Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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. I read just one page and I could already tell that this has at least some of the forum split down the middle. And now another two cents to add to this mountain of pennies: I liked Athena's character. I saw the mountains of arguments about how Athena is "too perfect" (or something to that effect), but I didn't think she was overtly perfect like some make her out to be. While her age might still be an issue (it even peeves me a little bit, as much as I am in denial of it), I thought she wasn't Ms. Perfect or anything like that. Sure she may have a degree in analytical psychology AND a degree in law, but I am sure since she is no von Karma that she had some bumps in the road and there still are bumps in the road. She still has a lot to learn because of the fact that she has little experience compared to Phoenix Wright or even Apollo (but not by much) and because simply of how young she got her degrees. I know that there will be people that will disagree, but hey, with a such a varied fanbase as ours, we all have different interpretations. 
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Where'd you get a degree thing from?
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Nearavex wrote:
She had psychology degree? I thought she was just passionate about psychology, but I think you can just as well say Ema has a science degree, basing that on character's interest. Oh wait, it's outright said that Ema failed. <.<
Where'd you get a degree thing from?
Where'd you get a degree thing from?
Just from all her psychology stuff.
But it's yet another thing we don't actually know about her. There's no evidence to conclusively show she does or doesn't have a degree--although I think we can all agree that she spent some not insignificant time studying it.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Bad Player wrote:
Nearavex wrote:
She had psychology degree? I thought she was just passionate about psychology, but I think you can just as well say Ema has a science degree, basing that on character's interest. Oh wait, it's outright said that Ema failed. <.<
Where'd you get a degree thing from?
Where'd you get a degree thing from?
Just from all her psychology stuff.
But it's yet another thing we don't actually know about her. There's no evidence to conclusively show she does or doesn't have a degree--although I think we can all agree that she spent some not insignificant time studying it.
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Quote:
Her poor academic records were from before her mother's death and Blackquill's imprisonment. The headphones her mother made for her helped the hearing sensitivity problem, but after wearing it for a while, it'd come to hurt her head. Naturally, she wouldn't want to stop by crowded areas like a public school.
What Metis should have done is sent her daughter to a private one, with much smaller crowds, or even called for a personal tutor for Athena to be home-schooled instead. I don't know how much Metis is paid for her job, but if it's such important research, surely she can't be that bad off... but that's beside the point.
After she went off overseas to live with relatives, she finally firmed her resolve to return to school, despite the suffering she had to go through. If her drive to help someone was so great such that she'd confront everything that had trouble her before head on, then it may just be possible - though, certainly not normal or realistic, but that's out of the question by now - to bring up her grades, attend honors programs that for some reason allow her to skip a few grades, and enter a prestigious university by proving that she's just that good. We should assume that the grades she skipped were in junior or senior high, and not when she's entered into a university, or it wouldn't make sense for any university to accept her willy-nilly.
As for how she managed to skip a couple more or so in college and earn her degree by 18 years, it is indeed ridiculous. Based on how poorly she does her job, you'd think she wouldn't have done well enough to even earn herself a law degree at all. Apparently, Germerica has a special program for students to jump directly to taking the bar exam, even without the proper credentials from law school. (Note that I always refer to that country as Germerica, not Germany or America, since neither country actually does that.) Her law education may not even be complete, and if that isn't, then neither are her psychology studies. In fact, even in real life, only a small percentage of what kids learn over the years are actually applied to their jobs.
Rather than comparing her to Klavier and Franzy, I prefer to compare her with her fellow attorneys. On the other spectrum is Phoenix. He passes the bar exam, only to question what's the difference between "defendant", "defense attorney", and "mentor". Even if he's not genius material, he's proven time and again to be indestructible or incredibly lucky (but more likely the former). So, apparently, that's where his talents lie... if they can be called talents.
Apollo sits in the middle. He's not genius material, nor does he risk big like his boss always does. That's normal. He's also the butt of almost every joke, and in the end, people don't care about his achievements - except for when he makes his own turnabouts, but after the trial, people go home and talk about it like their favorite soap operas. It takes a lot of horrid luck to be that bad off. In a way, that's how he excels... poorly.
Together with Edgey and Blacky, they form the Wright 5 Lawyer Corps! Talents unite!
...I'm half kidding. Yamazaki mentioned a draft memo in one of his blogs, describing how he once envisioned three other rookies joining the WAA. Thankfully, he scrapped it.
To put it bluntly, Athena's character began as a joke. Then, they gradually built up something from there.
What Metis should have done is sent her daughter to a private one, with much smaller crowds, or even called for a personal tutor for Athena to be home-schooled instead. I don't know how much Metis is paid for her job, but if it's such important research, surely she can't be that bad off... but that's beside the point.
After she went off overseas to live with relatives, she finally firmed her resolve to return to school, despite the suffering she had to go through. If her drive to help someone was so great such that she'd confront everything that had trouble her before head on, then it may just be possible - though, certainly not normal or realistic, but that's out of the question by now - to bring up her grades, attend honors programs that for some reason allow her to skip a few grades, and enter a prestigious university by proving that she's just that good. We should assume that the grades she skipped were in junior or senior high, and not when she's entered into a university, or it wouldn't make sense for any university to accept her willy-nilly.
As for how she managed to skip a couple more or so in college and earn her degree by 18 years, it is indeed ridiculous. Based on how poorly she does her job, you'd think she wouldn't have done well enough to even earn herself a law degree at all. Apparently, Germerica has a special program for students to jump directly to taking the bar exam, even without the proper credentials from law school. (Note that I always refer to that country as Germerica, not Germany or America, since neither country actually does that.) Her law education may not even be complete, and if that isn't, then neither are her psychology studies. In fact, even in real life, only a small percentage of what kids learn over the years are actually applied to their jobs.
Rather than comparing her to Klavier and Franzy, I prefer to compare her with her fellow attorneys. On the other spectrum is Phoenix. He passes the bar exam, only to question what's the difference between "defendant", "defense attorney", and "mentor". Even if he's not genius material, he's proven time and again to be indestructible or incredibly lucky (but more likely the former). So, apparently, that's where his talents lie... if they can be called talents.
Apollo sits in the middle. He's not genius material, nor does he risk big like his boss always does. That's normal. He's also the butt of almost every joke, and in the end, people don't care about his achievements - except for when he makes his own turnabouts, but after the trial, people go home and talk about it like their favorite soap operas. It takes a lot of horrid luck to be that bad off. In a way, that's how he excels... poorly.
Together with Edgey and Blacky, they form the Wright 5 Lawyer Corps! Talents unite!
...I'm half kidding. Yamazaki mentioned a draft memo in one of his blogs, describing how he once envisioned three other rookies joining the WAA. Thankfully, he scrapped it.
To put it bluntly, Athena's character began as a joke. Then, they gradually built up something from there.
I'm a little confused, a lot of this seems to be generally agreeing rather than a different idea but sure a lot of it seems valid. The point about Athena's education is the big bit really. I don't think it's viable, the amount she skipped it's not just a few grades. From my education system she skipped practically a whole school to get into her course. She left America at 11, which is when Primary School here roughly ends and most people leave Secondary School for University at age 18, earliest I seen was 16 but those kids tended to struggle. It's just implausible to get as far as she did, they didn't even need to make her 18, she looks too old for 18 if you ask me, her age makes little sense other than "Well we gotta have another prodigy in law!" It's a writing problem that they just wanted to tick it as a checkbox rather than make it contribute something meaningful to the game.
I wouldn't even say she's an especially terrible lawyer, a lot of people point out her jumping the gun and over-emotional nature as flaws to her lawyering but that's just who she is, she hits all the points well enough in court. She proves her usefulness because of her unique tool which is used EVERYWHERE in the game proving herself vital to the team. "I can hear some discord in their heart" often being the only way to progress the testimony. She just has too much.
