I just happen to like Nicks' freakout face better than Polly's.... I mean WTF?!

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Well, going back on-topic.

I disagree with a few things that have been said here.

"In AJ everyone got curled up into a bad ending."
That's not true at all. In fact, everyone that appeared (Well, that is, except the villains) ends happy. Apollo expresses clear desire to "keep at this law thing". Trucy is satisfied with her daddy that can't play the piano and loud-voiced friend. Phoenix seems to not really have a problem with being a hobo, as you can see in the ending, when he seems to have some hesitation about retaking the bar. Klavier finally found out that truth he spent seven years wondering about. And Stickler gets a nickname that fits his particularly inquisitive nature. Yes, curiosity is a sickness, and he's the cure!

"Phoenix's relationship to Mia works the same way as Apollo's relationship to hobo Phoenix."
I disagree. The main difference is the personality of the "mentors" (Some people said Phoenix is Apollo's mentor. Poor Kristoph, being ignored that way), and their states. Initially Mia could only pop up in terribly tense situations. Then, she starts poppig up only at the stressful ones. But that's not what Phoenix does. In fact, he only steps into Apollo's court actions directly in his own trial -- after that, the closest he gets to a courtroom is the defendant lobby, or the jury room if it's closer by. And this gets down to one point: Phoenix helped Apollo a lot less.

"Apollo is Phoenix's 'pawn'."
Well, that was basically said anyway. And although it's already been disagreed with strongly enough, there are things that can be said. If Apollo really was a "pawn", he'd be choicelessly stuck to his situation. But that's not true. He could up and leave anytime he wanted. All he'd need would be find another law firm. And that wouldn't be hard, specially after 4-3 or 4-4, in which he successfully defends, respecitvely, a famous pianist and a client being tried under a new law system which makes the case totally famous and totally watched by the eyes of the nation. But he chose to be there. He wants to be in Phoenix's agency.

"Maya could have sticked to being both a legal assistant and a spirit medium."
Tell me exactly when she appears in the MASON recap. I'd think a legal assistant would be, like, you know, being a legal assistant.

"We should at least be pointed to a direction as to where did some old characters go."
What for?

"A good point in making Phoenix a lawyer again is that he can just go be a lawyer and leave Apollo alone, getting him the spotlight so many people want him to get."
Let's not forget AJ is still GS4, and the next game is still GS5. We can't have a series where two games are completely unrelated and don't have a single character in common. Just making Phoenix pop out and disappear of the plot would be reducing "GS5" into "5".

"Phoenix used Apollo to clear him off the suspicions."
Phoenix used Apollo to find the truth and make it known. Is there something really wrong with it?

Fix'd.

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I agree with you, Fey Sage. Apollo is not bad, he is actually quite good!!

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This has been brought up before in the topic, but when you examine certain things in 4-4 you can clearly see Phoenix really does miss being an attorney, like when he yells OBJECTION! to a pointing statue, then exclaims "I've got to stop torturing myself! I can't believe it's been 7 years." then tries to pretend it's pointing for some other reason, putting him in a state of denial. Anyone that makes the claim he dosen't miss his job is just kidding themselves.

Also regarding what he said in the credits, keep in mind he's lately been rather vague and covering up his true feelings about things. It's not until 4-4's flashbacks that we learn what he really feels about what happened.

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Just because he misses being an attorney, it doesn't automatically mean he's not comfortable with being a hobo.

this is a stupid argument. they left phoenix's desires ambiguous on purpose.

Maybe, but that was mainly due to the fact he couldn't do anything about it. That disbarment was keeping him from becoming a lawyer again, so he tolerated it for as long as he needed to. Now that the oppertunity has come where he's been cleared of the charges and taken down Kristoph, he can actully do something real with his life now, like become a lawyer again.

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Look, where does Phoenix show any sign of emotion that he disliked being disbarred?

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Play through 4-4's flashbacks again and examine various things, you'll be surprised just how much the whole ordeal is tormenting Phoenix.

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That doesn't prove he's unhappy at the present.

