You make more sense than I do at 3 am. lol.

But I agree. Perhaps Minami could disappear after a while [job-related maybe?], long enough for the occurrence with Repast to happen. However I too am reluctant to give her superpowers for the same reasons you pointed out. But at the same time she could have /minimal/ power when she "returns"; Maybe she went to Kiddy Fiddler or Aiga for this.

I'm thinking that to avoid too many angelic heroes/villains, her wings could either be black or she could have winglets near her ankles and temples. But that's not an important detail right now.

---

And once again, Silver manages to say just about everything I think about before I get the chance to. I bet if we tacked a tag with 'Urby' on you, no one would be able to tell it wasn't me
My opinion on the OC dig...well, it's entirely selfcentered. Right now I don't care if Random Outsider A walks in and goes "wtf mate" because it makes sense and works for me and the people I care about (the people working inside the project). We are having one heck of a time and feh, I can't bring myself to have less fun at the moment so Mr. Newcomer could say "Hey that was cool". ...Right now, opinions like that aren't enough to satisfy me. Maybe later when I "broaden my horizons" (quotes used because it's a cliche and I hate it but I can't think of any other way to put it) I might need outside people going ga-ga over it to fuel my crumbling mind, but at the moment they're not doing anything for me.
And loving Silver's idea of 'community friendly' version - although we'd have to finish the 'not-so-community friendly' version first, yamean

Makita > Takoto. I see 'Taco' and 'Naruto' in that second one. Not good for Urbybrain.

UGH Minami I knew someone was going to bring her up sooner or later |< *has no love for Minami*
If she's in it as a regular human being, I'd want her in somewhere in the beginning (I mean WAY beginning. Pregame!) trying to sabotage Foxboy and Okamigirl's relationship.
And then they manage to shoo her away. It would be an important growth point for Makoto when she stands up to this 'angelic bully'.

If we give her powers I want to go overboard on wings. If you've ever read A Wind in the Door, I want a Progo-type angel in hurr
Makes her less human and more of a...something.
Edit: More about Progo if you're confused.

Last edited by Urby on Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

At long last I am able to read this. Seriously, CR needs to stop the Internal server error crap.
My computer also needs to stop freezing when I AM TRYING TO POST STOP.

Anyway.
Minami as some evil fallen angel demi-god? =O Maybe she could be consumed by her own evil power or something...cliche as that too sounds.
But I agree with Boss on the public at large deal. They're not doing anything for the project right now...If they can't deal with it the way it is, there are other venues. It makes sense to us and even some people who aren't in the project but are in the Pchat daily.
To those who are absolutely opposed: I'm sorry this doesn't suit your needs/desires, but to each his own.

---

There we go, Urbs. There's two pieces of character growth right there- she meets Takita and is able to at least try to go into the outside world, and then she stands up to Minami the Deceptive, thus revealing Makoto's inner predilection for truth and justice. [/cheesy]

I'm going to try and help out on the other story arcs now because the one I was mainly working on (Shannon's) is mostly done (read as: LAWLZ IT'S GOT AN ACTION-FILLED SECOND HALF AND SPIFFY SHOWDOWNS AND MOTIVES BUT NO FIRST HALF HAHAHA). Unfortunately, right now I'm corked for ideas. X_X

And on a certain issue: That's the way to go about it.

---

....Silly me, my little "WAIT HOW DOES THIS ALL FIT IN HERE?" thing didn't include the possibility of Minami coming in before Matt.
DURHURHUR ><;

Anyway, that's the idea I like best. Fallen angels lalala are nice and all, but 1. See aforementioned unliklihood factor and 2. It would be a nice point for Makoto's character development as Urby said for Minami to come about that time. And segue into Makoto and Takita's relationship nicely.

---

It's far more important for Minami to be a normal human being. I agree with the bit that it should be very early on - it lets us see Makoto actually engage the outside world and take on a very personal issue, and her "first" bad guy, possibly without using her zomgpower.
A mundane opponent would mean a lot more to the growth of her character - revelation of morals and ethics, not only on Makoto's part but also a sort of footnote about the nature of humanity itself. That and seeing Makoto protect Takita rather than the other way around would be... what's the word.

Squee.

I personally don't like the cliche destiny of DEATH that we have for Matt/Repast. As much as having Matt around seems alien and weird, we shouldn't just off the fellow for "authoritative integrity." That and it's cliche to have him die like that. I dunno. So let's not just assume it, if you please - I don't want this guy written off too easily (although I have no idea what his potential could be). Right now my main reason to retain him is because he completes the triangle with Makoto and Takita. As I elaborated in my last post: Takita being the "male caretaker" figure in her life, he may just have to accept the idea of his little girl growing up and running off with some nice guy. Even though they're all of similar age. Yeah.
Especially when he finds out Matt is Repast, but more importantly the fact that Makoto would in a sense protect Repast in order to protect Matt.

...Hmmm! Someone run away with that idea.

Cracktastic Question: With Franziska run off, Manfred will be seeking the Perfect Heir (he is also in need of the Perfect Comb, the Perfect Convection Oven, and the Perfect Swedish Penis Enlarger...). Does he just craft one using his Power Perfect? Or by some... pairing... where's her mother... er, let's not think about--

FRANZISKA'S SISTER. WITH A CHILD. AH. AHHH. AHHHHHHHHHH.
Finally it's happened to me right in front of my face and I just can't hide it
Wait, but she's an older sister, so she would be the heir? AHHH(etc)

I THINK I HAVE THE PERFECT CANDIDATE FOR THIS DAUGHTER OF EVIL HURHURHUR no I don't forget I said anything seriously

WEBSITE STUFF PLS RESPOND :(
I mentioned earlier that my dad has some free server space (lots of it) and is willing to let me use one of the domains for this project. I'm perfectly able to do webmonkeying (page coding, content uploading) ... Yea or Nay?