Quote:
Apollo is just as bad. The better question is, was Athena's power meant to be based on reality in the first place? Her initial designs suggested that she may have been calling references to old sci-fi anime, like Battleship Yamato. And we all know how accurate the science is in sci-fi fiction.
Well, sci-fi is a genre based on the imaginative side of scientific applications in the first place. If some strange happenstance actually occurs in real life, fiction can easily exaggerate upon some qualities until they're just plain impossible. The problem with Widget being a mind-reading tool is indeed that he's unique to Athena. Then again, no one in this universe questions why she bases so much of her arguments on pretty pictures and a weird thing on her neck. When a nobody who is known as "the Phantom" has to bring up the question to people's attention, it's already at the level that this world is doomed people have long suspended their disbelief of anything that happens in court. Phoenix probably set the trend; various prosecutors that have fallen in his wake only sped up the process.
This applies with the players too. How can I expect to treat this game using reality as a standard? I've given up on it.
Well, sci-fi is a genre based on the imaginative side of scientific applications in the first place. If some strange happenstance actually occurs in real life, fiction can easily exaggerate upon some qualities until they're just plain impossible. The problem with Widget being a mind-reading tool is indeed that he's unique to Athena. Then again, no one in this universe questions why she bases so much of her arguments on pretty pictures and a weird thing on her neck. When a nobody who is known as "the Phantom" has to bring up the question to people's attention, it's already at the level that this world is doomed people have long suspended their disbelief of anything that happens in court. Phoenix probably set the trend; various prosecutors that have fallen in his wake only sped up the process.
This applies with the players too. How can I expect to treat this game using reality as a standard? I've given up on it.
It's not so much I use reality as a standard for Ace Attorney...rather it's own reality I hold into account. It's so far beyond what I consider acceptable for the Ace Attorney Universe. I know to make some allowances and suspend disbelief for things in this game but Widget is nothing like anything else in the Ace Attorney universe. Other things that suspend disbelief are generally somewhat possible or just a stretch of the truth. Widget feels like it's developed from nothing that goes before (much like the rest of Athena's character). It's unlikely for Machi Tobaye to be able to fire a powerful revolver and move a body across the ground yes but perhaps he has an intensive workout session and is immaculately ripped beneath those feathery white frocks. That's pretty bad still but its within human limits and as BP said earlier a large part of it is due to her being a protagonist, she should be better fleshed out and formed than a throwaway filler defendant.
Yes her arguments should totally be thrown out of court and if Simon had thrown out her "voices of the heart" argument early on I doubt she'd ever have been allowed to make any progress with it to the point where when the Phantom questions it, the game would have just ended with Athena a fool. Even without prosecutors all it would take is one witness in some kind of denial about their feelings (Robin would have made a good example I think) to go "What? No I don't feel like that, can we move on? This is silly." to shut down Athena. It's especially weird in the wake of AA4 which was all about 'What is a credible argument or evidence?' in court.
Quote:
I have to attribute the technological dissonance to the progression of the games themselves. The first game was released by in 2001 on the GBA, meant to be a one-shot story. Naturally, design of phones and computers would be up to date with designs of the 90s. From there, Phoenix's phone didn't need to be changed, and the phone sprite is simply changed in color and a little extra design. This is the power of reusability of sprites.
Then comes along GS3, which features a computer company designed with a futuristic look, similar to the designs we see in the Space Center. Then, it was described as "representing the future". Apparently, the "future" was about 7, 8 years later.
Finally, PW:AA was released in the west with RftA bundled in, in 2005. It was then when the NA localization team finally jumped in. They decided to specify the year, as if to show the "changes" to the American judicial system within 15 years, given how drastically different the old inquisitive Japanese system was, compared to the American one. (Of course, it's already 2014, and I don't expect that much progressive movement from the US gov't in two years.) But by shooting the first three games ahead 15 years, a lot of technology would have grown by then. The people wouldn't change, but their tools would. It's why I adore the special effects used in the live action movie. It's actually more "accurate" than the original games, ever since Capcom JP has accepted the shift in time.
By GS4/AJ:AA, we see the police force (or at least Ema) has earned itself some advanced scan tech... that Ema can bring around everywhere with her. It must be light and portable, despite how it looks as an evidence sprite. (Now, if only it could have a button to press to activate self-scanning.)
Naturally, the Investigations games have been keeping up with trends. Why would the courthouse lobbies suddenly have flat-screen TVs, like during I-4 - a flashback case, set in the year 2013...ish - but nothing like that ever showed up in previous games? "Camera angle." Screw you, Phoenix Wright. I want to watch TV! I mean, it's not on, but at least I can stare at it... (The sensor wristbands given to prisoners at the detention center, in GK2, are pretty impressive too. Easy prevention of breakouts by installing sensor gates between cells and adjoined hallways.)
We then return back to GS5. ...I don't have much else to add. Technology in this series has always been anachronistic. At least Nick didn't bother updating his phone.
Then comes along GS3, which features a computer company designed with a futuristic look, similar to the designs we see in the Space Center. Then, it was described as "representing the future". Apparently, the "future" was about 7, 8 years later.
Finally, PW:AA was released in the west with RftA bundled in, in 2005. It was then when the NA localization team finally jumped in. They decided to specify the year, as if to show the "changes" to the American judicial system within 15 years, given how drastically different the old inquisitive Japanese system was, compared to the American one. (Of course, it's already 2014, and I don't expect that much progressive movement from the US gov't in two years.) But by shooting the first three games ahead 15 years, a lot of technology would have grown by then. The people wouldn't change, but their tools would. It's why I adore the special effects used in the live action movie. It's actually more "accurate" than the original games, ever since Capcom JP has accepted the shift in time.
By GS4/AJ:AA, we see the police force (or at least Ema) has earned itself some advanced scan tech... that Ema can bring around everywhere with her. It must be light and portable, despite how it looks as an evidence sprite. (Now, if only it could have a button to press to activate self-scanning.)
Naturally, the Investigations games have been keeping up with trends. Why would the courthouse lobbies suddenly have flat-screen TVs, like during I-4 - a flashback case, set in the year 2013...ish - but nothing like that ever showed up in previous games? "Camera angle." Screw you, Phoenix Wright. I want to watch TV! I mean, it's not on, but at least I can stare at it... (The sensor wristbands given to prisoners at the detention center, in GK2, are pretty impressive too. Easy prevention of breakouts by installing sensor gates between cells and adjoined hallways.)
We then return back to GS5. ...I don't have much else to add. Technology in this series has always been anachronistic. At least Nick didn't bother updating his phone.
I'm not sure what else I have to say without mingling my points really XP
Even if I did think Widget was on an acceptable tech-level it's still really weird that the only mind-reading device in Ace Attorney is not being sought after or questioned, it feels like they gave it the mind reading function PURELY to tick the 'running gag' box in Athena's character creation as they didn't do anything meaningful with the little quirk.
The portable scanners I don't really think are such a big deal, I think we might even be capable of that already plenty with iPhone tech and tablet tech developing as it is.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Klonoahedgehog wrote:
I'm convinced Athena's a cyborg, her power to feel other's emotions feel way to off for her to be a normal person. ...Booyah.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Pierre wrote:
I'm back! Time to do this.
Welcome back!
Quote:
I'm a little confused, a lot of this seems to be generally agreeing rather than a different idea but sure a lot of it seems valid. The point about Athena's education is the big bit really. I don't think it's viable, the amount she skipped it's not just a few grades. From my education system she skipped practically a whole school to get into her course. She left America at 11, which is when Primary School here roughly ends and most people leave Secondary School for University at age 18, earliest I seen was 16 but those kids tended to struggle. It's just implausible to get as far as she did, they didn't even need to make her 18, she looks too old for 18 if you ask me, her age makes little sense other than "Well we gotta have another prodigy in law!" It's a writing problem that they just wanted to tick it as a checkbox rather than make it contribute something meaningful to the game.
I know I can swing off on tangents a lot and muddle my arguments. It's something I need to work on...
