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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?Topic%20Title
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Thane wrote:
I feel like I must ask, but why do you love the third case so much? It's good, don't get me wrong, but I found the friendship speeches insufferable and the ending to be highly anticlimatic, save for the revelation of Apollo's sexual preferences.

...I liked those...

Why do I always hear about people hating what I liked...
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Sligneris wrote:
Thane wrote:
I feel like I must ask, but why do you love the third case so much? It's good, don't get me wrong, but I found the friendship speeches insufferable and the ending to be highly anticlimatic, save for the revelation of Apollo's sexual preferences.

...I liked those...

Why do I always hear about people hating what I liked...


Don't worry man you ain't alone, I found it perfectly enjoyable as it was. The villain's transformation and behaviour I found utterly hilarious in the finale. The friendship speeches were a bit much but hey I don't hate them entirely.
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Pierre wrote:
Sligneris wrote:
Thane wrote:
I feel like I must ask, but why do you love the third case so much? It's good, don't get me wrong, but I found the friendship speeches insufferable and the ending to be highly anticlimatic, save for the revelation of Apollo's sexual preferences.

...I liked those...

Why do I always hear about people hating what I liked...


Don't worry man you ain't alone, I found it perfectly enjoyable as it was. The villain's transformation and behaviour I found utterly hilarious in the finale. The friendship speeches were a bit much but hey I don't hate them entirely.

All this talk about friendship reminds me of this.
"Oh holy father, holy Brother, holy master... My sacred mission is at last complete. With these two hands, mankind is saved. I am your will made flesh. In your name, I give thanks."
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BonnyMono wrote:
All this talk about friendship reminds me of this.


Not bad! However, this is a more accurate representation of how I felt.
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No, no, you're ALL mistaken, case three is meant to illustrate that "My friends are my power!"
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Cravat of Doom wrote:
Scent wrote:
Hahaha! I concur, he needs to play the rest of the game. Also, if the opportunity rises, get the DLC case BEFORE playing the last case, it'll make much more sense.


( "She" :basil: ) Ooh, I'm intrigued now.

And thanks for mentioning when to play the DLC! I was really, really curious about when to play it.

The DLC case takes place between case 2 and 3, so it's better to play it then, I think.
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Jozerick wrote:
Cravat of Doom wrote:
Scent wrote:
Hahaha! I concur, he needs to play the rest of the game. Also, if the opportunity rises, get the DLC case BEFORE playing the last case, it'll make much more sense.


( "She" :basil: ) Ooh, I'm intrigued now.

And thanks for mentioning when to play the DLC! I was really, really curious about when to play it.

The DLC case takes place between case 2 and 3, so it's better to play it then, I think.

Yep, after all, it's Phoenix *first* case after recuperating his badge.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?Topic%20Title
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Uh.... I hate spoilers so greatly. I must say, I somewhat enjoyed the first 4 cases, despite being spoiled. And then Blackquill came to the stand and that feeling was just... gone. I just passively read over the text, barely feeling anything. ._.
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Sligneris wrote:
Uh.... I hate spoilers so greatly. I must say, I somewhat enjoyed the first 4 cases, despite being spoiled. And then Blackquill came to the stand and that feeling was just... gone. I just passively read over the text, barely feeling anything. ._.

Luckily, the only thing I spoiled was who the Phantom was.
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Whoa, that's a pretty big thing to be "only" spoiled about....
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Sligneris wrote:
Whoa, that's a pretty big thing to be "only" spoiled about....


Yeah man I'd have flipped out if I'd found that out. Hell if it wasn't tagged properly I'd have reported the spoiling individual.
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Scent wrote:
Sligneris wrote:
Uh.... I hate spoilers so greatly. I must say, I somewhat enjoyed the first 4 cases, despite being spoiled. And then Blackquill came to the stand and that feeling was just... gone. I just passively read over the text, barely feeling anything. ._.

Luckily, the only thing I spoiled was who the Phantom was.

Pfff, I was spoiled on every case's murderer. (Except the DLC one.)
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BonnyMono wrote:
Scent wrote:
Sligneris wrote:
Uh.... I hate spoilers so greatly. I must say, I somewhat enjoyed the first 4 cases, despite being spoiled. And then Blackquill came to the stand and that feeling was just... gone. I just passively read over the text, barely feeling anything. ._.

