Pffft oh why not. Sligneris said exactly the same thing and still gave no explanation. It solves a lot of the problems with Athena and it's more of an explanation than the writers actually gave for Athena's 'boons'. But yes it's a Crack Theory I hardly expect it to be true.

---

Uh, okay, then it makes sense. I'm way to lazy to give explanations xD

---

I'd say not enjoying the game is a pretty big problem


>Says this
>Likes Athena
pls


But I also don't think Athena will get written out of GS5. The AA franchise loooooves its main characters way too much. As much as I would love for Athena and Simon to fly off to Germica to study psychology, never to be seen or heard from again (okay, they can pop back in for ONE case ), I don't think it's going to happen.


Oh, and Android Athena is best Athena :3

---

...Hateful moderators? That's new.

Sarcasm detection, btw.

---

But spirit channeling makes total sense! The craziest thing in the franchise is clearly Athena.

---

Uh, sure, I guess. If you say so.

To me canon Athena is best Athena! Her interaction with Apollo is just cute.

Your problems with her are easily explained with simple assumptions you refuse to accept, but at the same time you instead pick something like that just for mockery's sake, really.

Can't we just agree that our opinions are different and stop trying to determine which one is "wrong" and what "doesn't make sense"? I believe when talking about opinions, words like "opinion" itself (e. g. "in my opinion"), "satisfaction" (e. g. "I wasn't satisfied with...") etc. are the basics.

---

*sigh* This again... Look, I just don't really care anymore. I am just annoyed by contents of this thread, filled with nothing but complaints about "Athena this", "Athena that". My counterarguments were pretty much ignored and it's not that easy to help with 4 vs 1 debate. If you wanted to ruin her character to me, then bravo, you made it. Anything else?

---

Sligneris I can't censor myself just because you might be watching this thread...you already said you'd give this thread a break. Hell you said it was fine for us to voice our complaints about Athena in this thread so long as we didn't do it out of this thread. That alone is an unreasonable suggestion and now you are just wanting us to stop here? Just accept it, Athena is a divisive character not universally loved, there's nothing wrong with you liking her.

Rubia was wondering about a post of mine that summarised a lot of the arguments folks had made but said they'd have to dig through all 15 pages for it. I was just bringing up the one I thought it was for his convenience.

---

Now, I haven't debated anything in this thread, but even so; you seem to take everything personally. It's not as if they are bashing you because of your preferences, I'm pretty sure they're fine with you liking Athena (I mean, I'm not very fond of her, but I'm happy that you are, it wouldn't be fun if everyone thought exactly the same about everything)... I wouldn't even mention it if it wasn't for you seemingly taking things as personal attacks in another thread as well. People aren't "complaining" to ruin characters/cases/allthatjazz for you. It's a discussion, opinions against opinions, not people versus people to prove who is the better one, the winner. People just want to make their points and discuss them.

---

Yes, we can assume that Athena and Simon had a great relationship when Athena was little, and we can assume that her Germerican family had legal connections, and we can assume she's just a super-genius who worked super-hard all seven years, and we can assume her powers work through [weird explanation X], but no matter what, these are still all assumptions. Absolutely none of it is based on anything in the games. And even if it can be explained away with an assumption, the fact that we had to fill it in ourselves makes her seem like bad writing.

Plus, there are certain things that can't be resolved with "simple assumptions." For instance, Widget's mind-reading. That sort of technology isn't something you can just slap in there and then hand-wave away.

And on top of that, there are certain things which, even if explained, still make Athena a bad character. For example, the fact that she's such a young attorney. (Also, super-young attornies are NOT normal in the AA-verse.) If we want to get technical, the franchise has been filled with super-young prosecutors. Athena is the first "genius" lawyer. Playing as a genius and playing against a genius are two very different things. So even if they come up with some silly explanation, like Metis and Simon taught Athena about psychology and law, respectively, while she was young, and then Athena's uncle was Attorney General of Germerica, it may all be explained, but making such a gifted character the protagonist still makes the story boring.