I don't think Yamazaki was thinking that they "gotta have another prodigy", but that they had to tie Athena's story to Phoenix somehow and ingrain her into a major role, given the introduction of the Mood Matrix. As a new mechanic, it simply had to be set at the forefront; no argument there. There'd be little point to letting her stay around the office unless she becomes employed under Wright.
The main issue here then comes to the seven years that were missing when Phoenix took a break from law. Initially, the writers wanted to implement a different mood to start this game; make it darker and more serious than usual... sort of. They wanted a final case that could somehow "wrap up" the loose ends that supposedly started this dark age, and someone important involved in that particular case had to have been a young girl at the time. It'd be even more ridiculous if she were already 15 or 16 when it happened, and she still wouldn't understand how much human bodies differ from robots.
Sure, the writers could have rewritten it so that she was clever enough to recognize as much, and either way, Blackquill would have given a false confession to cover for her. Yet, the case's premise lies on how much Athena doesn't remember. As badly as a 16-year-old could be traumatized, it's still worse to an 11-year-old, and she'd be prone to forgetting more of the incident than otherwise. Also, if she was 16 then, Edgeworth wouldn't argue that the "truth" is sometimes more bitter than the lies and shut Phoenix down that way. He'd instead argue that she was the spy in question responsible for taking Metis' life, and that family ties would have no meaning in this case. Both are powerful lessons, but one affects Phoenix personally a bit more than the other.
On a related note, they certainly couldn't push Blackquill's sentence longer than this because the case wouldn't then be set "one year after the events of GS4". They couldn't even set this case to before Phoenix dropped out of law because it's tied to one of the reasons there's even a dark age of law in the first place.
In a way, even Apollo's character contributes a bit to her age. He's 23 in this game. He wouldn't come off as a "big brother figure" to her if they were the same age. Note that a lot of what Athena takes note on comes from Apollo. After all, the most important thing to know is how to present your attorney's badge.
All in all, Athena had to squeeze an incredible amount of learning into a rather limited time frame. It's a result more from unfortunate implications rather than from intended purposes.
Quote:
I wouldn't even say she's an especially terrible lawyer, a lot of people point out her jumping the gun and over-emotional nature as flaws to her lawyering but that's just who she is, she hits all the points well enough in court. She proves her usefulness because of her unique tool which is used EVERYWHERE in the game proving herself vital to the team. "I can hear some discord in their heart" often being the only way to progress the testimony. She just has too much.
No, I don't mean it personally. She's not so "terrible". Do take note that I'm not attacking her skills because of those reasons, but because she's still inexperienced. It's her first year, anyway, and that's beside what I do complain about.
Quote:
Even if I did think Widget was on an acceptable tech-level it's still really weird that the only mind-reading device in Ace Attorney is not being sought after or questioned, it feels like they gave it the mind reading function PURELY to tick the 'running gag' box in Athena's character creation as they didn't do anything meaningful with the little quirk.
It does seem like sloppy writing, but I'm pretty sure that's what the writers agreed to come to. It is strange that only one person we know has such a unique device, and no one else seems capable of reproducing it for the masses. However, it's not outside the realm of belief. There have been historical records of famous inventors who died before their many of their works were officially constructed and/or published (Da Vinci, anyone? Seriously, this guy made robots before "robots" even existed), and so fellow researchers and students couldn't get all the details down to make those ideas into reality.
No worries. As history dictates, there will eventually come along another genius who will be able to mass-produce Widget or Sonic Screwdriver so that no one could complain about limited supplies. :D
...My God, what will this series become if we integrate time travel...?
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
...My God, what will this series become if we integrate time travel...?
Virtue's Last Turnabout
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Bad Player wrote:
Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
...My God, what will this series become if we integrate time travel...?
Virtue's Last Turnabout
Some what of Ghost Trick
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Bad Player wrote:
Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
...My God, what will this series become if we integrate time travel...?
Virtue's Last Turnabout
Why does this sound so beautiful?
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1/3/19 edit: The project has officially been moved to a new blog at https://gsvsaa.blogspot.com/ Further updates will be pending.
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1/3/19 edit: The project has officially been moved to a new blog at https://gsvsaa.blogspot.com/ Further updates will be pending.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
All in all, Athena had to squeeze an incredible amount of learning into a rather limited time frame. It's a result more from unfortunate implications rather than from intended purposes.
Hmm, I think I can agree with that.
...Of course, all it means is that "Athena is a bad character by accident" rather than "Athena is a bad character on purpose"
What if instead of Athena's incident taking place shortly after Nick's incident, it took place before? There were 7 years between Nick losing his badge and 4-4, and 7 years between Athena's incident and GS5, meaning Athena's incident took place 'a year' after Nick's; pushing it back to before Nick's incident would be pushing it back two years. This gives Athena 9 years to study, rather than 7. Also, you can probably bump up Athena to 12 or 13 years old without changing much. Now she's 21-22, and had 9 years for her studies. Suddenly, she's a lot more reasonable. (Add a bit of a romance streak with Polly, and suddenly his big scene in 5-5 is all the more touching.)
Just trying to show that there's plenty of room to 'fix' Athena while retaining all the parameters necessary for the story.
Quote:
It does seem like sloppy writing, but I'm pretty sure that's what the writers agreed to come to. It is strange that only one person we know has such a unique device, and no one else seems capable of reproducing it for the masses. However, it's not outside the realm of belief. There have been historical records of famous inventors who died before their many of their works were officially constructed and/or published (Da Vinci, anyone? Seriously, this guy made robots before "robots" even existed), and so fellow researchers and students couldn't get all the details down to make those ideas into reality.
I understand your arguments, but I think there are a few aspects that make it a bit... unrealistic
-We have a much better understanding of... pretty much everything nowadays. I don't think reverse engineering would be as difficult, especially for electronics where you can always analyze the code and everything
-Metis was a government-sponsored researcher. I imagine she'd need notes and mini-demos to demonstrate she's making progress and whatnot in order to keep getting funding
-Metis had an assistant (Aura), who should know about Metis' research
-As I've said, Widget is super-advanced. If nothing else, there should be lower-tech versions (such as devices that need to be plugged into your brain, or need physical contact with your head) whose technology can be understood.
When you consider all these things, I don't think it's plausible to go "Metis was a solo researcher who invented Widget out of nowhere, and there's nobody in existence who can understand or replicate it"
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Bad Player wrote:
What if instead of Athena's incident taking place shortly after Nick's incident, it took place before? There were 7 years between Nick losing his badge and 4-4, and 7 years between Athena's incident and GS5, meaning Athena's incident took place 'a year' after Nick's; pushing it back to before Nick's incident would be pushing it back two years. This gives Athena 9 years to study, rather than 7. Also, you can probably bump up Athena to 12 or 13 years old without changing much. Now she's 21-22, and had 9 years for her studies. Suddenly, she's a lot more reasonable. (Add a bit of a romance streak with Polly, and suddenly his big scene in 5-5 is all the more touching.)
Just trying to show that there's plenty of room to 'fix' Athena while retaining all the parameters necessary for the story.
Just trying to show that there's plenty of room to 'fix' Athena while retaining all the parameters necessary for the story.
Don't worry. I didn't forget to take those into account.
It's a concern with the progression of events. If Blackquill really was as infamous as he was named, then someone like him falling into a crime would be reminiscent of Edgeworth's trial. It's not something Phoenix could avoid hearing about, since people would be talking all about it. Then, why couldn't Phoenix just take Blackquill's case? Even if Athena wasn't around to ask him to take the case, I'm surprised Edgeworth would have nothing to do with it. By that point, he was already involved in legal business overseas. (And suddenly, Larry called him for some inane reason.) Surely he would have gotten wind of an espionage conspiracy at a national iconic space center which has government funding support into its important research.
My point here is, if Phoenix wasn't taken out of the picture yet, the dark age of law couldn't have followed. If it didn't follow, then this game would need a new theme and final case to match that theme. It'd be back to the drawing board, and I doubt Capcom gave the dev team so much time to squander.
