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Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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I have never hated an AA character before. Even the most annoying character had SOMETHING redeeming about them, and even if they didn't, I'm usually the type of person who analyzes and thinks up possible back stories until I *do* like a character. Character bashing just feels pointless to me when you can love a character instead.

So I went into AAI thinking Kay would be a fun, tomboyish breath of fresh air compared to the usual cute-and-quirky assistants we get. Instead she's the crowning Mary Sue GLORY of the AA world. UGH.

Why the HELL would no-nonsense, logical Edgeworth let some random teenage girl follow him around on a MURDER INVESTIGATION? Especially when she keeps claiming to be a thief and going on and on about wanting to STEAL something. I don't get why Edgeworth would even put UP with her, let alone let her anywhere near a friggin' CRIME SCENE. It's like whenever she was around, Edgeworth completely forgot his personality and common sense to serve her Sue whims! Edgey, I love you, but why in the WORLD would you act so brain-meltingly OOC in your own GAME?

Of course everyone loves Kay. Even Franziska, who is pretty abrasive towards everyone (like a normal FLAWED character <3). Why the hell would she like Kay!? If anything, Franziska shows disdain for people who take the focus off herself the rest of the game.

Kay's personality jumps everywhere too. One minute she's naive and incompetent, the next she's a super genius programmer who can reconstruct a crime scene in minutes, the next she's a pompous snob, the next she's a gaping idiot. And her reaction to
Spoiler:
her father's death
is just scary: she goes from crying into Edgeworth's cravat to grinning from ear to ear in the blink of an eye. It's like the game creators couldn't settle on what they wanted to get out of Kay, so they threw all their ideas together and ended up conjuring... her.

Not to mention she's OMG so good at everything and she even
Spoiler:
SAVED EDGEWORTH'S LIFE! Because Franziska couldn't pull Edgeworth down, or Badd couldn't draw his own weapon on Yew, or Miles couldn't have just NOT been frozen in fear. No, little Ms Deus ex machina had to save him with her magical words "To your right!" And yet for how amazing she is, she still needs a knight in shining armor to come *rescue* her from her tragic past. POOR BABY.


I loved AAI, but Kay ruined it for me. She feels like a horrible Mary Sue self-insert. Her personality is so undefined, I feel like she could've been replaced by another character with little to no change to the story line. They could have even changed the ending to make it about Ema's past instead, and it would've been basically the same thing.

In fact, I don't think she's real. I think she's a horrible Mary Sue self-insert in a fanfic by Ema Skye. Yep. Ema wrote her as a fantasy about her and Edgeworth together, and then added a cameo of herself so no one would suspect. It's the only explanation.
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Last edited by Pleading Eyes on Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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I agree with most of it. Hell, I don't even get why they didn't use Ema instead.

Also, I don't get why they only introduced her in case 3. :udgy:
Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Kay is not a genius programmer, it's stated pretty often that her father had designed "Little Thief" and from the various times that it's used Kay pretty much tells us that all she has to do is put in info and turn the zoom up to max. Even one of use could do that much.

Edgeworth puts up with her because he pretty much has no other choice. Towards the beginning of Case 3 when she's introduced Edgeworth tries to make her go away numerous times but finally gives up because she won't listen to him. He pretty much decides to drop it and put up with her following him around. It's not like he still doesn't protest against her thievery though, every time she mentions something about it he explicitly tells her that he "can't turn a blind eye to illegal activities". So it's not like he didn't try to get rid of her. Sounds like someone else we know? :maya: Although I do suppose that Phoenix had a bit more of a reason to let Maya hang around since she was Mia's sister.

I'd hardly call her reaction to her father's death odd. She sobbed openly in front of everyone which was against her promise to her father to "never cry in front of strangers". Even though Byrne had died Kay still felt that she had to keep her promises to him, so she bucked up and collected herself. Franziska and others comment on just how strong she is to do that, but it's not like she just up and forgot about her father dying. During Case 3 when you first meet Lauren, you'll notice that Kay tears up and gets a bit sad when Lauren mentions losing her father. This is also the reason Franziska is less harsh on Kay. Edgeworth mentions in thought that Franziska seemed to have a soft spot for Kay because she was also the daughter of a well-renown attorney. Besides, even Franziska has a heart and soul, she couldn't very well be a bitch to a young girl that just lost her father can she?
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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DecisiveYoshi wrote:
Kay is not a genius programmer, it's stated pretty often that her father had designed "Little Thief" and from the various times that it's used Kay pretty much tells us that all she has to do is put in info and turn the zoom up to max. Even one of use could do that much.


I dunno, that must be some AMAZINGLY user-friendly interface then. Because otherwise, inputting the algorithms necessary to PERFECTLY REPLICATE a scene seems like some master programming skills to me.

If they were going to go for the whole science motif, they may as well have given the "Little Thief" to Ema. At least that would've made *some* sense.

DecisiveYoshi wrote:
Edgeworth puts up with her because he pretty much has no other choice. Towards the beginning of Case 3 when she's introduced Edgeworth tries to make her go away numerous times but finally gives up because she won't listen to him. He pretty much decides to drop it and put up with her following him around. It's not like he still doesn't protest against her thievery though, every time she mentions something about it he explicitly tells her that he "can't turn a blind eye to illegal activities". So it's not like he didn't try to get rid of her.