Everyone is entitled to their opinions, obviously. And if you merely want to state your opinion, rather than discuss everyone's opinions, you obviously can do that. That doesn't mean we're going to stop arguing for our side, though :P

---

Oh, of course not. I made it clear several times that I don't want to impose my opinion on anyone else. To be honest, I never gave all that much thought. I just accepted what the game's creators gave me, but I'm fine with you not doing the same It's just that I felt this ">Says that >Likes Athena" comment kinda felt to me like it crossed a certain line.

...I... still don't see how all that you pointed out is a problem though. I mean, we never had something like this before, but it doesn't mean that it's bad, right? ...I hardly see Athena entering the office with this kind of personality at the age of 22 or 24 anyway, you know.

---

Sorry, then. Didn't mean to insult/offend you.


Playing as Nick vs Edgey is exciting, because Edgey is a genius prosecutor who became a prosecutor at a young age and hasn't lost a single case, and we're just a regular joe schmoe.
Playing as Athena vs Simon is boring, because we're a genius bilingual psychologist attorney with unexplained magical powers, super-advanced technology, and two other really good attornies backing us up, against a regular joe schmoe (who knows psychology).

From a general story perspective, doing a character like Athena is just really really boring to me. To put it in simpler terms, due to all her gifts, Athena no longer feels like an underdog, like Nick and Polly did.

---

Thanks! I'll have to get to it later, though. Now isn't the best time.


Oh, hey, welcome back. But when was it a 4 vs 1 debate? I count only three who visit this thread regularly who argue against Athena.


Now I wonder how playing as Shigaraki would be like. All we've seen of him was one trial where he didn't take seriously, yet we're expected to believe that he's on par with Edgey Sr. Of course, being a spin-off character does take a bit of the load off, but to be honest, after hearing that theme of his, I immediately came to like him, only to realize there wasn't much for him to do in that game.

On the other hand, playing as Athena vs Simon in a fighting game would make all the difference. :)

---

Urgh, I didn't like Shigaraki ~_~ But yeah, he doesn't actually do much. ...Except stall.


I feel like Simon would be a top-tier character in 逆転バトル xP
Even if Athena is an android, Simon has already shown he can break metal, so... yeah.

---

While we're on the subject of Simon being unimpressive, having a shock collar to instantly cripple him sort of took some of the intimidation factor away. Being a prisoner he literally had no power in the courtroom.

---

How do you know that it was a shock collar? I thought it was his handcuffs that sent out the electrical jolt.

I wasn't being specific, the important thing is he has a device that can instantly weaken his authority in Court.

---

"Shock Collar" seems like you specifically said it was worn on his Collar but I digress. I agree it weakened his authority but not by that much since it wasn't done too often throughout the game. It was more like a gag between Fulbright and Simon.

Well the first time it was done, he was at the height of an argument I believe and it just took the wind out of his sails entirely. Always sat there in my mind as him being severely leashed.

---

Hm, I don't think you did either one. I thought it was a little inappropriate, but I'm not bothered by that, don't worry.

---

Well wouldn't you feel the same as simon if you were a convicted prosector and you were electrocuted in that manner?
I thought it was a normal response anyone would have in that situation.

But there was JUSTICE in that electrocution.

---

No no I'm not saying I'd react any different or nothing like that. It's just it sat there in my mind thinking "He's cool an all but really he's completely non-intimidating" after that.

---

I don't think it makes him "non-intimidating" because of the electrocution. They can't make him that overpowered as a prosecutor it wouldn't really be fair.

I never thought he was intimidating before that.

I mean, we're in court with a bunch of guards and bailiff and whatnot. He doubt he'd be able to reach the defense bench before the guards were on him.

---

Athena can turn into an android? Why does this game not exist!? （。＾ワ＾）ツ 発想より、裁判所を逆転させるんじゃないか！裁判長がおこるぞｗｗ


He was able to reach the defense bench anyway, cuffs off. But yeah, I found him more hilarious than intimidating. The Blue Badger does a better job.



Well, I guess I can put this here. Okay, let's see what I can pull from Trucy's magic panties!

Her poor academic records were from before her mother's death and Blackquill's imprisonment. The headphones her mother made for her helped the hearing sensitivity problem, but after wearing it for a while, it'd come to hurt her head. Naturally, she wouldn't want to stop by crowded areas like a public school.

