Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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She's a Mary Sue: Prosecution...Why are you beating this point into the ground? Mary Sue, is a VERY vague, and much overused excuse to hate a character. Why on earth would you even argue the term in this court? It's meaning changes from person to person as an excuse to point out the flaws, or lack there of, of a character who just seems to tick people off. Now tell me...Is that even fair? Well weather it's fair or not, Mary Sue is too flexible a label to hold any ground in this court. Why according to some definitions Mia is a Mary Sue. Yeah wrap your head around that one! (She's not by the way just by some definitions of the word she is.) The point is there is no reason to even argue that Athena is a Mary Sue because the term is so flexible you can literally make a claim that most characters in nearly every form of media are Mary Sues making the term...pointless.
It's not all that vague, if you wanted me to refine the term I'd define her as a Black-Hole Sue, one who draws absolutely everything towards her. Everyone knows what a Mary Sue is, a character who is so perfect and 'blessed' beyond believability to the point of annoyance. People point out she is flawed and traumatised but it's not done well, the worst of her trauma is in case 3 and she overcomes it so quickly I'm surprised they bring it back and even then someone always comes to rescue her so she never really shows any strength herself. Mary Sue is a vague term but really it's just the result of the other problems.
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She got her degree too young: This is true. However this isn't the first time Phoenix Wright games have done this. But I have a theory why they made her so young. Phoenix is now in his thirties. Apollo in his twenties. And now we have Athena in her teens. Capcom has successfully made sure they will never run out of attorney games. Let me clarify. By placing someone as young as Athena in here, if Phoenix were to ever get too old to be the protagonist, he has two young Attorneys just waiting to take his place. It sounds cruel...but it's true. Feenee ain't getting any younger people and Capcom wants to make sure one of it's best selling franchises has insurance. It's sad that Athena had to be the one because now everyone's jumping on it. Also, and I hate to bring this up, but Franziska Von Karma got her license at 14...FOURTEEN! Even if she is a "Von Karma" that is freaking nuts! There is NO excuse for anyone to get their licence that early...So that's why I say in Phoenix Wright land an attorney's badge at 18 is no biggy, prodigy or not.
I don't think age and getting too old are really a problem, they made Phoenix a protagonist in his thirties and look at Von Karma, he looks plenty old and he was still in the business. If they got on so long that Phoenix's age caused him to retire I hardly imagine Apollo and Athena would be young bucks as well to relate to the players they'd probably just bring in someone new at the standard 20-22 age range and tell a new story.
And no I'm afraid Franziska Von Karma being a "Von Karma" isn't as nuts for some as others. She had an extremely influential father in the law industry who took it upon himself to educate his children. I can believe he could pull strings and educate her to meet his goals and get it on her own. Also it's not a case of Franziska got it so early at fourteen, it's a case of Athena got it in SEVEN YEARS. From her first school, with no real outstanding intellectual ability, with no connections of influence in the field of law to help her into a university. For Franziska, she at least has some elements in her favour, Athena has literally nothing to justify it or stretch believability.
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She's a "Prodigy": I think only Phoenix thinks of her as a prodigy. He sees her talent and is impressed. Nothing wrong with that. We've had more "prodigies" in Phoenix Wright than any game I've seen thus far. Cause apparently every prodigy in the world likes to migrate to LAokio! (My pet name for Phoenix Wright land.) Honestly I'd be surprised if she WASN'T a prodigy. Does that make it right? No...Does it really matter in the long run? I think not.
Well she's a prodigy by virtue of her record-time-law degree. That's the same virtue by which Franny and Klavier are considered prodigies and she's outdone both of them.