But he DIDN'T try to get rid of her. He whined for a moment, and then he just threw up his hands and said fine. He even starts saying "C'mon, Kay" so she'll follow him. There's cops EVERYWHERE, how easy would it be to have her thrown out of a crime scene? She's some random underage girl! And again, SHE'S CLAIMING SHE WANTS TO STEAL SOMETHING. Tampering with a crime scene is SERIOUS STUFF. I can't see Edgeworth, of ALL people, being okay with that!

Even Lang is oddly lenient with her. Oh, Ema and Oldbag have to stay as witnesses (despite the fact that Ema didn't even SEE anything), but Kay? You can go trouncing around my crime scene ALL you want. Have fun with Edgeworth!

And Edgeworth humoring her with quips about him not approving of illegal activities is hardly a real protest. It was more like he was bantering than actually complaining. And again, I can't see why Edgeworth would even waste his time here.

DecisiveYoshi wrote:
Sounds like someone else we know? :maya: Although I do suppose that Phoenix had a bit more of a reason to let Maya hang around since she was Mia's sister.


Except Phoenix is *not* Edgeworth. Phoenix is a bit of a push over, it's part of what makes him loveable. And Maya wasn't some random girl, she was his beloved mentor's little sister.

And for all her flaws (because Maya actually had some that others acknowledged, like a normal character) Maya was consistent in her characterization. Maya was cute and quirky, and yes she could be obnoxious at times, but she was consistent. Kay's so all over the map, I don't know which personality I'm supposed to like or hate!

DecisiveYoshi wrote:
I'd hardly call her reaction to her father's death odd. She sobbed openly in front of everyone which was against her promise to her father to "never cry in front of strangers". Even though Byrne had died Kay still felt that she had to keep her promises to him, so she bucked up and collected herself. Franziska and others comment on just how strong she is to do that, but it's not like she just up and forgot about her father dying. During Case 3 when you first meet Lauren, you'll notice that Kay tears up and gets a bit sad when Lauren mentions losing her father. This is also the reason Franziska is less harsh on Kay. Edgeworth mentions in thought that Franziska seemed to have a soft spot for Kay because she was also the daughter of a well-renown attorney. Besides, even Franziska has a heart and soul, she couldn't very well be a bitch to a young girl that just lost her father can she?


No, I didn't expect Franziska to be mean to someone who had lost their father. But Franziska isn't usually the type to openly admire people. Look at her and Edgeworth, it's clear she admires him tons as her big brother. What does she do? Whip him and yell at him.

Look at Franziska and Phoenix. By the end of JFA she respects Phoenix a lot too. What does she do? Whip him and yell at him. Only in PRIVATE does she hold onto the shell card.

Maya lost a parent too, and Franziska didn't say two words to *her* about it, even after Pearl confronts Franziska about how mean she is to Maya.

So for Franziska to be all "You're so strong, Kay!" to some girl she just barely met, well, that's what Sues do to people.
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Last edited by Pleading Eyes on Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title

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I'm not a fan, either.

Admittedly, I haven't played through the third case, I'm just at the start, but Kay's already pissing me off. As well as being just annoying and having aggravating sprites, there seems to be very little that's actually redeemable about her.

Unlike Maya, Ema or Trucy, she seems to be talking about how good she is a lot of the time, too. As the OP said, Miles' personality seems to change for her and her alone (and no... I really don't want to see fanfiction about them as a couple-- I'm already cringing in anticipation) and given how he treats Gumshoe in the first case-- and apparently he knows and likes Gumshoe-- it seems just weird and wrong for him to even tolerate Kay.

Also
Spoiler:
she was such a BITCH to Gumshoe. "Hee! Sorry! I stole your role!" Seriously-- I didn't find that cute and funny, I thought that was catty and childish and kind of pathetic. Admittedly, Gumshoe's masochism got rather depressing, but Kay's fluffy attitude was just shitiful.


I thought I was really going to like her, too, but... I don't. (And... ack. The only other character I thought I'd like and wound up loathing was Iris. In short, it's best to not get my hopes up, I guess.)

Don't get me wrong, I love the game, and I utterly adore playing as Miles, but Kay just needs to be slapped off the face of the earth.
Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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This is Ace Attorney, where...

Spoiler: Apollo Justice
... you can have a male lead who is an orphan who sees through people's lies with the bracelet of his superstar long-lost mother and gets huge amounts of latitude from the Prosecutor and did I mention he punches the hero of the first three games in the FACE with no consequences?


Mary Sues are characters that impose the author's wishes on the people and things around them, whether or not it makes sense. By this definition, a large minority of the series cast fits the bill. Not a problem; wish-fulfillment is a central feature of these games! They all have some Sue traits!

People spill their deepest secrets to Phoenix even when it makes no sense for them to do so, because he has a necklace that removes their common sense. Franziska, of course, has the magic whip that stops people from suing her. Even if Kay's in the Sue Brigade, she's got a lot of company.

And even if she's a Sue, is she a BAD Sue? She brings out a gentler side of Edgeworth's character without diluting his snarkiness. Inside the courtroom, he takes nothing from nobody, but he's a softie outside of it, as the writers make very, very clear. Kay isn't an isolated case at all; he's particularly understanding and pleasant with a certain character in the third case, and, of course, Franziska. Given the extreme circumstances in which he meets Kay, and the emphasis on his paternal streak, this personality shift is no more OOC than his continued tolerance of Gumshoe's screwups and Franziska's whipping.