Luckily, the only thing I spoiled was who the Phantom was.

Pfff, I was spoiled on every case's murderer. (Except the DLC one.)

I was only spoiled the murderer for the last two cases (which is the same one). Funny, I wasn't spoiled as to whom case two's murderer was (which is blatantly obvious).
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And that's why I stayed away from this site and almost everything Ace-Attorney-related as soon as information on the second case started appearing. No spoilers for me.
Or course the drawback is that I was cut away from any news as well, and it was getting frustrating...
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Jozerick wrote:
And that's why I stayed away from this site and almost everything Ace-Attorney-related as soon as information on the second case started appearing. No spoilers for me.
Or course the drawback is that I was cut away from any news as well, and it was getting frustrating...

Specially how nowadays video game companies like to release a little too much about the story and who's appearing on it when magazine companies release scans.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?Topic%20Title

Was the 1th game I played... and it was so nice! :redd:
I played the other ones because it was my friend who recommened it and I liked them so much but DD is my fav cuz I played it first even though I can see why the others are more fun cuzthey are older? :D
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sjaak wrote:
Was the 1th game I played... and it was so nice! :redd:
I played the other ones because it was my friend who recommened it and I liked them so much but DD is my fav cuz I played it first even though I can see why the others are more fun cuzthey are older? :D

Well, the others are more fun because of the length and the difficulty. Dual Destinies had 25h of gameplay and the difficulty decreased in a major way.
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sjaak wrote:
Was the 1th game I played... and it was so nice! :redd:
I played the other ones because it was my friend who recommened it and I liked them so much but DD is my fav cuz I played it first even though I can see why the others are more fun cuzthey are older? :D


I may not speak for everyone here, but I enjoyed the first games because they were more involving, and the way the story was told was just more appealing to me. The murder cases were also, for the lack of a better term, more clever; I simply cannot shake the feeling that the current team tries way too hard but misses the classic charm. It sort of reminds me of this:

Spoiler:
Image


It also helped that we didn't have a thoroughly dislikeable character shoved down our throats in an attempt to convince us that she was the best thing since sliced bread, but that's a debate for another thread.
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Huh? What? Say what you want about mysteries, writing and story, but the characters in DD are, like, some of the best from the whole franchise..
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Sligneris wrote:
Huh? What? Say what you want about mysteries, writing and story, but the characters in DD are, like, some of the best from the whole franchise..

Like some people, I didn't like Athena too much (not that's it's gotten to the point where I dislike her) but I thought the side characters were pretty nice. Not the BEST, but they were good. Memorable, at least, for some.
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DragonCactus wrote:
Sligneris wrote:
Huh? What? Say what you want about mysteries, writing and story, but the characters in DD are, like, some of the best from the whole franchise..

Like some people, I didn't like Athena too much (not that's it's gotten to the point where I dislike her) but I thought the side characters were pretty nice. Not the BEST, but they were good. Memorable, at least, for some.

Lies. No one bests Captain Segway. Not after the Battleship Yamato reference.
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Uh, Athena disputes again?

Image

Do people keep hating on her, for the sake of hating her and complaining? I played the game. The character was enjoyable. But no, people demand absolute logic from Japanese game, with making remarks about Widget and her study and complaining how the freshly introduced protagonist is in the center of attention. (Maybe that's because protagonists usually are supposed to be just that? Ever thought of that?)

F*ck it, I'm out.


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Sligneris wrote:
Uh, Athena disputes again?

Do people keep hating on her, for the sake of hating her and complaining? I played the game. The character was enjoyable. But no, people demand absolute logic from Japanese game. F*ck it, I'm out.

Hey, people can have their opinions. "The character was enjoyable" is not a fact.
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It makes no sense, when we have more hate on Athena than on Armstrong, Brushel, Meekins or Oldbag.
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Sligneris wrote:
Uh, Athena disputes again?

