Re: Who is this lady? Why, it's Kay!
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Spoiler: And I actually see how it would make sense.
I like Kay, actually. Not my ultimate most favorite character in the series EVAR, but...I like her and I wish she'd reappear in GS5. Even just for a while.
About Kay...
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Last edited by Nearavex on Sat Jun 28, 2014 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Official Nintendo Magazine interview with Shu Takumi
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Nearavex wrote:
he'd normally have absolutely no reason to care about".
Why do people refuse to believe/accept that Edgeworth could simply enjoy the company of Kay? I hear this complaint all the time and it's never made sense to me
Anyway, interesting interview. I didn't know Sugimori voiced Von Karma
Re: Official Nintendo Magazine interview with Shu Takumi
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All his relationship with Kay says to me is that he's be easier to buy a perky facade than a cute and innocent one. Because, he trusts completely a girl he's known for a day in Turnabout Ablaze. And lets someone who's practically a stranger walk around the crime scenes. The most convinient setup for a crime one could have, really.
And don't tell me her being involved in one of his cases as a child changes anything. You know, people innocent as children mught grow up to be criminals too, you know?
Re: Official Nintendo Magazine interview with Shu Takumi
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Nearavex wrote:
Because, as a prosecutor, he knows how to judge and doubt people, when necessary. That's part of why he was able to ignore Dahlia's, April's or Cammy's charms or Lauren's and Rhoda' affections.
Now, now. When you put Edgeworth as the subject of romance, things either get really awkward or pretty funny. Edgeworth wouldn't understand a woman's affection even if she outright told him that she loved him. He'd most likely decline the offer for a date...
unless it's a date in court, hmm yes. Those dates usually fall into a different kind of romance, though...
Quote:
All his relationship with Kay says to me is that he's be easier to buy a perky facade than a cute and innocent one. Because, he trusts completely a girl he's known for a day in Turnabout Ablaze. And lets someone who's practically a stranger walk around the crime scenes. The most convinient setup for a crime one could have, really.
And don't tell me her being involved in one of his cases as a child changes anything. You know, people innocent as children mught grow up to be criminals too, you know?
And don't tell me her being involved in one of his cases as a child changes anything. You know, people innocent as children mught grow up to be criminals too, you know?
At the very least, the AAI team acknowledged these points in Pros' Path. Kay literally shows up from nowhere in several of these cases and sticks around only because Edgeworth and Gumshoe can't shoo her away. The circumstances around the 4th and 5th cases are a different story, though.
Otherwise, why not just ask Uncle Ray to look after her? I'm sure he'd have no problems with that arrangement. (She might have one, but all the better for Edgey to rid of two annoyances with one finger point.) Either him or Franziska.
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Re: Official Nintendo Magazine interview with Shu Takumi
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Re: Official Nintendo Magazine interview with Shu Takumi
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Nearavex wrote:
Because, as a prosecutor, he knows how to judge and doubt people, when necessary. That's part of why he was able to ignore Dahlia's, April's or Cammy's charms or Lauren's and Rhoda' affections.
All his relationship with Kay says to me is that he's be easier to buy a perky facade than a cute and innocent one. Because, he trusts completely a girl he's known for a day in Turnabout Ablaze. And lets someone who's practically a stranger walk around the crime scenes. The most convinient setup for a crime one could have, really.
And don't tell me her being involved in one of his cases as a child changes anything. You know, people innocent as children mught grow up to be criminals too, you know?
All his relationship with Kay says to me is that he's be easier to buy a perky facade than a cute and innocent one. Because, he trusts completely a girl he's known for a day in Turnabout Ablaze. And lets someone who's practically a stranger walk around the crime scenes. The most convinient setup for a crime one could have, really.
And don't tell me her being involved in one of his cases as a child changes anything. You know, people innocent as children mught grow up to be criminals too, you know?
It's the same reason he never suspects Gumshoe, Larry, or Nick as murderers; he knows it would be ridiculous to assume so. And he still deduces that she can't be the culprit in Turnabout Ablaze. He doubts that a 17 year old girl could smuggle a knife over the two countries. It's not because he "completely trusts her"
Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
At the very least, the AAI team acknowledged these points in Pros' Path. Kay literally shows up from nowhere in several of these cases and sticks around only because Edgeworth and Gumshoe can't shoo her away. The circumstances around the 4th and 5th cases are a different story, though.
Otherwise, why not just ask Uncle Ray to look after her? I'm sure he'd have no problems with that arrangement. (She might have one, but all the better for Edgey to rid of two annoyances with one finger point.) Either him or Franziska.
Otherwise, why not just ask Uncle Ray to look after her? I'm sure he'd have no problems with that arrangement. (She might have one, but all the better for Edgey to rid of two annoyances with one finger point.) Either him or Franziska.
Spoiler: GK2
But the fact is that Edgeworth doesn't shoo Kay away for the same reason he doesn't shoo Gumshoe away. He recognizes that Kay is helpful (she literally helps out more than any other assistant in the series. There are cases where Maya/Trucy contribute very little to nothing) and he likes her more than he's willing to admit. I don't know why it's so hard to believe that Edgeworth and Kay can be friends the same way he's friends with Gumshoe or anybody else, but there you have it
Re: Official Nintendo Magazine interview with Shu Takumi
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She's this amazing Great Thief girl, and because she's so useful it hurts even more - screw the police detective, we have this incredibly useful 17-year-old girl with super-gadgets here. At least in Athena's case, the technology made sense, being inherited from a Space Center scientist...
Wait, that girl we met just a day/week ago is in some kind of danger? Apprehended by an Interpol agent in charges of murder? We must save her!
Re: Official Nintendo Magazine interview with Shu Takumi
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Nearavex wrote:
Well, you know, Athena is also criticized for being to skilled in several areas and too popular among other. But if Athena is a Sue, then I really don't know how to describe Kay. Queen of Sue-ness?
She's this amazing Great Thief girl, and because she's so useful it hurts even more - screw the police detective, we have this incredibly useful 17-year-old girl with super-gadgets here. At least in Athena's case, the technology made sense, being inherited from a Space Center scientist...