---

Er, wait, ARE you serious? XP

Well, maybe Takita would try to tell Makoto about Repast, but she would deny it until Repast reared his ugly head. And then, she would have to come to terms with that somehow...

Hmm... wait, is the heir Fran's sister or her niece? (Clarification, please~) I could try and help out with forming the concept and other wonderful stuff. Maybe she (the sister) uses her little girl for to help her achieve a lot of her goals? Or she's trying to bring Fran back to the Karmas/at least prevent her from disrupting the status quo overmuch.

Come on, brain, there's gotta be more... *taptap* No? Drat.

As for the website... yay, of course. It ought to be a sort of... what's the word... Well, I can't think of it, but it ought to have the information all organized and whatnot. Maybe like the character profiles here at CR?

---

Agree with you on the Minami issue, Bee :)
As for Matt...meh :/ I'm still not fond of his inclusion and I'd rather have Makoto end up with Takita anyway, thus my jumping on someone's suggestion of "maybe he dies?" and running away with it in a rushed, cliched manner >>;
He DOES add a lot to the plot and character development, I'm not against that, it just...doesn't sit well with me to make Matt a good guy. Period. There's a certain point where messing with people's characters TOO much detracts from it for me--and like I said earlier, there is no POINT in calling him "Matt" and using Matt's character design if we're changing him to a whole different person.
But I seem to be the only person opposed to this, so I guess from here on I'll just shut my trap as I'm in the minority and this IS a GROUP project :/ I don't want to ruin the mood by continually arguing against one of our concepts every time we try to build on it.

A website would be FANTASTIC :) So far we have things scattered throughout the thread--I'd LOVE to have organized categories (art, character profiles, plot arcs) to refer to as the project goes on. If you're willing to spend the time making a website, I say go ahead :)

---

I personally think that it's just more likely for Makoto to choose Takita over Matt. It seems that Makoto and Takita have been better friends for a longer period of time. So it makes sense, really.

But yah... whatever Minami is, early in Makoto's story and 1st/2nd example of character development (the first being Makoto meeting Takita and working up the courage to face the outside world?) is good.

Oh, and welcome back, Bee. ^^

---

Boop bee doop you girls steal the words right out of my mouth.
I don't feel like elaborating right now so BEEP BEEP GET OUT OF MY WAY I'M SPEEDING NEEEEERRROOOWWW

...I don't want Matt to die. It's too 'fishtail', and uh I like him >> I will not have my designwork killed off plz
Minami as regular girl is go then. (Progo thing is a bit...well, eh at best)
Let's plothole out the whole Franziska's sister business. ...Honestly, does she do anything in the game?


And Bee I want that website made even if I have to cut my hand off to make it happen.
My left one, though.
...I wanna keep drawing.

I could help with small things. I for one would like to post the chatlogs I collect so I could throw some codes in there to make it work and pass it to you.
Of course, if there's any synopses or tinywriting to do, your resident flavortext writer is right here

All right, I'm going to be a bit blunt, so please forgive me.

You do realize that you have basically told me and everyone else following this thread intermittently "you're not important, come back when we want you", right? I just wanted to say that when you tell your audience that they aren't a consideration at all, then you probably shouldn't be surprised when they're not around or not interested when you do want their praise. I'm not saying you shouldn't have fun creating. Creating IS fun! And, no, you shouldn't contort yourselves to the point of twisting yourselves in knots for your audience. But you need to balance that with consideration for your audience, IMO.

Especially since a lot of the planning is done in a public place with the illusion that anyone can join in and help. If you've decided to restrict it to an inner circle, that's certainly the right of everyone involved, but I don't think it should be surprising or particularly upsetting when "strangers" walk in and comment or want to participate. I guess it's just that "us" and "them" thing that raises my hackles. If you all decide you "don't care what they think", then that is certainly your prerogative. If that's the case, I'll bid you a fond goodbye and wish you luck.

---

I'll be a bit blunt myself. To everyone who was saying they didn't care about the general public's opinion: This. Is. A public forum. It's not like in paintchat where there might only be a few people at any given time. I can't make you guys care about the general public's opinion--However, I'd like to ask you all to at least be a bit TACTFUL. We don't need to be insulting or rude.

Musouka, you bring up something I've actually been thinking for a while now based on a few people's posts...and it's a good point, but I don't think that it's necessarily true--Actually, what I really mean is that it doesn't HAVE to be true. We can make it be otherwise.

The thing is, when this thread was started, it was to have cracky fun. A lot of it went on in the paintchat, and naturally, cracky fun+chats that the general public never sees will=many inside jokes. I'd love to make this more community-friendly--like I said, I can DEFINITELY see why someone just coming into the thread would be overwhelmed and run right back out--but the thing is, we've taken those inside jokes and run with them to the point of developing plot points and characterization over a few hundred posts. So while the inside-jokes weren't with the INTENTION of making this project one big cliquey thing, the thing is we've based too much of the project on things that not everyone can understand or jump into to just rewind back and take out all the cracky inside jokes and OCs--it would just be too much effort and would probably make everyone get grumpy and quit, which just does not get us anywhere.

I, for one, very much see your point and would love to try to please everyone and make this project more open while not sacrificing the enjoyment and effort of the people who have been here so far. That's why I proposed my idea of a separate fic that didn't include so many inside jokes--granted, it's not a great idea, but the point is we should come up with ways that we CAN satisfy everybody instead of arguing about it. If not a fic, then something else.