Image

Do people keep hating on her, for the sake of hating her and complaining? I played the game. The character was enjoyable. But no, people demand absolute logic from Japanese game, with making remarks about Widget and her study and complaining how the freshly introduced protagonist is in the center of attention. (Maybe that's because protagonists usually are supposed to be just that? Ever thought of that?)

F*ck it, I'm out.


I think its stupid that someone can hate on Athena when In my opinion she was the most useful woman in any AA series besides of course Mia :mia-maya:.
Spoiler: Athena Power!
Athena's analytical psychology helped Wright catch a lot of the murderers on each case
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The main argument of Athena haters was that she was too skilled and useful. I think these were:

"She could do too much and too well"
"There was too much of her"

...And all that Mary Sue nonsense.
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Sligneris wrote:
The main argument of Athena haters was that she was too skilled and useful. I think these were:

"She could do too much and too well"
"There was too much of her"

...And all that Mary Sue nonsense.


I guess being too good is bad? :grey: Plus DD was basically Athena's storyline so of course it would make sense she would show up alot more. Apollo already had his own game so of course he wouldn't show up too much but just enough.
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I will keep saying that Dual Destinies momentarily brushed aside some of the plot points introduced in Apollo Justice just for the sake of introducing a more diverse group of characters just as an useful and juvenile assistant (Athena), a Larry Butz-like client (Juniper Woods), a samurai-esque prosecutor (Simon Blackquill) and expand on some other things. This is the sole reason why Dual Destinies focuses on Athena and Blackquill: they're the protagonists of this game. This is another Apollo Justice: you play as a character, but the story is centered on other ones.
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Scent wrote:
I will keep saying that Dual Destinies momentarily brushed aside some of the plot points introduced in Apollo Justice just for the sake of introducing a more diverse group of characters just as an useful and juvenile assistant (Athena), a Larry Butz-like client (Juniper Woods), a samurai-esque prosecutor (Simon Blackquill) and expand on some other things. This is the sole reason why Dual Destinies focuses on Athena and Blackquill: they're the protagonists of this game. This is another Apollo Justice: you play as a character, but the story is centered on other ones.


There was never a samurai-esque prosecutor in Apollo Justice, Athena is more of the young adult assistant who's quirky and Juniper is no where near like Larry Butzs in my opinion.
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Dual Destinies brushed of a lot of the plot points of Apollo Justice and of original trilogy, but let me remind you Apollo Justice brushed off ALL of the plot of its predecessor. In Apollo Justice you played only as a new character with having the previous one ruined. On these matters, we can all agree Dual Destinies was better from Apollo Justice.
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Fool Bright wrote:
There was never a samurai-esque prosecutor in Apollo Justice,

Never said that.

Fool Bright wrote:
Athena is more of the young adult assistant who's quirky

Part of what I said.

Fool Bright wrote:
and Juniper is no where near like Larry Butzs in my opinion.

They both get in trouble and in reality are innocent.

Sligneris wrote:
but let me remind you Apollo Justice brushed off ALL of the plot of its predecessor.

So? GS4 was meant to be a separate arc, another story. The disbarred lawyer was originally an original character, but Shu Takumi realized Phoenix Wright was the icon of the series, so he decided to re-introduce Nick to this new saga as the disbarred lawyer.
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...So, what is wrong with having a new story, with new characters in the spotlight, but having old ones reappear and play some role in it and in addition being further developed plus some of them being important in it?
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Fool Bright wrote:
Athena is more of the young adult assistant who's quirky

Scent wrote:
Part of what I said.

She's more quirky than juvenile. Juvenile is a young person, whilst quirky would be someone's unexpected traits. She is young so I see why you'd say she's juvenile, but I'm talking about her personality traits.

Fool Bright wrote:
and Juniper is no where near like Larry Butzs in my opinion.

Scent wrote:
They both get in trouble and in reality are innocent.

Personality wise they are way far apart and just because they both get in trouble but are innocent really doesn't make them the same.
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Scent wrote:
Sligneris wrote:
but let me remind you Apollo Justice brushed off ALL of the plot of its predecessor.

So? GS4 was meant to be a separate arc, another story. The disbarred lawyer was originally an original character, but Shu Takumi realized Phoenix Wright was the icon of the series, so he decided to re-introduce Nick to this new saga as the disbarred lawyer.