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She's too "Liked":...Really?...This is one of the "reasons" my client is being accused of being a "Mary Sue"? Ok...Let me put this into perspective. Most characters in game, dislike Phoenix and are for the most part indifferent to Apollo. Now for once in the entire series a Lawyer is liked and it's considered a FLAW!? If that isn't some screwed up logic I don't know what is. Let me explain just how screwed up it is to think being "liked" is a flaw in this particular case. Phoenix often is liked by people he's close to...but that's about it. Why because he uses tactics in the courtroom and even in normal conversation that are unconventional. By pushing peoples buttons and making them angry he digs up peoples innermost secrets to blatantly reveals them in the courtroom. Honestly...if you had someone who kept digging into your personal affairs what would you think of them. Apollo on the other hand for the most part completely ignored half the time. he sometimes even frightens people with his hair...don't know why...I mean no wonder he's screaming all the time, everyone, even, the prosecutor, takes over his cases! It was only ever in Dual Destinies that he got a case to himself without having anyone hijacking it, or the prosecution agreeing with him. Not only that but there are characters who actually like him! (Other than Trucy, Kaliver, and Phoenix, who have always liked him...they just ignore him allot.) This being said, Athena get's a single case in the entire game, and it's defending her friend. Of course the friends of her friends are gonna like her for what she's doing. And by the way, I can name at least THREE people, in game, who don't like Athena. Aura Blackquill, Professor Means, and the Phantom. Sure Professor Means ACTED like he liked her...but I have a feeling he HATED being pushed aside as defense. And in case 5 two people are clearly willing to sacrifice her for their own personal means. So in the end I feel this particular argument has no grounds. Just because Blakquill was willing to sacrifice himself for the daughter of his loved mentor, and Phoenix was worried about her, doesn't make her a badly written character.
Athena does offensive digging into people's secrets too y'know? In fact I'd say she does it WORSE than Phoenix or Apollo does. This new 'emotional reveal' can come across as real difficult and painful for the individual involved as it's much more personal to them. In particular, I'm talking about how Athena 'outed' Robin that seemed really heartless but she does it without a second thought or any hesitation. Fortunately Robin feels liberated by it but given her hesitation and resistance before I thought that came off as pretty poorly handled in the situation. Also a character disliking someone doesn't really mean much if they are the villain and Aura, Means and the Phantom ALL played the villain at points in the story. It makes them seem more villainous when they dislike such a beloved character. Of all the characters that had meaningful interactions with Athena who weren't villainous they all seemed to like Athena.
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Similar Subject: Oh and by the way Phoenix was also worried about Trucy! IDK what the heck you guys mean when you said he was ONLY worried about Athena. He was just dwelling on the subject because he was responsible for her and if she turned out to be a murderer it would be his fault for bringing her there. He was very confused for a bit, but once he got his head clear (thanks to Maya) he was able to focus on what needed to be done...It's like you're expecting him to turn his back on Athena in favor of Trucy and if you know anything about Phoenix you'd know he'd never do that. That and this wasn't his first kidnapping experience. Hell this wasn't even his first high pressure experience! So he knew dwelling on Trucy's situation wasn't gonna get him anywhere so he focused on doing his job.
Well...yeah...I would expect him to show a great deal more concern Trucy than he did for Athena. Sure he'd been in a kidnapping experience before but does that mean it's going to be any less traumatic? Also Maya was a friend at the time he'd known for like a year or so, Trucy is his adopted DAUGHTER of over 7 years, sure Trucy is capable and can take care of herself but I still felt that in a moment that should have belonged to Phoenix and Apollo freaking out the plot was sidetracked by the heavy focus on Athena. I mean I understand that yes, this would have to be the time to reveal Athena's backstory and everything but I don't felt they gave them the moment they deserved for Trucy before the Athena-truck came along to draw focus. It's the sort of situation I'd expect him to say "Gotta do this...can't let Trucy down" but it came across more as "I can't let Athena think she killed her mother" and granted Phoenix probably would care about both those things but...that first part wasn't there.
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She shouldn't have a special "MAGICAL" power: Well if we go by that logic, Maya shouldn't be able to channel spirits the way she does, Apollo shouldn't be able to see little twitches, and Phoenix shouldn't be able to see Psyche Locks. This is a VIDEO GAME and your expecting it to work like the real world, when...it clearly isn't. Take the way Maya channels spirits. Her whole Physical appearance changes. If something like this happened in real life, you'd be able to have full conversations with your dead grandmother and see her as she looked just as she died only in a young woman's body! The point I'm making here is Phoenix Wright takes place in a world all it's own. It's set it's own laws and takes place in it's own time. That's like saying Pokemon takes place in real life and follows our laws JUST cause they mention REAL places in the real world. CLEARLY, cause all our mice shoot electricity in the real world...no wait...they freaking don't!
