fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
yaoi fangirl :P
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comes up with to make up for that.
Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
Bwaaah!
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And plus,
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Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
yaoi fangirl :P
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but you have a point about ema's stuff having to be storebought. if dna testing is taking over the fingerprinting dealio, it's not exactly easy to buy a dna testing kit at the store.
Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
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Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
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Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
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Underqwertyuiop wrote:
DNA testing would make for an interesting touch screen minigame, but I think it would make the games a bit too easy. I like fingerprints, they can make the cases so confusing.
I don't see how it would really be any different...? I mean, the fingerprints are myseterious when you don't know whose they are, and the same would go for DNA. Likewise, planted DNA or planted fingerprints, isn't it the same general idea?
Also, I don't see how DNA testing would be a terribly exiting "mini-game", because the thing that's interesting about fingerprinting is that you have to blow the powder off... With DNA, as far as I remember, you kinda just... wait. And then when the lines are set, you compare them. It's not much fun.
Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
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jeti wrote:
Underqwertyuiop wrote:
DNA testing would make for an interesting touch screen minigame, but I think it would make the games a bit too easy. I like fingerprints, they can make the cases so confusing.
I don't see how it would really be any different...? I mean, the fingerprints are myseterious when you don't know whose they are, and the same would go for DNA. Likewise, planted DNA or planted fingerprints, isn't it the same general idea?
Also, I don't see how DNA testing would be a terribly exiting "mini-game", because the thing that's interesting about fingerprinting is that you have to blow the powder off... With DNA, as far as I remember, you kinda just... wait. And then when the lines are set, you compare them. It's not much fun.
You can't just plant DNA...Wait, how would you find this DNA in the first place? I mean DNA is in like blood and...semen... but I mean, why would a criminal ejaculate onto a crime scene? Wait, that would be an interesting case...
Wait, what was I talking about again?
Oh right what's the point of the DNA tests?
Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
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Underqwertyuiop wrote:
You can't just plant DNA...Wait, how would you find this DNA in the first place? I mean DNA is in like blood and...semen... but I mean, why would a criminal ejaculate onto a crime scene? Wait, that would be an interesting case...
Wait, what was I talking about again? Oh right what's the point of the DNA tests?
Wait, what was I talking about again?
Oh right what's the point of the DNA tests?if polly takes a rape case and has to analyze semen, i'm definitely buying that game and not just downloading it XD
as for DNA tests...they're starting to find that fingerprints aren't exactly the most accurate way to pinpoint a criminal. for example, let's say
's fingerprints are on a piece of evidence. 
could get convicted of that crime because she and iris share the same fingerprints (being twins and all). a DNA test would prove dahlia is innocent. somehow i think that's backwards...but you get the idea.of course fingerprints can also be forged which further complicates things. people haven't found a way to forge DNA yet.
Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
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Underqwertyuiop wrote:
jeti wrote:
Underqwertyuiop wrote:
DNA testing would make for an interesting touch screen minigame, but I think it would make the games a bit too easy. I like fingerprints, they can make the cases so confusing.
I don't see how it would really be any different...? I mean, the fingerprints are myseterious when you don't know whose they are, and the same would go for DNA. Likewise, planted DNA or planted fingerprints, isn't it the same general idea?
Also, I don't see how DNA testing would be a terribly exiting "mini-game", because the thing that's interesting about fingerprinting is that you have to blow the powder off... With DNA, as far as I remember, you kinda just... wait. And then when the lines are set, you compare them. It's not much fun.
You can't just plant DNA...Wait, how would you find this DNA in the first place? I mean DNA is in like blood and...semen... but I mean, why would a criminal ejaculate onto a crime scene? Wait, that would be an interesting case...
Wait, what was I talking about again?
Oh right what's the point of the DNA tests?I meant like hair or stuff, man.
... But I like your style.
Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
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As long as it's not as complicated as the second CSI game for PC, it's all good. Seriously, I was constantly getting yelled at by the CSIs for getting it wrong and it looked right, other than that one tiny spot in the upper left-hand corner that nobody could have seen. Grr.
Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
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autopsy
yeahs?
so we made the autopsy report ourself now
i think its a great idea
but im sure it'll be quite disgusting.
Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
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peach_zelda wrote:
fingerprinting becoming obsolete is news in europe. and that news is starting to spread internationally.