Edit: I considered what if Blackquill became so infamous after that case. But then how did he get to be so well known? Were they actually peaceful protesters at the detention center everyday for a while demanding his freedom, but shooed away with a riot squad and mild tear gas? No wonder the public came to distrust the legal system.
Quote:
I understand your arguments, but I think there are a few aspects that make it a bit... unrealistic
-We have a much better understanding of... pretty much everything nowadays. I don't think reverse engineering would be as difficult, especially for electronics where you can always analyze the code and everything
-Metis was a government-sponsored researcher. I imagine she'd need notes and mini-demos to demonstrate she's making progress and whatnot in order to keep getting funding
-Metis had an assistant (Aura), who should know about Metis' research
-As I've said, Widget is super-advanced. If nothing else, there should be lower-tech versions (such as devices that need to be plugged into your brain, or need physical contact with your head) whose technology can be understood.
When you consider all these things, I don't think it's plausible to go "Metis was a solo researcher who invented Widget out of nowhere, and there's nobody in existence who can understand or replicate it"
-We have a much better understanding of... pretty much everything nowadays. I don't think reverse engineering would be as difficult, especially for electronics where you can always analyze the code and everything
-Metis was a government-sponsored researcher. I imagine she'd need notes and mini-demos to demonstrate she's making progress and whatnot in order to keep getting funding
-Metis had an assistant (Aura), who should know about Metis' research
-As I've said, Widget is super-advanced. If nothing else, there should be lower-tech versions (such as devices that need to be plugged into your brain, or need physical contact with your head) whose technology can be understood.
When you consider all these things, I don't think it's plausible to go "Metis was a solo researcher who invented Widget out of nowhere, and there's nobody in existence who can understand or replicate it"
Yeah, I don't think it's plausible either, but the other implication suggests something dangerous. Perhaps Aura did know how to replicate it, but didn't want to bother with it. Perhaps there are other independent research institutions that know how to replicate it, but they couldn't go through with the project. Whoever was preventing them would have good reason to hide it from the public, though. Isn't it a scary thought to have your personal thoughts read or spoken aloud, just like that?
Whatever the reason, the biggest question is why the audience never bothers to question Athena about what that thing is. Do they think it's just a decoration? But that's not quite right. He even speaks her mind. She explains it casually in 5-1, and everyone just goes "oh, okay."
Not one person says "Mommy, I want one!" but I guess that mother kept her noisy child out of court this time.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
What if instead of Athena's incident taking place shortly after Nick's incident, it took place before? There were 7 years between Nick losing his badge and 4-4, and 7 years between Athena's incident and GS5, meaning Athena's incident took place 'a year' after Nick's; pushing it back to before Nick's incident would be pushing it back two years. This gives Athena 9 years to study, rather than 7. Also, you can probably bump up Athena to 12 or 13 years old without changing much. Now she's 21-22, and had 9 years for her studies. Suddenly, she's a lot more reasonable. (Add a bit of a romance streak with Polly, and suddenly his big scene in 5-5 is all the more touching.)
Just trying to show that there's plenty of room to 'fix' Athena while retaining all the parameters necessary for the story.
Just trying to show that there's plenty of room to 'fix' Athena while retaining all the parameters necessary for the story.
Don't worry. I didn't forget to take those into account.
It's a concern with the progression of events. If Blackquill really was as infamous as he was named, then someone like him falling into a crime would be reminiscent of Edgeworth's trial. It's not something Phoenix could avoid hearing about, since people would be talking all about it. Then, why couldn't Phoenix just take Blackquill's case? Even if Athena wasn't around to ask him to take the case, I'm surprised Edgeworth would have nothing to do with it. By that point, he was already involved in legal business overseas. (And suddenly, Larry called him for some inane reason.) Surely he would have gotten wind of an espionage conspiracy at a national iconic space center which has government funding support into its important research.
Hm, I don't really buy this. First of all, Nick (and Polly... whoever the player character is) always seems completely oblivious to current events :P I really don't think they would've needed to put in some gigantic retcon to explain why Nick didn't take Blackquill's case. He just... wouldn't have.
And secondly, the AA team doesn't really seem to have problems putting in stuff that doesn't make as much sense in earlier games. I don't see why this would be any different. For instance, 3-1 and 1-2 (okay, this is nitpicky, since I'm just talking about that one line Nick says about never being in the defendant's chair xD), Edgey in 1-5 and JFA (granted JFA takes place after 1-5, but 1-5 was made after JFA), or Polly+Clay in DD and AJ.
Besides, Blackquill probably wouldn't have wanted Nick to take the case anyway, lest he "expose" Athena. I think you're trying to create a problem where there is none.
(The Dark Age of Law was already handled really poorly in DD... Would making it just a little bit worse really have made a big difference? xD)
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Bad Player wrote:
Hm, I don't really buy this. First of all, Nick (and Polly... whoever the player character is) always seems completely oblivious to current events :P I really don't think they would've needed to put in some gigantic retcon to explain why Nick didn't take Blackquill's case. He just... wouldn't have.
By that logic, he didn't need to take Zak's case. It's not like anyone forced him into it. What was he even doing at that bar so that he would meet with Zak and they play poker?
*insert "Zak is a Jerk" comic here*
Quote:
And secondly, the AA team doesn't really seem to have problems putting in stuff that doesn't make as much sense in earlier games. I don't see why this would be any different. For instance, 3-1 and 1-2 (okay, this is nitpicky, since I'm just talking about that one line Nick says about never being in the defendant's chair xD), Edgey in 1-5 and JFA (granted JFA takes place after 1-5, but 1-5 was made after JFA), or Polly+Clay in DD and AJ.
Are you suggesting that I shouldn't use normal logic with this series? Well, you'd be right to suggest it. It's hard building an argument when plot contradictions naturally run rampant. :p
The big question is, should we take those plot holes as granted for upcoming games, or pretend they never existed?
Quote:
Besides, Blackquill probably wouldn't have wanted Nick to take the case anyway, lest he "expose" Athena. I think you're trying to create a problem where there is none.
(The Dark Age of Law was already handled really poorly in DD... Would making it just a little bit worse really have made a big difference? xD)
(The Dark Age of Law was already handled really poorly in DD... Would making it just a little bit worse really have made a big difference? xD)
Perhaps I am, or perhaps it suggests that one way or another, Athena has to make an appearance as an assistant role akin to Ema's. In fact, in that sense, Turnabout for Tomorrow really would be a ripoff from Rise from the Ashes. As you've kindly pointed out again and again, the two cases are already rather similar, and adding any more similarities wouldn't exactly help.
Hey, this debate isn't about how badly the dark age was implemented. That bit we already agreed on. ;)
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
Hm, I don't really buy this. First of all, Nick (and Polly... whoever the player character is) always seems completely oblivious to current events :P I really don't think they would've needed to put in some gigantic retcon to explain why Nick didn't take Blackquill's case. He just... wouldn't have.
By that logic, he didn't need to take Zak's case. It's not like anyone forced him into it. What was he even doing at that bar so that he would meet with Zak and they play poker?
*insert "Zak is a Jerk" comic here*
So a few posts ago, I suggested how the events in the backstory of DD could have been swapped around a bit in order to make Athena better, without impacting the case much, mostly by pushing back UR-1.
You said that wouldn't work, and your biggest argument (from my understanding) is that it would create a contradiction with GS1-3, because if UR-1 happened when Nick was still a lawyer, Nick should have taken that case (and won it, obvs, cuz he's Nick).
My point is that I don't think there's a contradiction at all. Nick doesn't have to take every single case that happens ever. There's no reason they would have to jump through hoops to explain why Nick didn't take Blackquill's case, if Metis' murder had happened while Nick was still a lawyer. Nick just... wouldn't have taken it, for whatever reason.
Sure, if UR-1 had happened while Nick was still a lawyer, he 'could have' taken it. But there's no reason he 'had to' take it. And, if the timeline had been made that way, he just wouldn't have. Similarly, with Zak, there's no reason Nick 'couldn't have' taken the case. It's just that he did.