I don't have a problem with her having a power, it's just her power is unexplained and comes from nowhere. Maya's comes from spiritual power and her family's bloodline. Apollo's BARELY counts as a power (it can be taught to Phoenix after all so it's perfectly possible for non-Gramayres to detect twitches at some level) but it's also in the bloodline of his family, it has a recognisable source. We are told Athena has super hearing to the point she can "hear the voices of the heart", this is never explained in any detail, nor is there any source. Not from Father, not from Mother, not from a radioactive spider bite. She just HAS it, I'd have bought it if it was just a function of Widget, like a microphone or something perhaps something that takes physiological readings and makes a gander at what emotions the person is experiencing at the time but no...it's a power of Athena's and it comes from nowhere.
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She just pops out of nowhere: So did Apollo, what's you're point?
Apollo was introduced in "Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney" everyone knew he was coming and it was a new launch of Ace Attorney on the 3DS. Hell for a while we didn't even know Phoenix Wright was in it but we did know Apollo was going to be there. This game was advertised as "Phoenix Wright: Dual Destinies" I don't have a problem with introducing new characters but Athena came out of left field and hijacked a game that had featured Phoenix and Apollo heavily in their marketing to the point folks thought they'd be the main characters. Which ties neatly into this:
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She's too involved with the games story:...Sigh...Has it not occurred to you that she as a PLAYABLE CHARACTER was originally supposed to have her own game...and maybe, JUST MAYBE, because people would not stop bitching about Apollo, (who by the way is a great character as well) JUST MAYBE her title was turned into a Phoenix Wright title so that people would stop bitching that there was no phoenix in this. So if we go by that logic, the fact that she's a new PLAYABLE Lawyer, means she SHOULD have gotten her own game by right...however...she was the ONLY lawyer (other than Mia) who didn't get her own game. Edgeworth is a PROSECUTOR and he got his own game, TWO
OF THEM! And you're saying that Athena...Is too involved...in the debut of her character. *smaks lips*
What kind of logic is that?! Seriously, I feel as if you guys are just complaining for the sake of complaining!
OF THEM! And you're saying that Athena...Is too involved...in the debut of her character. *smaks lips*
What kind of logic is that?! Seriously, I feel as if you guys are just complaining for the sake of complaining!Was she originally supposed to have her own game? That's a pretty big claim and the first I've heard of it. In fact unless you have some evidence to support that theory I don't think I'm really going to entertain it for much. People were either hoping for Apollo Justice 2 or a return for Phoenix to the courts and the advertising and title made to indicate it was going to be the latter. Do you have some evidence it was going to be an Athena game originally? Because the theory doesn't fly at all without evidence. The problem is they sold it as a story about Phoenix and yet Athena gets more screen time than the protagonist.
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She's too good of a lawyer for her age: She's won a single case and she wasn't alone. Her second case she nearly lost to a PAYNE because she was alone. Even in her own case her inexperience shows, it's made up by her intuition and resources. She's not perfect and yeah you could argue the fact that she's good enough to win ONE case against Blackquill is impressive. But this goes back to the fact that she became a lawyer in a world where a 14 year old prosecutor can win EVERY case they have until they face Phoenix...And saying that it's JUST because she's a "Von Karma" is NOT a valid excuse. Sure he could have brought her up on law. But to pass ANY bar exam you need some sort of law degree. I'm guessing Germerica has some super law training program where you can get all your studies in in a couple of years.
I don't really have much of a problem with this it's not a complaint I've made much at least, all my complaints with this bit are covered earlier in the 'prodigy' section so I feel I'd be treading old ground. I wouldn't say she's an exceptional lawyer on her own at least no more that the other lawyers.
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She has a Psychology degree: OK...You can MAJOR, and MINOR in any field. She didn't get a doctorate, she just studied it while studying law. The fact that she did this by age 18 is ridiculous, but so is an 8 year old sprouting a full woman's body.
It's a suggestion, but the degree she talks about 'psychology' gives the impression she's had time to study it professionally which is still a bit to ask on top of her what must be hell-bent study of law. Either way the fact there's no information about it leaves her so vague and confusing.
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Athena's back-story is just for show and it won't effect her in later games: Have you ever had a traumatic experience? I have...It happened when I was 7...I'm 24 and I STILL haven't gotten completely over it...But Like Athena, I've chosen to not let it cripple me. I'm not gonna dwell all emo in a corner. If she did fall back on her traumas that would be like taking a step back. And in Psycology taking 1 step back means you need to take 3 steps forward to get back to where you were to begin with. The next game hasn't come out yet. So the fact that your assuming the writers will just erase her character's trauma is pure conjecture. But don't expect it to hold her back and make her incompetent ether.