Wait, that girl we met just a day/week ago is in some kind of danger? Apprehended by an Interpol agent in charges of murder? We must save her!
She's this amazing Great Thief girl, and because she's so useful it hurts even more - screw the police detective, we have this incredibly useful 17-year-old girl with super-gadgets here. At least in Athena's case, the technology made sense, being inherited from a Space Center scientist...
Wait, that girl we met just a day/week ago is in some kind of danger? Apprehended by an Interpol agent in charges of murder? We must save her!
Athena made Widget and the Mood Matrix. She didn't inherit it. Kay's technology does make sense. It was made by Byrne. She inherited it. This is directly stated in the game. And how is she the "amazing Great Thief girl?" She's never stolen anything. The only reason she's more useful than Maya and Trucy is because she's more on-topic and serious than them most of the time (she uses the "serious" animation more than either of the two girls). What?!?!?!?! A girl wants to be serious and on topic while solving a murder! She must be a Mary Sue! Edgeworth wants to save a girl from getting her brains blown out by a known killer? She must be a Sue!
C'mon now...You can't just throw Mary Sue around if you don't like a character. I know Kay isn't a popular character, but if you don't like her, just say so. Don't make up untrue reasons for it
Re: Official Nintendo Magazine interview with Shu Takumi
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Also, good luck on engineering a pocket device that turns everything around you green and creates giant holograms while stashed in your pocket, without being an engineer or scientist, but a criminal prosecutor. Truly a valid explanation.
By the way, earlier I was talking about the arrest, not the hostage-taking. Still, either way, Edgeworth cares way too much about this particular girl, rather than just the fact that the killer took a hostage in the first place...
And, how does not stealing anything make her any less "amazing Great Thief girl"? She's always there, like she likes to put it, "to the rescue", portrayed as more useful than entire police department. She's still allowed to do whatever she pleases on the crime scenes, while everyone treats her like a long-term friend knowing her merely for a day. I know I'm repeating myself, but right now it's still just as valid complaint...
Really. There's no way that you could explain that for her not to seem like one of the worst characters, at least when we're talking about the assistants.
Re: Official Nintendo Magazine interview with Shu Takumi
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And why wouldn't Edgeworth save Kay when she was arrested? He saved Iris, who he didn't know. He saved Rhoda, who he didn't know. He also saved Lauren, who he didn't know. Edgeworth goes after the truth and it was clear that Kay being arrested because she found the body was a weak reason. He wasn't going to let her get hauled off to jail
When is Kay portrayed as more useful than the entire police department? Off the top of my head, Gumshoe alone has had more hero moments than Kay
Again, just because you don't let her doesn't mean she's one of the worst characters
Re: Official Nintendo Magazine interview with Shu Takumi
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How in the world Athena not having it in the flashbacks mean anything? It just means it wasn't given to her until after Metis's death. Kind of like a certain ring in GK2, you know?
Also, I believe that if Athena had engineering skills, it would really be referred to in the game... but (much like Byrne, ironically) she's no programmer, no engineer.
I mean, come on, just imagine it like Edgeworth's Logic.
"Widget - highly advanced device on Athena's neck, capable of reading emotions",
"Metis Cykes - Athena's mother, psychologist and scientis; was involved in Space Center's project of manufacturing machines that can understand human emotions"
I mean, if you can't see that much, how in the world did you actually clear AAI...?
Huuh..? Isn't Kay's "big hero moment" literally every single Re-creation...? You know, once she pulls out this magical holographic device that somehow makes everything green and look like you're in some kinda virtual reality.
Re: Official Nintendo Magazine interview with Shu Takumi
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Spoiler: GK2
And your logic doesn't make sense. I own a car. Does that mean I inherited it from Henry Ford? And it doesn't even matter because it's mentioned in-game that Athena made the Mood Matrix (no concrete answer on Widget from what I remember). So much for that logic
And I have no clue why you're still beating a dead horse with Little Thief. Literally anybody who turns on Little Thief can do what Kay does. If Maya used Little Thief by borrowing it from Kay, would she become a Sue? The logic makes no sense. Plus, the only time where Edgeworth needed Little Thief was I-3. Every other time was for the sake of convenience (and gameplay)
I don't like Maya, but I've never tried to argue she's a Mary Sue. If you don't like Kay, just say so. Don't use strawman arguments. That's all I'm saying
Re: Official Nintendo Magazine interview with Shu Takumi
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Spoiler: GK2
I was talking about post-game. He's free by then, right?
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Re: Official Nintendo Magazine interview with Shu Takumi
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JesusMonroe wrote:
And your logic doesn't make sense. I own a car. Does that mean I inherited it from Henry Ford? And it doesn't even matter because it's mentioned in-game that Athena made the Mood Matrix (no concrete answer on Widget from what I remember). So much for that logic
Um... Screens or didn't happen.
Also, Widget = car comparison is completely invalid, unless you can buy Widgets in every electric store novadays. You also compare it as if Henry Ford was your father, and you made your own car, which in short isn't what you wanted to say, but is what you're saying about Athena. Uh... congratulations? You're terrible at making comparisons Also, really, how did you nanage to clear AAI? I believe it's mentioned as welll that the very point of Ponco and Clonco was so that they could sense emotions of astronauts to efficiently aid them during missions. Are you saying Athena copied that technology completely without being in contact with it for seven years?
I won't even respond to the GK2 argument, my head hurts just by looking at it. I'll just say that my problem with Little Thief isn't anything about "inheriting" it, but more about how it works (magically changes whole surroundings while stashed in the pocket) and how Kay shows off about it, which, like I said, portrays her as a bit too indispenesable. Even if anyone else can use it, she is the only one who does use it. My problem is that she seems to be too useful for what I want to remind you is police investigation. If it wasn't her using the device, then it still hurts me that such a brilliant prosecutor can't solve a crime without a 17-year-old girl's gadget.
I literally don't know what to tell you. I don't like the term "Sue" myself and only used it once referring to the people who had problems with Athena, but I still think I provided enough necessary arguments. Yet you respond with something that I don't really think even denies those arguments... So, am I doomed to repeat myself without my point being acknowledged or even sufficiently denied, or what?