(I think everything else was mostly a confounding of this one point, so... yeah)
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
Hey, this debate isn't about how badly the dark age was implemented. That bit we already agreed on. ;)
FUCK the Dark Age of the Law. Biggest missed opportunity in the series (that theme was nice, though)
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
Hey, this debate isn't about how badly the dark age was implemented. That bit we already agreed on. ;)
FUCK the Dark Age of the Law. Biggest missed opportunity in the series (that theme was nice, though)
Why do you feel it was a missed opportunity?
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
Y'know
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The only problem I see that remains unexplained is Widget... I don't really know why do you expect 100% realism on the matter from Ace Attorney, but let's go along.
What is said in-game is that Aura certainly knew about it. Most likely, as Metis's co-worker, she created it with her. They worked on machines able to understand astronauts' emotions during space missions, which was said in game. Most of this stuff goes without saying or is mentioned in game... Which is why I find it most surprising when someone brings it up as a flaw in a writing direction.
In fact, what bothers me is that at the same time you are fine with pocket holographic projectors in little girl's possession being made not after 2011 and weaponized battle robots being built by a single person without any permissions whatsoever in the middle of space facility.
I mean, it's not like Widget itself has no right to be there. It was created by skilled engineers in 2020, which kinda is about time to introduce some technology. Then, it was inherited by a child of one of its creators after her death. Everyone does seem to be pretty oblivious to the advanced technology anyway, Widget or not. It's just how it is in Ace Attorney.
I can't help but to think most of these Athena issues are kinda silly. Mostly because of how you selectively pick on realism issues in an universe filled with ridiculousness and respond to the counter-arguments... I'm really sorry to say that, but I can't see it as anything else... There were some huge chunks of Rubia's text that weren't responded to at all.
Maybe someone else try to word these problems now...? I can't take them seriously when Bad Player inquires about them, sorry...
PS: I agree about Dark Age of the Law, though. It got a cool moment in the intro and little else that would qualify as "cool", maybe just but one Phantom moment. What can I say. Dual Destinies is a great game that is also easy and cheesy at the same time.
Last edited by Nearavex on Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:26 am, edited 4 times in total.
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Fool Bright wrote:
JesusMonroe wrote:
Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
Hey, this debate isn't about how badly the dark age was implemented. That bit we already agreed on. ;)
FUCK the Dark Age of the Law. Biggest missed opportunity in the series (that theme was nice, though)
Why do you feel it was a missed opportunity?
Something that's been missing from this series since 3-4 is emotional investment in who you're defending and what you're fighting for. I know a lot of people liked Vera in 4-4 but we all knew she wasn't going to die. We knew she'd be innocent. I still enjoy the series, but it's been missing the emotional investment from me. I was satisfied when I took the Phantom down, but it wasn't like when I took two villains in GK2 down (I was more like, "Fuck no! You're going down you piece of shit!").
What I'm getting at is the game should've made me WANT to end the Dark Age of the Law. I still think this game should've been Apollo Justice 2, but I thought making Phoenix the main character again was for story reasons; so he'd be the pillar of light in the Dark Age of the Law. I LOVED Simon Blackquill, but the Prosecutor of this game should've been corrupt; worse than Manfred von Karma. He should've been ruthless in court, blatantly forging evidence, but also choosing to throw away trials and lose if it benefited him (like someone paying him). The final case of the game could be him purposely losing the case and your client is declared innocent. You then find out that your client was actually guilty but you can't touch him because of double jeopardy, so you have to find another crime to convict him of, while also taking down the corrupt Prosecutor and exposing him. It would be different enough from the 2-4 twist and the Prosecutor would be a strong opponent without being the killer
What I'm getting at is that I never felt like it was the Dark Age of the Law. It was just mentioned a lot (a lot of people mentioned show, don't tell). I didn't really care when it ended because it never felt like it started. We've already had Prosecutors desperate for guilty verdicts and lawyers on both sides who have killed people. How is this different?
Another way this game could've addressed the Dark Age of the Law is by having a case where Edgeworth requests the aide of Phoenix to free someone in jail who Edgeworth wrongfully convicted while he was obsessed with winning (a missed opportunity in the GK games).
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
Y'know
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Bad Player wrote:
This argument... is getting really weird. I'm going to try to pull it back.
:3
Quote:
So a few posts ago, I suggested how the events in the backstory of DD could have been swapped around a bit in order to make Athena better, without impacting the case much, mostly by pushing back UR-1.
You said that wouldn't work, and your biggest argument (from my understanding) is that it would create a contradiction with GS1-3, because if UR-1 happened when Nick was still a lawyer, Nick should have taken that case (and won it, obvs, cuz he's Nick).
My point is that I don't think there's a contradiction at all. Nick doesn't have to take every single case that happens ever. There's no reason they would have to jump through hoops to explain why Nick didn't take Blackquill's case, if Metis' murder had happened while Nick was still a lawyer. Nick just... wouldn't have taken it, for whatever reason.
Sure, if UR-1 had happened while Nick was still a lawyer, he 'could have' taken it. But there's no reason he 'had to' take it. And, if the timeline had been made that way, he just wouldn't have. Similarly, with Zak, there's no reason Nick 'couldn't have' taken the case. It's just that he did.
(I think everything else was mostly a confounding of this one point, so... yeah)
You said that wouldn't work, and your biggest argument (from my understanding) is that it would create a contradiction with GS1-3, because if UR-1 happened when Nick was still a lawyer, Nick should have taken that case (and won it, obvs, cuz he's Nick).
My point is that I don't think there's a contradiction at all. Nick doesn't have to take every single case that happens ever. There's no reason they would have to jump through hoops to explain why Nick didn't take Blackquill's case, if Metis' murder had happened while Nick was still a lawyer. Nick just... wouldn't have taken it, for whatever reason.
Sure, if UR-1 had happened while Nick was still a lawyer, he 'could have' taken it. But there's no reason he 'had to' take it. And, if the timeline had been made that way, he just wouldn't have. Similarly, with Zak, there's no reason Nick 'couldn't have' taken the case. It's just that he did.
(I think everything else was mostly a confounding of this one point, so... yeah)
Of course he didn't have to take the case. Yet, and I notice people seem to forget, Aura was around. She said she fought for a retrial, but was turned down. She was turned down because she couldn't find a lawyer to take his case. If Phoenix was still available, couldn't she have turned to him to help? People are usually desperate when they turn to him, in any case.
This is Aura we're talking about. I'm sure she'd find some way to (forcibly) convince him to take the case. Even if Blacky still refused, she had her suspicions of Athena to testify about, and now that she actually has legal backing, her claims would be taken more seriously.
This would be at a moment during Phoenix Wright's prime years as an attorney. He's gotten some level of recognition. Not to mention, this would also be a case Edgeworth would also take notice of. Perhaps he'd take the case as well, if only to question whether the verdict was indeed a just one... and thus try to persecute Athena. Hey, we don't know exactly when Athena went off to Europe to live with relatives, so she could have still been around. Being suspected of a murder kind of prevents her folks from leaving as planned anyway.
...So, in the end, we get the same trial we have gotten in DD, but that it happens earlier in the timeline instead. Whoopie. At least Edgeworth wouldn't have the shame of letting the police skip over vital evidence for SEVEN WHOLE YEARS.
Ahem. And to round it back to our original argument, it's not practical for DD's storyline and some form of a theme to exist if Phoenix still had a job. It happened in DD, and that's because he got his badge back.
You are right about one thing, though: it can still work out such that no one cared about Blacky and Aura happened to miss Phoenix. Then again, isn't this series always about finding the best endings? It'd feel awkward that all these problems happen, and the person who could potentially fix them all was still around to help... but he just didn't. This is different from the random cases he'd skip out on previously, because they didn't have impacts on the future of the plotline.