The nail in the "Kay is a Super Sue" coffin, I think, is that she gets away with much less than the other sidekicks. Sues generally don't follow orders well, but the one time she really defies Edgeworth's advice...

Spoiler: case 5
... she ends up with a gun held to her head.


Kay might talk about hypothetical theft, but Maya steals stuff constantly over Phoenix's objections and Trucy causes a consequence-free court panic (and also steals stuff), being a Great Thief who's never stolen anything seems less problematic. Also, she totally snaps to attention whenever Edgeworth wants something done, and does it.

The problem, if there is one, isn't that Kay is a Sue, but that she's unremittingly shallow. So? The whole game's fluff. AJ was fluff, this is fluff, and the difference between the two is that AAI is superb fluff, and Kay is the Queen of Fluff.
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Having not yet played the game, I can't really discuss this properly, but there's a potential reason why Kay might seem shallow compared to any other assistant. As far as I can tell, she's revealed in case 3, which means that you have all of 3 cases to uncover all the sides of her character. Maya's character was developed throughout all of three games, whereas a more serious side of Trucy was hinted at during the last case of AJ. Kay, on the other hand, has too much personality crammed into her for you to discover in too short a time, which might be a reason as to why she apparently flits schizophrenically between different sides of her character.

Ema only had one case, but Ema basically adopted Maya's personality with an extra helping of SCIENCE and Edgeworthfangirlism - there wasn't really anything new to expand on. Of course, her character was later developed in AJ.

Despite this, I'm pretty sure I'll feel the same way about Kay as the OP does. I adore Franziska, who is very flawed and very lovable, and I adore the dynamic between Edgeworth and Franziska, so I still think she should've been the partner. Although my opinion may change when I play the game. Who knows?
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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pleadingeyes wrote:
And her reaction to
Spoiler:
her father's death
is just scary: she goes from crying into Edgeworth's cravat to grinning from ear to ear in the blink of an eye.


I actually had this complaint of Maya in T&T. Her mother died (pretty much right in front of her) but the game doesn't give you enough to time to really see her cope with it. The whole "she's forcing herself to be strong," has been used several times in AA when the plot wants you to know, "Yes, she's sad, no, we don't have time to deal with it." By the time I got to Kay I was so used to it, I couldn't complain.

I think part of the reason Edgeworth puts up with Kay is *because* she's so childish. What would be the point of telling her off? She doesn't really mean it when she talks about stealing and he knows it (since she proclaims so many times that's not what Yatagarasu is about - and like someone already pointed out, it's not like Maya wasn't the occasional kepto). In case 3 she was very helpful, and case 5 was all about settling her past issues--I would find it more OOC if Edgeworth told her to buzz off. And why? Because she's a little immature? Personally I find Franziska almost worse, and Edgeworth's been putting up with her for years.

Not to mention...Pearl helped Phoenix investigate the murder in 2-4. And she was 8! :beef: No, young girls shouldn't be investigating murders, but Kay at 17 is hardly the worst offender the series has had.

Ultimately I'm not the biggest Kay fan, but not because she's a Sue (I'm not sure how you can call her that when she's a carbon copy of every assistant before her), she's just kind of bland. She doesn't bring anything new to the table. They really need to get off this genki sidekick track.
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I don't really like Kay. While she doesn't particularly bring out hatred to me, she's just... bleh. She doesn't annoy me but I kind of wish that it was someone else investigating with Edgeworth. :l I kind of didn't like it from the start when I heard a new character was going to be introduced.

I prefer Maya over her, and even Trucy. (I never even liked Trucy to begin with, she's as annoying as they get). But I certainly feel like Kay is a puzzle piece that does not fit into this game at all. It seems forced, imho.

I do like her theme song.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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One thing I've thought that would've made the game a whole lot more interesting would be if.

Kay and Shihna switched places.

Imagine if Kay was under Rou and Sheena was under Edgeworth.

Plus the plot twist in the 5th case would've been even more epic.
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Takuya wrote:
One thing I've thought that would've made the game a whole lot more interesting would be if.

Kay and Shihna switched places.

Imagine if Kay was under Rou and Sheena was under Edgeworth.

Plus the plot twist in the 5th case would've been even more epic.


That would take some monkeying around with the ages, but... I must say, I'm rather fascinated! I can actually see Lang and a somewhat-older Kay as a convincing duo.

Spoiler:
It'd also be nice to see a female villain slip into evil mode without a drastic personality change. Ini, Dahlia, Alita, Cammy - they all do 180s when you realize they're guilty. But with Kay, I could totally see her going "evil" with just a little extra bite to her usual enthusiasm. That I think would be creepier than "she's so sweet - no wait she's the devil."

Dee's the only one that doesn't fall into it I guess.

...Shit now I want Kay to be evil lol :edgy:

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Spoiler:
Another alternative would be if Sheena and Kay stayed the way they were, and just switched places (meaning kay's still innocent and kazura is still evil) it would be interesting as well.

The plot of the whole story might need a major rehaul though. And can you imagine finding out the person you've worked with for 4 cases is actually the final villain in the end? It's a lot more better than people whom the player has just met for a short period of time who seem normal turning out to be the villains. Like Kristoph and Dahlia.