The only thing you somehow disproved was Edgeworth saving Kay, about which I still think the game tries to make us (and actually makes Edgeworth) care way too much than we really should.
I honestly would have preferred it, had she stayed a "child witness in that past case" and a person involved in these 2 other cases rather than the game's assistant and mascot.
Also, Rubia, I already reported the first post of this discussion to mods, asking to move it to a seperate thread in Prosecutor's Lobby section.
Re: Official Nintendo Magazine interview with Shu Takumi
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Re: Official Nintendo Magazine interview with Shu Takumi
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Sierra Mikain wrote:
That's weird... I could have sworn it was stated in case 5 that Widget was one of the things Metis left for Athena, along with the earring... I'd have to replay that part, though.
She did say that, though I never claimed Athena made Widget (And Nearavex/Rubia, I'll respond once I'm off my phone and the discussion is moved)
Re: Official Nintendo Magazine interview with Shu Takumi
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JesusMonroe wrote:
She did say that, though I never claimed Athena made Widget.
JesusMonroe wrote:
Athena made Widget and the Mood Matrix. She didn't inherit it.
You did claim Athena made Widget.
Re: Who is this lady? Why, it's Kay!
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Nearavex wrote:
Also, Widget = car comparison is completely invalid, unless you can buy Widgets in every electric store novadays. You also compare it as if Henry Ford was your father, and you made your own car, which in short isn't what you wanted to say, but is what you're saying about Athena. Uh... congratulations? You're terrible at making comparisons Also, really, how did you nanage to clear AAI? I believe it's mentioned as welll that the very point of Ponco and Clonco was so that they could sense emotions of astronauts to efficiently aid them during missions. Are you saying Athena copied that technology completely without being in contact with it for seven years?
I won't even respond to the GK2 argument, my head hurts just by looking at it. I'll just say that my problem with Little Thief isn't anything about "inheriting" it, but more about how it works (magically changes whole surroundings while stashed in the pocket) and how Kay shows off about it, which, like I said, portrays her as a bit too indispenesable. Even if anyone else can use it, she is the only one who does use it. My problem is that she seems to be too useful for what I want to remind you is police investigation. If it wasn't her using the device, then it still hurts me that such a brilliant prosecutor can't solve a crime without a 17-year-old girl's gadget.
I literally don't know what to tell you. I don't like the term "Sue" myself and only used it once referring to the people who had problems with Athena, but I still think I provided enough necessary arguments. Yet you respond with something that I don't really think even denies those arguments... So, am I doomed to repeat myself without my point being acknowledged or even sufficiently denied, or what?
The only thing you somehow disproved was Edgeworth saving Kay, about which I still think the game tries to make us (and actually makes Edgeworth) care way too much than we really should.
I honestly would have preferred it, had she stayed a "child witness in that past case" and a person involved in these 2 other cases rather than the game's assistant and mascot.
Also, Rubia, I already reported the first post of this discussion to mods, asking to move it to a seperate thread in Prosecutor's Lobby section.
I won't even respond to the GK2 argument, my head hurts just by looking at it. I'll just say that my problem with Little Thief isn't anything about "inheriting" it, but more about how it works (magically changes whole surroundings while stashed in the pocket) and how Kay shows off about it, which, like I said, portrays her as a bit too indispenesable. Even if anyone else can use it, she is the only one who does use it. My problem is that she seems to be too useful for what I want to remind you is police investigation. If it wasn't her using the device, then it still hurts me that such a brilliant prosecutor can't solve a crime without a 17-year-old girl's gadget.
I literally don't know what to tell you. I don't like the term "Sue" myself and only used it once referring to the people who had problems with Athena, but I still think I provided enough necessary arguments. Yet you respond with something that I don't really think even denies those arguments... So, am I doomed to repeat myself without my point being acknowledged or even sufficiently denied, or what?
The only thing you somehow disproved was Edgeworth saving Kay, about which I still think the game tries to make us (and actually makes Edgeworth) care way too much than we really should.
I honestly would have preferred it, had she stayed a "child witness in that past case" and a person involved in these 2 other cases rather than the game's assistant and mascot.
Also, Rubia, I already reported the first post of this discussion to mods, asking to move it to a seperate thread in Prosecutor's Lobby section.
Occam's Razor. Athena herself didn't understand how to harness her ability to hear people's emotions until she was older. Her mother just slapped headphones on her. Why would her mother make the Mood Matrix if she didn't even understand Athena well enough at that point? You're making things too complicated
Edgeworth can solve the crime without her gadget. If I wanted to travel to Canada, I could drive there, but I won't say no to a friend's offer of a private jet. Little Thief just makes things faster and more efficient. The only time Edgeworth needed it was for the Haunted House. And why not respond to the GK2 argument? It's literally the exact same one you used with a different character
I don't like the Sue term myself, either. If you use it, you're only encouraging it to be used more on the site. And what necessary arguments? Everything's been debunked. Your original argument was that Edgeworth had no reason to care about Kay, which you admitted I disproved. You say Kay is a Sue because of Little Thief, but she didn't make it, and Little Thief has only saved the day ONE TIME (compared to the Mood Matrix. Every single case in DD could not have been won without Athena's aid). Plus, Kay has messed up tons of times as well
Nearavex wrote:
You did claim Athena made Widget.
But I later recanted it
JesusMonroe wrote:
And it doesn't even matter because it's mentioned in-game that Athena made the Mood Matrix (no concrete answer on Widget from what I remember)
Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
Spoiler: GK2
I was talking about post-game. He's free by then, right?
Spoiler: GK2
Re: Who is this lady? Why, it's Kay!
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Also, since Widget was canonically made by Metis, so most likely was Mood Matrix. I don't think it's also specifically mentioned that it was made for Athena, but even if it was, it could have been intended for her once she got older - hence, it was given to her once she did get older.
But, like I said. It could have not been intended for Athena in the first place. I mean, all that Widget does is reading the emotions of its wearer plus the emotions the wearer gets from others.