Well perhaps not but after all that went down in the final case I'd have thought she'd have gotten closure on the matter since it wrapped up all the mysteries of her past that we knew about and unlocked her repressed thoughts and cleared her mind of all doubts. If that's not overcoming a traumatic experience in the AA world I don't know what will. It might not matter much in later games, they might just casually mention how the case turned everything around for her but I doubt she'll relapse into 'breakdown' mode again.
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Similar Subject: Did you know some people with disorders are geniuses? I personally believe that Athena has PTSD and Bipolar. Though not confirmed it's a strong possibility, and would explain why she's good at her job. But that's just a theory based on what I know.
Big assumptions and not necessarily true on all cases. PTSD also isn't one of the disorders associated with such 'boosts'. I think you are referring to Autistic Savants, who have very focused narrow interests and plenty of social problems to come with and she doesn't display the social awkwardness or intense focused interests of someone with Autism.
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She's ANOTHER Lawyer
Have folks actually made this complaint before?
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So here we are at the end of my little debate. But before I go I must make one thing clear. Characters in Phoenix wright are flawed, VERY flawed, in their writing. HOWEVER; the usual case is that they are so likable that these flaws are ignored. Take Godot for example, in case 3/5 he, as a prosecutor, was going to let a girl he dragged into the mess he caused, as well as the sister of the person he loved, take the fall for murdering the MOTHER of the person he loved, all for the sake of a revenge plot that depended SOLELY on Phoenix's decision to go to a cold mountain...which NOT ONLY did he not tell the police but he didn't tell Phoenix due to misplaced anger and a grudge...HELL he could have easily explained this to Maya at ANY point and none of the events in case 3/5 would ever have happened. Maya could have easily explained to Pearl "Listen, I know it was you're mothers wish...but you can never call this spirit...SHE'S EVIL" Then badda-bing badda-boom, case closed, catastrophe avoided! But this was all forgiven...because he cried blood at the end and is an overall cool character. Despite this seriously twisted messed up plot he came up with people, and admittedly I, like him. Not as a villain...but as a character. And so I leave you with this...If your so focused on weather a person is a Mary Sue or not. Consider this...Did you enjoy your time with that character despite any flaws? If the answer is yes, then the rest doesn't matter. If you enjoy yourself and continue enjoying yourself, then what does it matter? I for one enjoyed Athena's character and hope to see more of her in the future. As as for all of you who don't enjoy her character...that's fine. Everyone has an opinion. But to label a character as one thing when each character, like each person, is different...It's the same as being labeled a freak or monster. Sure it's a descriptive word, but it was made in the vain of being hurtful to fanfic writers. Characters with little to no flaws exist...But I do not believe Athena is one of them.
Well sure I liked bits of Athena's character but she detracted from the overall experience of the game with all these little niggly bits. I recognise there's room for an energetic optimistic go-getting female lawyer in the team to counteract off Apollo's intense seriousness and Phoenix's laid-back wisened calmer approach but she's got all this unanswered baggage that just drag her down for me. Then you add in the fact she's in our face almost all the time and it drags down everything with her a bit.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Something I do want to say regarding the ages of Franziska/Athena (Franzy was 13 by the way). Athena got her badge in seven years. How many years did it take Franziska? Certainly not thirteen because I doubt she was studying law at the age of one. Or two. Or even six. Where's the line drawn? Kids have certain development issues with learning. I don't really believe she could even start studying until nine, and I still have a hard time buying that.
As for von Karma's influence? Athena had Nick. He helped her become a lawyer and inspired her. Even if Nick was disbarred, he still had influence to change the legal system as we know it (Jurist System). He could probably help a lawyer squeeze through the system
Also, think about this. If you were in a dilemma where you had to learn a Physics college course in a year or a family member (or someone close to you) would die, could you do it? I definitely think I could. Anyone could with stakes that high. Athena had seven years plus an advantage in the field of psychology (does she even have a degree in psychology?) Her knowledge of psychology could also help her become a lawyer.
Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
But, but it's tough arguing for a side I'm not on! <:3 Now why I am even bothering with it is because I see most of the people complaining about her and other things are asking a lot of questions. My inner justice drives me to answer as much as I can.
Curse you inner justice. You drive me to insomnia.