Basically, two ways to tackle it: The way I just suggested had an alternative to the in-jokish plot. We could try to find other alternatives as well. But we could also try to make this project something that more people can understand
Now that Bee has come up with a feasible website, I think this is an excellent opportunity to get more people involved--unlike this thread, a website is organized. We can have pages explaining some of the inside-jokes, have an organized reference people can refer to to see who all the characters are and their roles, etc. Link it on the first page, explain about the oekaki chat, etc. etc.

We can't redo this thread, but we can do what we can to try to compromise and make everyone happy.

---

Last edited by SilverZephyr on Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

[Silver done went and beat me again!
But wait, with the power of Wonder Twinnage we can improve on this argument(?) or at least her talkage makes my idiocy make more sense.]

Whoa whoa when did that happen and how and who went where.

Balance issues. There's always a problem with balance. One grain of rice when we're playing with marbles! (wtf you sayin urby your analogies a-make-a no sense)

You are right, of course. We are experiencing balance problems (fanon vs canon). I'd like to think we're working on fixing it (Hello there, Makoto. You look realistic today) but something we can't fix at the moment are the OCs currently in the mix. And a few people seem to have a big problem with that, and so it's like "Hey hey we're trying to get something new done here, please don't make use review and take apart something we've already finished."
It's flusterating. And I can't seem to express it without making it sound like a put-down in some fashion.

If it redeems me in any fashion, I do care about audience (whoever they might be) but after a while people bringing up the OCs gets just blgeh. We know you don't get it. We'll try and deal with that later.
That's what I'm not 'caring for'.
Right now time would be better spent trying to figure out what isn't fanon instead of getting poked about things like that. We still don't have everything down for Makoto might I remind everyone >>

As for this being 'public'...well, it's always nice when people drop by and maybe want to help, but I said before. I don't want someone to jab at problems we know we have and can't fix, either at the moment or 'ever', should I say?

Then again loli h8 working with groups that are too big so I have no idea anymore

There are other things to address but arugh am I tired and frustrated with leif in general I will deal with it later |<

Well, I'm not trying to say that people aren't allowed to have fun or have in jokes. Far from it. If you popped into one of the plotting chats I have with my friends, I'm sure you'd be just as lost. But, might I add that when we DO get visitors, we try to keep the in-jokes and such to a minimum, because no one likes feeling lost, confused, and out of the loop.

Like I said earlier, if you do want this to be something that other people can someday appreciate then I would say A) don't tell them you don't give a rat's ass what they think about the project--feedback is important and time-consuming, trust me, I DO have things I could be doing aside from typing this out; B) keep in mind you're working from canon and in that respect these characters do have certain core personality traits that people will find confusing if they're not there; C) again, this thread is a public space, if someone takes the time to keep up with it, they deserve to be heard even if they aren't in on all the in-jokes.

But, you know what it all boils down to? Don't dismiss outside opinions and thoughts. They're important if you want to keep perspective on the project. A closed circle eventually becomes stagnant.

RE: OCs. Okay, you know what? I'm going to lay everything down on the line here. I'm going to be super honest and get it all out. There is nothing wrong with OCs. I have them. A couple of them are even in large, central roles. Here is my issue. A good OC is a foil for a character, not the reason it shines so brightly. OCs should show an aspect of the character than a canon character can't, they shouldn't be central to a canon character's motivation. I'm not going on a Mary Sue witch-hunt. I'm not saying burn all your OCs. Yes, OCs can be integral to the story, but they should be working in service of the canon characters, not vice versa.

No, I'm sorry to say Aiga probably won't be particularly mushy if he falls in love. He's arrogant and self-centered, and while he does want admiration and respect, keep in mind he feels like he has to lie and cheat--create an entire facade--to get it. Matt too is a sociopath. Changing these aspects of them for the sake of love cheapens them as characters in my eyes. That might not be what you want to hear. It might be more "fun" if you lock away the darker sides of these characters and make them sweet and fluffy. But then they cease to be who they are.

---

100% agree with you Mu. On everything in your post--as for point A, I agree but I'm willing to set it aside unless someone comes back and blatantly says that they disagree in a rude way :/ Looking to the future instead of the past and all that. Point B I'd like to stress. Not to beat this over the head with a truck, but it's all nice and good if Urby likes Matt and wants him to be nice. That's fine.
But nobody else is going to UNDERSTAND that--I know /I/ don't. We are using Pheonix Wright characters because they are characters that are familiar to all of us and we enjoy working with them. But take away their core characters and you also take away the point of using the character in the first place. Heck, Matt's "nice" sprites have the most insincere smiles I've seen on any supposedly "nice" person :/

....And I know that as Urby reads this she's going to be thinking "Why can't we just go back to the fun and ideas we were having before instead of arguing" but. Urby, I'd just like to say that Matt is the ONLY character I've had any sort of real beef with the portrayal of. It's not like I'm trying to tear apart the project. But ignoring a conflicting opinion does not make it go away. It'd be much more productive to come up with a compromise then to say "Can we just not argue?" We can't just ignore the fact that we disagree and then continue to state our opposite opinions. That won't get us anywhere. Personally, I'd like to be able to enjoy this project without thinking "WTF is Makoto doing going out with a sociopath?" because my brain IS wired to think of Matt that way and saying "okay, he's nice now" won't change my overall opinion--In other words, changing canon character's personalities makes it hard to get into because nothing makes sense. It's especially confusing to me because the rest of the characters we've mostly kept intact, so one odd character out just sticks out even more.

And honestly, I don't see why making Matt a sociopath would have enough negative effects to insist on making him nice :/ Can someone just tell me straight out WHY we're making him nice? Please? Because every time I question it I get a reaction of "STOP HAVING ALTERNATE OPINIONS ARRRGH" which just...honestly makes me dislike the idea even more. I'd prefer if we could TALK about it rather than ignoring it. PLEASE tell me why Matt's nice?