You mean Takeshi Yamazaki. Takumi didn't expect to have Nick back in the story. If he had written GS5, he likely would have kept Apollo as the main character.

Then again, GS4 left too many open ends to be a one-shot. How that man even considered GS4 complete, I can only surmise that he expected we fans wouldn't bother with this other character called "Apollo Justice". It turns out that he's as much of a star as Phoenix Wright is now.

Sligneris wrote:
...So, what is wrong with having a new story, with new characters in the spotlight, but having old ones reappear and play some role in it and in addition being further developed plus some of them being important in it?

Butthurt fans.
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In defense of the people who said this game felt less realistic, which I feel is totally justified:
Spoiler: all not AAI2 games because I'm too lazy to divide this up and identify spoilers
AA1 is IMO the best game of the series, simply because, not only is it realistic and grounded, but because it is tight. Its very hard to find something which happened in the game where a character's actions or motivation feels odd or forced, something very difficult to achieve in a mystery style game. However, AA1 is also the most grounded in reality. The only fantastic element is the spirit channeling, and besides the DL-6 stuff, where it was really only important because of how it effected the Feys and possibly Yani (its been awhile), it never really impacts the events the game deals with in the courtrooms. This is because the spirit channeling serves a purpose, and that purpose is to give Phoenix a mentor character to talk to, who knew more than he did and could help him out (to a diminishing degree because she was actually the victim and therefore intimately involved in the first case). This is because, in a classic detective piece, there needs to be a detective and sidekick. The sidekick (Maya here) needs to be a little less aware than the detective, so that we can learn of the pertinent facts without being told the correct solution to the mystery, from the genius detective's eyes. But since Phoenix is supposed to be the genius detective, and we're phoenix, we need a third character who's better than us to help us out sometimes. The whole spirit medium thing really just let's them keep Mia around to act as mentor to Phoenix.

The later games start to become increasingly "unhinged" as they go, with more and more fantastical elements being introduced. For the earlier games, it was for a purpose: although JFA introduces spirit channeling mattering to a small degree in a case, its an excuse to make maya the defendant, which accomplishes a number of goals, from giving a good setting to explore maya's back story for new players, and to introduce the magatama, which fills a vital role. The magatama makes investigations more interesting by shorting the time between solving puzzles and gathering information, something the first game suffered from. Although I think this was handled best in AAI, the magatama really did a good job of this as well. Still, the magatama never features in court, and has a clear purpose to fill in making investigations more interesting, though it suffers from making them harder and less clear. JFA introduces our first prosecutor gimmick: franzy uses a whip. I don't really have much of a problem with this, because its a little silly, but doesn't really dominate her personality or define her. Its just a quirk that she features, so its endearing.

T and T is very similar to JFA. Its the only game thus far where nothing major has been added or removed. T and T introduces the awesome godot, who also has a non-defining gimmick: godot drinks coffee, but godot isn't just a prosecutor who drinks coffee, Godot is still primarily a prosecutor, who just happens to have a quirk where he drinks lots of coffee.

AJ is where things really started to fly off the rails. Because the magatama was linked to phoenix, and probably because it was making investigations complicated it was removed. But then they took it a step further, which was weird, rather than trying to solve a problem, Apollo was given a gimmick, for the sake of having a gimmick And that's where, in my mind, you're supposed to draw the line: gimmicks are fun, but its better when there's underlying character, and major gameplay elements should not be introduced for the sake of giving characters gimmicks. Still Apollo's gimmick was worked in believably, his harassment of witnesses could be explained in universe by just him vaguely mentioning something, then presenting evidence or something else (in the case of Kristoph, exploiting the jury system), to properly establish what he was saying with evidence. However, the thing AJ does that I find more problematic for the realism, is it introduces the first gimmick dominated prosecutor. Klavier may have his fans, but his rockstar status is part of his persona, rather than a quirk about him.