Huh... I did admit something, namely your point about his actions. But I did not admit anything about Edgeworth's emotions in regards to Kay. I still think Edgeworth cares unreasonably much for her. He did save Lauren and Rhoda, true, but it wasn't "I must save her!", like it's most often in Kay's case. No, it was "My investigation determined you're innocent. I guess you're free to go". Just that.
The only reason Edgeworth develops some stronger relationship with Kay after the case she appeared in was solved was only because the developers needed him to. She gets special treatment only because the game needed an assistant girl. There's no real reason in-universe for Edgeworth to become so attached to her, really. In my opinion, Kay is the only assistant character whose relationship with a protagonist is this forced.
Re: Who is this lady? Why, it's Kay!
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The following are quotes Edgeworth makes in regards to Rhoda and Lauren
"...they conveniently stashed the cell phone in Ms. Teneiro's locker at the same time!" (At this point, Edgeworth has no proof the killer stole the keycard or stashed the phone in the locker. Franzy even objects to this and mentions that he has no proof. Edgeworth even concedes and says that it's baseless conjecture, meaning that he only said this because he actually trusts Rhoda)
[After being thanked]"It was nothing. In fact, I should be the one thanking you for your cooperation"
"N-No...I mean, I would never turn down a lady's generous offer" (He's actually being polite instead of bluntly honest this time, showing that he cares about Rhoda enough to not make her feel like crap)
[After hearing Lauren straight-up confess to murder]"Agent Lang, it's much too early to declare this case closed!"
[After hearing Lauren confess to murder again] "I doubt what she says is true..." (and the contradiction in this one is revealed through pressing, so Edgeworth couldn't have heard it in her initial testimony)
[I also want to mention Edgeworth defies interpol and one of his best friends (and the man who made him a Prosecutor) in order to save Lauren]
[Edgeworth also comforts Lauren at the end when the case is solved when he didn't have any obligation to do so]
Do you want me to continue with Maggey, I-4 Gumshoe, and every single GK2 defendant?
What do you mean there's no reason for Edgeworth to be attached to Kay? How did Edgeworth develop a relationship with Gumshoe? By investigating with him, case after case. It's the same thing with Kay. Who wouldn't want a helpful assistant to investigate with? (It also doesn't hurt that Kay saved his life in AAI-4)
Nearavex wrote:
In my opinion, Kay is the only assistant character whose relationship with a protagonist is this forced.
Honestly tell me that this conversation (which is clearly supposed to emulate a family) at the end of 5-2 doesn't sound forced. Tell me that this conversation was earned
http://youtu.be/FWgydUVH4zk?t=37m18s
Re: Who is this lady? Why, it's Kay!
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Steve Jobs made the iPhone, but that doesn't mean he made all the apps for it. And widget doesn't read the emotions. Athena reads them and inputs the data into the Mood Matrix. It was made for someone who could read emotions. Athena didn't understand this ability until she was older, therefore she made it for herself.
Another bad comparison from you. Widget is capable of picking up emotions, at least from its wearer, as evidenced by it changing accordingly to Athena's mood, even when she doesn't speak anything. Were it not, it'd be like claiming one is capable of creating a fully-working voice-recording program for a device without microphone. It's simply not possible.
More than that, you force me to repeat myself again: machines capable of detecting, interpreting and understanding emotions were a part of the Ponco project. Are you saying Athena created a program that served this exact purpose for personal use, without known programming skills and seven years without any contact with the original program? I doubt that.
Just because you say it happened, it still seems way more reasonable to assume that the scientist and the creator of the device also created what seems to be not a program, but operating system. I mean, who do you think is more likely to create Mood Matrix - someone confirmed to be able to create emotion-feeling AI or the person with no confirmed programming skills? Really, thats's logic
You also don't seem to fully remember how Athena's power works. Without the Mood Matrix, she can't hear the "hidden emotions" that Mood Matrix is able to display. She can only hear "noise" and without the program, she can't do a whole lot about it. While she most likely does input testimonies and images into the program, just like Kay, she can't input information that isn't known to her. Such is the case with the hidden emotions.
There are only two explanations. Widget either picks up the emotions from her, who, like Apollo, subcounciously senses the exact emotions, or, it also senses the emotions from the witnesses.
Neither "detects emotions its wearer senses from other people", nor "detects people's emotions" sound all that Athena-specific, to be honest. The first can be applied to anyone, it's human quality called empathy. It just happens that Athena is better at it than other people.
Re: Who is this lady? Why, it's Kay!
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
I was talking about post-game. He's free by then, right? So is Franzy.
Spoiler: GK2
Spoiler:
JesusMonroe wrote:
The following are quotes Edgeworth makes in regards to Rhoda and Lauren
"...they conveniently stashed the cell phone in Ms. Teneiro's locker at the same time!" (At this point, Edgeworth has no proof the killer stole the keycard or stashed the phone in the locker. Franzy even objects to this and mentions that he has no proof. Edgeworth even concedes and says that it's baseless conjecture, meaning that he only said this because he actually trusts Rhoda)
[After being thanked]"It was nothing. In fact, I should be the one thanking you for your cooperation"
"N-No...I mean, I would never turn down a lady's generous offer" (He's actually being polite instead of bluntly honest this time, showing that he cares about Rhoda enough to not make her feel like crap)
[After hearing Lauren straight-up confess to murder]"Agent Lang, it's much too early to declare this case closed!"
[After hearing Lauren confess to murder again] "I doubt what she says is true..." (and the contradiction in this one is revealed through pressing, so Edgeworth couldn't have heard it in her initial testimony)
[I also want to mention Edgeworth defies interpol and one of his best friends (and the man who made him a Prosecutor) in order to save Lauren]
[Edgeworth also comforts Lauren at the end when the case is solved when he didn't have any obligation to do so]
Do you want me to continue with Maggey, I-4 Gumshoe, and every single GK2 defendant?