What Metis should have done is sent her daughter to a private one, with much smaller crowds, or even called for a personal tutor for Athena to be home-schooled instead. I don't know how much Metis is paid for her job, but if it's such important research, surely she can't be that bad off... but that's beside the point.

After she went off overseas to live with relatives, she finally firmed her resolve to return to school, despite the suffering she had to go through. If her drive to help someone was so great such that she'd confront everything that had trouble her before head on, then it may just be possible - though, certainly not normal or realistic, but that's out of the question by now - to bring up her grades, attend honors programs that for some reason allow her to skip a few grades, and enter a prestigious university by proving that she's just that good. We should assume that the grades she skipped were in junior or senior high, and not when she's entered into a university, or it wouldn't make sense for any university to accept her willy-nilly.

As for how she managed to skip a couple more or so in college and earn her degree by 18 years, it is indeed ridiculous. Based on how poorly she does her job, you'd think she wouldn't have done well enough to even earn herself a law degree at all. Apparently, Germerica has a special program for students to jump directly to taking the bar exam, even without the proper credentials from law school. (Note that I always refer to that country as Germerica, not Germany or America, since neither country actually does that.) Her law education may not even be complete, and if that isn't, then neither are her psychology studies. In fact, even in real life, only a small percentage of what kids learn over the years are actually applied to their jobs.

Rather than comparing her to Klavier and Franzy, I prefer to compare her with her fellow attorneys. On the other spectrum is Phoenix. He passes the bar exam, only to question what's the difference between "defendant", "defense attorney", and "mentor". Even if he's not genius material, he's proven time and again to be indestructible or incredibly lucky (but more likely the former). So, apparently, that's where his talents lie... if they can be called talents.

Apollo sits in the middle. He's not genius material, nor does he risk big like his boss always does. That's normal. He's also the butt of almost every joke, and in the end, people don't care about his achievements - except for when he makes his own turnabouts, but after the trial, people go home and talk about it like their favorite soap operas. It takes a lot of horrid luck to be that bad off. In a way, that's how he excels... poorly.

Together with Edgey and Blacky, they form the Wright 5 Lawyer Corps! Talents unite!

...I'm half kidding. Yamazaki mentioned a draft memo in one of his blogs, describing how he once envisioned three other rookies joining the WAA. Thankfully, he scrapped it.

To put it bluntly, Athena's character began as a joke. Then, they gradually built up something from there.


Apollo is just as bad. The better question is, was Athena's power meant to be based on reality in the first place? Her initial designs suggested that she may have been calling references to old sci-fi anime, like Battleship Yamato. And we all know how accurate the science is in sci-fi fiction.

Well, sci-fi is a genre based on the imaginative side of scientific applications in the first place. If some strange happenstance actually occurs in real life, fiction can easily exaggerate upon some qualities until they're just plain impossible. The problem with Widget being a mind-reading tool is indeed that he's unique to Athena. Then again, no one in this universe questions why she bases so much of her arguments on pretty pictures and a weird thing on her neck. When a nobody who is known as "the Phantom" has to bring up the question to people's attention, it's already at the level that this world is doomed people have long suspended their disbelief of anything that happens in court. Phoenix probably set the trend; various prosecutors that have fallen in his wake only sped up the process.

This applies with the players too. How can I expect to treat this game using reality as a standard? I've given up on it.


I have to attribute the technological dissonance to the progression of the games themselves. The first game was released by in 2001 on the GBA, meant to be a one-shot story. Naturally, design of phones and computers would be up to date with designs of the 90s. From there, Phoenix's phone didn't need to be changed, and the phone sprite is simply changed in color and a little extra design. This is the power of reusability of sprites.

Then comes along GS3, which features a computer company designed with a futuristic look, similar to the designs we see in the Space Center. Then, it was described as "representing the future". Apparently, the "future" was about 7, 8 years later.