And so now we're at DD, and we've added another lawyer. Athena's whole mood matrix thing feels like a gimmick for the sake of having a gimmick again, and also bothers me because I feel that its not really justified in the story.
Frankly, Manfred Von Karma would have eaten Athena and her mood matrix alive, and tied up several of the DD cases with a guilty verdict in a few minutes. I could maybe see Apollo's perceptions making it past MVK, but not Athena's analtic psych, and that really bothers me. Why isn't Blackquill complaining about this obvious badgering of the witness, and vague speculations about why the witness feels the way they do? MVK would complain that this is all a pointless charade to be thrown out immediately, and the trial ended! And on the subject of Blackquill, we now have a prosecutor who is a samurai, and a criminal, once again this being the dominating feature of his persona.

Finally, the DD cases also have unbelievably convoluted setups for convolution's sake. I can now ask, "why did you do that?" about character's actions, and the only response seems to be, "because it would make the murderer even HARDER to find, because I added yet another level of fabrication, with no regard to risk:reward cost of doing so!" The actions no longer seem as tight or as well grounded.

tl;dr: MVK would've pwned Athena and her mood matrix in court. Major characters, esp. prosecutors, now seem defined by quirks rather than merely possessing them. Fantastical elements used to serve a purpose to make the game play of working through the case interesting, but now seem added for the sake of having them, and they are more critical to figuring out the case and thus the immersion breaking is greater.


All this isn't to say I didn't enjoy DD, I just enjoyed AA1 more, and feel people complaining about the game feeling less realistic are justified.
(Also, I'd like to point out that I don't dislike Athena, by the end of the game, I felt like she fit in with the rest of the Anything Agency gang.)
I still enjoyed the game and would like to play more, too bad the other DLC case isn't being released in NA. Darn capcom seems always to be holding out on us.
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magnus_orion wrote:
In defense of the people who said this game felt less realistic, which I feel is totally justified:
Spoiler: all not AAI2 games because I'm too lazy to divide this up and identify spoilers
AA1 is IMO the best game of the series, simply because, not only is it realistic and grounded, but because it is tight. Its very hard to find something which happened in the game where a character's actions or motivation feels odd or forced, something very difficult to achieve in a mystery style game. However, AA1 is also the most grounded in reality. The only fantastic element is the spirit channeling, and besides the DL-6 stuff, where it was really only important because of how it effected the Feys and possibly Yani (its been awhile), it never really impacts the events the game deals with in the courtrooms. This is because the spirit channeling serves a purpose, and that purpose is to give Phoenix a mentor character to talk to, who knew more than he did and could help him out (to a diminishing degree because she was actually the victim and therefore intimately involved in the first case). This is because, in a classic detective piece, there needs to be a detective and sidekick. The sidekick (Maya here) needs to be a little less aware than the detective, so that we can learn of the pertinent facts without being told the correct solution to the mystery, from the genius detective's eyes. But since Phoenix is supposed to be the genius detective, and we're phoenix, we need a third character who's better than us to help us out sometimes. The whole spirit medium thing really just let's them keep Mia around to act as mentor to Phoenix.

The later games start to become increasingly "unhinged" as they go, with more and more fantastical elements being introduced. For the earlier games, it was for a purpose: although JFA introduces spirit channeling mattering to a small degree in a case, its an excuse to make maya the defendant, which accomplishes a number of goals, from giving a good setting to explore maya's back story for new players, and to introduce the magatama, which fills a vital role. The magatama makes investigations more interesting by shorting the time between solving puzzles and gathering information, something the first game suffered from. Although I think this was handled best in AAI, the magatama really did a good job of this as well. Still, the magatama never features in court, and has a clear purpose to fill in making investigations more interesting, though it suffers from making them harder and less clear. JFA introduces our first prosecutor gimmick: franzy uses a whip. I don't really have much of a problem with this, because its a little silly, but doesn't really dominate her personality or define her. Its just a quirk that she features, so its endearing.

T and T is very similar to JFA. Its the only game thus far where nothing major has been added or removed. T and T introduces the awesome godot, who also has a non-defining gimmick: godot drinks coffee, but godot isn't just a prosecutor who drinks coffee, Godot is still primarily a prosecutor, who just happens to have a quirk where he drinks lots of coffee.