It would also give Sheena a whole lot more character. Even more than now.

Oh oh. And. Rou and Kay could both be from Zheng Fa. And they could talk in Mandarin and Edgeworth would have no idea what they're saying lmao. Kay would be a little more interesting that way, but not entirely much. Perhaps Sheena is a bigger focus in my idea...
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I find Kay kind of amusing. She's like a slightly smarter and wilder version of Maya, who I also like. I do agree that an Edgey/Franny duo would be epic, and I've complained before that they need more brother/sister interaction where they actually seem to care about each other.

I just saw this exact same topic on the kink meme (copy/pasted I'm sure) so I already read it there. Honestly, I think part of the reason Kay gets the Sue label is because she's a new, female character who tags along with a popular male character. Maya and Trucy don't get this kind of hate; I think if Kay had been part of the series from the beginning, people would have liked her better.
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moonfall wrote:
Honestly, I think part of the reason Kay gets the Sue label is because she's a new, female character who tags along with a popular male character. Maya and Trucy don't get this kind of hate; I think if Kay had been part of the series from the beginning, people would have liked her better.


Not like "female sidekick tagalong" hasn't been the MO for every AA game ever...!

I don't think introducing Kay sooner in the series would help because she'd be trying to fit into exactly the same role Maya was already in. Maybe if she'd shown up sooner in the game itself there'd be more time for her to develop in an interesting way.
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Even so, she was injected into a series/story that may not have needed it, considering the particular glut that her role has taken on. We'll never know now, and there's no taking it back, so we'll just have to live with it and hope that further entries in the series will develop the ginormous cast of characters at its disposal... =_=

As long as they keep everyone's pairings entirely unconfirmed either way, I think this fandom will be happy. :jake:
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I don't think Kay is bad as a character per se, it's just the way they handled her could have been better. If she had been introduced earlier and given more time to develop as a character, she'd probably have been received better. As it is, she's only in two cases as the teenage sidekick. And I really think her role in case 4 could have been toned down a lot. I mean, little Trucy only appeared once in the flashback part of 4-4, and that was a similar situation to what was in AAI-4. By trying to make her a central part of that case, she did exhibit some sue tendencies, but again, I think they were kinda cramming her in for character development since she was introduced so late in the game.

EDIT: It also really doesn't help that not including the flashback, AAI takes place within the span of three days.
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To be honest, I'm not that keen on any of the assistants the main character has, except maybe Ema (in 1-5) and Maya. Thankfully Kay only appears mainly in two cases, Case 3 and Case 5. I know she appears in Case 4 but only as a little kid and she's not as annoying when she's small, in my opinion.
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I actually liked Kay as a character, granted I would have liked more screen time for her as well. As far as Mary Sues go I've seen a lot worse. I get sort-of the same feeling from her I get from Apollo, really. In that there wasn't quite enough character development in this game. I have a feeling that this, like GS4, were designed as a "First game in the series" sort of feel...

Spoiler: Ending
Which is backed up by the fact the ending was basically "WHERE CAN I FIND A DETECTIVE AND LAWYER TO COMPLETE MY DREAM TEAM!?"


And as far as Franziska's reaction to her goes I'm actually GLAD that she doesn't take the "Just Whip it" approach with Kay because Franny could use some development in the not whipping department. That, and Franny only really whips people out of the "Gumshoe-Edgeworth-Judge-Opponent in Court" range when they make her really angry...

Spoiler: AAI5
And the only Current Timeline case they were together in when Kay was there it's when they were confronting someone else and most of Kay's lines were really the "group dialogue" with Edgeworth. And the time they were confronting Franny herself it was still Edgeworth doing most of the provoking.


Although I admit I might be a little biased towards Kay. I find girls with ponytails mo~e.
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Croik wrote:
moonfall wrote:
I don't think introducing Kay sooner in the series would help because she'd be trying to fit into exactly the same role Maya was already in. Maybe if she'd shown up sooner in the game itself there'd be more time for her to develop in an interesting way.

She also doesn't exactly fit in case 1 or 2. Why would she be on that flight, or why would she follow Edgey into his office in the middle of the night when he isn't going to do anything? If she had been in there, someone would've said, "OMG, look at how they just stuffed her into these cases for no reason!"

MoronSonOfBoron wrote:
Even so, she was injected into a series/story that may not have needed it, considering the particular glut that her role has taken on.

...Isn't she kinda important for the overarching plot? :yuusaku:

T3h_Waffleman wrote:
And I really think her role in case 4 could have been toned down a lot. I mean, little Trucy only appeared once in the flashback part of 4-4, and that was a similar situation to what was in AAI-4. By trying to make her a central part of that case, she did exhibit some sue tendencies, but again, I think they were kinda cramming her in for character development since she was introduced so late in the game.

She was a "central" part, but it's not like she got too much screen-time. She asks for change and kicks him a few times, and each of those appearances take about 5 seconds. She shows up after cross-examining Gummy, and that's really her only big scene, and it's not like that scene is really that long. Then she shows up again for 5 seconds at the climax. And if by "sue tendences" you mean everyone acting all nice and sweet to her... she's a 10 year old girl. People generally act nicer and sweeter to little kids.