Finally, PW:AA was released in the west with RftA bundled in, in 2005. It was then when the NA localization team finally jumped in. They decided to specify the year, as if to show the "changes" to the American judicial system within 15 years, given how drastically different the old inquisitive Japanese system was, compared to the American one. (Of course, it's already 2014, and I don't expect that much progressive movement from the US gov't in two years.) But by shooting the first three games ahead 15 years, a lot of technology would have grown by then. The people wouldn't change, but their tools would. It's why I adore the special effects used in the live action movie. It's actually more "accurate" than the original games, ever since Capcom JP has accepted the shift in time.

By GS4/AJ:AA, we see the police force (or at least Ema) has earned itself some advanced scan tech... that Ema can bring around everywhere with her. It must be light and portable, despite how it looks as an evidence sprite. (Now, if only it could have a button to press to activate self-scanning.)

Naturally, the Investigations games have been keeping up with trends. Why would the courthouse lobbies suddenly have flat-screen TVs, like during I-4 - a flashback case, set in the year 2013...ish - but nothing like that ever showed up in previous games? "Camera angle." Screw you, Phoenix Wright. I want to watch TV! I mean, it's not on, but at least I can stare at it... (The sensor wristbands given to prisoners at the detention center, in GK2, are pretty impressive too. Easy prevention of breakouts by installing sensor gates between cells and adjoined hallways.)

We then return back to GS5. ...I don't have much else to add. Technology in this series has always been anachronistic. At least Nick didn't bother updating his phone.

---

Disagree with this (not the fact that Athena is/isn't an underdog. Just the fact that it's more fun to play as an underdog). It can be fun playing as the non-underdog. Look at the Investigations series. Edgeworth is very much in control of the situations he gets put in. Even the Pursuit theme (Pursuit-Lying Coldly) is different from the core series. In the core series, it's when you finally rise up on top and corner the witness. In AAI, it reflects how in control Edgeworth is of the situation. He pretty much has everything figured out at that point

Might be just me because I actually like AAI a lot more than other people here (and AAI2) and a lot of it is due to the character of Edgeworth. Besides, it's fun to mix up the cast a bit.

Edit: Shit. I kind of just realized that I sort of nonsensically rambled. My point was that based on the Investigations series, it can be fun to play as someone who isn't an underdog. Hell, it's even evident with Phoenix in DD

I want to reply but leaving on holiday grrr...



YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE LAST OF MEEEEE! *flies off on Helicopter Ladder shaking an angry fist.*

---

I found that unproportionately funny. Note to self: No checking Court-records in class.

About Athena, I kind of feel sorry for her as I realized that she seems to view Juniper as her best friend while Juniper probably has grown closer to Hugh and Robin.

---

Well, to be honest, it does kinda seem that way. I think we must see more of Athena/Juniper interaction.

---

...me too. But at least I am at home...

I agree about that as well. There is probably a whole lot of potential when it comes to Athena's and Juniper's friendship, but... I doubt they would form a similar bond that she has with Robin and Hugh. But who knows?

---

What I mean is that even though they're childhood friends (and I believe they corresponded through letter while Athena was in Europe?) and portrayed as still very good friends, Juniper has moved on in a different way, found new friends in school and so on while Athena probably have been more isolated and spent less time with people her own age, Juniper seems to be her only friend (before joining Wright Anything Agency) and she strikes me as, how can I put this, more "dependant" on Juniper than the other way round.

---

Ah, definitely. Perhaps that's why Athena was so happy when she heard Juniper's little nickname for her.

---

"Yes! She removed a vowel from my name!"

She'll be called Thn sooner or later...which is her android name. True story.

---

Hehe... Indeed.

I believe you.

---

...That crack theory sure is popular around here >.>

---

Hmm... Edgey certainly isn't an underdog, but I wouldn't say he's "in control." He usually doesn't figure out the final details of the crime until the midst of his confrontation with the killer. Moreover, until that point, we don't know who the killer is--we're dealing with an 'unknown'. We don't really 'know' if Edgey is the underdog, since we don't know his adversary.

---

But...

Get back here before I lose my smile.

---

Interesting. Maybe this is why the AAI games have Edgeworth facing up against these huge organizations that one can't even fathom; so, he does become an 'underdog' in a sort of way because what he's facing is bigger than himself whether it's the Yatagarasu, a smuggling ring, or an assassin