AJ is where things really started to fly off the rails. Because the magatama was linked to phoenix, and probably because it was making investigations complicated it was removed. But then they took it a step further, which was weird, rather than trying to solve a problem, Apollo was given a gimmick, for the sake of having a gimmick And that's where, in my mind, you're supposed to draw the line: gimmicks are fun, but its better when there's underlying character, and major gameplay elements should not be introduced for the sake of giving characters gimmicks. Still Apollo's gimmick was worked in believably, his harassment of witnesses could be explained in universe by just him vaguely mentioning something, then presenting evidence or something else (in the case of Kristoph, exploiting the jury system), to properly establish what he was saying with evidence. However, the thing AJ does that I find more problematic for the realism, is it introduces the first gimmick dominated prosecutor. Klavier may have his fans, but his rockstar status is part of his persona, rather than a quirk about him.

And so now we're at DD, and we've added another lawyer. Athena's whole mood matrix thing feels like a gimmick for the sake of having a gimmick again, and also bothers me because I feel that its not really justified in the story.
Frankly, Manfred Von Karma would have eaten Athena and her mood matrix alive, and tied up several of the DD cases with a guilty verdict in a few minutes. I could maybe see Apollo's perceptions making it past MVK, but not Athena's analtic psych, and that really bothers me. Why isn't Blackquill complaining about this obvious badgering of the witness, and vague speculations about why the witness feels the way they do? MVK would complain that this is all a pointless charade to be thrown out immediately, and the trial ended! And on the subject of Blackquill, we now have a prosecutor who is a samurai, and a criminal, once again this being the dominating feature of his persona.

Finally, the DD cases also have unbelievably convoluted setups for convolution's sake. I can now ask, "why did you do that?" about character's actions, and the only response seems to be, "because it would make the murderer even HARDER to find, because I added yet another level of fabrication, with no regard to risk:reward cost of doing so!" The actions no longer seem as tight or as well grounded.

tl;dr: MVK would've pwned Athena and her mood matrix in court. Major characters, esp. prosecutors, now seem defined by quirks rather than merely possessing them. Fantastical elements used to serve a purpose to make the game play of working through the case interesting, but now seem added for the sake of having them, and they are more critical to figuring out the case and thus the immersion breaking is greater.


All this isn't to say I didn't enjoy DD, I just enjoyed AA1 more, and feel people complaining about the game feeling less realistic are justified.
(Also, I'd like to point out that I don't dislike Athena, by the end of the game, I felt like she fit in with the rest of the Anything Agency gang.)
I still enjoyed the game and would like to play more, too bad the other DLC case isn't being released in NA. Darn capcom seems always to be holding out on us.


What an excellent first post, I agree with everything you said (except that bit about AAI, but that's besides the point). Please post more in this forum ~

The Mood Matrix really made me roll my eyes at times. It seemed quite forced and while I really did enjoy the animations for the Mood Matrix and would like to see more of that type of stylistic innovation, it was totally unrealistic. The perceive tool was pushing it, but it never felt invasive and I think it straddled the line of realism. Any farther would be and is a mistake.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?Topic%20Title
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My opinion is opposite. Please recall the situations in which Mood Matrix was used. It was not a tool to prove anything. It's when witnesses are confused, claiming impossible things, not being able to give proper testimony... That is not beneficial to any side.

Perceiving is... "You hid something, because your hand twitched!"... Yeah. They made a good decision to get it out of the courtroom.

...Plus, I shall post something I've written elsewhere.

Spoiler:
Was it just me or was the last case after recess badly handled? I did not feel in mood of taking down the phantom, I actually felt just weird. We had everyone ganged up against Fulbright and even though he was still a villain not worth much of our sympathy... it just did not feel like there was a fair trial actually handled there.

When we progressed, I felt it wasn't our progress at all. It was just the phantom screwing up his facade for no apparent reason other than having storyline pushed forward

"How can you say that? It's obvious he's the phantom!"... Was it really? His story was believable and it would be, had he not suddenly made that serious face. Plus, this line should have never gotten out from the mouth of experienced lawyer...

Speaking of experience, let's return to the earlier part of the trial, the one regarding UR-1. I had read some comments on how Phoenix was more nervous during that trial than when he was a rookie that had no idea what he was doing and I can't help but agree. I'm not sure if it's exactly that experience with Edgeworth that made him like that?...

