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In court or out of court?
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PW games: Being in court defending your client, cross examining witnesses, and collecting evidence to build up your case.
Or.
AAI games: Investigate crime scenes using evidence, rebuttals and "logic" to determine the perpetrator.
Re: In court or out of court?
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I liked AII style as it was a nice change to the original format.
But PW style is still really nice.
I'd have to say AII, though. It's so much more 'realistic' and interesting.
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Re: In court or out of court?
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The funny thing is that, in the end, in both series you're doing pretty much the same thing. While the investigation phase has a different appearance, you do the same things (examine stuff, get evidence, talk to people, present stuff to people). Rebuttals are exactly the same thing as cross-examinations. In both series innocents are accused and you have to find the real murderer.
Re: In court or out of court?
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Jozerick wrote:
The funny thing is that, in the end, in both series you're doing pretty much the same thing. While the investigation phase has a different appearance, you do the same things (examine stuff, get evidence, talk to people, present stuff to people). Rebuttals are exactly the same thing as cross-examinations. In both series innocents are accused and you have to find the real murderer.
Yeah this.
The only difference between them essentially is that prosecutors are backed by the police and so have the authority to arrest on the spot. Take the villain of Case 2-4 for example, as Phoenix you uncover his identity for sure along with most of the story but you don't have any authority to make an arrest or even the villain of 1-4 as well who emerges blatantly near the end.
Personally AAI I think we should utilise that system for investigation phases, they can seem dull when you don't get the back-an-forth between Phoenix/Apollo on screen and an opponent that you get in trials for example utilising AAI's style for investigation phases would remedy this I think.
Though for purposes of time passage and plot development I think the trial segments are totally necessary too.
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Re: In court or out of court?
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Re: In court or out of court?
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Re: In court or out of court?
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Re: In court or out of court?
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Detective Badd wrote:
I prefer in-court. I would like to see an AAI style game integrate the role of a prosecutor into a trial with investigations from the scene and a courtroom. You would start off by linking the perpetrator to the case, then find evidence to support at least an accusation. Then break them in court and watch them walk out in chains. It would make it a lot closer to the experience of prosecution than AAI put up by essentially making Edgeworth an unofficial defense attorney.
I wouldn't say Edgeworth is just a defence attorney...understand that the objective of the prosecutor is to put the RIGHT person behind bars. That's how Edgeworth's character developed as he learned it was about the quest for truth rather than the victory unlike his mentor Von Karma.
Though the point of investigations is that the case is so solid that it's an easy win. As y'know...most cases are presumably outside PW characters. After all they still go to court, the final case of AAI ends with the perp going to court first and then we see the trial went smooth and simple. I don't think AAI would really work in court (outside of the cases set there) as it would end up just reiterating a bunch of stuff we already uncovered in the investigation.
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Re: In court or out of court?
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The standard testimony/cross-examination sequence really wouldn't work given it's established that the defense attorney does that in GS1-4 (even at points where it'd be more sensible for the prosecutor to do the cross-examination), and it's pretty much the bread-and-butter of the series. You could try a bunch of different things, e.g. Magatama and Logic Chess-like sequences to help fill in the gaps, but how far can you make that stretch?
*My idea: Decision-tree based gameplay. Coach your witnesses on what to say, decide which evidence to present and when, find contradictions in Phoenix Wright's outlandish notions of what really happened, and control the personality you present to the court.
Mistakes can leave openings for the defense's counterarguments, earn the ire of the judge, or turn the jury against you. Can you present a convincing enough case to have the defendant convicted?
Problem is it makes the game a courtroom simulator instead of a narrative-driven VN (not necessarily a bad thing, but quite a break from the existing games - maybe for a spinoff?).
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Re: In court or out of court?
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I love both, but I'd prefer to solve cases in a realistic way. I mean: No magatamas, no connection with dead people, that special power of Apollo and no "supah Little Thief device". I mean, that just ruins the game, because in real life no one would solve a case that way.
Once I said that, I choose out of court (AAI). Why? Well, you can interact with the scenario using a character (and also a partner who helps). The way you investigated on PW games was funny, but in the end it got boring (IMO).
Anyways, I would prefer a mix: Investigation system from AAI and getting cases solved at court, the way it was on PW games.
Re: In court or out of court?
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CalistoYew wrote:
Good question.
I love both, but I'd prefer to solve cases in a realistic way. I mean: No magatamas, no connection with dead people, that special power of Apollo and no "supah Little Thief device". I mean, that just ruins the game, because in real life no one would solve a case that way.
