye. I think we'll be referencing to that case for a while.. and for another reason as well, because of Apollo's arc.

I think that case holds a lot more questions than answers.

Interesting you bring this up. You interpreted it one way, I interpreted it another. For example, who said that the new and old stories couldn't interact? Who said they had to be totally seperate. When they talked about "no more chapters" that would mean about Phoenix as a lawyer, perhaps not after he stopped being a lawyer. Of course, that wasn't the original intention, but I believe that they ended up having to make it that way.

As for your responses, thanks for that. But it does seem clear you and I stand on two seperate sides of the fence and cannot be swayed. Maybe we should move on...


I do like the idea Hananosei brings up about 4-4 being not totally seen by us. Perhaps there is more to it that we don't have a clue about. If there is, I'd love to see it.

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As much as I love the conversation, all I have to add is that the Magatama music was the same as the old one, just redone.

I mean, it's the same tune with DS sound capabilities. Could you not recognize the tune?

I don't know why they kept the court music the same for the flashback and not the magatama, but my guess is that the court case was tailored that way for specific nostalgia (Hey, I remember this music!), and the magatama's use was for something completely new (case in point: No old music was used for the MASON simulations; they were all new pieces like the Misham theme and Kristoph's theme), so a small remake was in order. Of course, the exception was the Detention Center theme for the past. I don't have a good reason for that one. So go ahead, twist the words of these sentences or rebut them or whatever, but the point stands that the Magatama music was the same, only updated for the DS engine.

EDIT:
Hotti's music was in as well, and that too was updated.

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Last edited by Emperor Ing on Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

And, for the record, Hotti's (music) was as well.

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I also always thought that we've seen only a little bit from 4-4's story.
Those investigation parts recorded in the MASON system weren't even that close to each other. They were just short sections.
it's not like a case we played as Phoenix where we see everything he does in a 2-3 days period. Only the things that had significance to the solution.

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Hmm well for GS5 there's a few things I want some new some old.
Firstly I want some better characters. I know that's it's only one game so some characters such as Apollo were unable to develop which is fair but take for example GS3 had some of the best characters such as Dahlia and Godot and they only made their apperance in GS3. Also the prosector has to be better .Klavier was cack with him being famous and doing the court of law at the same time.
Secondly I'd like to see the Magatama make more of a frequent show alongside apollo's braclet. I thought the Magatama was one of the coolest ideas and it only made an apperance for case 4 of GS4. Maybe Phoenix could give it to Apollo or something.
Thirdly I want to see the return of one of the main characters(Prefebaly Maya) and known what they've gotten up to. Also several Cameo's would be nice.
Fourth Maybe we could delve in to Kristoph gavin's past as a defense lawyer and how he meet with phoenix or even some of the other old cast prosecutors.

Honestly a part of me wants alot of the old cast to return but I thought 3-5 was utterly brilliant another part of me wants to leave it at that. But I want to find out what happened to Godot. Also Wendy windbag FTW!

I read a few posts on this page and got the jist of what the argument is.

Hotti/Hickfield was in the game because they were too lazy to design a new character/make a new sprite. He's also a throwback to the first trilogy and his change of name can easily be BSed because he's crazy.

There, I've now taught you guys how to think like a person who writes Gyakuten Saiban. Now shut the hell up about alternate timelines and canon and what not and go back to talking about how Edgeworth should be in GS5 so he can butt rape Phoenix.

It's hard though how all the old cast were pretty much left unexplained so at least that needs to be done. Also another point is that I wasn't too fond of the music in GS4 I liked GS1 and GS3 music the best so I think some of those should come back.

The tune was the same. The MUSIC was not. The tune is a property of the Magatama itself, it would be ridiculous to invent a new tune for the magatama. Magatama has magatama theme tune as an attribute, just like it's green and magatama-shaped. The tune is also a property of 'weird creepy doctor guy'.

However, the specific MUSIC is a property and association of GS2 itself. GS1/1-5 actual MUSICS get returned as nostalgia and association to them is permitted. GS2/3 MUSICS are never 'allowed' to be returned and EFFORT is actually expended to re-do them so now they are not associated with GS2 directly. It would have been far less time and effort and an easy nostalgia trip for old players to just keep the old Magatama (and for that matter, 'Hotti' music) music, but instead it's so integral to the production to disassociate from GS2 directly that new musics are made.