Fingerprinting has been obsolete for a LOOOOONG time. Why the government still does it, probably because of contract regulations. They also don't have much else to go on. I mean, what am I supposed to give them? A DNA and stool sample?
Footprints would be an interesting association though. I think they should do that. I don't think it's going to be so bad that I'll have to submit DNA/blood/stool samples whenever I'm summoned for a random drug test.
A friend of mine has been working at the same place for 5 straight years. On one of his badge renewals he was denied. He asked the guy in back what was going on and apparently his fingerprints match with a convicted bank robber. Funny part is that said convict is STILL doing time right now. My point? You can't just go on fingerprints.
Lana_Skyes_Heart wrote:
SO I was stuck all day inside the changing room with nothing but a glued on bra.
Panty thief strikes again!
Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
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DaemonForce wrote:
Footprints would be an interesting association though. I think they should do that.
Not a lot of people go walking around barefoot. ._.;; And shoes aren't exactly the most reliable of sources either.
kristoff r ebil. ph33r h1m. Ava by Vickinator.
Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
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(Witty Name Here) wrote:
Not a lot of people go walking around barefoot. ._.;; And shoes aren't exactly the most reliable of sources either.
No no I'm talking about Footprint IDing for badging. The purpose is simply to ID an individual because fingerprints aren't reliable. Getting someone's fingerprints AND footprints to match might be a bit more secure. Crime scenes can go every which way.
Lana_Skyes_Heart wrote:
SO I was stuck all day inside the changing room with nothing but a glued on bra.
Panty thief strikes again!
Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
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but yes DNA testing is more accurate and probably would make a crime scene more confusing. One person can grab a lot of hair, some skin flakes, and some blood and point the crime at one another.
Mwahahahaha... I know you too well...
Deviant art I have barely any watchers so some people actually looking at my stuff would be nice.
Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
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Underqwertyuiop wrote:
I mean, why would a criminal ejaculate onto a crime scene?
There have been multiple reports of criminals ejaculating at non-rape crime scenes for various theorized psycho-sexual reasons. If you want to read more about it, I suggest finding some psychological articles on the topic; it's quite diverse.
Insofar as DNA testing is concerned: I do biomedical research, and I have run multiple DNA tests myself. Ema would not only have to buy a kit (which can run quite high); she would also need all the equipment to run the PCR and the gel, an ultraviolet photographer to develop the gel, or, if needed, a sequence to confirm specific base-pare sequences. This is all extremely expensive. The reagents themselves are the cheapest component; we use Invitrogen and Qiagen products in my lab. As of 2008 you cannot just stick DNA into a handheld machine and have it run against a "known" sample, but by 2026 who knows what will be available? In the past few years alone genetics research has seen astronomical progress.
Insofar as a mini-game is concerned, the way you analyze a gel currently is to perform PCR to amplify all of the DNA sequences to be examined, and then to digest the samples with an arbitrary set of restriction enzymes. Restriction enzymes chew up DNA into fragments at specific sites; the same DNA will have the same restriction sites in the same places, so the same-sized fragments will result. Therefore, the unknown DNA sample that matches the "known" (found at the crime scene, usually) will have bands in the same location as the "known".
In reality, gels/PCR/restriction digest go to shit more often than any scientist would like to admit, and you often have to redo to get a decent result. This is, however, as of 2008; given that Gyakuten Saiban 4 took place in 2026, there is ample room to advance current theories and techniques and make an interesting mini-game.
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Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
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Trench Kamen wrote:
the way you analyze a gel currently is to perform PCR to amplify all of the DNA sequences to be examined, and then to digest the samples with an arbitrary set of restriction enzymes. Restriction enzymes chew up DNA into fragments at specific sites; the same DNA will have the same restriction sites in the same places, so the same-sized fragments will result. Therefore, the unknown DNA sample that matches the "known" (found at the crime scene, usually) will have bands in the same location as the "known".
Lack of this point is what made me fail Adv. Bio.
Trench Kamen wrote:
In reality, gels/PCR/restriction digest go to shit more often than any scientist would like to admit, and you often have to redo to get a decent result.
...and this is why I dropped said point entirely.
Lana_Skyes_Heart wrote:
SO I was stuck all day inside the changing room with nothing but a glued on bra.