...Let's see, now that I recall, it was Zak who called Phoenix in then. On the other hand, Phoenix took way too much for granted in that case, and that was his fault.
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1/3/19 edit: The project has officially been moved to a new blog at https://gsvsaa.blogspot.com/ Further updates will be pending.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Fool Bright wrote:
JesusMonroe wrote:
Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
Hey, this debate isn't about how badly the dark age was implemented. That bit we already agreed on. ;)
FUCK the Dark Age of the Law. Biggest missed opportunity in the series (that theme was nice, though)
Why do you feel it was a missed opportunity?
If you don't mind, I'd like to answer this question as well.
The very concept is utterly nonsensical; Phoenix and Blackquill were suspected of committing crime, so now everybody does it. What the hell is this, high school? What about Godot, Kristoph and Manfred von Karma? The latter was a prosecutor who was suspected of bribing and intimidating his way through the legal world for about 40 years!
Also, how on earth can trials proceed as normal when absolutely everybody knows what the dark age of the law is? Why doesn't this impact the way the story plays out? Why doesn't this force players to think differently about the ways trials are done? And while the Mood Matrix should never have been able to be used as proof in the first place, the very thought of using it during the dark age of the law when apparently everyone forges evidence is absolutely ludicrous.
It's just a very bad case of "tell, don't show", and it's not even a well-thought-out idea. The only time we ever came into contact with the unnecessarily vague concept at all was during 5-3, but even then they merely talked about it, and the villain was obvious from the outset.
I really don't understand why this should be considered a darker title than other Ace Attorney games at all. If anything, Dual Destinies is a lot milder than its predecessors, especially Apollo Justice. I don't know about you, but I think that game is actually pretty eerie; the former main character is all but defeated, most of the faces you knew are gone, the music is depressing and you go up against a complete sociopath, all while being sort-of manipulated.
Dual Destinies has a lot of blood, and apparently a lot of stuff happens offscreen.
Last edited by Thane on Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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I'll try an pick up where I can but a lot has been said.
BP as you said for a big government project there should be prototypes and research notes and the like. I'd argue that Ponco and Clonco could be seen as those prototypes. While 'Emotion-reading technology' isn't quite the same, I'd see it as relevant enough to be a precursor for 'thought-reading technology'. However it's still a massive leap, and it doesn't explain why no one chases them down for it. It goes back into the realm of "bad and unexplained" as you'd think Metis in the situations she was on would ensure she'd reclaim Widget. Hell she could have made it one of her demands when she took hostages.
Then the argument seems to go onto how Athena HAD to be so young rather than by choice.
If it had been done earlier at the start, Phoenix would have taken the case and solved it based on the assumption that Phoenix takes cases for underdogs and someone would have tipped him off on the controversy surrounding the case. However most of Phoenix's cases occur via some connection to one of the people Phoenix knows. If it was pushed back before Phoenix's disbarment then Phoenix wouldn't know Apollo or Athena, so Phoenix wouldn't know Clay, so Phoenix would have no connection to the Space Centre at all. It's just another thing that makes him unlikely to take the case. Even then I don't know why they couldn't have altered it in a different way to make Athena's age fit.
Quote:
On a related note, they certainly couldn't push Blackquill's sentence longer than this because the case wouldn't then be set "one year after the events of GS4". They couldn't even set this case to before Phoenix dropped out of law because it's tied to one of the reasons there's even a dark age of law in the first place.
Again I'm not sure it had to be set "one year" after, Athena's model looks old enough to pass for 21-22 she didn't really have that much of a 'big brother' dynamic with Apollo anyway I felt. They could have extended Blackquill's sentence for little to no cost, perhaps they adjust Trucy's sprite a little to be taller but other than that it wouldn't have made a difference to other people's sprites to just stick a few years on there. They don't benefit from any of the past events of GS4 anyway trying to maintain as much distance as possible from that stuff. Trucy sadly doesn't contribute anything to the game either, except for being a hostage at the end anyway, a role which they could have done with Pearl who they brought back for it.
Though it's all things that could have been done. Perhaps they couldn't have done any of it, I'm not especially convinced they couldn't have extended it on either end of the time continuum to age Athena 2 or 3 years. The problem with Athena is the lack of information...if they release a new game about Athena they could solve a tonne of these problems like that. Athena's relatives could turn out to be prosecutors or lawyers, not even especially famous ones just any connection. Blackquill could talk more about the past and Athena, perhaps a murder set in a prison where Aura is murdered to get him involved. They investigate Athena's mother's place at somepoint and find documents about
Sorry if I missed a bit Rubia, time zones make things difficult, just quote something at me if you'd like a specific response.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Thane wrote:
If you don't mind, I'd like to answer this question as well.
The very concept is utterly nonsensical; Phoenix and Blackquill were suspected of committing crime, so now everybody does it. What the hell is this, high school? What about Godot, Kristoph and Manfred von Karma? The latter was a prosecutor who was suspected of bribing and intimidating his way through the legal world for about 40 years!
Also, how on earth can trials proceed as normal when absolutely everybody knows what the dark age of the law is? Why doesn't this impact the way the story plays out? Why doesn't this force players to think differently about the ways trials are done? And while the Mood Matrix should never have been able to be used as proof in the first place, the very thought of using it during the dark age of the law when apparently everyone forges evidence is absolutely ludicrous.
It's just a very bad case of "tell, don't show", and it's not even a well-thought-out idea. The only time we ever came into contact with the unnecessarily vague concept at all was during 5-3, but even then they merely talked about it, and the villain was obvious from the outset.
I really don't understand why this should be considered a darker title than other Ace Attorney games at all. If anything, Dual Destinies is a lot milder than its predecessors, especially Apollo Justice. I don't know about you, but I think that game is actually pretty eerie; the former main character is all but defeated, most of the faces you knew are gone, the music is depressing and you go up against a complete sociopath, all while being sort-of manipulated.
Dual Destinies has a lot of blood, and apparently a lot of stuff happens offscreen.
The very concept is utterly nonsensical; Phoenix and Blackquill were suspected of committing crime, so now everybody does it. What the hell is this, high school? What about Godot, Kristoph and Manfred von Karma? The latter was a prosecutor who was suspected of bribing and intimidating his way through the legal world for about 40 years!
Also, how on earth can trials proceed as normal when absolutely everybody knows what the dark age of the law is? Why doesn't this impact the way the story plays out? Why doesn't this force players to think differently about the ways trials are done? And while the Mood Matrix should never have been able to be used as proof in the first place, the very thought of using it during the dark age of the law when apparently everyone forges evidence is absolutely ludicrous.
It's just a very bad case of "tell, don't show", and it's not even a well-thought-out idea. The only time we ever came into contact with the unnecessarily vague concept at all was during 5-3, but even then they merely talked about it, and the villain was obvious from the outset.
I really don't understand why this should be considered a darker title than other Ace Attorney games at all. If anything, Dual Destinies is a lot milder than its predecessors, especially Apollo Justice. I don't know about you, but I think that game is actually pretty eerie; the former main character is all but defeated, most of the faces you knew are gone, the music is depressing and you go up against a complete sociopath, all while being sort-of manipulated.
Dual Destinies has a lot of blood, and apparently a lot of stuff happens offscreen.
Yes. YES. Excuse me while I kiss your feet.
(......Ack! I've run out of snide comments!)
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Thane wrote:
The very concept is utterly nonsensical; Phoenix and Blackquill were suspected of committing crime, so now everybody does it. What the hell is this, high school? What about Godot, Kristoph and Manfred von Karma? The latter was a prosecutor who was suspected of bribing and intimidating his way through the legal world for about 40 years!
Also, how on earth can trials proceed as normal when absolutely everybody knows what the dark age of the law is? Why doesn't this impact the way the story plays out? Why doesn't this force players to think differently about the ways trials are done? And while the Mood Matrix should never have been able to be used as proof in the first place, the very thought of using it during the dark age of the law when apparently everyone forges evidence is absolutely ludicrous.