Once I said that, I choose out of court (AAI). Why? Well, you can interact with the scenario using a character (and also a partner who helps). The way you investigated on PW games was funny, but in the end it got boring (IMO).
Anyways, I would prefer a mix: Investigation system from AAI and getting cases solved at court, the way it was on PW games.
I love both, but I'd prefer to solve cases in a realistic way. I mean: No magatamas, no connection with dead people, that special power of Apollo and no "supah Little Thief device". I mean, that just ruins the game, because in real life no one would solve a case that way.
Once I said that, I choose out of court (AAI). Why? Well, you can interact with the scenario using a character (and also a partner who helps). The way you investigated on PW games was funny, but in the end it got boring (IMO).
Anyways, I would prefer a mix: Investigation system from AAI and getting cases solved at court, the way it was on PW games.
Aww man but finding 'tells' in body language isn't really a magical power, after all Phoenix can do it without Trucy after she taught him to an extent plus the crazy stuff is part and parcel with AA. It's not the same if there isn't some weird mysterious forces at play. If those things truly ruined the game then you wouldn't have enjoyed a single AA game so far.
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Re: In court or out of court?
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Sorry if I don't like those magical devices, but they don't make sense. I know it's fiction, but it should be real fiction: that is to solve cases by logic, clues and common sense, not by dead people, mediums, these lock things or by watching the crime scene how it was when the murder was committed. Reallyyyy? How many killers would've escaped without them? Guess 90% of them.
P.S. Oh, and I don't think Apollo's power it's like the rest, guess it's some psychology ability.
Thanks for reading.
Re: In court or out of court?
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Re: In court or out of court?
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CalistoYew wrote:
That's what you say. If I didn't like a single AA game, I wouldn't have registered here. But, hey! I think it's easy to make assumptions, right?
Sorry if I don't like those magical devices, but they don't make sense. I know it's fiction, but it should be real fiction: that is to solve cases by logic, clues and common sense, not by dead people, mediums, these lock things or by watching the crime scene how it was when the murder was committed. Reallyyyy? How many killers would've escaped without them? Guess 90% of them.
P.S. Oh, and I don't think Apollo's power it's like the rest, guess it's some psychology ability.
Thanks for reading.
Sorry if I don't like those magical devices, but they don't make sense. I know it's fiction, but it should be real fiction: that is to solve cases by logic, clues and common sense, not by dead people, mediums, these lock things or by watching the crime scene how it was when the murder was committed. Reallyyyy? How many killers would've escaped without them? Guess 90% of them.
P.S. Oh, and I don't think Apollo's power it's like the rest, guess it's some psychology ability.
Thanks for reading.
Well yeah I'm not saying you didn't like them I'm saying they couldn't have been completely ruined as such yeah. Actually the system I had most trouble with was the opposite, the logic system, just because it seemed....like taking something which in actuality is simple and in every game and making it a system.
But fair enough if ya want some gritty realism in the next game.
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Re: In court or out of court?
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Pierre wrote:
CalistoYew wrote:
That's what you say. If I didn't like a single AA game, I wouldn't have registered here. But, hey! I think it's easy to make assumptions, right?
Sorry if I don't like those magical devices, but they don't make sense. I know it's fiction, but it should be real fiction: that is to solve cases by logic, clues and common sense, not by dead people, mediums, these lock things or by watching the crime scene how it was when the murder was committed. Reallyyyy? How many killers would've escaped without them? Guess 90% of them.
P.S. Oh, and I don't think Apollo's power it's like the rest, guess it's some psychology ability.
Thanks for reading.
Sorry if I don't like those magical devices, but they don't make sense. I know it's fiction, but it should be real fiction: that is to solve cases by logic, clues and common sense, not by dead people, mediums, these lock things or by watching the crime scene how it was when the murder was committed. Reallyyyy? How many killers would've escaped without them? Guess 90% of them.
P.S. Oh, and I don't think Apollo's power it's like the rest, guess it's some psychology ability.
Thanks for reading.
Well yeah I'm not saying you didn't like them I'm saying they couldn't have been completely ruined as such yeah. Actually the system I had most trouble with was the opposite, the logic system, just because it seemed....like taking something which in actuality is simple and in every game and making it a system.
But fair enough if ya want some gritty realism in the next game.