She's really not worse than any other sidekick in the series, IMO. She may not be that deep, but at least she has a story and a connection to main plot. (Okay, Ema is pretty important. But if Maya couldn't channel Mia, she'd have no place in almost every case, and the only things Trucy did was show Polly to perceive, give Phoenix the paper, and help Zak, all of which she could've easily be written out of.)
Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Well, I apologize. True as what you say may be (she does have a rather back-and-forth personality, I'll give you that), I will keep my rose-tinted glasses.

Liking her has made me a lot happier than breaking down the flaws in her characterization.
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Bad Player wrote:
She also doesn't exactly fit in case 1 or 2. Why would she be on that flight, or why would she follow Edgey into his office in the middle of the night when he isn't going to do anything? If she had been in there, someone would've said, "OMG, look at how they just stuffed her into these cases for no reason!"


Well, the first batch of screenshots did imply that at one point Kay was involved in the airline case. Seeing how the case worked out it makes sense that they cut her, but I'm sure it wouldn't have been *that* hard to come up with a reason.

I think Kay is important because she connects Edgeworth more strongly to the series of cases than if she weren't there; he doesn't have a personal investment in the events like she does. I think it would have been even more effective had she been a stronger character. If they had used an existing character like Ema or Gumshoe I think we'd be left wondering "Why hasn't this come up before?" and have to reevaluate what we thought we knew about them.

Canon has to add characters to continue moving forward, otherwise things stagnate and canon starts stepping on its own toes. Giving Edgeworth someone new to interact with was a good thing, I think maybe Capcom just wasn't confident enough to step outside their formula and go with someone outside the mold.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Croik wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
She also doesn't exactly fit in case 1 or 2. Why would she be on that flight, or why would she follow Edgey into his office in the middle of the night when he isn't going to do anything? If she had been in there, someone would've said, "OMG, look at how they just stuffed her into these cases for no reason!"


Well, the first batch of screenshots did imply that at one point Kay was involved in the airline case. Seeing how the case worked out it makes sense that they cut her, but I'm sure it wouldn't have been *that* hard to come up with a reason.

I think Kay is important because she connects Edgeworth more strongly to the series of cases than if she weren't there; he doesn't have a personal investment in the events like she does. I think it would have been even more effective had she been a stronger character. If they had used an existing character like Ema or Gumshoe I think we'd be left wondering "Why hasn't this come up before?" and have to reevaluate what we thought we knew about them.

Canon has to add characters to continue moving forward, otherwise things stagnate and canon starts stepping on its own toes. Giving Edgeworth someone new to interact with was a good thing, I think maybe Capcom just wasn't confident enough to step outside their formula and go with someone outside the mold.


I agree with the above poster.
Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Just finished the game.
Spoiler: end
At least they have her leave at the end to pursue other things, whereas JFA, T&T, and AJ ended with Maya/Trucy staying with Phoenix/Polly. (And even though Maya left at the end of AA, she did say she was going to come back.) So if they make AAI2, it's not like she's tied to being in it.

Really, I'd place her on the importance of Dahlia. (At least in this point in time.) She starred in a few cases in one case, was important for the overarching plot in that game, but besides that isn't too important. ...Even if she is the assistant in the game.

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Croik wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
She also doesn't exactly fit in case 1 or 2. Why would she be on that flight, or why would she follow Edgey into his office in the middle of the night when he isn't going to do anything? If she had been in there, someone would've said, "OMG, look at how they just stuffed her into these cases for no reason!"


Well, the first batch of screenshots did imply that at one point Kay was involved in the airline case. Seeing how the case worked out it makes sense that they cut her, but I'm sure it wouldn't have been *that* hard to come up with a reason.

I think Kay is important because she connects Edgeworth more strongly to the series of cases than if she weren't there; he doesn't have a personal investment in the events like she does. I think it would have been even more effective had she been a stronger character. If they had used an existing character like Ema or Gumshoe I think we'd be left wondering "Why hasn't this come up before?" and have to reevaluate what we thought we knew about them.

Canon has to add characters to continue moving forward, otherwise things stagnate and canon starts stepping on its own toes. Giving Edgeworth someone new to interact with was a good thing, I think maybe Capcom just wasn't confident enough to step outside their formula and go with someone outside the mold.

This is true, actually. Edgeworth's stake isn't like a defense attorney's of games past. He's not representing a client or trying to get someone off the hook. He would just be solving the murders he gets wrapped up in because he's there when they happen and gets caught up in the ensuing order of events.

Spoiler: various points in the game
But Kay keeps him grounded and provides the actual plot for the game. Her involvement allows Edgeworth to feel a personal stake he otherwise wouldn't feel. The second case is the only one that does not have any personal connection to Edgeworth whatsoever (he just gets caught up in a murder on a plane and helps to solve it because that's the right thing to do).

If you took Kay out of the equation, only cases 1-3 would have happened. Case 4 would have been rendered irrelevant because Edgeworth wouldn't think of Kay and thus not have remembered why the KG-8 Incident is important to Kay and case 5 wouldn't have happened at all since it centers entirely around Kay wanting to go to the embassy. Case 1 happens because Edgeworth walks in on a murder but he would have never pursued the second person in the room. Case 2 happens anyway because that's on a plane and has no bearing on Kay. Case 3 would have happened because he'd still have gone to the amusement park at Ernest Amano's request but I imagine the conclusion would have been a lot different (without Little Thief, it's likely Lauren would have taken the fall as the murderer).