Panty thief strikes again!
Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
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DaemonForce wrote:
Trench Kamen wrote:
the way you analyze a gel currently is to perform PCR to amplify all of the DNA sequences to be examined, and then to digest the samples with an arbitrary set of restriction enzymes. Restriction enzymes chew up DNA into fragments at specific sites; the same DNA will have the same restriction sites in the same places, so the same-sized fragments will result. Therefore, the unknown DNA sample that matches the "known" (found at the crime scene, usually) will have bands in the same location as the "known".
Lack of this point is what made me fail Adv. Bio.
Trench Kamen wrote:
In reality, gels/PCR/restriction digest go to shit more often than any scientist would like to admit, and you often have to redo to get a decent result.
...and this is why I dropped said point entirely.
What do you mean, lack of this point?
Also, at crime scenes if you are taking DNA from a blood or a hair sample, it's goddamn fucking hard to get a working DNA sample with such little tissue. Red blood cells do not have a nucleus (i.e. no DNA); you're trying to wean out the white blood cells, which are not a significant portion of the blood. Hair I do not work with myself; I do blood analysis, and even given 10 CCs of fresh blood for me to work with, sometimes I don't get a workable sample if things go to hell.
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Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
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Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
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Trench Kamen wrote:
What do you mean, lack of this point?
I would constantly focus on the later. Yes PCRs are easy to screw up and the enzymes would suddenly become the center of my focus for no reason at all. Oh sure I'm trying to clone E.Coli using an enzyme that will break up only the parts I need to copy but there's also quite a bit of garbage that gets cut up by the enzyme too. I don't want to pollute my perfect bacteria sample with this garbage!
Lana_Skyes_Heart wrote:
SO I was stuck all day inside the changing room with nothing but a glued on bra.
Panty thief strikes again!
Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
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Ping' wrote:
making scientific investigation fun and not too repetitive
God, there are days when I wish I knew the secret to this one.
If you cut out sitting around for two hours to do PCR, another few to do restriction digest, and the forty-five minutes or so it takes to pour and run the gel, it would be interesting. Assuming, of course, CAPCOM doesn't use MagicScience or actually thinks up some technologies appropriate for 2026.
You are right, of course. There is a disturbing trend toward discarding the concept of old school detective work and assuming scientific tests can answer every question a crime raises. It's a dangerous mistake to make. I could see an interesting circumstance in which DNA evidence indicates that the defendant was the murderer, but you have to work that much harder to convince the jury that did not happen. Especially given the Jurist System, this is a key point: juries tend to be swayed by anything labeled as "scientific", to consider it some sort of unassailable gospel.
DaemonForce wrote:
Trench Kamen wrote:
What do you mean, lack of this point?
I would constantly focus on the later. Yes PCRs are easy to screw up and the enzymes would suddenly become the center of my focus for no reason at all. Oh sure I'm trying to clone E.Coli using an enzyme that will break up only the parts I need to copy but there's also quite a bit of garbage that gets cut up by the enzyme too. I don't want to pollute my perfect bacteria sample with this garbage!
Well, to make a plasmid, you run the samples on a gel with a ladder and excise and purify only the sequence that you want before ligating it into the competent cells. You are right--PCR and restriction digest leaves a lot of excess junk behind you have to deal with.
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Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
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Trench Kamen wrote:
Well, to make a plasmid, you run the samples on a gel with a ladder and excise and purify only the sequence that you want before ligating it into the competent cells.
But....But how do I know which sequence will work-
Trench Kamen wrote:
You are right--PCR and restriction digest leaves a lot of excess junk behind you have to deal with.
DO NOT WANT!
Lana_Skyes_Heart wrote:
SO I was stuck all day inside the changing room with nothing but a glued on bra.
Panty thief strikes again!
Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
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DaemonForce wrote:
Trench Kamen wrote:
Well, to make a plasmid, you run the samples on a gel with a ladder and excise and purify only the sequence that you want before ligating it into the competent cells.
But....But how do I know which sequence will work-
Trench Kamen wrote:
You are right--PCR and restriction digest leaves a lot of excess junk behind you have to deal with.
DO NOT WANT!