Well I dind't mean that kind of "Logic", but yeah, it sucked a little. I suppose they had to include some "mystical power which noone but Edgeworth has" to look like the previous games, and that was that Logic system. Anyways, I got wrong the connections many times :shame on her:
Maybe I used a wrong adjective, "ruin". My apologies, my english it's not that good and maybe I got it wrong. It's just like Jozerick said:
"I do remember being quite put off by the spiritual stuff at first. (...) Eventually I go used to it, but I still think the series could have done without it."
That's it
Re: In court or out of court?
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I was ticked off by channeled Mia, though. It seemed like Phoenix couldn't win a single case without her.
Anyway, the AA trilogy played within its own rules, and it made sense if you accepted the whole Fey thing into the fictional reality.
About the bracelet... I just can't accept the crazy explanation that is given as to how it works. For me, it is as mystical as the magatama. In the AA trilogy, whenever Phoenix said something, the prosecutor/witness would immediately jump out of their chairs and ask for proof. In Apollo Justice, Apollo says "URE LYIENG I SEE IT" and the case is closed. This is made even worse because the where's waldo sequences always happen during the climax.
In my opinion, the perceiving thing made no sense. Ok, so I touch my ears whenever I'm nervous, does that mean I am lying? No, no, no, NO.
I thought logic made the game easier and the plot progression less interesting, but it was necessary to "glue" the plot, since there was no clear distinction between the investigation and court phases and Edgeworth never bluffs like Phoenix does. Still, I would have liked if they had more stuff added into the logic menu, even if not to be used at all. At least it would add some room for error. Most of the time there are only 3 or 4 pieces of logic to join.
The little thief was just there to help find some minor details, because they either didn't want to or couldn't give proper background to the contradictions. In other words, it made the game easier.
Back to the topic at hand, I prefer the court style. It has the prosecutor and judge, there is generally more evidence to present, etc. I don't know how to explain it much, either. I think it's like somebody had to choose between a slice of chocolate cake and a slice of strawberry cake as opposed to two slices of strawberry and chocolate cake, and that somebody thinks chocolate and strawberry don't go well together.
Re: In court or out of court?
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I didn't mind Magatama so much even though it was MAGIC! because the effects were fairly mundane and it didn't ask me to suspend my disbelief too far (unlike spirit channeling).
My chief complaint with Little Thief was that the way it was depicted was unnecessarily flashy (and the transition animations are looooooong).
GK1's logic system had a workable gameplay idea (and thankfully didn't pretend to be a superpower), but it was just too easy.
As for Perceiving, yeah, I agree completely with bijwmoc.
Quote:
In the AA trilogy, whenever Phoenix said something, the prosecutor/witness would immediately jump out of their chairs and ask for proof. In Apollo Justice, Apollo says "URE LYIENG I SEE IT" and the case is closed.
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Re: In court or out of court?
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Pierre wrote:
But fair enough if ya want some gritty realism in the next game.
Maybe I'm reading this the wrong way, but it sounds condescending. Not liking the mystical stuff doesn't mean wanting "gritty realism". Even without the supernatural, the games are already full of colorful characters and crazy situations. They wouldn't be realistic or gritty.
Re: In court or out of court?
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Jozerick wrote:
Pierre wrote:
But fair enough if ya want some gritty realism in the next game.
Maybe I'm reading this the wrong way, but it sounds condescending. Not liking the mystical stuff doesn't mean wanting "gritty realism". Even without the supernatural, the games are already full of colorful characters and crazy situations. They wouldn't be realistic or gritty.
Nah I didn't mean the condescending, I understand some of the darker cases are extremely good and some of them are by and large less emphasis on the spiritual sense. For example 2-4 is long been one of my favourite cases and it's darker and tackles some more realistic issues (like your client lying to you about innocence) a lawyer might have to deal with. It also doesn't have a heavy spiritual emphasis (at least not to the extent of 1-4 or 3-5).
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Re: In court or out of court?
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I enjoyed AAI because of Logic actually playing a role, finally. Granted, some of the ways the logic connections work aren't the way I would do it - my brain skips corners that AAI forces me to take. For example, in case I-4, regarding a videotape. I instantly connected that the missing videotape was in a recorder, but the game forced me to go the route of tape, sound, false alibi, location of tape.
I still like playing AA games, though, because in court are things that cannot be done while out on investigations. Well, there should be stuff unable to be done in court, but that's generally not the case.
C-A
Re: In court or out of court?
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CatMuto wrote:
Logic beats Court!
I enjoyed AAI because of Logic actually playing a role, finally. Granted, some of the ways the logic connections work aren't the way I would do it - my brain skips corners that AAI forces me to take. For example, in case I-4, regarding a videotape. I instantly connected that the missing videotape was in a recorder, but the game forced me to go the route of tape, sound, false alibi, location of tape.