"...they conveniently stashed the cell phone in Ms. Teneiro's locker at the same time!" (At this point, Edgeworth has no proof the killer stole the keycard or stashed the phone in the locker. Franzy even objects to this and mentions that he has no proof. Edgeworth even concedes and says that it's baseless conjecture, meaning that he only said this because he actually trusts Rhoda)
[After being thanked]"It was nothing. In fact, I should be the one thanking you for your cooperation"
"N-No...I mean, I would never turn down a lady's generous offer" (He's actually being polite instead of bluntly honest this time, showing that he cares about Rhoda enough to not make her feel like crap)
[After hearing Lauren straight-up confess to murder]"Agent Lang, it's much too early to declare this case closed!"
[After hearing Lauren confess to murder again] "I doubt what she says is true..." (and the contradiction in this one is revealed through pressing, so Edgeworth couldn't have heard it in her initial testimony)
[I also want to mention Edgeworth defies interpol and one of his best friends (and the man who made him a Prosecutor) in order to save Lauren]
[Edgeworth also comforts Lauren at the end when the case is solved when he didn't have any obligation to do so]
Do you want me to continue with Maggey, I-4 Gumshoe, and every single GK2 defendant?
AAI gave Edgeworth more emotions than he was previously shown to have. In some ways, it was an improvement. In other ways, it made him sound more like Nick rather than himself. No, scratch that, they made him sound more like Layton, which I am unsure if it's a good or bad thing. Inclined to say 'good', though.
This one's another for the headcanon thread: Edgeworth met Layton during his trips overseas between JFA and T&T.
Spoiler: PLvsAA Special Ep.
Quote:
Nearavex wrote:
In my opinion, Kay is the only assistant character whose relationship with a protagonist is this forced.
Honestly tell me that this conversation (which is clearly supposed to emulate a family) at the end of 5-2 doesn't sound forced. Tell me that this conversation was earned
http://youtu.be/FWgydUVH4zk?t=37m18s
This is nothing. Phoenix forcing Apollo onto random jobs with Trucy is the perfect example of "being forced".
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Re: Who is this lady? Why, it's Kay!
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Nearavex wrote:
-snip-
Hypothetically, let's say you're right. That means that Mood Matrix is just as intuitive as Little Thief. The Mood Matrix has been used more times than Little Thief and without the Mood Matrix, all the cases would've ended in failure (unlike Little Thief). So, the Mood Matrix does a better job at finding the truth, meaning Athena is more capable than the police department? I don't see what you're trying to say with this point
And for the record, I don't think Athena is a Mary Sue. The term has lost all meaning due to overuse. It's supposed to only refer to the worst of the worst with female characters. But if we are arguing about who's more Sue-ish, it's Athena. Without question
Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Quote:
AAI gave Edgeworth more emotions than he was previously shown to have. In some ways, it was an improvement. In other ways, it made him sound more like Nick rather than himself. No, scratch that, they made him sound more like Layton, which I am unsure if it's a good or bad thing. Inclined to say 'good', though.
This one's another for the headcanon thread: Edgeworth met Layton during his trips overseas between JFA and T&T.
This one's another for the headcanon thread: Edgeworth met Layton during his trips overseas between JFA and T&T.
Spoiler: PLvsAA Special Ep.
Layton is like Edgeworth if you emphasized Edgeworth's gentleman qualities to the nth degree. Layton certainly wouldn't call Rhoda's suitcases hideous
It makes more sense for Edgeworth to be like Nick in GK2 since that's one of the themes in the game. In GK, yes, they did change his personality a little. I guess the writers figured the cold Edgeworth who had no issue with Adrian killing herself would be a troublesome protagonist. I still think the writers did a good job of distinguishing Edgeworth from the other two (and now three) playable characters (though I wish he was more like his 3-5 persona). But if the issue you and Nearavex have is Edgeworth trusting Kay, that's more a problem with the characterization of Edgeworth than it is with the character of Kay
Quote:
This is nothing. Phoenix forcing Apollo onto random jobs with Trucy is the perfect example of "being forced".
Really? I thought it was classic troll Hobonix.
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JesusMonroe wrote:
And for the record, I don't think Athena is a Mary Sue. The term has lost all meaning due to overuse. It's supposed to only refer to the worst of the worst with female characters. But if we are arguing about who's more Sue-ish, it's Athena. Without question
I honestly don't think so. What Athena saves is defense's case. They manage to pull it off, just like they always do. It's same with Phoenix and Apollo, really.
She also does so as either defense team leader or defense assistant as well as a diplomed psychologist. Her abilities being in use for defense's argument is natural.
But Kay on the other hand doesn't save defense's case, but freakin' police investigation! It's almost as if every cop that's there is like "Back off gentlemen, this 17 year old girl is doing her trick." And who is she? Just a schoolgirl who claims to be a Great Thief. My, surely she must be obviously classified to perform an investigation.
Re: Who is this lady? Why, it's Kay!
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Nearavex wrote:
JesusMonroe wrote:
And for the record, I don't think Athena is a Mary Sue. The term has lost all meaning due to overuse. It's supposed to only refer to the worst of the worst with female characters. But if we are arguing about who's more Sue-ish, it's Athena. Without question
I honestly don't think so. What Athena saves is defense's case. They manage to pull it off, just like they always do. It's same with Phoenix and Apollo, really.
She also does so as either defense team leader or defense assistant as well as a diplomed psychologist. Her abilities being in use for defense's argument is natural.
But Kay on the other hand doesn't save defense's case, but freakin' police investigation! It's almost as if every cop that's there is like "Back off gentlemen, this 17 year old girl is doing her trick." And who is she? Just a schoolgirl who claims to be a Great Thief. My, surely she must be obviously classified to perform an investigation.
I imagine the future Chief Prosecutor vouching for her skills gives her some degree of clout.
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If you mean to say that it's because the prosecutor in charge allows this, I don't see how it changes the fact that it's exaxtly what she does. Edgeworth's permission or not, it's just as horrible.
Not to mention the fact he allows this is also a problem.
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Nearavex wrote:
I don't know what "clout" means, sorry.
Sorry my bad, must be a colloquialism.
It means power essentially, particularly persuasive power, if someone has clout it means they have authority behind their actions.
With Edgeworth's backing, Kay has clout, they might not trust her but they trust Edgeworth and don't dare speak against him.
