Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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I never felt like I was actually being logical and figuring things out on my own. It just feels like a forced system. I mean, the game right at the end of most cases is just like, "Oh, and here's a bunch of logic that either repeats what Edgeworth's monologue has already told you, or is just super-obvious stuff."
Here's my two prime examples where I really thought the logic actually took away from the game, and just held your hand.
Spoiler: Case 4
Spoiler: Case 5
It's basically just playing connect the dots. With a stick as the picture.
Don't get me wrong, I loved the game otherwise, I think it's pretty great, but the logic system seemed only there to spell out really obvious things to you. Whoa, you mean I can use a ladder to climb things!?
Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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The mechanic itself is neat, but it was like playing a mix and match game >_>;
But on the flipside:
Spoiler:
Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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Midnight Jasper wrote:
Mm, the thing that annoyed me most about Logic is that it didn't really add anything new
The Logic system is probably the biggest new addition to the series. No other game has it, besides AAI.
Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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Mr. Bear Jew wrote:
Midnight Jasper wrote:
Mm, the thing that annoyed me most about Logic is that it didn't really add anything new
The Logic system is probably the biggest new addition to the series. No other game has it, besides AAI.
Heheheh, I mean to the actual method of gameplay. It just sort of inserted a step between "find evidence" and "present evidence", one that isn't completely necessary.
Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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Midnight Jasper wrote:
Mr. Bear Jew wrote:
Midnight Jasper wrote:
Mm, the thing that annoyed me most about Logic is that it didn't really add anything new
The Logic system is probably the biggest new addition to the series. No other game has it, besides AAI.
Heheheh, I mean to the actual method of gameplay. It just sort of inserted a step between "find evidence" and "present evidence", one that isn't completely necessary.
But it adds a level of interaction between the player and the main protagonist like no other Ace Attorney game has before it. Feel free to argue and prove me wrong, though.
Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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Mr. Bear Jew wrote:
But it adds a level of interaction between the player and the main protagonist like no other Ace Attorney game has before it. Feel free to argue and prove me wrong, though.
Hm, it's just that in my opinion the player used their own logic to try and choose what evidence to present, while ironically AAI's system of "Logic" prevents the player from having to use their own minds too much. It breaks down the larger leaps into smaller chunks, and while this simplifies the game it also means that the player has less chance to think too deeply into anything, because Edgeworth does it all for them.
I hope that made sense =P
Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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Spoiler:
I feel like they could have negated Logic all together if they'd shuffled most of that stuff into the Organizer and let you present it to people or Deduce it at the crime scene.
Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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Croik wrote:
My problem with the logic system is that just by having it, the evidence you collect seems to get split up arbitrarily between Logic and the Organizer. Especially in case three, if felt backwards in that "negative" evidence (i.e. stuff you knew existed but couldn't find at the scene) kept getting put into the Organizer, while actual evidence you could see would show up in Logic mode and couldn't be presented. Very strange.
I feel like they could have negated Logic all together if they'd shuffled most of that stuff into the Organizer and let you present it to people or Deduce it at the crime scene.
Spoiler:
I feel like they could have negated Logic all together if they'd shuffled most of that stuff into the Organizer and let you present it to people or Deduce it at the crime scene.
I totally agree with you. I had the very same thought you've mentioned at the spoiler section. Logic system per se is not a bad idea, but they must work harder on it to fulfill its potential in future games.
.gif)
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Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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The first was when you would hold on to one bit of logic for the longest time, wondering what it meant and where it would connect. This was cool because it had me thinking about it and paying attention.
The other one is actually what the OP complained about.
Spoiler: Case 4
Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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Anyway, I would agree that the "Logic" system generally felt like it was just kinda moving things forward...funny, I never really thought about it one way or the other till now.
Are we better off without it? I know you can't miss what you never had, but the entire rest of the series was just fine without any such mechanism, and I'd be surprised if anyone felt like a piece of their soul had been extracted if it were to be removed.
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Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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Spoiler: AAI-2
I believe the problem is the system is too easy. Such a problem is easy enough to remedy. If you could combine evidence like that, it might be better.
Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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GigaHand wrote:
I totally get OP's complait.
I believe the problem is the system is too easy. Such a problem is easy enough to remedy. If you could combine evidence like that, it might be better.
Spoiler: AAI-2
I believe the problem is the system is too easy. Such a problem is easy enough to remedy. If you could combine evidence like that, it might be better.
Spoiler:
Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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GigaHand wrote:
I totally get OP's complaint.
Spoiler: AAI-2
Spoiler:
Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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Perhaps in the future, logic could be enhanced, so you can connect logic nodes with evidence. Or take that idea one step further and connect evidence with evidence.