[
Curse you inner justice. You drive me to insomnia.
[
Think about it this way. The people against Athena are Prosecutors and the people supporting her are defense attorneys. You're the lawyer who just wants to find the truth
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Something I do want to say regarding the ages of Franziska/Athena (Franzy was 13 by the way). Athena got her badge in seven years. How many years did it take Franziska? Certainly not thirteen because I doubt she was studying law at the age of one. Or two. Or even six. Where's the line drawn? Kids have certain development issues with learning. I don't really believe she could even start studying until nine, and I still have a hard time buying that.
Couldn't start studying until nine? That's awfully late for any kid, I started school at five and I was a regular kid. Now lets take Von Karma, he knows exactly how he wants his daughter to turn out, he home-schools her and teaches her the Von Karma way. He accepts nothing less than perfection and I imagine disciplines her severely should she step out of line.
She probably had way more time than starting at 9 and probably had greater challenges than any kid the same age because of her lineage, perhaps there's even a part of her that hates her father for it but it's certainly more plausible than Athena's 7-year exam crunch.
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As for von Karma's influence? Athena had Nick. He helped her become a lawyer and inspired her. Even if Nick was disbarred, he still had influence to change the legal system as we know it (Jurist System). He could probably help a lawyer squeeze through the system
Prove it. For all we know Nick could have been disgraced at the time, though it's said he had a friend overseas help him with the Jurist system that could be Franziska or maybe Edgeworth at the time. I think Phoenix's credibility might have been at an all time low outside those who knew him personally considering they call it the "Dark Age of the Law". Even supposing Phoenix did have credibility, there's no evidence he helped Athena at all...merely that he met her, that's all. No support, no bending the rules, just a chance meeting and perhaps he did inspire her but apparently so did Simon, Athena gives conflicting opinions onto what her actual drive is for it. We don't know if Phoenix is credible or if he tried to bend the rules for her we only know they met. Again the key problem with Athena is the lack of information about her, so many ends left incomplete.
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Also, think about this. If you were in a dilemma where you had to learn a Physics college course in a year or a family member (or someone close to you) would die, could you do it? I definitely think I could. Anyone could with stakes that high. Athena had seven years plus an advantage in the field of psychology (does she even have a degree in psychology?) Her knowledge of psychology could also help her become a lawyer. Becoming a lawyer doesn't even seem that difficult in Ace Attorney, as one just needs to be able to spot lies and not know fundamentals like evidence law
I'd like to think I could but I wouldn't want to put it to the test, reality doesn't follow those rules and I don't really accept them for Ace Attorney as well. I leave that "Power of Will and Heart" stuff to the animes where characters draw upon that strength to punch the opponent harder. In the world of education there's bureaucracy and lots of it. There's no reason she'd even be accepted into a university at such a young age and traumatised at that as well nevermind the person at stake.
Imagine the interview "I know I can do your course because I gotta save this convicted felon who is innocent I could hear it in his heart!"
It's preposterous.
Also what advantage in psychology? It'd be feasible to think her mother might have tried teaching her a bit now and then but unless knowledge is hereditary (it isn't) then Athena actually says her mother neglected her and spent no time with her to the point she played with the robots instead. Athena had no advantage or anything to help her into a Law school. Power of Will alone doesn't overcome everything. In Ace Attorney, you can get the big heartfelt speech, you can tell yourself you can't give up on your client, you can still present the wrong evidence and get the guilty verdict.
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Think about it this way. The people against Athena are Prosecutors and the people supporting her are defense attorneys. You're the lawyer who just wants to find the truth
Pfft there is no absolute truth on the matter, that would imply someone's opinions were absolutely correct. Plus the categorisation of those against Athena as prosecutors portrays us as inherently antagonistic
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Pierre wrote:
People point out she is flawed and traumatised but it's not done well, the worst of her trauma is in case 3 and she overcomes it so quickly I'm surprised they bring it back and even then someone always comes to rescue her so she never really shows any strength herself.
I'd say that's a result of a flaw in the writing in general. It's Athena's story, technically, but she doesn't stand up for herself when she most needs to. Then again, the given environment she situates herself into doesn't seem to allow her as much growth as a real protagonist would earn.
It's almost like the scenario team decided they gave Athena too much already and tried cutting down on some aspects of her character development, but they spliced it up in a way that demands improvement. Honestly, I find what they did release in the final version as mild compared to what insanity they could have had.