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Last edited by Nearavex on Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Who is this lady? Why, it's Kay!
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Nearavex wrote:
Like I said in the edited post, that still doesn't really change the essence of my argument... The problem is what she does on these crime scenes with little experience and education, as an ordinary schoolgirl.
The fact Edgeworth allows it doesn't change what she does and, like I said again, it makes it even worse.
The fact Edgeworth allows it doesn't change what she does and, like I said again, it makes it even worse.
You wouldn't trust someone with years of experience in successful investigations who is your professional superior? By GK2 she's had some substantial experience of crime scenes, her gadget actually has a definitive reason to exist. She isn't perfect in her examination but since she owns Little Thief she's of use to Edgeworth.
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Re: Who is this lady? Why, it's Kay!
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Layton is like Edgeworth if you emphasized Edgeworth's gentleman qualities to the nth degree. Layton certainly wouldn't call Rhoda's suitcases hideous
It makes more sense for Edgeworth to be like Nick in GK2 since that's one of the themes in the game. In GK, yes, they did change his personality a little. I guess the writers figured the cold Edgeworth who had no issue with Adrian killing herself would be a troublesome protagonist. I still think the writers did a good job of distinguishing Edgeworth from the other two (and now three) playable characters (though I wish he was more like his 3-5 persona). But if the issue you and Nearavex have is Edgeworth trusting Kay, that's more a problem with the characterization of Edgeworth than it is with the character of Kay
It makes more sense for Edgeworth to be like Nick in GK2 since that's one of the themes in the game. In GK, yes, they did change his personality a little. I guess the writers figured the cold Edgeworth who had no issue with Adrian killing herself would be a troublesome protagonist. I still think the writers did a good job of distinguishing Edgeworth from the other two (and now three) playable characters (though I wish he was more like his 3-5 persona). But if the issue you and Nearavex have is Edgeworth trusting Kay, that's more a problem with the characterization of Edgeworth than it is with the character of Kay
This is a lot more than just his characterization. It's simply bad writing. There is no reason for Edgeworth to "be like Nick" unless he finds himself thrust into a position where he "must" act like Nick (3-5) or if he gets inspired to do so when there is no other course of action left to him (also 3-5). If he's suddenly acting like Nick all the time, or if he somehow constantly keeps finding himself in unrecognizable situations and panics until he sees Phoenix's methods as the only solution, then he stops being Edgeworth. And if the writers feel the need to change Edgeworth (note: change, not develop, there is a difference) in order to make the presence of other characters believable, then IMO it's bad writing.
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Re: Who is this lady? Why, it's Kay!
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The point, she hasn't worked for all that at all. She just appeared out of nowhere with her magical device and suddenly got special treatment. Edgeworth didn't let Phoenix, (full-fledged lawyer who Edgeworth trusts) know this much of the investigation, whenever they are involved in the same case and yet then, he just lets this girl he met day before do whatever she wants.
I'm repeating myself, because it still pisses me off exactly as much.
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Spoiler: GK2
None of the situations are like you said. And your comparison with Phoenix makes no sense because Kay is on Edgeworth's side. Even if Edgeworth trusts Phoenix, he's still the opposition.
Nearavex wrote:
JesusMonroe wrote:
And for the record, I don't think Athena is a Mary Sue. The term has lost all meaning due to overuse. It's supposed to only refer to the worst of the worst with female characters. But if we are arguing about who's more Sue-ish, it's Athena. Without question
I honestly don't think so. What Athena saves is defense's case. They manage to pull it off, just like they always do. It's same with Phoenix and Apollo, really.
She also does so as either defense team leader or defense assistant as well as a diplomed psychologist. Her abilities being in use for defense's argument is natural.
But Kay on the other hand doesn't save defense's case, but freakin' police investigation! It's almost as if every cop that's there is like "Back off gentlemen, this 17 year old girl is doing her trick." And who is she? Just a schoolgirl who claims to be a Great Thief. My, surely she must be obviously classified to perform an investigation.
Does it matter? In the end, Athena still finds the truth that the police officers were unable to find. As for the italicized section, if you thought Kay was a Sue just cause of Little Thief...just look at that. They're the same damn age, but at least Kay was raised by two people involved in law (and two members of the Yatagarasu)
Re: Who is this lady? Why, it's Kay!
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Quote:
Does it matter? In the end, Athena still finds the truth that the police officers were unable to find. As for the italicized section, if you thought Kay was a Sue just cause of Little Thief...just look at that. They're the same damn age, but at least Kay was raised by two people involved in law (and two members of the Yatagarasu)
By that logic she's got more justification to be an 18-year old prodigy Attorney than Athena herself
Then again that's not an especially hard task.Also Little Thief is much MUCH more believable than Athena's power, it also comes from an obvious source, that's clearly explained. it's simple technology recreating something in a non-physical way. It doesn't read minds or 'hearts' or anything like that it's essentially an elaborate projector.
It's cool but it's clearly more believable than Athena's power.
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Spoiler: GK2
Phoenix is opposition but Kay is even worse than that - she's an outsider, a civilian. Her very existence is an insult to his professionalism. This is my stance on the matter.
She was raised by two people involved in the law and then had no contact with it for full 8 years, whereas Athena received proper education as a lawyer and psychologist, which qualifies her to use Mood Matrix in the first place.
If that is "on the same page", then I really wish I lived in the Ace Attorney universe. Because that would mean you don't really need amy education at all and that you can just follow a prosecutor around and act all cheerful around him to het him to allow you assist in his investigation.
Pierre wrote:
Also Little Thief is much MUCH more believable than Athena's power, it also comes from an obvious source, that's clearly explained. it's simple technology recreating something in a non-physical way. It doesn't read minds or 'hearts' or anything like that it's essentially an elaborate projector.
It's cool but it's clearly more believable than Athena's power.
It's cool but it's clearly more believable than Athena's power.
Yup, painting whole surroundings green in the image of virtual reality during the middle of the day and creating holograms of whole areas while stashed in its owner's pocket is so much more realistic than a psychological emotion analysis.