I can't also get my head around the way perceiving and mood matrix are used in this last case. Again, it's basing claims on nervous ticks and emotions, rather than on evidence. It was fine in the earlier cases, when we had perceiving used during investigations, where we do not evidence to have people answer honestly, or during trials with Athena where we had witnesses genuinely confused, unable to give proper testimony, overwhelmed by emotions.

Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?Topic%20Title
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Cravat of Doom wrote:
magnus_orion wrote:
In defense of the people who said this game felt less realistic, which I feel is totally justified:
Spoiler: all not AAI2 games because I'm too lazy to divide this up and identify spoilers
AA1 is IMO the best game of the series, simply because, not only is it realistic and grounded, but because it is tight. Its very hard to find something which happened in the game where a character's actions or motivation feels odd or forced, something very difficult to achieve in a mystery style game. However, AA1 is also the most grounded in reality. The only fantastic element is the spirit channeling, and besides the DL-6 stuff, where it was really only important because of how it effected the Feys and possibly Yani (its been awhile), it never really impacts the events the game deals with in the courtrooms. This is because the spirit channeling serves a purpose, and that purpose is to give Phoenix a mentor character to talk to, who knew more than he did and could help him out (to a diminishing degree because she was actually the victim and therefore intimately involved in the first case). This is because, in a classic detective piece, there needs to be a detective and sidekick. The sidekick (Maya here) needs to be a little less aware than the detective, so that we can learn of the pertinent facts without being told the correct solution to the mystery, from the genius detective's eyes. But since Phoenix is supposed to be the genius detective, and we're phoenix, we need a third character who's better than us to help us out sometimes. The whole spirit medium thing really just let's them keep Mia around to act as mentor to Phoenix.

The later games start to become increasingly "unhinged" as they go, with more and more fantastical elements being introduced. For the earlier games, it was for a purpose: although JFA introduces spirit channeling mattering to a small degree in a case, its an excuse to make maya the defendant, which accomplishes a number of goals, from giving a good setting to explore maya's back story for new players, and to introduce the magatama, which fills a vital role. The magatama makes investigations more interesting by shorting the time between solving puzzles and gathering information, something the first game suffered from. Although I think this was handled best in AAI, the magatama really did a good job of this as well. Still, the magatama never features in court, and has a clear purpose to fill in making investigations more interesting, though it suffers from making them harder and less clear. JFA introduces our first prosecutor gimmick: franzy uses a whip. I don't really have much of a problem with this, because its a little silly, but doesn't really dominate her personality or define her. Its just a quirk that she features, so its endearing.

T and T is very similar to JFA. Its the only game thus far where nothing major has been added or removed. T and T introduces the awesome godot, who also has a non-defining gimmick: godot drinks coffee, but godot isn't just a prosecutor who drinks coffee, Godot is still primarily a prosecutor, who just happens to have a quirk where he drinks lots of coffee.

AJ is where things really started to fly off the rails. Because the magatama was linked to phoenix, and probably because it was making investigations complicated it was removed. But then they took it a step further, which was weird, rather than trying to solve a problem, Apollo was given a gimmick, for the sake of having a gimmick And that's where, in my mind, you're supposed to draw the line: gimmicks are fun, but its better when there's underlying character, and major gameplay elements should not be introduced for the sake of giving characters gimmicks. Still Apollo's gimmick was worked in believably, his harassment of witnesses could be explained in universe by just him vaguely mentioning something, then presenting evidence or something else (in the case of Kristoph, exploiting the jury system), to properly establish what he was saying with evidence. However, the thing AJ does that I find more problematic for the realism, is it introduces the first gimmick dominated prosecutor. Klavier may have his fans, but his rockstar status is part of his persona, rather than a quirk about him.