It's just a very bad case of "tell, don't show", and it's not even a well-thought-out idea. The only time we ever came into contact with the unnecessarily vague concept at all was during 5-3, but even then they merely talked about it, and the villain was obvious from the outset.
I really don't understand why this should be considered a darker title than other Ace Attorney games at all. If anything, Dual Destinies is a lot milder than its predecessors, especially Apollo Justice. I don't know about you, but I think that game is actually pretty eerie; the former main character is all but defeated, most of the faces you knew are gone, the music is depressing and you go up against a complete sociopath, all while being sort-of manipulated.
Dual Destinies has a lot of blood, and apparently a lot of stuff happens offscreen.
Also, how on earth can trials proceed as normal when absolutely everybody knows what the dark age of the law is? Why doesn't this impact the way the story plays out? Why doesn't this force players to think differently about the ways trials are done? And while the Mood Matrix should never have been able to be used as proof in the first place, the very thought of using it during the dark age of the law when apparently everyone forges evidence is absolutely ludicrous.
It's just a very bad case of "tell, don't show", and it's not even a well-thought-out idea. The only time we ever came into contact with the unnecessarily vague concept at all was during 5-3, but even then they merely talked about it, and the villain was obvious from the outset.
I really don't understand why this should be considered a darker title than other Ace Attorney games at all. If anything, Dual Destinies is a lot milder than its predecessors, especially Apollo Justice. I don't know about you, but I think that game is actually pretty eerie; the former main character is all but defeated, most of the faces you knew are gone, the music is depressing and you go up against a complete sociopath, all while being sort-of manipulated.
Dual Destinies has a lot of blood, and apparently a lot of stuff happens offscreen.
I pretty much agree
I did hear a theory that Phoenix and Edgeworth exposing people like von Karma, Godot, Calisto Yew, Gavin, and
Spoiler: GK2
This is the part I disagree with. I actually thought the Mood Matrix was considered acceptable BECAUSE it was a Dark Age of the Law. Like, "These are dark times. Prosecutors are murderers, attorneys are doing anything to get a not guilty verdict, and emotions are considered acceptable evidence." I'm sure if anybody but Athena used the Mood Matrix, Blackquill would tell them to stop fucking around and present real proof. The Phantom even says as much in the final case that people aren't trusting Athena and her methods
I would've liked if they brought up during 5-3 that many students were enamored by Phoenix Wright and his disbarment caused more students to forge and take on the "ends justify the means" outlook. Shit, it's pretty easy to think of ways that they could've emphasized the Dark Age more
I think the reason Apollo Justice is eerie is because of these three tracks (ESPECIALLY the first one):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUUOVls2GkM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtw4xQDgKjM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmZ4NoTDtsQ
I remember playing the first case in the middle of the night and actually getting shivers down my spine because of the Thrill Theme (I did think the Phantom's thing in DD was creepy, too). I don't understand how a murder during a poker game was more eerie than a courtroom bombing where a mad bomber nearly bludgeons your friends to death
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Monroe, I'd say they actually presented Phoenix this way. Means more than likely presented Phoenix as a role model of "the end justifies the means" ideology.
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Nearavex wrote:
As I read that, Bad Player shouldn't really speak of "trying to create a problem where there's none"... it does have a bit hypocritical feel to it.
Athena is an actual character in the game. If she's poorly designed, of course it's a problem. Rubia was trying to bring in an element that I think was irrelevant :P
Quote:
The only problem I see that remains unexplained is Widget... I don't really know why do you expect 100% realism on the matter from Ace Attorney, but let's go along.
It's not about being realistic, but about being consistent within itself.
Suppose there's a story that takes place in a world with flying cars. Let's say that they're cheap/affordable, eco-friendly, safe, comfortable, easy to manufacture, and very fast. Now let's also say that regular IRL cars are still in widespread use. This would be unrealistic, because while a flying car itself isn't that far-fetched, it doesn't make sense for regular grounded cars to still be used when there are flying ones.
Similarly, it doesn't make sense for mind-reading technology to exist at the level it does in Widget, and yet not be present anywhere else in the world.
Quote:
In fact, what bothers me is that at the same time you are fine with pocket holographic projectors in little girl's possession being made not after 2011 and weaponized battle robots being built by a single person without any permissions whatsoever in the middle of space facility.
Yeah, Little Thief is kind of weird, but while holographs like that would certainly be useful, they aren't a world-revolutionizing technology like remote mind-reading. Also, they were studying robotics... at a space center..... in addition to emotions............. wait, what ._.
Anyway, don't assume I don't have a problem with something just because I don't bring it up. This is the Athena thread, not the "everything you think is wrong with DD" thread. (DD has plenty of problems besides Athena, after all.)
Quote:
I can't help but to think most of these Athena issues are kinda silly. Mostly because of how you selectively pick on realism issues in an universe filled with ridiculousness and respond to the counter-arguments... I'm really sorry to say that, but I can't see it as anything else... There were some huge chunks of Rubia's text that weren't responded to at all.
Yeah, I trimmed down some of the quotes to make the posts less big. I may not have quote/replied to every paragraph, but I responded to all of Rubia's points. Or at least, I've tried to.
(And again, not mentioning something in this thread doesn't mean we don't feel there's no problems with it...)
Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
This argument... is getting really weird. I'm going to try to pull it back.
:3
I can barely tell whose side you're on at this point! Dx
Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
Of course he didn't have to take the case. Yet, and I notice people seem to forget, Aura was around. She said she fought for a retrial, but was turned down. She was turned down because she couldn't find a lawyer to take his case. If Phoenix was still available, couldn't she have turned to him to help? People are usually desperate when they turn to him, in any case.
(omg, I'm fuzzy on sooooo many details of DD, stupid Japanese ~_~)
Okay, fair enough. Simple fix, though: Aura couldn't get a retrial for some other reason. Maybe at the time, she just didn't have enough evidence to create enough doubt in Blackquill's guilt to justify getting a retrial. I think that would then allow them to push back UR-1 a bit, making Athena older and giving her more time to get her studies done.
And about pushing back Simon's execution... I imagine they wanted to just keep going with their "the next game takes place 1 year after the previous one" thing, and they needed 5-4/5-5 to take place right before Simon's execution to make it DRAMATIC~
...Of course, pushing back Simon's execution (while keeping DD at the same point in the timeline) may have been better, because it was so stupid how they were like "Nick got his badge back and recruit Athena just so they could save Simon!", and they were all going to just let him die.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Nearavex wrote:
Maybe someone else try to word these problems now...? I can't take them seriously when Bad Player inquires about them, sorry...
That you have the nerve, the sheer AUDACITY to criticize someone who is debating seriously in that manner when your posts are either nothing but unconstructive, random thoughts and assumptions or excuses like "I'm to lazy to give explanations" is unbelievable.
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
Y'know
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I didn't want to be rude, but... I really can't take that seriously .-. I thought I was just being honest there...
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Nearavex wrote:
Well, yeah? That's how I feel about it and you can't exactly change how you feel about stuff, sorry...?
I didn't want to be rude, but... I really can't take that seriously .-. I thought I was just being honest there...
I didn't want to be rude, but... I really can't take that seriously .-. I thought I was just being honest there...
Well perhaps go into detail and it'll turn from being an offensive dismissal into a legitimate query.
Why can't you take it seriously? What's wrong with BP's opinions?
Made by Chesu+Zombee
You thought you could be safe in your courts, with your laws and attorneys to protect you. In this world only I am law, my word is fact, my power is absolute.
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Perhaps it was something about the stuff a page or two ago and the way how there were some comments regarding that in random places, like this one here, to give the first example that comes to mind...
I dunno, I'm actually completely fine with it, just having some fun and distance to oneself, but taking all that "problem stuff" seriously is a whole other thing.
Thane wrote:
random thoughts and assumptions
...What is wrong about these, anyway?
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Thane wrote:
The very concept is utterly nonsensical; Phoenix and Blackquill were suspected of committing crime, so now everybody does it. What the hell is this, high school?