...You need a friggin' reality check.
Re: Who is this lady? Why, it's Kay!
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Quote:
Yup, painting whole surroundings green in the image of virtual reality during the middle of the day and creating holograms of whole areas while stashed in its owner's pocket is so much more realistic than a psychological emotion analysis.
...You need a friggin' reality check.
...You need a friggin' reality check.
I don't think I need to remind you it's been shown how Widget can WIRELESSLY READ THE WEARER'S MIND. Not emotions, actual thought processes and context.
Also psychological emotion analysis?
Spoiler: Athena Spoilers
As I'm loathe to admit, there's no actual evidence Athena studied psychology, there's evidence to suggest her mother certainly never taught her any as Athena claims she never spent time with her.
So yeah...I'd say projecting bright green holograms IS much more realistic than mind-reading devices and soul-scanning powers.
As for Edgeworth, perhaps the problem lies in your interpretation of Edgeworth. He might be professional but he knows that civilians are valuable tools, he extracts evidence from them in most every case. Kay has proven herself useful to Edgeworth in the past, even if you want to make the argument that Edgeworth is so cold as to only be using Kay because of Little Thief it's still a reason for her to stick around assuming you don't want to look at the possibility of Edgeworth trusting or involving anyone outside the legal profession.
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Such would be the case with things like reading emotional input in a person's voice. I'm not really sure if people criticizing Athena's power pretend something like emotional input in voice doesn't exist or whatever.
These things can be quite often heard by ordinary humans. If you have never heard that someone you're talking to sounds sad, angry or happy, then I'm really worried about you. Athena just happens to be born with sensitive hearing, thus being able to hear it better than other people. It's not like she couldn't have heard it in Simon's voice that his confession was forced.
I'm not really sure what you mean about the mind-reading. All it ever did that could be interpreted that way was insulting the person Athena directed her anger at. Given the facts that it is also an AI, I dont see what is ut you have problem with. It reads emotions, not thoughts. If it did, Athena's job would be way too easy.
I don't know why you make wrong assumptions about Widget's capabilities, depite not liking these assumptions yourself and then criticize the character based on your assumptions but whatever strikes you fancy. People bringing up headcanons as arguments. I can't people are this butthurt over Athena while none of them really minds how stupidly Kay was forced as Edgeworth's Special Power☆Sidekick Girl.
Still don't see how any of this is less realistic than magical holigrams.
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Sierra Mikain wrote:
This is a lot more than just his characterization. It's simply bad writing. There is no reason for Edgeworth to "be like Nick" unless he finds himself thrust into a position where he "must" act like Nick (3-5) or if he gets inspired to do so when there is no other course of action left to him (also 3-5). If he's suddenly acting like Nick all the time, or if he somehow constantly keeps finding himself in unrecognizable situations and panics until he sees Phoenix's methods as the only solution, then he stops being Edgeworth. And if the writers feel the need to change Edgeworth (note: change, not develop, there is a difference) in order to make the presence of other characters believable, then IMO it's bad writing.
It makes more sense for his character to act like a defense attorney in GK2 but the only things that bothered me in the first game were subtle mannerisms and his choice in I-5. Other than that, I didn't notice anything significant and if there was something significant, it didn't bother me. Edgeworth acted like Nick in 3-5 because he had to defend Iris. He has to defend people in the GK games, too
Nearavex wrote:
Well, since Lang wouldn't let them access the crime scene, I could easily picture Edgeworth thanking Kay for cooperation and saying goodbye. Also, the police doesn't say anything like that, but isn't it still somehow exactly what happens?
Phoenix is opposition but Kay is even worse than that - she's an outsider, a civilian. Her very existence is an insult to his professionalism. This is my stance on the matter.
She was raised by two people involved in the law and then had no contact with it for full 8 years, whereas Athena received proper education as a lawyer and psychologist, which qualifies her to use Mood Matrix in the first place.
If that is "on the same page", then I really wish I lived in the Ace Attorney universe. Because that would mean you don't really need amy education at all and that you can just follow a prosecutor around and act all cheerful around him to het him to allow you assist in his investigation.
Yup, painting whole surroundings green in the image of virtual reality during the middle of the day and creating holograms of whole areas while stashed in its owner's pocket is so much more realistic than a psychological emotion analysis.
...You need a friggin' reality check.
Spoiler: GK2
Phoenix is opposition but Kay is even worse than that - she's an outsider, a civilian. Her very existence is an insult to his professionalism. This is my stance on the matter.
She was raised by two people involved in the law and then had no contact with it for full 8 years, whereas Athena received proper education as a lawyer and psychologist, which qualifies her to use Mood Matrix in the first place.
If that is "on the same page", then I really wish I lived in the Ace Attorney universe. Because that would mean you don't really need amy education at all and that you can just follow a prosecutor around and act all cheerful around him to het him to allow you assist in his investigation.
Pierre wrote:
Also Little Thief is much MUCH more believable than Athena's power, it also comes from an obvious source, that's clearly explained. it's simple technology recreating something in a non-physical way. It doesn't read minds or 'hearts' or anything like that it's essentially an elaborate projector.
It's cool but it's clearly more believable than Athena's power.
It's cool but it's clearly more believable than Athena's power.
Yup, painting whole surroundings green in the image of virtual reality during the middle of the day and creating holograms of whole areas while stashed in its owner's pocket is so much more realistic than a psychological emotion analysis.
...You need a friggin' reality check.
Spoiler: GK2
In fact, couldn't that be why Edgeworth sticks around with Kay? With both Byrne and Badd gone, she needs someone to look after her and be an influence to her
Also, who did you think I was talking about when I said two people involved with the law raised Kay? I was referring to Byrne and Badd, cause Badd picked up the torch when Byrne died. That's hardly no contact for 8 years
Again, your last statement is complete hyperbole. We're close to virtual reality right now in 2014. It's not a stretch to think Little Thief is a plausible device in the clearly more advanced AA world
Nearavex wrote:
Nah, I was calm. To be honest, I didn't want to argue about Athena, because way too often the obvious or even canon explanations are outright denied.