And I've repeated myself so many times in this post it's not funny so I'm just going to go to bed before I hurt myself ._. And I'm sure I'll wake up to posts of "HOW COULD YOU ARGUE WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE AGREEING ON EVERYTHING FOR THE SAKE OF PRODUCTIVITY" and this whole cycle will continue, but really. Not properly addressing alternate opinions=/=productive or...even satsifying, really.

Edit: I've been avoiding out-right saying this for the sake of being positive, but as long as Mu is being honest I think I'll follow suit.
Sami, not that I have anything against Shannon as a character, but something's been bothering me...You haven't played GS4, have you? So how could you know what Kirihito would want in a love interest? That just makes no kinds of sense. Creating a character that another character would intimately love requires actually knowing something about the character you're pairing them with :/ Doing some research and asking about Kiri's personality--and then really taking his character into consideration--would do a lot in the way of making characters in his life more real and believable.

---

All right, now, let's see. I've been negative enough. Let's be positive now.

As far as OCs go. You only have what? Four? (Including plushies) That's not a terrible, unreasonable amount--in the interest of full disclosure, I have more than that myself--so I'm not saying any of them should be tossed out. Perhaps it would help if they were integrated more into the plot at large? I know that seems like an odd thing to say when talking about OCs having too much impact, but, okay, for example. Shannon seems like a very, very Kirihito-centric character, so I'd like to see how she reacts and feels about other characters. Ditto with Moonlight Angel.

I also think to avoid OC-syndrome, there should be characters that like them, characters that don't, characters that are weak against them, characters that get the better of them. Like, Yuuchan, in your Kawadzu outline I noticed that your character was pretty much the dominant one in terms of not being flustered or having a negative reaction. But, it might be more interesting if she had problems dealing with Kawadzu. I mean, hell, you had him lusting after her panties, that would be uncomfortable for most people...

If you allow them to move beyond the characters they're "attached" to, and to have a wide and varied reaction to the population of this universe, I think they will really come alive and begin to fit in more. So much of PW is about the connections characters have to one another. Gumshoe reacts to Edgeworth completely differently than how he does to Phoenix, or Pearl, or Franziska, and that's what allows him to be more rounded in his interactions with the cast. I think OCs function much the same way, as long as you don't use shorthand like "everyone loves her/him" or "everyone hates her/him". Even if they never meet these characters, if can be fun to imagine how they would react if they did.

Make sense?

---

I asked if MA could possibly meet Makoto....or the other charas. She'll come across them eventually but I know she won't like Sadistress for one. xD
As far as Aiga goes, fluffy=DO NOT WANT. At least right away. Yuu is a naive sort of thing with big dreams and H0MG SHOUJO MANGA NO WAI thinking when it comes to romance. Her view on that is slightly skewered and Aiga will be there to kinda indirectly say "Look. Stuff like that doesn't really exist. You can like it but realize that things don't go that way." At times he is going to try and sort of warp her into what he is/was...He has a complex from Kiddy Fiddler so of course he's going to want someone he can relate to, even if he has to make them that way. But Yuu/MA is quite stubborn so....we take things from there. One thing I know for sure, she will [at least attempt to] make Aiga see that he doesn't have to lie, cheat and steal so to speak to get the respect he wants.

On the subject of Kawadzu...I dunno if you have seen my doodles but she IS quite flustered with Kawadzu stealing her panties. I haven't drawn this scenario yet but she...kinda....roughs him up a bit. Normally, she chases him and throws things...

He's like a leech around her neck.

I'm not bringing any more OCs into the story excusively, though at a later time I will introduce how they affect Yuu, namely those in her past. She's happy-happy but a lot of time it's a cover-up. She has a lot of self-placed guilt and sadness, but doesn't want to involve others by showing it. In that way she's a bit selfish and you could say she has tunnel vision...

But dangit I want her to interact with more people. >< I thought we had Le Comte in with them at some point....and don't forget Matt guys. =o Despite her being reluctant and expecting the same thing she ran into as a little girl, with her first friend; i.e said person absolutely refusing to have a thing to do with her.

I'm....also a bit confused on the Nice!Matt bit. I like Repast but...I dunno....I thought Matt only liked women he could use for a good fling or somesuch? But like Silver I'm not going to argue it and get flamed. I'm just a designer.
edit: I need to stop editing this post. -_-

---

Yeah, about OCs.... there's a diffrence between original charracters.... and character insertation. There needs to be purpose of the character. It should fit the story. It shouldn't be there because of how much the author of the story wants it there.

Alot of comics, sprite comics especially, make the mistake of introducing a author-character. At some point, the reader will get annoyed of the inside-humour that will spring from this - they are not interested in that character. because it is unimportant. One must always remember that the story, in whatever shape or form, is dirrected at an audience - not one self. And if you focus this as an outlet of personal feelings, the readers, or viewers, will go uninterested. For instance, I read a webcomic yesterday, and it was awesome. But then the author decided to post random doodles and images, made small clay figures, and posted pictures of cats and the authors pet lizards. The last 70 pages of the comic have no attachment to the story what-so-ever, and the comic is unofficially killed.

Another example could be fanfics. There can be original characters, surely, and it can often improve on a story, if done correctly. Then there's the forced charracters, which doesn't fit in. Like 'how WG-Agy2341 met the entire cast of the pokemon crew and went on an adventure! Whoo!' - by WG-Agy2341. I think you see the point here. (names and scenario made up...)

The biggest issue here is, IMO, that the universe is build.... in an online drawing machine. It seems that whenever something cool is made, it gets poped into the Makoto universe. Or attempted to at any rate. Like, when someone wanted Godot to turn into Gant's pedophiliac replacement and created a backstory of how to hypnotise chieldren, naming him The Piper? Why was this done? Because of a sketch. Really if this holds true, then why havn't lemming invasions and spiked coffe yaoi action been introduced yet?