So Kay does serve a purpose in that she's the thread that exists to bind Edgeworth to the overarching plot as well as provides the grounding for cases 4 and 5 to take place.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Well you do have a very good point there, Kay is quite the Mary Sue. However, that doesn't mean you have to hate her for that.

But perfection is only to be expected from Edgeworth's assistant.
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So we're admitting that Edgeworth's plot involvement revolves around Kay. Sounds like Sue material to me. :will: It's sad that they couldn't have made a game about Edgeworth without having to toss in Kay as a gimmick. They're both deserving of more distinct places in the storyline.

Just look at Rhoda Teneiro! People love the interaction between her and Edgeworth, and how it plays out over the course of that case. Edgeworth is narratively tied in without being authorially tied down.

I've had to handle similar situations in the development of Super Makoto, actually; some original characters existed only to provide "connection" for the associated canon characters, rather than highlighting their existing relationships, and there was a bit of a row over their inclusion. We ended up cutting some out when they proved to be dead ends, and while Kay Faraday is already a shoehorned connection, I hope she doesn't turn out to be a dead end.
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Yaragorm wrote:
Well you do have a very good point there, Kay is quite the Mary Sue.

Eh, I'd still like to debate that a bit.

She's no more out of place in a murder investigation than Maya, Ema, Pearl, or Trucy. Heck, she's older than most of them. It's not like her personality jumps around too much. She's generally perky, and her whole thief thing is pretty consistent. Using Little Thief doesn't exactly make her a "genius programmer", and it's really just a plot device; I don't think you really could make something like that. And she gets sad when stuff about fathers dying/disappearing comes up. And about her going back and forth between smiling and crying in case 4? She knew about her father's death beforehand; she had time to come to terms with it, so let out all her pent-up emotion in Edgey's cravat, then could go back to her previous mental state.

Also, it would've been easy for Edgey to get her out of the crime scene, with all the cops, but she kinda did just save his life. Maybe that had to do with it just a teensy bit? Especially since she was harmless and never actually stole anything.

Everyone may seem to love Kay, but who really does? The people who really interact with her are Edgey and Gummy. As I just said, she saved Edgey's life, and she did have some history with Gummy. And Franzy, whose MO is getting annoyed with everyone, may have loved her, but that was in case 4. When she wasa 10-year-old girl whose father had just died. Heck, another facet of her character is trying to give off an amazing first impression, as shown by always introducing herself as a prodigy... Saying, "Oh, so you are such a strong person!" makes a pretty nice, flattering first impression, doesn't it?
(...Gosh, a bit late in the discussion to reply to the first post)



tl;dr: She's not any worse than anyone else


@MSoB: PW wouldn't have happened without Maya. If she hadn't been born, Mia might not have become a lawyer. (That was one of her reasons, remember?) Besides that, who knows what would've happened in 1-2, and even then, Maya is the one who got 1-3 for him and won 1-4 for him.

Edgeworth was at the courthouse in case 4 on his own. He didn't get thrust into the KG-8 incident because of Kay. She was the driving force that got him re-involved in case 5, but it's not like it revolved around her. Kay dragged Edgey into case 5; Maya dragged Phoenix into 1-2, 1-3, 2-2, 2-3, and (in a way) 2-4. You can use these arguments to say Kay is a Sue, but don't go saying how Maya and everyone else is so much better. (Not that you did... in that post. More of a general thing >_>)
Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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MoronSonOfBoron wrote:
So we're admitting that Edgeworth's plot involvement revolves around Kay. Sounds like Sue material to me. :will: It's sad that they couldn't have made a game about Edgeworth without having to toss in Kay as a gimmick. They're both deserving of more distinct places in the storyline.


This is why I don't like the term Canon Sue. You can't have a game just about Edgeworth, or just about characters we've already seen. You have to add people, and those people have to be important or there's no story. The first game's plot was the same way in that it depended on DL-6, which Phoenix himself had nothing to do with except for the fact that he cared about Edgeworth and the Feys. That connection helped develop him as a character in the process, too.

It's just that in Edgeworth's case, he's pretty much as developed as he's gonna get, so it's hard to imagine any case being more meaningful and personal to him than what he's already been through (short of going full out love interest :beef: ). They had to make the cases personal to someone else, and I don't think that's enough for a Sue label.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title

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Am I the only one who was way too busy listening to her theme music over and over to really pay that much attention to her virtues or vices? Because really, I think I enjoyed her song more than any other track in any of the games, and that's quite a feat! :rock'n:
Sure, her perpetual insistence on the whole "Great Thief" thing was overused, but so was Franziska whipping people in this game--she seemed even more overeager and trigger-happy than she was even in Justice For All. Still, more Franziska was highly appreciated...but back on topic, Kay had her moments--I was actually glad when
Spoiler:
she tried to attack Shih-na and ended up getting held captive for a moment
partially because someone had to do something and partially because I was just glad Edgeworth didn't get himself held at gunpoint
Spoiler:
again. By the same person, no less.

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Spoiler: Opinions! And minor spoilers?
Quote:
Why the HELL would no-nonsense, logical Edgeworth let some random teenage girl follow him around on a MURDER INVESTIGATION?


Wait, Edgeworth may be logical, but since when his he "no-nonsense"? He's a fan of the Steel Samurai for crying out loud! No character in the Ace Attorneyverse is immune to nonsense.