There'd be more to that Magnifi incident which they no doubt plan to drag up. In terms of Phoenix himself and the trial, I think we've seen it all though. Unless they invent stuff in hindsight.

Why should I 'shut the hell up' about alternate timelines? You have to at the very least admit they did a hopeless job as a 'continuation' of GS3. My alternative to the alternate timeline, is that Phoenix, Maya and Edgeworth should return to the spotlight, reinstate the ret-coned GS2 and 3 character development and give Phoenix a new deserved happy ending resolution, and I no longer care if it derails 'Apollo's' story to do so, since apparently nobody is interested in compromise. As an alternative to that, Phoenix should just not appear at all in GS5. There should be one line where Trucy tells Apollo 'Daddy's gone to live with a friend' or 'Daddy's gone to be a lawyer again off-screen, since you have your own law firm now Apollo.'

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The tune was the same, but the music was not.

Ok.


Do you want some more straws to grasp at?

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I think the reason a lot of people were pissed off with AJ is that Phoenix suffered and lost his ability to do something great in the world. (Losing Attorney's Badge and not being able to defend.) My response to that is.

Phoenix Wright does not have to have a happy resolution after T&T with AJ. Losing his Attorney's badge, was another part of Phoenix's life, and things like that happen to people in reality.

It's like people expect Phoenix to be some sort of god and be invincible to reality. People, Phoenix Wright is a human being, nothing more, nothing less. He may have deserved a great life after all he did in GS 1-3, but bad things happen to good people. People need to except the fact that this is something Phoenix has dealt with, and now he can move on with his life however the game designers feel like.

I had no issue with Phoenix in AJ, the losing his Attorney's badge plotline gave him a lot more depth and made him into a more developed and well executed character than in GS 1-3. (I'm gonna so be shot for saying this.)

Yes I know about the current argument regarding AJ being in a alternate universe after Rise From The Ashes/1-5 and not be ing related to GS 2-3. I think the argument has been well put together but I have my own thoughts on that matter and personally disagree with it.


Now as for old characters returning. I think everyone needs to wait before GK comes out to determine putting any old characters in the future AJ games. However if GK doesn't effect any of these characters majorily then here's who I'd like to see make a cameo at best.



The debate at hand is quite interesting. I'll reply in good time.

Have to agree with this.

The thing about stories and everything is, happy endings don't stay happy. That's why movies and stuff tend to cut to the credits and leave people with a happy picture because if life were to continue, bad things happen because that's the way things are. For example, since I've been on a nostalgia binge, let's take the Buffy series. If we were to isolate season 1 you could easily cry happy ending with the whole Buffy and Angel thing. But life moves on, a hell of a lot of nightmarish things happen, lots of heartbreak occurs, new "happy resolutions" occur (to be interupted by more bad things as life goes on), and the time with Angel becomes another point in her life but it isn't dependant on that.

I won't say that Phoenix doesn't miss being a lawyor or isn't bitter over what happened but he's had 7 years. For the time we DO see him on screen, considering he doesn't look suicidal, is pretty cheerful, and loves his daughter, I'd say he's moved on a little. 4-4 gives another key resolution to his life.

Also, to the point about 'why didn't anyone run to Phoenix's side once they found out?'. First off, we're only seeing a small sliver of time. Anything could have happened in the time off panel. Plus, you have to wonder how long it would take for them to find out depending on where they were at the time. For example, let's assume Edgeworth is abroad as usual, Maya/Pearl are at Kurain, Larry is chasing after a new girl (he chased a girl to Tibet, it's feasible), whatever. The thing is, the characters have lives that don't revolve around Phoenix so it's not likely they track every little thing that happens to him. I know that if I were Phoenix I wouldn't be calling up my old pals and telling them about what happened to me. It'd be hard, it'd be humiliating, and I wouldn't want to deal with the sting of it all with people close to me because it won't change what happened. I wouldn't be surprised if Phoenix's old friends had to contact him first before he would talk to them about it.

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