One should always know when to 'kill their darlings'. If it doesn't fit in the overall story, how cool it so may seem to be, it has to get the cut.

---

And once again it sounds like I'm in the wrong for something I dibbin does. |< *swish swish go away bad vibes plz*
Scrolling down and replying to everything that needs replying to. This post may or may not make any sense when you take it as a whole I make no guarentees

Silver, part of a confession time. (WITNESS TESTIMONY shut up brain)
My original plan for Matt was not for him to be a 'nice guy'.
If you're arsed enough to go look for my first post about him, there's nothing about that at all. Pretty much I was saying "Hey this guy's a loony. Now let's make him a loony THAT IS ALSO A MONSTA!!"
Then Bee brought up "What does Matt (not Repast) feel about Makoto? Does he care for her at all?"
Step 2: ???
Step 3: PROFIT!!

At its bluntest, Matt is a nice guy because it makes for interesting connections and plot.
I really like the whole Matt arc, but I admit that it does not do justice to his original character...at all. Bollocks.
I'll happilly listen to any suggestions but I'm pigheaded and so I might say 'no' because I'm a dork.

[And I assume that everyone who's working here has spoilt themselves for all of GS4. (Especially since our main character is from 4-4 which spoils the whole game) If you haven't do it now before I have to shove the spoilers up your nose okay]

...I do not consider the plushies (at the very least, The Chief) to be OCs as much as a huge easter-egg cameo of self-insertion. Because creators like to slip themselves into their creation. But yes they are 'original' so wtf am I saying.

@Mikker: ...What? Is there something wrong with planning in Paintchat?
Is it wrong to add anything cool we see and agree and take apart and put back together? Geez, this is a lawyer game turned superhero AU, are we not allowed to stretch and goof things up a bit?
[That piper whatever thing that appeared some time back (...unauthorized, as we had something else already set for Mr. Coffee) is a nice example of what happens when we haven't gone over something.]
We do not add things willy-nilly, sir. Believe it or don't, we actually - gasp! - rack our brains actually trying to make this all make sense! And not in a "'well i liak mah caharcter, ad her plz' 'ya shur ok we got spaiz rite hurr, letz shove everything asid fur u'" fashion.

...fuh.
Anyway, because I'm a little hazy on this: Have we decided Doburoku dies at all?
Before I run away and start assuming things again. _-_

Why?

That might seem like a dumb question, but why change the canon character's core personality? Now, yes, you do say that she'll try, meaning she might not succeed. But if she can't appreciate him for who he is, then why is she his sidekick? Let me put it this way. It's all right for canon characters to grow from their interactions with OCs, but the issue I have with the scenario you outlined is this. If Aiga changes, it will be because of Yuu's effort. That's an example of an OC "warping" a canon character. Now, if Aiga changed simply by having a person that understands him without effort on Yuu's part, that's really a different kettle of fish.

It's the difference between Maya saying "You're lazy, Nick! I'll MAKE you un-lazy!" and just by her being there pushing him to make cases. One is a character purposely going out to change another's personailty flaw, the other is having both of them learn and grow from their interactions. Yuu doesn't have to "fix" Aiga. If she's a good character and their interaction is compelling, then he'll change [a little bit] on his own. Kaminogi probably didn't stop being a jerk when he fell in love with Mia, but I'd imagine he stopped trolling rookie trials for ass--and not because she pointed out it was something he shouldn't be doing if he's dating her.

OCs should have a purpose and a goal, but that purpose shouldn't be utterly transparant to the reader, it makes them come off as flat. My personal rule of thumb is that no OC should be able to change a character, or even that it should be a "visible" goal. Because, like in real life change is organic and comes from within.



But that's still an entirely proactive reaction. What I mean is that Yuuki probably isn't going to be confident and outgoing to everyone she meets, nor will she always have good taste in who she likes. She's your OC, but it might be more interesting if there were some of the villians she liked, or maybe she wouldn't like many of the good guys. After all, she's connected to a person of dubious heroic quality.



Do they interact with the characters? From what I've seen, yes. Therefore they are OCs. An easter egg would be an unmoving plushie of your avatar that has nothing to do with the plot. There's nothing offensive about them being OCs.

And yes, creators do like to slip themselves in, but I think the Chief and Silver plushies have moved well beyond their original "lol cameo" roles.



Bingo. If something doesn't work, trim it until it does or cut it all together.

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Everyone here brings up valid points.

@Musouka: 1. What about characters that try a change... and fail/give up? Is that the same issue? [Shannon flips out because of Kiri's other side, but ultimately fails AND gives up trying to get rid of it.] 2. What about the CC changing the OC? [I probably really shouldn't be running away with these points, but...]

@Silver: Okay, I'll give you that. I think I interpreted Kiri a bit differently... however, SMako Kirihito seems to be different from his canon self. I can't quite put my finger on it- it's not that he's not nasty (that's what Sadistress is for), but probably that he seems to be a different type of nasty. It could also be that Sadistress is a rather comical concept (come on, a guy that turns into a dominatrix whose main running gag is having her boobs always too big for whatever she's wearing?) for a rather serious character, and this skews my interpretation a little. I'll admit that Shannon was really more of an experiment than anything else, and that I inserted a new dimension to Kirihito that wasn't there before/didn't need to be there. I find that there's an awful lot of "Why?" missing in my little story arc... the question you seem to be asking is, "Why does he love her?" The truth is, I've been trying to figure that out myself, and here's my (probably unsatisfactory/complete BS) answer: their relationship has a motif of absolution and balance. Shannon seems to suppress Kirihito's darker impulses, and he's grateful (?) for that. She's sort of his "comfort object," if you will. OMG I'M DIGGING MY OWN GRAVE

...Ugh, the more I look at this, the worse it looks. Is my idea actually even remotely salvageable? No, really, after looking at this business again and very closely I find I have a legitimate risk of being AXED. X_X

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Last edited by Sami-Fire on Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

Mu presents enough valid points to make me realize my total dumbass state. it's why I work at HD.