Lawyer Corps. That is all.
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Well she's a prodigy by virtue of her record-time-law degree. That's the same virtue by which Franny and Klavier are considered prodigies and she's outdone both of them.
Speed-running academics should earn a completely new award in the history of gaming.
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She's ANOTHER Lawyer
Have folks actually made this complaint before?
This is the first I've heard of it.
JesusMonroe wrote:
Think about it this way. The people against Athena are Prosecutors and the people supporting her are defense attorneys. You're the lawyer who just wants to find the truth
I find it so ironic that you're calling ME the lawyer.
Pierre wrote:
Pfft there is no absolute truth on the matter, that would imply someone's opinions were absolutely correct. Plus the categorisation of those against Athena as prosecutors portrays us as inherently antagonistic
Nonsense, Pierre. Being on Edgeworth's side is an honor of the highest order.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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I'm not responding to your post because I'm lazy~
JesusMonroe wrote:
Something I do want to say regarding the ages of Franziska/Athena (Franzy was 13 by the way). Athena got her badge in seven years. How many years did it take Franziska? Certainly not thirteen because I doubt she was studying law at the age of one. Or two. Or even six. Where's the line drawn? Kids have certain development issues with learning. I don't really believe she could even start studying until nine, and I still have a hard time buying that.
Why not? There are geniuses in the world--kids who graduate college when they're teenagers. If you have a genius like that, and on top of it one of her parents is a gigantic presence in the legal world who can both pull strings for her and push her towards law literally from age one... Not to mention she had a personal inner drive to out-do Edgeworth. (Also, I believe in Japan (or at least when AA first came out) it was possible to be a law major in college and then become a lawyer without needing to go to grad/law school, so that shaves off a few years compared to America.) Yes, Franzy becoming a prosecutor that young is still insane--but there's definitely room for Franzy to have learned about law her entire life.
And yes, kids do have development issues with learning. How well do you think a socially awkward orphaned eleven year-old girl living in a foreign country whose mother was brutally murdered before her eyes can learn?
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As for von Karma's influence? Athena had Nick. He helped her become a lawyer and inspired her. Even if Nick was disbarred, he still had influence to change the legal system as we know it (Jurist System). He could probably help a lawyer squeeze through the system
Did she?
First of all, it's unclear. (Which is a recurring theme with Athena, don'tcha know.) She says she became a lawyer because of Nick... That's it. We don't know if Nick started prepping Athena from the day after UR-1, or if Nick met Athena a year before DD started, or if Nick put on a gigantic brown wig and took the bar exam for her. (Also, while it's never explicitly stated, from the way Athena talked about Nick it seemed to be that she had only met him sorta recently; not tons of years beforehand.)
Second of all, did he really have all that influence? Yeah, he helped make the Jurist System... which apparently failed. After all, it doesn't seem to be implemented in DD, and isn't brought up once. Besides, he presumably wasn't single-handedly making the Jurist System; he was most likely one member of a committee or whatever. Which is a bit different from a sole attorney who was disbarred for forgery trying to push an underaged girl through the system.
Lastly, even if he had that influence, would he have used it for Athena? Think about it. There was no reason for Athena to be a lawyer. Nick became a lawyer to stop Phantom, which was basically cases 1, 4, and 5, where the lawyers were... Polly and Nick. All Nick needed Athena for was to Mood Matrix for him; there was no reason she became a lawyer.
(Rather, the possibility I'm suggesting is that Nick convinced Athena to return to Japan, so he could use the Mood Matrix to beat Phantom when 'something' finally happened. Because of that meeting Athena decided to become a lawyer, which was not something Phoenix had actually intended.)
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Also, think about this. If you were in a dilemma where you had to learn a Physics college course in a year or a family member (or someone close to you) would die, could you do it? I definitely think I could. Anyone could with stakes that high. Athena had seven years plus an advantage in the field of psychology (does she even have a degree in psychology?) Her knowledge of psychology could also help her become a lawyer. Becoming a lawyer doesn't even seem that difficult in Ace Attorney, as one just needs to be able to spot lies and not know fundamentals like evidence law
That's... not really a good comparison. Courses are usually just one semester, and you're giving me a year :P A better comparison would be like needing to learn the equivalent of a Master's or Doctorate in some field in a single year. And no, I'm not sure I'd be able to do that. I would certainly try my hardest--but no matter how much we want something, there are still limits to what we can do.