And so now we're at DD, and we've added another lawyer. Athena's whole mood matrix thing feels like a gimmick for the sake of having a gimmick again, and also bothers me because I feel that its not really justified in the story.
Frankly, Manfred Von Karma would have eaten Athena and her mood matrix alive, and tied up several of the DD cases with a guilty verdict in a few minutes. I could maybe see Apollo's perceptions making it past MVK, but not Athena's analtic psych, and that really bothers me. Why isn't Blackquill complaining about this obvious badgering of the witness, and vague speculations about why the witness feels the way they do? MVK would complain that this is all a pointless charade to be thrown out immediately, and the trial ended! And on the subject of Blackquill, we now have a prosecutor who is a samurai, and a criminal, once again this being the dominating feature of his persona.

Finally, the DD cases also have unbelievably convoluted setups for convolution's sake. I can now ask, "why did you do that?" about character's actions, and the only response seems to be, "because it would make the murderer even HARDER to find, because I added yet another level of fabrication, with no regard to risk:reward cost of doing so!" The actions no longer seem as tight or as well grounded.

tl;dr: MVK would've pwned Athena and her mood matrix in court. Major characters, esp. prosecutors, now seem defined by quirks rather than merely possessing them. Fantastical elements used to serve a purpose to make the game play of working through the case interesting, but now seem added for the sake of having them, and they are more critical to figuring out the case and thus the immersion breaking is greater.


All this isn't to say I didn't enjoy DD, I just enjoyed AA1 more, and feel people complaining about the game feeling less realistic are justified.
(Also, I'd like to point out that I don't dislike Athena, by the end of the game, I felt like she fit in with the rest of the Anything Agency gang.)
I still enjoyed the game and would like to play more, too bad the other DLC case isn't being released in NA. Darn capcom seems always to be holding out on us.


What an excellent first post, I agree with everything you said (except that bit about AAI, but that's besides the point). Please post more in this forum ~

The Mood Matrix really made me roll my eyes at times. It seemed quite forced and while I really did enjoy the animations for the Mood Matrix and would like to see more of that type of stylistic innovation, it was totally unrealistic. The perceive tool was pushing it, but it never felt invasive and I think it straddled the line of realism. Any farther would be and is a mistake.



Yes I agree with a lot of things said here as well.

Though Athena's power could totally make sense...if she was an android.
Spoiler: Case 5 Dual Destinies
I'd always wondered why Blackquill let it slide as well. He'd already shown himself awareness of when Apollo was using his power and objects to it. That makes no sense as it is because Apollo is simply looking at the witness and examining nervous tics. Sure he's got super magic eyesight but no one can tell that, Apollo's power is essentially just derived from reading body language which some folks actually do.

Athena on the other hand actively says "STOP EVERYTHING! I AM GOING TO DO COUNSELLING!" Boots up her projector and engages her own little kind of cross-examination. Not that I don't like the mood matrix, hell I thought the bit in the finale where you could use both Mood examination and Cross examination side by side was pretty cool (though they should have had Apollo's perception in there for the mega-trinity).

As far as it goes it seems easy to stop Athena from ever using the Mood Matrix in Court simply by saying "This is a waste of time," since it's hardly an established legal practice. I agree Manfred would probably crush her for it. The only reason I can think of Blackquill letting it slide is because of their connection when Athena was a baby android child. Even then that seems tenuous at best "She was my bosses' daughter who was in the lab sometimes but mostly ran off to play with robots, I will die for her." I tell you if I'd found a blood-soaked Athena with the body of her mother with the same kind of relationship as Blackquill's I'd probably just back away slowly and call the police.


Though they explain some of the "Samurai" in Blackquill even if it's pretty throwaway, his 'sensei' being a big Japanese culture fan hints that she passed it on to him, or perhaps he always was and just passed it onto her. Either way fan theories seem to suggest he's just a great big Weeaboo.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?Topic%20Title
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Come to think of it, they really should've depicted the Mood Matrix as a contributing factor to the ubiquitous 'Dark Age of the Law' nonsense as opposed to the solution. It would've been far more interesting and logical; not only would you keep the entertaining Mood Matrix segments, but you'd also be told that it'd probably make the people question the legitimacy of the courts even more, and you'd have to choose whether or not it catching a criminal is worth further suspicion.

Of course, I'm not advocating more gameplay mechanics, such as choosing to let someone off the hook, but it'd at least make you reflect upon why on Earth anyone would accept feelings as evidence as well as making the overarching theme feel more relevant.
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