Also, put yourself in his shoes. You are a prosecutor, and a "random teenage girl" tells you that she's a thief. Would you have nothing to do with her, or would you want to keep an eye on her? I would argue that it makes perfect sense that Edgeworth would let Kay hang around him! Besides, she proved herself to be a competent ally.

I thought the writers did a good job at balancing her smartness with her youngness. She's competent, but she also obviously a teenager and she makes bad decisions due to her inexperience. As for flaws, her's is obviously her recklessness. She's also quite obnoxious at times.

Anyway, I thought she was the perfect assistant for Edgeworth. Her snark bounced well of his sarcasm, and they had really good chemistry. I didn't think Edgeworth was acting OOC in the slightest. I'm sure that the writers of the game knew what they were doing, being that they created Edgeworth in the first place.... with all due respect, perhaps it is your own interpretation of the character that needs examining? Playing the game, I got the impression that Edgeworth was very... Edgeworthy.

It's funny. I thought I was gonna be all "meh" about Kay, but I ended up liking her a lot. I suppose you could say I fell victim to her charms, haha! If she's a Mary Sue, then at least she's a BAMF Mary Sue.


Spoiler: Some notes on Japanese culture, and MOAR SPOILERS
On Kay and Maya both acting strong in the face of their respective tragedies:

To a Western audience, the way they bottled everything up and put on a cheerful face would come across as creepy. However, in Japanese culture, it is considered very rude to "burden others" with your emotions and problems. This includes even close friends and family members. People are expected to be strong for the sake of others, so if something bad happens to you, you just have to suck it up and cry in private.

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Kartoon Kween wrote:
Spoiler: Some notes on Japanese culture, and MOAR SPOILERS
On Kay and Maya both acting strong in the face of their respective tragedies:

To a Western audience, the way they bottled everything up and put on a cheerful face would come across as creepy. However, in Japanese culture, it is considered very rude to "burden others" with your emotions and problems. This includes even close friends and family members. People are expected to be strong for the sake of others, so if something bad happens to you, you just have to suck it up and cry in private.

Spoiler:
I feel like I've learned/heard that before... At least in AAI they have the promise book, so we have some other reason for Kay to hide her emotions while Maya just does it. (Not that we know why Byrne would make his daughter promise that, but it's still better than nothing.

Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Go figure. New game, new sidekick, and people hate her, even though she's only been in 1 GAME. Just like it was with Trucy. I think she's a great character, and if they put her in another game she would end up being just as good or better as Maya.
And so what if she appeared in case 3? There wasn't a place for her in the first 2. Don't forget Maya didn't show up until 1-2.
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Psh. People hated Ema when she showed up. (Because she was a 'recycle' of Maya? I think the whole point was that she was a nod to Maya in terms of design, age and history, IMO)

Personally I wasn't sure if I would like Kay, but hell, I LOVE her and her quirks (heehe, 'Badger GET'
Spoiler: case 4
and kicking Edgeworth in the behind for badmouthing Gumshoe, HAHA! I mean seriously, who else would have had the guts to do something like that?!
). I didn't like Trucy at first, but I warmed to her as much as any other character in the series. And I certainly wouldn't call Kay a Mary Sue. Sure the plot was mostly centred around her, but as you'll find out
Spoiler: all of AAI
it's centred around the Yatagarasu, who turn out not to be Kay, but a three-person group. Meanwhile there's the fake Yatagarasu, the smuggling ring. Not to mention Kay doesn't even show up or is even MENTIONED until three cases in....
Plus she's just as flawed as any of them. She's obnoxious, although she's actually softer than she appears (a la Franziska). She's rather naiive and rather self-centred,
Spoiler: Kindof, case 5
due to her unfailing faith in the Yatagarasu name
, though she's rather smarter than Gumshoe and quite happy to voice that fact. Yet.. she's somewhat endearing. :c Also I think the 'stealing the supporting role' was Kay (that is, CAPCOM) breaking the fourth wall, telling the players that as well as Gumshoe just for a laugh. Of course Gumshoe shows up a little later, and they all tag along with each other anyway.

tl;dr: Feel free to like her or not, but 'Mary Sue' is reaching a little.

Also, I'm rather shocked and surprised that the Japanese culture thing hasn't been mentioned sooner- it IS a Japanese game after all,
Spoiler:
and Kay is in front of another person spilling her emotions, which her dad told her not to do. So what else was she going to do, keep crying? No, she was thinking of her dad so she bottled up. Even Edgeworth noted this in his monologue a moment afterwards; so you see, it just takes a little understanding of the culture and retrospect to understand. Even though it IS hard to comprehend at first, if you're sheltered like me.
Also note that her theme is very Japanese, not to mention the ideal she lives up to (Yatagarasu).

Also, in terms of how good she is with her little gismo, remember please that she's been actively interested since she was ten years old. In that time, I'm sure- with talent- she would have mastered the Little Thief to quite the degree. You don't need to read too much into it to work that out.
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I wasn't bothered at all by Franziska's reaction to her. It made sense to me.

Spoiler:
Kay was only ten in the flashback, and because of her age, it actually reminded me of the way Franziska behaved toward Pearl in T&T. Pearl's calling her mean bothered her a lot more than anything anybody else said and it makes me think that she has a bit of soft spot towards children... or at least a less hard spot towards children.