Plus, this isn't a teenager/adult doing it, but a child--who, as you point out, have development issues with learning. (And that's just normal, general kids, not even factoring in all of Athena's issues at the time.)
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Bad Player wrote:
omg rubia you posted while I was writing this
I'm not responding to your post because I'm lazy~
I'm not responding to your post because I'm lazy~
Honestly, I'm not sure what in my last post you'd need to respond to, but your perfectly acceptable reason is received without complaints.
Quote:
First of all, it's unclear. (Which is a recurring theme with Athena, don'tcha know.) She says she became a lawyer because of Nick... That's it. We don't know if Nick started prepping Athena from the day after UR-1, or if Nick met Athena a year before DD started, or if Nick put on a gigantic brown wig and took the bar exam for her. (Also, while it's never explicitly stated, from the way Athena talked about Nick it seemed to be that she had only met him sorta recently; not tons of years beforehand.)
BP! Why do you put these ideas into my head!?
Quote:
Besides, he presumably wasn't single-handedly making the Jurist System; he was most likely one member of a committee or whatever.
Fyi, he was chairman and put in charge of running that test trial... and nothing more.
Quote:
(Rather, the possibility I'm suggesting is that Nick convinced Athena to return to Japan, so he could use the Mood Matrix to beat Phantom when 'something' finally happened. Because of that meeting Athena decided to become a lawyer, which was not something Phoenix had actually intended.)
I'd add that he called her back home because he needed the right person to get Blackquill to cooperate. Even Edgeworth kept his distance.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
omg rubia you posted while I was writing this
I'm not responding to your post because I'm lazy~
I'm not responding to your post because I'm lazy~
Honestly, I'm not sure what in my last post you'd need to respond to, but your perfectly acceptable reason is received without complaints.
I posted it without actually reading your post :P
Quote:
Quote:
First of all, it's unclear. (Which is a recurring theme with Athena, don'tcha know.) She says she became a lawyer because of Nick... That's it. We don't know if Nick started prepping Athena from the day after UR-1, or if Nick met Athena a year before DD started, or if Nick put on a gigantic brown wig and took the bar exam for her. (Also, while it's never explicitly stated, from the way Athena talked about Nick it seemed to be that she had only met him sorta recently; not tons of years beforehand.)
BP! Why do you put these ideas into my head!?
Hehehe
Quote:
Quote:
Besides, he presumably wasn't single-handedly making the Jurist System; he was most likely one member of a committee or whatever.
Fyi, he was chairman and put in charge of running that test trial... and nothing more.
Well there ya go.
Quote:
Quote:
(Rather, the possibility I'm suggesting is that Nick convinced Athena to return to Japan, so he could use the Mood Matrix to beat Phantom when 'something' finally happened. Because of that meeting Athena decided to become a lawyer, which was not something Phoenix had actually intended.)
I'd add that he called her back home because he needed the right person to get Blackquill to cooperate. Even Edgeworth kept his distance.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Regarding studying, I meant Franziska likely didn't start studying to become a lawyer until nine, not studying in general :p. It's unlikely that you can start studying to be a lawyer at an age where you're still learning basic vocab (though I like to think Franzy's first word is Objection). I do want to clarify that I don't think any of Athena's things make in sense from a real world perspective, but I do think it's plausible with what we've been presented so far in the AA universe. Athena ignored the trauma (of her mother's death. Not the trial) for most of her life. Edgeworth was tortured every night by nightmares but he became ok in the end and a very fit prosecutor. As for Athena being in a foreign country, maybe she was bilingual? That's not unheard of. She frequently says phrases in other languages and being a young child is the best time to become fluent in a language.
Proof?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vwwYtuPOFg (42 minutes in. She even mentions that psychology could help her!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znouQ0EC5CA (12 minutes in)
Actually, fuck it. My new headcanon is Phoenix donning a brown wig and taking the bar exam. Contradiction resolved!