I still like playing AA games, though, because in court are things that cannot be done while out on investigations. Well, there should be stuff unable to be done in court, but that's generally not the case.
C-A
I enjoyed AAI because of Logic actually playing a role, finally. Granted, some of the ways the logic connections work aren't the way I would do it - my brain skips corners that AAI forces me to take. For example, in case I-4, regarding a videotape. I instantly connected that the missing videotape was in a recorder, but the game forced me to go the route of tape, sound, false alibi, location of tape.
I still like playing AA games, though, because in court are things that cannot be done while out on investigations. Well, there should be stuff unable to be done in court, but that's generally not the case.
C-A
*shrugs* You shouldn't play Ace Attorney games then if you want everything to perfectly emulate law and logic it can only do what it's programmed and it's essentially a visual novel, not a text adventure where you can do anything with anything.
Also the Logic system in AAI is stupid, it implies that logic isn't used in other games implying it's some kind of 'superpower' of Miles to compare to the likes of a Magatama when really logical thinking is required throughout AA1-3.
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Re: In court or out of court?
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And I understand it, but I cannot help but feel cheated. I mean, it's a game about law - you'd expect at least some basics of the law in real life to actually count in this game. Like the chain of custody. Or illegaly obtained evidence (was mentioned and used in 1-5, but never afterwards).
C-A
Re: In court or out of court?
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I still prefer the AA gameplay over the AAI gameplay, but I think for GS5 they need to incorporate AAI's CSI gameplay into the investigation chapters. As for the tediousness of the gameplay on recent replays, that can't be helped as that's just a side effect of the gameplay. It's not like you'd want to play these games again and again right after eachother anyway. I find that an AA is perfect 2 years after playing it previously. I'm playing Apollo Justice again after 4 years and it's almost like a new game which is awesome. (I also figure that it will be at least 2 years until we get GS5 over here anyway so it all works out)
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Re: In court or out of court?
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CatMuto wrote:
I agree with the superpower thing. I found it rather sad when, in case 5, Kay and Gumshoe said that it was time for Edgeworth to "use that ability" of his. Really, tragic that logic seems so very uncommon that it gets labelled as a special ability.
And I understand it, but I cannot help but feel cheated. I mean, it's a game about law - you'd expect at least some basics of the law in real life to actually count in this game. Like the chain of custody. Or illegaly obtained evidence (was mentioned and used in 1-5, but never afterwards).
C-A
And I understand it, but I cannot help but feel cheated. I mean, it's a game about law - you'd expect at least some basics of the law in real life to actually count in this game. Like the chain of custody. Or illegaly obtained evidence (was mentioned and used in 1-5, but never afterwards).
C-A
Well it's not the real-world law, it's set in the future in alternate-America I wouldn't say it's fair to expect anything about real life law in it other than the basic premise of a court, prosecutor and attorney deciding the fate of a client. Heck they could change it so that Prosecutors and Attorneys actually meet each other in the ring and the winner determines what is right while the judge referees the boxing match if they wanted.
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Re: In court or out of court?
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Re: In court or out of court?
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I thought AA's investigation style was a lot better and easier.
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Re: In court or out of court?
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Re: In court or out of court?
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Re: In court or out of court?
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Re: In court or out of court?
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Re: In court or out of court?
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Re: Magatama... I'm not here for realism. Give me over-the-top characters; and blatant abuse of the law (Phoenix loses his badge for submitting forged evidence, but all of the stuff he stole from crime scenes is 100% viable in court? Why not!); and risky bluffing; and spirit mediums, over common sense and basic logic any day. Edgeworth has never had a day of fun in his life.
(Disclaimer: Okay, maybe one or two. But he hated every moment of it.)
Re: In court or out of court?
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Re: In court or out of court?
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Coyote wrote:
In court! Maybe it's nostalgia speaking, but I love the first-person investigation style and the division of investigation/court scenes. [...] Walking is only a novelty for so long.
That! I enjoyed AAI but I, too, love the first-person style and... well, nostalgia might be a reason too.
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Re: In court or out of court?
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Re: In court or out of court?
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Fool Bright wrote:
I enjoyed both because of the different styles between AA and AAI. AAI gave you a view of how an everyday investigation was for Edgeworth.
Even though I prefer in court-style, like I just said, I have to say, that's true, a view of how an everyday investigation was for him was good fun.
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