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pleadingeyes wrote:
Maya lost a parent too, and Franziska didn't say two words to *her* about it, even after Pearl confronts Franziska about how mean she WAS to Maya.


Fixed.

In all fairness, after Pearl confronted her, it really got under her skin. Who's to say she didn't seriously regret it privately, when she was told that she was 'nothing but a little girl without her whip'?

Also if you remember, when she first met Maya, Maya was the suspect, so back then all Fran cared about was getting her convicted (to uphold the von Karma name blahblahblah....). She didn't know or care much about her past, and I don't think bringing up the matter of her mother's disappearance (and eventually death) was exactly relevant or tactful.

Whereas with Kay, she knew of her not as a suspect, but as a child of a prosecutor they knew through the case, who was just killed an HOUR AGO at the time. It stands to reason that she would praise her for bravely bottling up quickly, after letting out her anguish. Kay was ten years old after all, for crying out loud. Bear in mind also that Fran was young, and likely was able to empathise with someone a few years her junior. ALSO, note that as soon as she'd left the courtroom to examine another room, she'd started to dismiss her as a meddling child. So she IS abrasive to Kay if not to her face, you just don't seem to notice it. Somehow.

As for saving Edgeworth's life, Edgeworth and guns aren't a good mix, just like with earthquakes. So, he froze. It's likely that he needed a little prod to force him down, and somehow Kay was able to provide that for him.
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Cevian wrote:
And as far as Franziska's reaction to her goes I'm actually GLAD that she doesn't take the "Just Whip it" approach with Kay because Franny could use some development in the not whipping department. That, and Franny only really whips people out of the "Gumshoe-Edgeworth-Judge-Opponent in Court" range when they make her really angry...

She doesn't whip women, I noticed.

MoronSonOfBoron wrote:
So we're admitting that Edgeworth's plot involvement revolves around Kay. Sounds like Sue material to me. :will: It's sad that they couldn't have made a game about Edgeworth without having to toss in Kay as a gimmick. They're both deserving of more distinct places in the storyline.

They could have, but then we'd have 5 unrelated cases. At least all of AAI's cases tied in together.

Kartoon Kween wrote:
Spoiler: Opinions! And minor spoilers?
It's funny. I thought I was gonna be all "meh" about Kay, but I ended up liking her a lot. I suppose you could say I fell victim to her charms, haha! If she's a Mary Sue, then at least she's a BAMF Mary Sue.

This. Although I must say, part of why I ended up liking Kay is her dynamic with Edgeworth: it reminded me of myself and an old friend that I remember fondly, and I seriously imagined every bit of dialogue between Kay and Edgeworth being things me and my old friend would have said too. So my reasons are mostly personal.

As far as Kay's characterization is concerned, I think it's fantastic. The fact that her behaviour seems "all over the place" fits what she is just right: she's a teenage girl! Not only that, but keep in mind that real people have "all over the place" personalities too! Some people can just be described as unpredictable, right?

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Beautiful_Blue wrote:
I wasn't bothered at all by Franziska's reaction to her. It made sense to me.

Spoiler:
Kay was only ten in the flashback, and because of her age, it actually reminded me of the way Franziska behaved toward Pearl in T&T. Pearl's calling her mean bothered her a lot more than anything anybody else said and it makes me think that she has a bit of soft spot towards children... or at least a less hard spot towards children.


Spoiler:
There's also the fact that Franziska felt empathy towards Kay because they both had prosecutors for fathers.

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Kay is seriously the best.
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Beautiful_Blue wrote:
I wasn't bothered at all by Franziska's reaction to her. It made sense to me.

Spoiler:
Kay was only ten in the flashback, and because of her age, it actually reminded me of the way Franziska behaved toward Pearl in T&T. Pearl's calling her mean bothered her a lot more than anything anybody else said and it makes me think that she has a bit of soft spot towards children... or at least a less hard spot towards children.


Me neither -- or Edgeworth's. We don't see that much of Edgeworth with Maya in the original trilogy, but what we do see I thought fit well with how he reacts to Kay.

And, honestly, I liked her, and didn't find her a Sue -- Mary Sues, in my opinion, have to get things revolving around them. This wasn't. This was revolving around the overarching plot, and Kay was just another character swept up in it. She doesn't do that much, if you compare it against any of the other characters -- she gets a little more silly banter, but that's about it.
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Let's see. So far the reason why I don't like Kay is the blatant favoritism. It feels like one of those characters that's been put into a story revolving around them in order to put a certain main character in the middle of it. I couldn't take her seriously either. Looking back, Maya holds the spot for Best Teen Girl Sidekick because she's childish(but just actually kind of insane) but mostly mature, and smart too. I didn't take to Ema at first but I liked her at the end because of the grief that overtook her near the ending of the case. Trucy not so much. Kay...too bad. I ended up sighing a lot when Kay jumped the "we can do it!" train in case 5 and everyone's moods did a 180, and on top of that, she didn't DO much up till that point!

Bottom line: Having a hyper teenage girl like Kay with Edgeworth doesn't work. It just doesn't. The people who were suggesting the idea of Kay and Shih-na switching places as assistants appealed to me more than the canon version. Edgeworth's mature, more mature than our Nicky Boy. And he deserves a woman, not a loli. </my two cents>
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