Bump - bump - bump - bump - bump - bump - bump
Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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Wooster wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I liked the concept of the logic system, but I felt it was inherently too easy and uncluttered. You start with two logic points, connect them, and the two points disappear permanently. It really turns into the Key + Keyhole = profit formula Croik mentioned a while back.
Perhaps in the future, logic could be enhanced, so you can connect logic nodes with evidence. Or take that idea one step further and connect evidence with evidence.
Perhaps in the future, logic could be enhanced, so you can connect logic nodes with evidence. Or take that idea one step further and connect evidence with evidence.
I like the idea of connecting Logic with Evidence, but the "evidence + evidence" mechanic sounds redundant; like a fan-pleasing substitute for Logic if that makes sense.
Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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Another thing about Logic is that it basically tells the player what they have to pay attention to and lets them forget about other details (as if those ORANGE WORDS in every sentence didn't do so enough already). This was happily subverted in case 5
Spoiler: Case 5, duh
M!lk Tea wrote:
The only thing I find redeemable about the logic system was the music
Don't forget the awesome nuclear explosion graphics and sound effects! THAT is what deduction looks like!
I didn't pay too much attention to the music 'cuz most of the time it only took two seconds to combine the logic XP
Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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Wooster wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I liked the concept of the logic system, but I felt it was inherently too easy and uncluttered. You start with two logic points, connect them, and the two points disappear permanently. It really turns into the Key + Keyhole = profit formula Croik mentioned a while back.
Perhaps in the future, logic could be enhanced, so you can connect logic nodes with evidence. Or take that idea one step further and connect evidence with evidence.
Perhaps in the future, logic could be enhanced, so you can connect logic nodes with evidence. Or take that idea one step further and connect evidence with evidence.
Yeah, I wanted it to be a "think about X with Y (which might even include people)". Though that might mean not doing a health-bar hit on it, because people would want to try to find any amusing thoughts.
Spoiler: Case 5
Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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Midnight Jasper wrote:
M!lk Tea wrote:
The only thing I find redeemable about the logic system was the music
Don't forget the awesome nuclear explosion graphics and sound effects! THAT is what deduction looks like!
I didn't pay too much attention to the music 'cuz most of the time it only took two seconds to combine the logic XP
I kept the logic screen open just to listen to the music. xD
Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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valentinite wrote:
Wooster wrote:
Perhaps in the future, logic could be enhanced, so you can connect logic nodes with evidence. Or take that idea one step further and connect evidence with evidence.
Yeah, I wanted it to be a "think about X with Y (which might even include people)". Though that might mean not doing a health-bar hit on it, because people would want to try to find any amusing thoughts.
That sounds like a really cool idea.
Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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That aside, there were points in the game where you connect nodes A and B to create node D which you then connect with node C. I personally think that a node combo is more fun then Connecting nodes A B and C all at once.
Bump - bump - bump - bump - bump - bump - bump
Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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Wooster wrote:
Not that I'm opposed to the idea of 3-Logic nodes being connected, but how would that work, story wise?
That aside, there were points in the game where you connect nodes A and B to create node D which you then connect with node C. I personally think that a node combo is more fun then Connecting nodes A B and C all at once.
That aside, there were points in the game where you connect nodes A and B to create node D which you then connect with node C. I personally think that a node combo is more fun then Connecting nodes A B and C all at once.
Nyeh, loads of times when that happened I'd mistakenly connect nodes A and C first and lose some health, even when they were all related. I support the multiple-connections thing as well. Plus it would make for bigger NUCLEAR EXPLOSION DEDUCTION graphics.
What could have potentially replaced the Logic system would be the ability to present multiple pieces of evidence together. That way the whole issue between what goes into "logic" and what goes into "evidence" would be cleared. But instead of like in the original AA games you could've been able to 'lock' down the evidence like you did in Logic and then present it together. I wonder how that would work out...
Spoiler: Case 5
Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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And seriously...
Kay and Gummy's references to the system were amusing but the whole thing is a bit of an insult to the player's intelligence considering the leaps of logic we're expected to do elsewhere.
To plug another game, I think the concept was used much better Case Closed: The Mirapolis Investigation for Wii. The game progression is entirely based on examing bodies and talking to people to get the pieces of "logic" and then putting all the pieces together in a grid system to see where they lead you. It takes a bit more thought and you closely follow the protagonist's thought patterns.
I do think Investigations is a great game but this is the aspect a sequel should definately look into improving.
Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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Hee hee.
Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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Regy Rusty wrote:
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Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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Regy Rusty wrote:
Poor Edgeworth! No cool powers for him!
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Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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The logical progression is X and Y, therefore Z. Rather than making the user provide X and Y then have the game narrate Z, it would be better if the game went "hey look, X and Y therefore ______ (cue logic music and a list of choices)" and asked you to decide the conclusion. It's less about noticing a connection and more about understanding the connection that way.