Of course he's not happy about the circumstances of why he isn't a lawyer anymore. But he doesn't seem terribly upset about how his life turned out. I really see him being happy doing what he did in AJ - fixing the court system from outside the courtroom. If he hadn't suffered so brutally because of the old system, the Jurist system would never have happened and Gavin would have walked. It was a truly painful experience for him, but Phoenix is a forward-thinking person. He just keeps focusing on the injustice with lightning precision.

And it's because of Phoenix that Apollo can actually practice law in a system that will hopefully not be stacked against him by default in the future. Seriously, nobody would want to be a lawyer in a system like that in real life.

They demonstrate he actually misses being a lawyer. [And hates piano, BTW]


There are probably more but it's not like I'm going to go through the whole script.

Oh and let's not forget all that 'grape juice' addiction - hey, it literally is grape juice, but we all know what it's a metaphor for. And addictions are dysfunctional coping mechanisms, no matter what they are and don't indicate happiness.


That's true. Phoenix's end comment was deliberately ambiguous, since the writers wouldn't have known what they might do with him in future (and I suspect they still don't.) Though, based on his obvious dislike of piano in 4-1 and 4-4, I'll be annoyed if they suddenly start claiming he conveniently started liking it.

I suppose we should stop complaining and arguing and try and figure out how to [hypothetically] resolve this 'issue'. A lot of people genuinely became attached to Phoenix's character due to his strong characterisation and story in his arc, and most of those people simply aren't going to 'abandon' Phoenix to focus our sole attention and 'support' on furthering Apollo, (especially if it's at the further expense of Phoenix and/or further deconstruction of his arc.) until we feel the improperly resolved injustice on his character is better resolved. I'm sure a solution is possible which placates the majority of the fanbase. Any ideas?

Well, I'll just copy-paste part of my post on that recently locked thread (Apollo Justice or Phoenix Wright?):


If they've split the fanbase, they've effectively split the target markets. We already see them making a move in this direction with GK. So just brining the old chars (Phoenix and Maya, in addition to the GK types) back in a spinoff (GK2?). I mean they can just show up and visit Edgeworth or something! Everybody would buy both spinoff and GS5 anyway, so they make more money. Failing this, is it really too much to ask that Phoenix gets one case in GS5 (preferably with a few old chars)? They could even make it a 'case' rather than a trial if they're that desperate that only one lawyer is allowed in the universe.

Last edited by icer on Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

If he hated the piano that much, he would've taken the bar straight away.

And one thing I'm still missing. The point in making Phoenix a lawyer again. Although my memory's pretty much failing a bit now, all the reasons I've heard were making Phoenix happy again, and stop "destryoing his arc".

For one, his arc is already long over; after 3-5, Phoenix had already achieved everything he needed. To continue the series, change was inevitable. But it seems like it's also inevitable that, for some people, it sucks if they change it.

For two, suppose Phoenix became a lawyer again. Whee, now everything's bliss, happy, and satisfactory. Not. It'd be pratically wasting a character. Hobo Phoenix is great the way he is and he can beget more interesting plots the way he is. I'd rather have an interesting plot, than some downright useless fanservice.

The point in making him a lawyer is that a large contingent of fans got very pissed off by the decision to make Phoenix a hobo, and having him re-take the bar would correct this to some extent. Personally, I'm not concerned about the storyline implications; I want to see this group of fans (myself included) satisfied by some corrective measure, so that Phoenix can finally stop being the sole center of the AA universe. Apollo has potential, but as long as Phoenix is around, he will, as you say, be the one initiating the interesting plots. It's a function of simplicity; the writers will have an easier time using Phoenix, a fully developed character with more connections to the world and a thoroughly understood thought process, as the plot instigator than they will using Apollo, who is new, presently a subordinate character to Phoenix, whose line of reasoning doesn't have 4 games' worth of canon behind it.

As for change being inevitable, of course it is. Everyone and everything changes. However, in this case (as opposed, of course, to real life) the change was completely controllable. There were any number of interesting modifications they could have made to Phoenix's life without stripping him of what people had come to understand was the thing that gave his life meaning. That change was simply too radical to be easily acceptable, and to be perfectly honest, as icer is arguing, it made Phoenix miserable. Those of us who want to see him back as a lawyer (I'm generalizing here) got fairly pissed off that they decided to take so much from a character we loved, seemingly in a fit of pique after the Powers That Be told them Phoenix had to be in GS4. Basically, the problem here is that change is fine, but this was the wrong change, and we want to see them go back to the drawing board and try again.