Kindergarten.
Pierre wrote:
Quote:
On a related note, they certainly couldn't push Blackquill's sentence longer than this because the case wouldn't then be set "one year after the events of GS4". They couldn't even set this case to before Phoenix dropped out of law because it's tied to one of the reasons there's even a dark age of law in the first place.
Again I'm not sure it had to be set "one year" after, Athena's model looks old enough to pass for 21-22 she didn't really have that much of a 'big brother' dynamic with Apollo anyway I felt. They could have extended Blackquill's sentence for little to no cost, perhaps they adjust Trucy's sprite a little to be taller but other than that it wouldn't have made a difference to other people's sprites to just stick a few years on there. They don't benefit from any of the past events of GS4 anyway trying to maintain as much distance as possible from that stuff. Trucy sadly doesn't contribute anything to the game either, except for being a hostage at the end anyway, a role which they could have done with Pearl who they brought back for it.
Though it's all things that could have been done. Perhaps they couldn't have done any of it, I'm not especially convinced they couldn't have extended it on either end of the time continuum to age Athena 2 or 3 years. The problem with Athena is the lack of information...if they release a new game about Athena they could solve a tonne of these problems like that. Athena's relatives could turn out to be prosecutors or lawyers, not even especially famous ones just any connection. Blackquill could talk more about the past and Athena, perhaps a murder set in a prison where Aura is murdered to get him involved. They investigate Athena's mother's place at somepoint and find documents about
Sorry if I missed a bit Rubia, time zones make things difficult, just quote something at me if you'd like a specific response.
...Should I be worried about that Kristoph smilie? Anyway, you've summarized well my most crucial point - the lack of info. This game gave us more questions than answers, but it was written as if it was the beginning of something, rather than an intermediate of anything.
Since this game's timeline was set before anything else could be, I don't think it matters how things could have been if it was another few years over. Either way, Athena skipping 2, 3 grades compared to 5, doesn't make a difference to the trial of 5-5. If Athena was trying to impress Blackquill and prove to him that she didn't need his protection anymore, she didn't do such a good job.
Honestly, I don't see the point in arguing over consistency when considering one of the biggest plotholes that ever happened was in AJ: the six, seven year leap. If they can't even keep the timeline consistent, where does everything else go?
In any case, the original question wasn't about whether or not Phoenix would take the case; it was about eliminating the possibility that Phoenix could have taken the case. I'm truly of the opinion that Phoenix didn't care either way, and things would have ended up as thus. Yet, if Takumi can make up any excuse to let Phoenix's badge get taken away, I don't mind Yamazaki making up excuses to let Phoenix's badge return.
Bad Player wrote:
Quote:
In fact, what bothers me is that at the same time you are fine with pocket holographic projectors in little girl's possession being made not after 2011 and weaponized battle robots being built by a single person without any permissions whatsoever in the middle of space facility.
Yeah, Little Thief is kind of weird, but while holographs like that would certainly be useful, they aren't a world-revolutionizing technology like remote mind-reading. Also, they were studying robotics... at a space center..... in addition to emotions............. wait, what ._.
It's everything a child could dream about hi-tech futuristic stuff rolled up into a single place! Now all they need are self-levitating devices. Heck, let's put that function into Widget too, so Athena can fly. :D
Quote:
Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
This argument... is getting really weird. I'm going to try to pull it back.
:3
I can barely tell whose side you're on at this point! Dx
But, but it's tough arguing for a side I'm not on! <:3 Now why I am even bothering with it is because I see most of the people complaining about her and other things are asking a lot of questions. My inner justice drives me to answer as much as I can.
Curse you inner justice. You drive me to insomnia.
Quote:
Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
Of course he didn't have to take the case. Yet, and I notice people seem to forget, Aura was around. She said she fought for a retrial, but was turned down. She was turned down because she couldn't find a lawyer to take his case. If Phoenix was still available, couldn't she have turned to him to help? People are usually desperate when they turn to him, in any case.
(omg, I'm fuzzy on sooooo many details of DD, stupid Japanese ~_~)
Okay, fair enough. Simple fix, though: Aura couldn't get a retrial for some other reason. Maybe at the time, she just didn't have enough evidence to create enough doubt in Blackquill's guilt to justify getting a retrial. I think that would then allow them to push back UR-1 a bit, making Athena older and giving her more time to get her studies done.
Yet her theory of placing suspicion on Athena was set from that trial back then. Edgeworth simply recycled her theory to his own use. That means, they let her testify to some extent, left on record. Since she was the only one arguing on that side, the courts then disregarded it. The situation changes big-time just by having someone like Phoenix Wright on her side.
On a slightly related-but-maybe-not note, if Edgeworth didn't bother to check that one tape before this trial, it likely suggests that this case wasn't his problem until he found its discarded case files while he was managing evidence transferal that February. Once he found it, it became his problem since no other prosecutor was tending to it.
Quote:
...Of course, pushing back Simon's execution (while keeping DD at the same point in the timeline) may have been better, because it was so stupid how they were like "Nick got his badge back and recruit Athena just so they could save Simon!", and they were all going to just let him die.
They were fitting too many independent stories into one, and this is what happens when you stuff a game with too much. Yamazaki's team is certainly a bright and imaginative group, but they can take things a little far sometimes.
Then again, this game has practically launched into space. Clay's dream has been realized from the get-go.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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@Nearavex: I think Pierre made a good post so I'm going to quote him.
Pierre wrote:
Well perhaps go into detail and it'll turn from being an offensive dismissal into a legitimate query.
Why can't you take it seriously? What's wrong with BP's opinions?
Why can't you take it seriously? What's wrong with BP's opinions?
In short... more detail.
@Everyone else: I understand all your points, but let's try to keep things a bit more civil, yeah? If you have a problem with someone, I'm not saying you can't voice your grievances, but try to do so in a way that's not offensive/rude--even if you feel that the member in question is being offensive/rude to another user.
@Ruba: I don't even know if I have much to respond to for you now xD If they changed the reason she couldn't get a retrial, I think the problem disappears. For instance, suppose the paperwork for a retrial required the defendant's signature--which Simon absolutely refused to give. Then even if Aura had some other (non-Nick) lawyer, she wouldn't have gotten her retrial, and UR-1 can be pushed back a bit without creating any plot holes.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
Y'know
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I can't get into detail, because I don't really know how to explain. I mean, I said it, I just felt that way. .-.
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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It's one thing to disagree with an opinion, even if you can't come up with a counterargument, or reasons why you feel the way you do. But I think the reason other people got annoyed with you is because you acted dismissive (saying you couldn't take it seriously) without providing any reasoning.
If you can't think of ways to verbalize your feelings and want to drop out of the conversation, that's fine. If you want to just take a break in order to take some time to think of a way to express your argument in words, that's fine too. If you want to just stick around in the thread, that's also fine. Just note that if you haven't already articulated your opinion and why you believe it, making a post stating that you disagree with someone without providing any reasons why is not very constructive to the discussion.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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BP, you make respectable points, and it forces me to think on it. I don't think I've enjoyed a better debate than what I'm having now.
And to answer you, I wanted to make sure your "other reason" wasn't only about the evidence. There was plenty of evidence submitted in that trial, even if most of the good stuff wasn't seen or was disregarded.
I keep bringing up how it's possible for Phoenix and Aura to get a retrial, given that Athena had yet to leave abroad and they use her to convince Blacky otherwise. Yes, everything does have to match up just right for everything to work out, but that's always been happening. The fact that it's possible in some way means the scenario team couldn't risk being called out by leaving that possibility in there. (The fact that they still managed to flub up several things about the present timeline is another matter.) Besides, with the trilogy already well intact, they didn't want to touch upon the events that transpired just before Phoenix goes on vacation.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
Y'know
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I'd try to get constructive in these discussions, but I don't really know how to, you know... I don't really know what should support with arguments in the first place, let alone have some. <.<
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