But yeah I agree. She doesn't have to change him, and she won't succeed; It's how she will grow as a person too, and maybe change a little bit herself. As far as liking any villains...she and Rocktra would be good buddies, but with someone like Apollo..obviously there would be some clashing there. But I don't want to predict who she will like and not like until there's solid interaction. For now she will remain neutral.

Just to clarify, no she and Aiga will not be in love right off. It probably sounded that way but it'll be the opposite, more like a leader/cohort relationship at first... Again their interactions and feelings I don't want to predict yet.

And let me thank you for actually reading my posts. I'm not sure if anyone else really does. n.n;

And Boss. If the plushies are OCs, so what? They're damn cute.
And I'll shush now that I've made a bigger idiot of myself.

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RE: musuoka

And I don't think Chief has overstepped its boundaries, personally. It serves well as a symbol of Adrian and Franziska's place in the scheme of things and their relationship to Makoto - it's the "mysterious locket" so to speak, a link to the past and a foreshadowing of the future.

RE: Boss

I suppose I ought to help clean up the mess I made, then, being Nice!Matt's original progenitor.
The entire basis of Matt's stint in Super Makoto is to provide competition, possibly foil for Takita and/or Makoto. Granted, to this extent he hasn't been developed as richly, and perhaps for the better since I'm certain now that people uninterested in this particular design will not want to work on it!
But let us consider the alternative - having Takita and Makoto being too obvious of a pairing would be boring at best, cliche at worst. If Matt, nice or mean, were clearly preordained to not be a viable interest for Makoto, then there's really nothing to test her bond with Takita on a day-to-day basis (unless, like my girlfriend, she has the bad habit of running into brain-drain zones... wait a second why is she staring over my shoulder).
So what to do with Mean!Matt (aka Normal!Matt)? If he was just using her for his own good press, it would be painfully obvious to Makoto and Takita. For example, showering her with expensive and fanciful gifts that don't quite make sense to the minimalist, sheltered artist. I suppose in that sense he could serve as a foil for Takita - Matt and his flying car versus Takita and his magic carpet. Not all of the world is worth exploring and adventuring in, little Makoto... GUARD YOUR CARNAL TREASURE!!!
That would all just make Matt a one-trick pony, though, and *poof* he's gone from the story, irredeemable as both Repast and a sociopathic movie star. Not exactly an interesting character, especially one that interacts so directly with the heroine. There needs to be complexity! Conflict! Drama! Panic! At the disco.
So in my eyes, going with the original Matt would be a devolution for the character, unless you want to have his facade much less obvious and paint him as a "supposedly" nice guy all throughout, nice enough to have Makoto's attentions, possibly Takita's trust, but off just enough that we can make him into a monster through-and-through (and I don't mean his transformation sequence). But that particular "death" of the "moral Matt" would leave a sour taste - why lead the audience on about this one character, with little or no evidence, and then twist their arm with it? Especially one that could become so dear and near to their hearts (as well as the protagonists?).

I call you "Boss," not "Mistress." But okay.


RE: Mikker
We in the Mafia have a saying: Gitouttahee. Save the ethical rants for the "Fanfic Writing FAQ" thread or what-have-you. If you got beef with anything in particular, bring it out and we can settle it in a civilized, creatively progressive fashion. *pats aluminum pen* We've always been promising to do our best in the balancing department, because as much as we like to have fun, we like to have something that works, but as has been iterated oh so many God damn times, poking us is not the way to go about it. We need suggestions and ideas, not criticism (save that for the finished work). Or backseat driving, for that matter.
And if you have any idea for a new venue for our creative conferences, please by all means direct us to it. Buy our God damn plane tickets. Rent out a convention center for us. You seem so God damn eager to help, I think you might actually do it!

*huff* I cracked a nail. *filefilefile*

RE: Sami-Fire
Absolution and balance? I was under the impression a lot of Shannon/Kirihito/Sadistress would be painted with shades of grey. The guy is basically asking her to accept that he goes out and whips innocent people for fun. If she's trying to save him from himself, good luck, sister... seen it happen with divorced couples and all that shite. Sure, he sequestered most of his bad feelings inside Sadistress, but on that same token giving his negative impulses a more permanent, physical manifestation could also be his way of giving in to them and letting them take shape. The point of the entire conflict with Shannon is that he likes being evil, and if there's any hope for their relationship she's going to have to - borrowing a phrase from the pairing debates - accept him warts and all.
Now, think. Just because they're in love doesn't mean they have to be good guys. And therein lies another aspect of the story: I Married A Supervillain! Tonight on Jerry Springer.

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Again, OC is not a dirty word. If it can interact with the cast and has an impact on the story beyond being a mere plushie, then it's a character not an object.



The issue with this is that as a sociopath, Matt is very good at manipulating people. You want "complexity! Conflict! Drama! Panic! At the disco"? You already have it. Takita and Makoto are relatively simple people that are especially vulnerable to the machinations of someone like Matt. There is plenty of drama in knowing that the main characters are being manipulated, but they don't know it. It's the bomb under the table scenario.

I mean, as far as romance goes, everyone pretty much agrees that it's going to be Takita and Makoto. Any "DRAMA" Matt could bring from that is shallow at best, because it's already been decided that he's not going to win her. Therefore he works better divorced from the romance and in a gen role.