I can't help but think that the optimal solution is to give 5-1 over to Phoenix passing the bar exam, and then finding some way to write him out of the storyline (without killing him, of course, since that defeats the purpose.) Once Phoenix isn't there anymore, Apollo can become the center of attention, and that can only be good for this next part of the series.

For one, I don't agree with "writting Phoenix out of the story completely". It would reduce "GS5" to "5".

Also, IMO, GS4 was pretty much a platform. A platform that will rise to an awesome GS5. A set-up. And the best is still yet to come. And I wager that, once the best comes, we will see Apollo rise at his and 100% his own credit, as well as other things such as we find out more about his past. This might even extend to GS6 or, who knows, further.

On that view, I guess it wouldn't matter if Phoenix was a lawyer or not. I'd be fine with either, as long as he's not written completely out of the plot, nor taking over it. And maybe, as long as whether he is a lawyer or not actually has a bearing in the plot.

And maybe one reason why I don't really think it matters is because I got GS4 before the rest of the PW games, so I met the hobo before the lawyer.

I think it could be a little bit difficult to write him out...
Considering it's his "talent agency"
And that is his daughter and all...
But I do think that they should tone down his involvement in GS5, step aside and let Apollo have his time.
I personally positively love Apollo
And find him more attractive than Phoenix... *innocently whistles as if she said nothing*

Well I have to agree with that. Completely writing him out of the story kind of destroys the whole point of bringing him back. Maybe it just depends on how his character's used.

To me, becoming a lawyer would be the ideal thing for him too do. Not only would it give the writers a good excuse to do the tutorial case (him being quizzed in a mock trial, as I stated in another topic), but it would also give him something to do to stay out of the spotlight people want Apollo to be in so badly. He can be uninvolved for a while, maybe making a quick apperence or two in the other cases, up until the final case where he lends a small hand in helping Apollo with his case. One of the things I loved about the original trilogy was seeing all the main characters pull together to help a friend in need, and I'd love it if the writers brought this back in case 5-4 (or maybe if they're not lazy, 5-5).

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Yeah, it did seem that the writers were almost overreacting. "But we didn't want to return Phoenix! You demand Phoenix? We'll give you Phoenix! Let's see how you like this?"

One of the main misgivings people have with game 4 is that the sheer level of irony it casts on game 1-3 is nothing short of cruel. For new players, they're oblivious to the ironic deconstruction the game places on the original trilogy and even if they eventually play the trilogy later, since the Apollo game was their introduction it probably won't affect them.

For people who enjoyed the original trilogy, it depends exactly what people liked about that trilogy. If people just liked the general cases and a few semi-major characters, most of that is replicated just fine in game 4. However, the strong characterisations and plots of game 1-3 led to many people genuinely enjoying the series for its major characters themselves (Phoenix, Edgeworth, Maya, Mia etc) and the plots but also many of the themes behind them. And a lot of those very themes get deconstructed in game 4, which is a much darker game, but worse, so do the characters and their lives themselves. [Because 3-5 was designed as the ending for those characters, but it all just evaporates by game 4 since events turn that that ending can no longer apply.]

Now 1-5 I thought the new writers pulled off well, it descended into darker themes like game 4 but didn't destruct the characters and ultimately positive themes in the spirit of the trilogy. If only game 4 had been the same way! But game 4 is a blatantly, almost arrogant ironic contrast on 1-5 and game 1 itself. I get the feeling that when they wrote 1-5 they weren't planning on having Phoenix in game 4 yet, because the level of irony 4 is on 1-5 is just cruel.

For example, even the base theme of game 1 is up for deconstruction. People have noted that Kristoph is very paralleled with Edgeworth (if you don't agree, then how do you explain all those people who used to ship Phoenix/Edgeworth but are forced against their will to assume that he took Kristoph on as a 'substitute' for Edgeworth.) His 'friend' is the only one who stands up for him in the class trial/bar association trial by peers but of course we all know how Kristoph turned out. Phoenix could never believe in him and was genuinely a murderer and his destroyer. Ouch. In 1-5, it's the mutual trust and respect between him and Edgeworth which allows them to bring down the corrupt Gant working from both sides of the courtroom - if it wasn't already obvious, the writers provide that blatant 'two halves of the evidence' thing. And where is Edgeworth in game 4? Gone, maybe not existing for all they give us. Ironic, especially with the 'forged evidence' in 1-5?