*cough*
Quote:
Such would be the case with things like reading emotional input in a person's voice. I'm not really sure if people criticizing Athena's power pretend something like emotional input in voice doesn't exist or whatever.
These things can be quite often heard by ordinary humans. If you have never heard that someone you're talking to sounds sad, angry or happy, then I'm really worried about you. Athena just happens to be born with sensitive hearing, thus being able to hear it better than other people. It's not like she couldn't have heard it in Simon's voice that his confession was forced.
I'm not really sure what you mean about the mind-reading. All it ever did that could be interpreted that way was insulting the person Athena directed her anger at. Given the facts that it is also an AI, I dont see what is ut you have problem with. It reads emotions, not thoughts. If it did, Athena's job would be way too easy.
I don't know why you make wrong assumptions about Widget's capabilities, depite not liking these assumptions yourself and then criticize the character based on your assumptions but whatever strikes you fancy. People bringing up headcanons as arguments. I can't people are this butthurt over Athena while none of them really minds how stupidly Kay was forced as Edgeworth's Special Power☆Sidekick Girl.
Still don't see how any of this is less realistic than magical holigrams.
These things can be quite often heard by ordinary humans. If you have never heard that someone you're talking to sounds sad, angry or happy, then I'm really worried about you. Athena just happens to be born with sensitive hearing, thus being able to hear it better than other people. It's not like she couldn't have heard it in Simon's voice that his confession was forced.
I'm not really sure what you mean about the mind-reading. All it ever did that could be interpreted that way was insulting the person Athena directed her anger at. Given the facts that it is also an AI, I dont see what is ut you have problem with. It reads emotions, not thoughts. If it did, Athena's job would be way too easy.
I don't know why you make wrong assumptions about Widget's capabilities, depite not liking these assumptions yourself and then criticize the character based on your assumptions but whatever strikes you fancy. People bringing up headcanons as arguments. I can't people are this butthurt over Athena while none of them really minds how stupidly Kay was forced as Edgeworth's Special Power☆Sidekick Girl.
Still don't see how any of this is less realistic than magical holigrams.
And once again your small statement is subjective. Honestly, it seems like your anger at people who don't like Athena is being directed towards Kay
Also, what makes a hologram magical? They're real, you know
Re: Who is this lady? Why, it's Kay!
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It's came up before, I thought we were over this.
Quote:
I don't know why you make wrong assumptions about Widget's capabilities, depite not liking these assumptions yourself and then criticize the character based on your assumptions but whatever strikes you fancy. People bringing up headcanons as arguments. I can't people are this butthurt over Athena while none of them really minds how stupidly Kay was forced as Edgeworth's Special Power☆Sidekick Girl.
You assume our arguments about widget are wrong assumptions without giving them due. Just step back a bit, even if you are calm you are coming across quite bitter at other people. There's nothing wrong with your opinion of Kay but there's also nothing wrong with other people's opinions of Athena. Don't lash out at other people by reducing them to simply "butthurt".
But anyway onto the post.
Quote:
Such would be the case with things like reading emotional input in a person's voice. I'm not really sure if people criticizing Athena's power pretend something like emotional input in voice doesn't exist or whatever.
We already talked about how Athena's power is far beyond the normal described by 'sensitive' hearing. For one thing if it was as simple as that why would her mother not look for support for it? It's clearly not an isolated phenomenon. Why would she be treated as specially, why would she described it as "Listening to the voices of the heart."
In less concrete evidence I think I recall an incident where one of the people subject to the mood matrix didn't talk and it was their lack of emotion at something that gave them away.
In any case your "sensitive hearing" is far away from the realm and scope of detecting emotions from people's voice, otherwise anyone would be be able to do it.
Quote:
I'm not really sure what you mean about the mind-reading. All it ever did that could be interpreted that way was insulting the person Athena directed her anger at. Given the facts that it is also an AI, I dont see what is ut you have problem with. It reads emotions, not thoughts. If it did, Athena's job would be way too easy.
Right ok we've gone over this, I'll run it again.
It doesn't just read emotions...it reads thoughts...her own admittedly but still it's a ridiculous technological marvel. Early in the game (like 5 minutes) Athena will blurt out "He sometimes blurts out what I'm thinking..." after Widget's first outburst. So we have the only person on Earth who has an understanding of how Widget works to testify to it's mind-reading skill. What else? It can determine context instead of emotion, emotion would be "*charmed sigh* (in love)" "Grrrrrr....(anger)" "Awww....(sad)" etc etc.
Widget calls Payne an "Arrogant Jerk" the important thing to note was that it sensed Athena's anger AND the object of that anger. If it could only sense emotion it would only conjure an anger response "grrr" but this is targetted aggression, Athena isn't just angry she's angry at person X because she thinks he's arrogant. A lot of things can elicit anger after all, but Widget is tuned into the target and cause of the anger that could only come from Athena's thought processes and not from emotional information alone.
TLDR: Widget can read Athena's mind. WIRELESSLY.
Now do you see why Little Thief with it's projector is more realistic than Widget?
If you want to take the Athena issue elsewhere I'll gladly throwdown in the her discussion thread again. However as far as my opinion and evidence goes I have to conclude that Kay is nowhere near as bad as Athena
Made by Chesu+Zombee
You thought you could be safe in your courts, with your laws and attorneys to protect you. In this world only I am law, my word is fact, my power is absolute.
Re: Who is this lady? Why, it's Kay!
Y'know
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Rank: Prosecutor
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 3:51 pm
Posts: 787
Nearavex wrote:
I can't people
Also, I can't grammar. (There was supposed to be "understand" there)
Your point doesn't really convince me... First of all, Widget is an AI, just like Ponco and Clonco, even if less advanced. Therefore, understanding context isn't necessarily mind-reading. It could have very well just saw that Payne was a jerk to Athena and that this made Athena angry. Enough to make a connection.
Blurting out what one is thinking might be very well a manner of speech... Given the fact it can blurt out how she feels that actually isn't that far off the mark. I honestly feel like we degraded into the "unnecessary feelings" level of discussion.
Last edited by Nearavex on Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:23 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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