Theoretically, if you digest the plasmid and the isolated PCR sequence with the same set of restriction enzymes, they should ligate together. In reality, it sometimes just plain doesn't work. This is one of many reasons I do not think transformations should be graded--they go to hell for professional scientists all the time, and it's not necessarily anything the technician did wrong.
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illusionary stage network
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Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
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Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
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afan4226 wrote:
maybe in the game we will have to compare hair and fibers
Burn test FTW.
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Phoenix/Edgeworth (NaruMitsu) is gay bar love.
P/E Fanfic: Piano Man @Court Records; updated 01.29.09
illusionary stage network
Phoenix/Edgeworth (NaruMitsu) is gay bar love.
P/E Fanfic: Piano Man @Court Records; updated 01.29.09
Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
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Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
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peach_zelda wrote:
Underqwertyuiop wrote:
You can't just plant DNA...Wait, how would you find this DNA in the first place? I mean DNA is in like blood and...semen... but I mean, why would a criminal ejaculate onto a crime scene? Wait, that would be an interesting case...
Wait, what was I talking about again? Oh right what's the point of the DNA tests?
Wait, what was I talking about again?
Oh right what's the point of the DNA tests?if polly takes a rape case and has to analyze semen, i'm definitely buying that game and not just downloading it XD
as for DNA tests...they're starting to find that fingerprints aren't exactly the most accurate way to pinpoint a criminal. for example, let's say
's fingerprints are on a piece of evidence. could get convicted of that crime because she and iris share the same fingerprints (being twins and all). a DNA test would prove dahlia is innocent. somehow i think that's backwards...but you get the idea.of course fingerprints can also be forged which further complicates things. people haven't found a way to forge DNA yet.
Don't identical twins have the same DNA?
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Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
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Besides, if I wanted a game all about DNA testing and all that jazz, I'd go play one of those CSI-based games instead!
Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
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NinjaMonkey wrote:
Why on earth is fingerprinting obsolete? Each person has a unique fingerprint (assuming no twins and such), so I don't see any problems.
DaemonForce wrote:
A friend of mine has been working at the same place for 5 straight years. On one of his badge renewals he was denied. He asked the guy in back what was going on and apparently his fingerprints match with a convicted bank robber. Funny part is that said convict is STILL doing time right now. My point? You can't just go on fingerprints.
Jesus is Lord.
Death Note is awesome.
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Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
No DSis in the courtroom please.
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GoDot-FanGirl wrote:
how about
autopsy
yeahs?
so we made the autopsy report ourself now
i think its a great idea
but im sure it'll be quite disgusting.
autopsy
yeahs?
so we made the autopsy report ourself now
i think its a great idea
but im sure it'll be quite disgusting.
Hmm. i Think that would be cool actually.
It would probably get to like, Trauma center under the knife.
And I don't this we want this guy ->
to be doin any opperations either 
Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
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Nevermind.
Plus, DNA is fun. Chimera Syndrome, anyone?
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Superninfreak wrote:
Don't identical twins have the same DNA?
Theoretically, yes. Well, they have the same set of DNA as of the moment in utero at which they split off from the same cell, but any mutations that occur from that point on are usually isolated in one or the other twin. For this reason I foresee the need to analyze epigenetic factors in the future; these are not necessarily identical from one twin to the next.
But this is getting into advanced genetics and molecular biology, and I don't think Gyakuten Saiban will make you sit through that.
FdrlPrsctrTails wrote:
Fingerprinting isn't that obsolete......
Nevermind.
Plus, DNA is fun. Chimera Syndrome, anyone?
Nevermind.
Plus, DNA is fun. Chimera Syndrome, anyone?
No, you're right. It isn't that obsolete. And chimerism is fascinating.
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Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
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Superninfreak wrote:
NinjaMonkey wrote:
Why on earth is fingerprinting obsolete? Each person has a unique fingerprint (assuming no twins and such), so I don't see any problems.
DaemonForce wrote:
A friend of mine has been working at the same place for 5 straight years. On one of his badge renewals he was denied. He asked the guy in back what was going on and apparently his fingerprints match with a convicted bank robber. Funny part is that said convict is STILL doing time right now. My point? You can't just go on fingerprints.
That doesn't answer my question of why fingerprinting is considered 'obsolete'!
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NinjaMonkey wrote:
That doesn't answer my question of why fingerprinting is considered 'obsolete'!
It's obsolete because it isn't foolproof. Then again, nothing really is.