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What if, like Minami in a sense, he is stuck in early on, when their "relationship" hasn't quite budded yet? Maybe that would work...

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Or we could do away with Matt and the OCs and apparently everything will be happier and better and no one would complain about everything.

If Matt switches to gen role I will hit someone until his replacement comes out. Because pairingdrama is something that makes the world go round and I would rather not let that little triangle they had going on go away. Made no sense on Matt's part, but man if it wasn't something that I wanted to see. (Beauty and the Beast loldono except Beauty goes and hooks up with Karateguy, wait what)

This sums up my current opinion in a nutshell.

I'm not saying you HAVE to have Matt taken out of the pairing drama, but I am saying his role can be more dramatic if you don't try to pretend that he's a viable love interest for Makoto. Again, I mentioned the "bomb under the table" techinique. ("Two men are seated at a table, having a conversation, and suddenly a bomb explodes. That’s shock. But, show the audience a ticking bomb under the table, and then proceed to have the characters engage in a five-minute conversation - That’s suspense.")

Matt ISN'T a viable love interest. He's not going to end up with Makoto. The drama you generate by "pretending" that he is will be shallow because of that. But by allowing him to be his evil self, you throw a wrench in the works, because now you won't know WHAT sort of impact he'll have on their relationship. If you set him up as "lol love interest" then you know that in the end Makoto and Takita will work it out no matter what happens. But if you do away with that pretense, he can wreck serious havok--yes, romantically.

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Urby, you know I adore you, but there's no need to get so defensive. Not everybody is bound to agree on certain aspects of what you have--this is a group project, after all, and you have a bunch of different opinions all contributing to make it awesome. Sometimes, there needs to be dissent. The people discussing it here are trying to do so with the project's best interest at heart.

People want the OCs, some people want Nice!Matt. Others don't. There's no solution to make everybody 100% happy, especially not on either extreme. While having complaining and arguing can be stressful for a project leader... just saying "let's not argue" and trying to smooth it over doesn't help.

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So if I'm interpreting this correctly: You're saying that Matt could do something like he did in the actual game with the manipulation Celeste thing, in which he doesn't actually care but just wants to mess with some heads?
I see that working.

Funk - Sarcasm, dearheart, sarcasm.
Then again I'm not sure if any part of that bit is heartfully meant anymore. All of this is getting really frustrating.
Things are getting better now though, now that the people who are bringing up problems are also offering valid solutions.

'Stressful for project leader' - ahah you got that right i dont have a clue how i keep going

Right.

I mean, it's MATT. The most manipultive character in the game. I agree that if he just went all out and gave Makoto gifts, she and Takita would be suspicious. But he's smart, he wouldn't do that. He'd start small, make her believe he cared.

That, to me, actually gives Makoto a good character flaw. She's shy, she would want to believe in his goodness. And if she can't bring herself to kill him when he's ACTUALLY a monster, because she still wants to cling to that goodness she knows isn't real but sort of wants to believe in anyway? I think that's powerful, and a good, beleiveable character flaw for her.

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Eep, sorry for not posting guys, I've been on vacation for a few days and had limited internet.
Let's see what we got...



THAT. That is what I have been thinking all along. Sorry if I didn't make that clearer.
Matt's a sociopath, yes, but he doesn't have to spend all his time ACTING like a sociopath. He's a professional actor, for jeebus' sake, and very cunning. We can make him cunning, sly, and have Makoto think that he's really a good guy worth salvaging and therefore continually spare Repast--and then he can turn on her at a critical moment and drama. I think there's plenty of opportunity for drama, characterization, and depth in this idea, far more than the dull picture you painted--sorry if that's how you've been interpreting what I wanted. I just realized I've been bad-mouthing good!Matt without saying what my plans were for evil!Matt. Sorry again.
Anyway, as for making Matt an interesting, cunning villain...well, I'm going to use visuals here because I'm lame:
It's the difference between this and this.
It's situational. The first one is Matt dealing with a pesky lawyer in jail. It's insincere, and it's cheesy and fake. The second is much more natural-looking: We seem him getting his way with a woman. That's how I picture him in Super Makoto. There's no reason he can't be smart enough to get Makoto painting supplies instead of random, impersonal expensive things as you said.
Personally, I find the idea of making him a cunning betrayer more interesting as well as canon than him being good and redeemed. He still provides competition for Takita because Makoto is sheltered and naive and he's smart and devious enough to treat her how she wants--sure, we mostly know that "Oh, we're obviously having a happy ending and Makoto will beat the bad guys and Takita will nab her and blah," but if we make Matt's inclusion convincing enough, there should still be suspense nevertheless. It's not a matter of "WILL MAKOTO AND MATT RULE FAIRY TALE LAND FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER?!/1/" it's a matter of Makoto and Takita being pulled in by Matt--and if he pulls them in successfully, he can get whatever he wants. And that can yes, include romance or termination of current romances.

Really, not only would Evil!Matt be better for his OWN characterization than Nice!Matt, it would be better for MAKOTO'S as well, along with Takita. As Funk said, Makoto's believing in Matt's goodness can be a character flaw, and we know that Takita's already fallen for Minami so he can be pulled in by a sadistic manipulator again. It might even end up with him drawing parallels between Minami and Matt and starting to doubt everyone--including Makoto, and that would just give you all SORTS of pairing drama.

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I'm just going to stay out of whatever debate is going on, because I'm worried that anything I could say would be more vitriolic than the situation requires (not to mention it would probably get me FRIKKEN KILLED ><). After all, it's better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt (oops, too late). [/proverb]

Are we bouncing around Matt's position in the twisted love triangle? I have to say I like the idea of him being Makoto's first "love burn," if that makes any sense- he pulled her in and then hurt her somehow. Her naivete just makes the situation work even more.