There are certain dialogue sequences that work this way in all the games, so it's pretty tried and true.
Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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DoctorDiablo wrote:
The way the logic system works is kinda backwards of how I'd like it.
The logical progression is X and Y, therefore Z. Rather than making the user provide X and Y then have the game narrate Z, it would be better if the game went "hey look, X and Y therefore ______ (cue logic music and a list of choices)" and asked you to decide the conclusion. It's less about noticing a connection and more about understanding the connection that way.
There are certain dialogue sequences that work this way in all the games, so it's pretty tried and true.
The logical progression is X and Y, therefore Z. Rather than making the user provide X and Y then have the game narrate Z, it would be better if the game went "hey look, X and Y therefore ______ (cue logic music and a list of choices)" and asked you to decide the conclusion. It's less about noticing a connection and more about understanding the connection that way.
There are certain dialogue sequences that work this way in all the games, so it's pretty tried and true.
Very true. I actually like it when the games give you choices for deduction/proceeding. Some might say it makes the experience even more passive than it already is, but I still enjoy it. It seems like there were more of those in the first game than in any other, then they tapered off a little. (Think of that first decision on whether you should get Larry to shut up or not in the first trial. They don't do it like THAT anymore. Or better yet, accusing Grossburg and Redd of being lovers!
Sorry, got a little off topic there...)
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Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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shadowofedgeworth wrote:
DoctorDiablo wrote:
The way the logic system works is kinda backwards of how I'd like it.
The logical progression is X and Y, therefore Z. Rather than making the user provide X and Y then have the game narrate Z, it would be better if the game went "hey look, X and Y therefore ______ (cue logic music and a list of choices)" and asked you to decide the conclusion. It's less about noticing a connection and more about understanding the connection that way.
There are certain dialogue sequences that work this way in all the games, so it's pretty tried and true.
The logical progression is X and Y, therefore Z. Rather than making the user provide X and Y then have the game narrate Z, it would be better if the game went "hey look, X and Y therefore ______ (cue logic music and a list of choices)" and asked you to decide the conclusion. It's less about noticing a connection and more about understanding the connection that way.
There are certain dialogue sequences that work this way in all the games, so it's pretty tried and true.
Very true. I actually like it when the games give you choices for deduction/proceeding. Some might say it makes the experience even more passive than it already is, but I still enjoy it. It seems like there were more of those in the first game than in any other, then they tapered off a little. (Think of that first decision on whether you should get Larry to shut up or not in the first trial. They don't do it like THAT anymore. Or better yet, accusing Grossburg and Redd of being lovers!
Sorry, got a little off topic there...)One of the best is accusing Mr. Wellington of loving large bananas.
I can understand why Edgeworth didn't have goofy choices like that, but I'd love to see silly conversation branches make a comeback in Apollo Justice 2, because "You're lovers" and "You love large bananas" were some of the funniest moments in the franchise.
Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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OT, but I wished the game also had parts where you actually did the forensic science like in 1-5 and AJ.
Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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QBnoYouko wrote:
OT, but I wished the game also had parts where you actually did the forensic science like in 1-5 and AJ.
THIS. I felt like Ema's appearance in the game was totally pointless. You see her for like, 5 minutes, and she preforms a whole whopping ONE task. They ask the generic forensics guy to do tons of stuff for them in this game, would it have been so hard to have Ema around to do that stuff instead? Then WE could take finger prints and analyze blood and whatnot.
Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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The problem is the overall easiness of the game, which of course affects this new "logic" feature as well. Edgeworth has an innate talent for investigation and cold logic, so his monologues often reveal all you need to know. Not to hurt Phoenix's lovers but Edgey is not as clueless as him, and thus once we get to know what he thinks, we also get told almost everything we need to know about the next testimony/argument.
While the game was absolutely entertaining, innovative, and introduced new important personalities, Edgeworth's "special" talent was brought to the point where the player is almost a passive spectator. I fear this was done on purpose to make the game more user-friendly, and I hope that the series won't follow this path, because it hardly made my brain work, made exception for one or two testimonies. And I'm no prodigy or von Karma, mind you.
Still I had a lot of fun. But it seemed more like a movie rather than an AA game.
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Re: Most illogical. (spoilers for Case 4 and 5)
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CrimsonV wrote:
Not to hurt Phoenix's lovers
I think you mean Phoenix lovers XD
About the choice system, it's entertaining but makes the game too easy in serious plot twisty situations as the solution is always "pick the most outrageous one". I really liked the choice in 1-3, though, where you had three equally outrageous choices that all didn't seem to make sense and the actual twist seriously surprised me.
Actually on topic, if we could decide both pieces of evidence/logic thingamajigs (thoughts?) as well as the result, that would be a lot more challenging and interesting. Although I'm not exactly sure how a result would be chosen. Maybe something else could be presented?
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