Lana_Skyes_Heart wrote:
SO I was stuck all day inside the changing room with nothing but a glued on bra.
Panty thief strikes again!
Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
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DaemonForce wrote:
It's obsolete because it isn't foolproof. Then again, nothing really is.
QFE.
Which would bring up interesting angles for the new game: can you prove your client innocent even if a scientific test says he or she is guilty? It makes it that much harder to sway a jury.
Still isn't totally obsolete. It's just not the trump anymore.
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Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
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Trench Kamen wrote:
And chimerism is fascinating.
Agreed, except when it happens in Court.
Then all Hell breaks out.
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Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
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Now, on fingerprinting. The reason it's not as "reliable" as many say is not because someone may have the same fingerprint as you. You see, fingerprints are currently being stored in a database (at least, in the US) that is called the AFIS (automated fingerprint identifications system). What this does is scan the fingerprints it has on file and provide matches to the suspect fingerprint. So the computer (almost) never gives one definite match. The final match has to be made by the human eye. That is why there can be errors. Sure, these people are trained, but we're human; we make mistakes.
Another important issue is that identical twins do not have the exact same fingerprints. They have similar, but not exact fingerprints. However, they have pretty much the same DNA. However, I think there is a way to differentiate the DNA, but from what I've heard, when scientists reach this problem, they usually turn to fingerprints.
So overall, fingerprinting isn't that obsolete. It's still used frequently (I mean, we have a database for them!), but DNA is more reliable and easier to find. Criminals have learned to wear gloves, but not necessarily to put their hair in a net (you can get DNA from the bulb of your hair; also, even if the hair was cut, you can get mtDNA).
DNA is also harder to get, like Trench Kamen said, especially from blood. Like he said, you kinda have to hope you have enough of a sample with the white blood cells to get the DNA. While it is possible to get DNA from minute amounts of samples, it is rather tricky.
Another interesting thing I wanted to comment on is the fact that, yes, people are usually more open to believe something if the word "science" is attached to it. This is literally called the "CSI Effect", mainly because it is shows like "CSI" that contribute to this mass belief of the absolute truthfulness of science. Actually, even scientists who testify in court will say along the lines of that there is a very high percent chance that the fingerprint matches the perpetrator. Well, everyone has different fingerprints, but there has to be some room for doubt, especially if the opposite side has a scientist who disagrees! (and also the fact like I said above about fingerprints).
Anyway, hope this helped somehow. Again, please don't bash me; I'm only reiterating what I've read
By the way, Trench Kamen, are you a forensic investigator/specialist, or are you just very knowledgeable about the subject?
Edit: Ah, Tails! I was curious; is it true that scientists testifying will usually say that they are "mostly positive" about the DNA/fingerprinting/whatever match? Again, I got that info from my book, but I've never seen a real trial...
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Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
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But even DNA tests aren't always accurate! There are cases when the criminals plant fake DNA evidence in the crime scene.
Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
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peach_zelda wrote:
as for DNA tests...they're starting to find that fingerprints aren't exactly the most accurate way to pinpoint a criminal. for example, let's say 's fingerprints are on a piece of evidence. could get convicted of that crime because she and iris share the same fingerprints (being twins and all).
's fingerprints are on a piece of evidence. could get convicted of that crime because she and iris share the same fingerprints (being twins and all). Sorry 'bout this, but...
Identical twins do NOT have the same fingerprints, no one does.
It has been scientifically (
) proven, that NO FINGERPRINTS ARE THE SAME!TAEK DAT!
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Re: fingerprinting is so obsolete. what now ema?
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FdrlPrsctrTails wrote:
Trench Kamen wrote:
And chimerism is fascinating.
Agreed, except when it happens in Court.
Then all Hell breaks out.
It's time for a little chaos.
Caelestis wrote:
By the way, Trench Kamen, are you a forensic investigator/specialist, or are you just very knowledgeable about the subject?
I'm a research scientist. Well, an apprentice research scientist. An undergrad. I want to go for the PhD. I do cancer research, and part of that entails a lot of genetic analysis on my part. I've isolated and run gels on A LOT of DNA.
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Phoenix/Edgeworth (NaruMitsu) is gay bar love.
P/E Fanfic: Piano Man @Court Records; updated 01.29.09
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