Time and time again, Phoenix is a character whose friends truly bring out the best in him - most notably Maya and Edgeworth, they are the reason he isn't just spacing out on the couch. Phoenix sees the best in them and in turn it brings out the best in his character. They remembered this in 1-5 (he mopes and can't even take cases without Maya, only takes Ema's case because it reminds him of Maya and her situation with Mia, and he needs to be in partnership with Edgeworth to mutually bring down Gant). But where are they in game 4? Gone, so far as they show us, oh and he's an evidence-forging hobo. Other characters would have worked without their entourage or proper references to them, Phoenix doesn't because his character actually revolved around them for the last 3 games and even needed it to function.

Taken alone without the 1-3 trilogy, GS4 is a perfectly fine game, just a somewhat weaker game in the similar style. However, as a follow-up to the trilogy (which it is, it stopped being a 'new' series the second they brought back Phoenix in that kind of capacity) it's not merely a sub-standard dessert after a great main course. The closest metaphor I can think of here is that the dessert tastes fine in itself, but it contains ingredients which force you to throw up said great main course, and additional ingredients to render you allergic to the main course so you can't ever eat it again. But, hopefully you'll be persuaded to have another almost-good dessert? It's a slight embellishment, but I do wonder why the writers seemed so eager to alienate so many fans of the old trilogy in the hope of weaning them by traumatic force onto the new (?) Were they gambling the entirety of 1-3 in a failed attempt to convince us of the need for jury systems? I have no idea.

So, main problem: game 4 leaves a bad taste on GAMES 1-3. This is very bad, alienating fans of older series by deconstructing older games to the point they are prevented from enjoying the new games. I can't imagine why they'd want to continue with this, so it would be best for all concerned to better reconcile Phoenix with his old arc. Till then, there will never be concentration on an actual new arc.

I disagree with some things.

Maya and Edgeworth aren't just "gone". It's easy to tell where they most probably are -- Maya is probably at Kurain being a master, Edgeworth is probably still traveling the world and prosecuting under all sorts of law systems. In any case, we don't even know whether they still keep in touch with Phoenix. I don't see anything that shows that they don't. In fact, there is evidence they probably do. A man under suspicion of presenting forged evidence wouldn't be able to change the legal system AND get an important role in the first trial under said system, alone. And it's plain obvious Kristoph wasn't helping him.

I don't think GS4 is particulary darker than the rest of the series. In fact, comparing them, I find AJ much more of a refreshing break from the drama of GS1-3. Said drama wasn't particularly bad, but, a fun break is almost always good. The characters don't seem to be happy with everything that goes on, but they seem to be OK with most. As Apollo says in the ending, they lost hope, but they found it again.

And on the food metaphor, I don't think of GS4 as a dessert. Once you're done with the original trilogy, you're done with a full meal course (With a dessert), and you leave the restaurant. And then, you go back, and GS4 is an apperitive, an entry course. The main meal has yet to come. We can't tell whether we will see some of the ingredients we liked the most last night be put on this new meal, but if it's well done, we can like it. At least, I can.

^As you said above, you played game 4 before you ever played 1-3, and as I said above, a lot of the 'problems' are ones which would not affect new players who only played 1-3 after. (As for the food metaphor, of course it's not your dessert if you played it first. And if it's a 'new' meal, why was the previous day's chewed meal dragged out and served up again [Phoenix.])

So, potential expansion of the fanbase by keeping Phoenix in his place VS disenfranchising new players...Well the haters are still going to buy the new games. DECISIONS DECISIONS!

Point being: GS4 is what all good franchises with decent writers who still want jobs do.

I agree. Plus, the mains characters in AA games are, as you can see, very youngs (22 for Apollo to, err... 25 for Mia in 3-4, isn't it?). In AA5, Phoenix will be 34. Seems too old for me. But I can be wrong, of course. But even so, Capcom won't let Apollo down after only one game.