RE: MSOB
She eventually does accept him, proverbial warts and all. I was figuring out her reasons for her reaction and reconciliation in this piece of copypasta:

Um... yeah. Yuck. It's horrible, I know, and you can see where I got bored and started making fun of myself. But I hope that comes close to a justification... (And here's something random... Shannon's got a twisted sense of humor that she's apparently in denial of. After (or maybe even before) they reconcile, she LAUGHS whenever Sadi enters "loose cannon mode" and starts doing wacky stuff like chasing Apollo all over the place.)

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Mu's statement tickles me greatly for some reason.
Such that -


About the Matt biz: Now we're getting somewhere. This is brilliant, mes chéries.

...While we're at it, is there anything else that's bothering anyone presentationwise? We've fixed Makoto and Matt. Does anyone else need a tweak?

ROFL, Boss.

Well, I have to agree with you all now. Being bad is good for Matt.

Sami-Fire, I'm currently under the impression that Shannon and Kirihito have a somewhat one-sided relationship. As much as she might love Kirihito and hate Sadistress, they both love her... for different reasons. Kirihito might have the same start-a-family impulse any normal human behing has, but he may also want to perpetuate his negative impulses as well, and thus Sadistress, not seeing Shannon as a threat but now as a viable supporter and even guardian... Are you fine with Kirihito being a manipulative sociopath? Because that's basically what he's doing with Shannon. "I will do as I please, woman, now get down on your knees and WORSHIP MY COCK."

. . .

Yeah, see you guys soon.

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...Excuse me while I fall over laughing.

Now that that's out of the way, what do you mean by "perpetuate his negative impulses?" You trailed off when it seemed like you were going to explain. Or do I even want to know?

*sigh* Chalk it up to my inner hopeless romantic (I HAVE one of those?!), but I'd like to say it's not like WORSHIP MY CIGARO (XD) [/badeuphemism]. (Upon looking things over, it DOES seem that's all he's using her for...) There's got to be something that exists on Kiri's side too, or the following would happen: 1. There's no way in hell he'd take her back after what she did. 2. Sadi would probably have killed Shannon both for leaving Kirihito (not her main motive, but they DO share important pieces of conscience[?]) AND for making an attempt on her/their lives. I don't quite know what that "something" is, so until I figure out a better something I'll go the route I originally suggested. Earlier, I said that Shannon is sort of like Kirihito's "comfort object." She keeps him (slightly) stable. Of course, Sadi isn't ever completely surpressed, but any port in a storm... Granted, Kiri may like being evil, but I bet Sadi sometimes gets a little too out of control, even for Kiri- and that's where Shan may come in. And just for clarification [/nitpick], Shannon and Sadi DO sort of become friends after a bit. What can I say, it's kind of hard NOT to laugh at Sadi for some reason (maybe the fact that she's so... exaggerated?).

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I don't know much about Shannon, but for the solution to problem #2 of why Sadi hasn't killed her, you can go back to that Sadistic tendency of Sadi loving seeing her squeal. I don't think she has to LIKE her to enjoy having her around being angry at Sadi.

...And what you just said about them being friends made me giggle insanely for some reason because of what you said earlier about Shannon having a sadistic streak for some reason gave me this mental image of them watching old horror movies and stuff together and palling around. "LOL LOOK SHANNON THAT GUY GOT RUN THROUGH BY A ZOMBIE LOLOL 8DDD" "LOL I KNOW SADI PASS THE POPCORN 8DDD" >.>; *slap'd*

...But yeah. No real contributions from me at the moment >>;

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Shannon doesn't have a sadistic streak, she has a twisted sense of humor >> But that scene = roffle. She would probably do that, too. XD

Okay, so that's one reason Sadi didn't kill Shannon. Makes sense enough, but the dialogue I have planned for that scene may say a little otherwise...


YOU LIKEY MY HALF-BAKED IDEAVOMIT? :D

Wait, maybe that doesn't give evidence to any motive at all. Buggaboo...
EDIT: BLEURGH this actually gives evidence to the motive Silver suggested. Oh well, it works. :D
Oh, and before I forget, I'm gonna do a rulebend and say Sadi sometimes overrides the "negative impulse" requirement for situations like these. What can I say, she IS a DOMINATING personality... XP

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Nothing much to say except roffle my waffles at you all (aka keep going as I have no input)

Have a picture because Silver's comment was too funny to ignore.

Sadistress and Kirihito are still a work in progress, so I'm fairly confident that someone, somewhere, has a good idea of what to do with that direction...

In the meantime, I'm curious as to just how far Matt will get into Makoto's heart. Will there be a short period where Makoto's actions become less-than-honorable on his behalf, maybe? And this could just be in non-super situations, too.
Actually, now that Matt is bad, we can have him show Makoto the less desirable bits of life. Whereas her date with Takita is a weekday afternoon sipping pop and fishing in the park, a date with Matt would be some scary, strobe-light party with people consuming questionable beverages with questionable "additives" and omg these are not really happy people please take me somewhere safe Matt oh I like this room wait what are you doing that feels good no wait its bad its good its bad its bad get offa me I wanna go home now ;__;

And Takita brings out the aluminum bat and his Yakuza buds. Then Dee Vasquez and her thugs show up to protect their "investment." And Takita gets SHOT IN THE HEART. AGAIN.

Insert whole angsty episode about Makoto taking the blame because she let Matt into her overalls and Takita being like "Damn it, I told you he was bad news" and etc etc

AND THATS HOW GS5 DEALS WITH THE ISSUE OF RAPE, CHILDREN.

*disappear*

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