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Making Phoenix playable wouldn't necessarily make him the main character...

Just sayin'...

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Beh, it comes back to the same point for me, and it's driving me mad. Why oh why oh why are all of the 'Phoenixians' acting as if they are in the majority? If you can't please everyone, you have to pick one side over the other. Therefore, what would you pick? Would you favour the writers original wishes, that most of the purchasers of the game accepted and/or enjoyed. Or would you decide to pander to the small, but vocal minority.

I really don't know how to explain this. I guess I just have a great dislike for fanbase pandering. It helped ruin Sonic. I'd rather the writers be left to their own devices, after all they're likely to be the same people. I mean... Shu Takumi HIMSELF had no beef with it. XD And he'd know who Nick was and who he is.

It's like people moaning about the DBZ movie, when Mr. Toryama seems happy with it.

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before I say what i think should be done im sorry but i just couldnt get into AJ as much as i did pw (now before you say but he hasnt developed his story or phoenix was in there too) even talking about the first game compairing it to AJ i still liked pw better now also people say that phoenix is partially to blame because he was in the AJ game while it is true he was there he wasnt exactly the same phoenix (same character personality changed abit) so in the end hes still just another character...also i really liked maya than trucy...both because her personality and because of her being a spiritual medium which was great thing to see but i really couldnt get into trucy being a magician and all...im sure that AJ will develope in the series

now then sorry that was so much but now to say what i think should be done...
AJ should be allowed to shine more but I myself and im sure many others atleast want to know the story to what happend to all the other characters (maybe they could make a graphic novel to end the PW universe that could be sold with the game) or both AJ and PW could branch out AJ for people new to the series and PW for vetrians of the series (meaning They could make incredibly tough cases to really challenge us) and those are my thoughts

To be honest, I don't think this is a fair argument at all. You are implying that people that like GS4 (like me) enjoyed the first three games for shallower reasons than you. "The people that like GS4 are able to like it because they didn't care about the series as much as WE do to begin wtih." Is that really what you're saying? If not, I'm sorry, but that's what it's starting to sound like.

Takumi Shu created the character of Phoenix Wright. He was also the head writer on GS4. The man who created Phoenix put Phoenix in the state he is in GS4. You can theorize all you like about the writers "getting revenge" on Capcom for forcing them to use Phoenix when they might have chosen otherwise, but leading up to the game's release all the creators displayed nothing but pride in their creation and were happily eager to see the fan's reactions. Every indication on their end is that they thought it was a good idea when they came up with it.

So saying that by enjoying GS4 and especially enjoying Phoenix's new role and personality, it means that you must not have enjoyed and appreciated him in the first three games... that's pretty unfair, don't you think?

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and Apollo's like a generic dumbass

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Not at all. I'm sorry if you interpreted it that way, because that's not what it meant. I said different reasons. There's a wide range of reasons why people enjoy the series, which differ from person to person, but certain elements from the older series which many people liked were not adequately replicated (and not replaced with something new but compelling enough to replace them) and elements some people liked from the older games were disturbed. That's why, I assume, many people were upset over game 4 for various reasons, and some other people find it incomprehensible that we can't just forget Phoenix and pretend this is a 'new' series. The new is fine, and if people love the new game and have no problem with it in relation to the old, that's great. But for some people, it messed with their actual enjoyment of the original games, not just some new, separate series they didn't like quite as much.

And the very fact that we're arguing so much about the future direction of the series indicates that we all do care about it, doesn't it? By the same token some people seem to have the attitude that if we actually care about the series, we're 'supposed' to show our support by throwing our weight behind the cause of Apollo simply because he's (we assume) the future direction of the series, and somehow just forget about any 'Phoenix-related' issues - which a very large amount of people had of various kinds. In fact, due to the execution of game 4, exactly how they're going to handle Phoenix is crucial to the future of the series.


I'm.. afraid I don't quite see the logical leap to that one. I liked Phoenix's character in game 4 a lot. I don't like what they did to his life or the lack of resolution they gave him or their general attitude to him, however. A lot of people share this view. (And some people seem to like the game but hate Hobo Incarnation Phoenix and keep demanding he leave or die or something... there's a lot of them around..)


Why do you think it's a minority? A majority of the players who were big fans of the original series probably liked Phoenix, otherwise they'd be less able to stomach the games. A lot of people liked Phoenix's character a lot, or if not, at least his main supporting cast like Edgeworth (I think he may have more fanbase than even Phoenix), Maya, Mia, less important chars like Franziska, Godot, Gumshoe etc etc. This game revolves around its compelling main characters.

Now, are the 'Phoenix supporters' in the majority at these forums? Probably not, AJ was the most recent game and most of the people still talking about it and discussion is on game 4, so people who didn't like games 4 as much are not still discussing it. However, these forums are only one part of the fan base for these games, there are a lot of fans who don't frequent these forums (I've seen numerous posts on LiveJournal where people state they are too scared to visit these forums or something.) Also some fans who got disenfranchised with the direction of the series quit discussing it (some people actually refused to play game 4 at all, which seemed unjustifiably extreme, other people refuse to recognise it. I assume they simply keep away from anything which does discuss it, like these forums, and probably bury themselves in GS3 era Phoenix/Edgeworth fics.)

We simply have no way to quantify, as I don't think it's even a black and white yes/no issue anyway. There's no such thing as Phoenix OR Apollo. People just have a varying level of disconcert concerning Phoenix's handling and treatment in game 4 (ranging from extreme to none - and yes, the people wanting to get rid of him obviously did have disconcert) and many people have a desire for rectification. Though a lot of those people don't go to the trouble of arguing about it, since they feel it is futile, (and as I said, bury themselves in fanworks, such as Phoenix/Edgeworth fanfics. I get the impression that their main fanbase isn't located here.)

And resolution to the issue wouldn't be Phoenix OR Apollo either.


[Now when are they going to put us out of our misery and just give us some indication that GS5 is even being at least worked on?]

Last edited by icer on Sun Dec 14, 2008 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Okay this is going to sound odd but how they split GS5 into 2 games and Phoenix and Apollo each get their own game?

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But you're still saying that it's the people who liked the first games for it's deep characterization are the ones that are most upset by 4, aren't you? I'm not going to quote it again, but you were differenciating between people who like the games for the gameplay and mystery versus those that focus primarily on the characters and plot.

In general, I think you should stop using "people" in debates like this, since it's pretty clear that none of us can speak for other fans. Majority and minority are meaningless words here.

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Just a quick question-

That's a bad thing.... how?

I haven't even played AJ yet, but just knowing it exists makes me mad at the people in charge. It says to me the same thing as the 3rd season of Digimon-
"Hey, you know those cool people you liked and formed an attatchment with over the course of the series? Kiss 'em goodbye, cause here's some random characters you care nothing about! Maybe if you're lucky, the cool people will cameo every now and then!" with a dash of One More Day's "Hey! Let's completely derail our beloved character for no apparent reason!"
(For those of you who don't know- One More Day was an infuriatingly awful comic arc in Spider-Man in which Pete sold his marriage to MJ to Mephisto, the Marvel Universe's Satan, for Aunt May's life. It's much worse than it sounds, if you can imagine such a thing.)

Last edited by RobbieValiant on Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I'm thinking you should probably play it. And start with an accepting mindset before you reject it.

Hey, I'm still in the middle of the first game, gimme some time! And it's hard to give an accepting mindset to something like this- from the spoilers I've read, Phoenix is no longer the main character and what we do see is a complete derailment of Phoenix's character. *shrugs* But that's just my opinion on plot. I've personally never seen those things done well separately, much less heaped together.

I probably oversimplified when I wrote it then. My bad. Of course there are fans who loved game 4 which also loved 1-3 for deep characterisation, characters etc. But of the people who had varying levels of unease with elements of game 4, I think a lot of them formed significant levels of attachment to characters in the original arc. Things would have been fine if it was actually a new series with a whole new cast but it turned into a strange hybrid follow-up. Also, in terms of tone and themes, I have noticed people comment on the ironic overtones game 4 places on some themes in the trilogy though other people don't notice or care, not because of some kind of 'inferiority' but because like anything, different people find different levels of meaning and interest in different themes and their interpretations.



A view I support, if you also extend it to other posters here. As I said earlier, we have no actual way of quantifying what percentage of the fanbase feels what level of anything on this issue. I'm merely stating what I've observed in various places occupied by the fanbase.

And the topic title was 'Why do people keep insisting..' not 'Why do you keep insisting' so I've been speculating on answers to the question posed by the thread itself. And that seemed to be the original intent of the thread, right?

When faced with a question of "why do people..." I think the most appropriate response actually is to answer on a personal level. Though really, I think the intent of the thread was to get away from the Apollo hate in the other one, which...hasn't been successful XD;;

Anyway, you're right, I think we should *all* stop trying to generalize about other fans and just stick to what we know: our own personal feelings.

[quote=RobbieValiant]Just a quick question-

That's a bad thing.... how?[/quote]

Because Phoenix cannot carry a series by himself forever. To be honest, I thought by T&T it was already starting to feel a little tapped out. The last case especially felt to me like a "You know the drill" situation. They were able to keep it fun with some gimmicks, but ultimately I didn't get any real sense of danger out of it.

By the end of T&T, Phoenix has done it all, pretty literally. If he didn't change gears or go away he would have gotten stale. It's kind of like shonen anime: great for a while, but then long lost acquaintances show up in an attempt to make you care about a character you never knew existed before and ultimately there's a fighting tournament and it's like OMG PLEASE STOP ALREADY.

*ahem* Of course I don't expect Phoenix to enter a tournament, but my point is, I'm glad he got out of law before having to face another perfect genius prosecutor or save Maya from the noose AGAIN.

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Wow, sooo many long posts..... (That i apologise for not reading)
anyway
A few things I must state,
I would have been annoyed had Phoenix not been in GS4
I will be annoyed if Phoenix isn't in GS5

That doesn't mean, though, I want Nick to be the main lawyer of the 2nd arc
No!
The Phoenix arc was great, especially 2-4, 3-3 and 3-5, however, I believe Apollo's arc can be just as great, if not better. Before joining an I HATE AJ! bandwagon, I want to play more of his arc, I would rather like to see Apollo in more situations. We've seen Nick against 6 prosecutors (WP, ME, MVK, FVK, G, KG (young)), whereas we have only seen AJ against 2 (very lenient) ones WP and KG. I'd rather see AJ prove his defending skills against a much more aggressive prosecutor like Godot or the earlier Miles Edgeworth (before the latter half of 1-3).
I think Phoenix should just take a sideline role for the next game, Ie being there to say, well done etc,

Anyway, summarising, I reckon we should wait for AJ2 before we lambast him or compare him to Nick.

This post may seem quite off-topic... I dont know... I just have that feeling the next poster will attack me for that very reason.

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Hmm I am not sure I can say much that hasn't already been said here but I would love to sprinkle my opinion on the matter anyway.

I think they ran out of opinions when they decided to make a forth game with a new character. They could have gotten rid of Phoenix but that would make people very angry or they could add him into the game but changed which evidentially has angered many people as well.

Though I suppose people really wanted Phoenix to just be happy in the end but personally I never saw him as unhappy in Apollo Justice. Sure he wasn't bursting to the seams with smiles but I don't think I would have been happy had he ended up that way.

Also for people who say that Apollo didn't have enough character development it is kind of understandable. I mean if Phoenix had a big shot lawyer who a lot of people preferred running the show in his game I think his character would be underdeveloped as well.

As for GS5 I think they will have some troubles here. I mean I think it would be a good idea to have Phoenix not in this one (or at least not as much) but being Trucy's father and all it would make it hard to just have him leave somewhere. (Especially after playing such a large role in this game.)

This probaly will sound stupid, but I feel that I should apologize for creating this thread, like Croik said, I created this thread to get away from the Apollo hate, but I never wanted to started a Phoenix hate, what I wanted to ask why so much people in the other thread were so desperate to bring Phoenix back and ditch Apollo, I mean why the Phoenix supporters and the Apollo supporters can't get along?

I want Apollo to develop more, but I also want to see the old characters back, why can't they do both? Something like "past meets present" or "two worlds collide", it would be interesting to see different characters interact between themselves.

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I have to agree with Fey Sage...I like both of them...there both good characters and why can't we all just get along?

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