The same way Trucy gave Nick an edge in poker, Athena had an edge in psychology because of her ability. It doesn't matter if it's vague and not explained well. It is explained that she had it her entire life and it is mentioned that she's good at it
Well even with a Masters or Doctorates, you could certainly try your hardest and given seven years, you could definitely do it. Yes, Athena was a child, but she had the drive to do it (Simon's life was at stake), and she had an edge in psychology which gave her an edge in being a lawyer
Also, this is just pure speculation, but did Athena study law in Germany? I thought she just took the bar exam there because they're more progressive. I'm probably completely wrong. I just want clarification
And don't be upset, Pierre. Worthy is a prosecutor, too
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Bad Player wrote:
Quote:
BP! Why do you put these ideas into my head!? And why brown
Hehehe
Wait, that doesn't make the image in my head any better.
Quote:
Quote:
I'd add that he called her back home because he needed the right person to get Blackquill to cooperate. Even Edgeworth kept his distance. Athena's purpose as meat shield confirmed it's better than that crack theory of Phoenix losing his internet
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Regarding studying, I meant Franziska likely didn't start studying to become a lawyer until nine, not studying in general :p. It's unlikely that you can start studying to be a lawyer at an age where you're still learning basic vocab (though I like to think Franzy's first word is Objection). I do want to clarify that I don't think any of Athena's things make in sense from a real world perspective, but I do think it's plausible with what we've been presented so far in the AA universe.
It's very easy to go "Prodigies are everywhere in AA! There's nothing special about Athena!", but I think that's too simplistic of an analysis. The other prodigies in the franchise are Franzy, Edgey, Klavier, and Yumihiko. As has been mentioned many times in this thread already (including on this page), Franzy has Manfred, a gigantic figure in the world of law, both pulling strings for her and pushing her studies. Edgey similarly had Manfred presumably pushing him, and had an interest in law even before Manfred adopted him. Klavier... I really don't like, either. But his older brother was a prominent defense attorney, so he still had some connection to the world of law. Plus, his 'other gig' was guitar, which could easily be more of a hobby, compared to psychology, which requires more disciplined study. Finally there's Yumihiko, who, like Franzy and Edgey, had a prominent legal figure backing him up. (He also... ended up being Yumihiko. You've played GK2; I don't think I need to say more.)
Athena had no prior connection to the field of law, and her only bonus at best was an attorney who was disbarred for forgery rooting for her. We don't know the extent of Nick and Athena's relationship pre-DD, so we don't know if Nick actually helped her study/train or whatever, or if he just showed up once (to check up on the girl Edgey told him about), inspired her to be a lawyer, and left her to her own devices.
Athena's results are similar to the other prodigies, but she does it with little to no outside backing, (presumably) in a shorter amount of time, and starting off in a "worse" position.
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Athena ignored the trauma (of her mother's death. Not the trial) for most of her life.
...What. Trauma isn't something you can just "ignore." She learned to cope with it, yes, but I doubt she did it in a week.
And even then, there's thirteen years of social awkwardness and recluse-ness she needs to get over.
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Edgeworth was tortured every night by nightmares but he became ok in the end and a very fit prosecutor.
His experiences were also a bit less horrific than Athena's. And he had an interest in law his entire life. And he had Manfred pushing him on to be a lawyer. And he didn't do things quite as fast as Athena did.
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As for Athena being in a foreign country, maybe she was bilingual? That's not unheard of. She frequently says phrases in other languages and being a young child is the best time to become fluent in a language. That, or Metis programmed her with multiple languages
Maybe, but we don't know. We don't know if Athena knew foreign languages before UR-1, or if she didn't learn them until she moved to Germica. But even if she knew the language before UR-1, there's still the shock of completely changing location/cultures.
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The same way Trucy gave Nick an edge in poker, Athena had an edge in psychology because of her ability. It doesn't matter if it's vague and not explained well.
...Yes it does. That's, like, all of the problems with Athena in a nutshell.
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Well even with a Masters or Doctorates, you could certainly try your hardest and given seven years, you could definitely do it. Yes, Athena was a child, but she had the drive to do it (Simon's life was at stake), and she had an edge in psychology which gave her an edge in being a lawyer
A Masters or Doctorates for a normal teenager/adult in ~7 years isn't too crazy... That's what usually happens, isn't it? You're stretching your example too far, to the point where it doesn't work :P Athena had to do something like that, and regular schooling before that, and any schooling she had missed from not going to school much, and get over her social awkwardness/UR-1 trauma/culture shock, while starting out as a child (rather than a teenager/adult). I feel like a more apt comparison might be going from a high school diploma to a master's/doctorate in 3-4 years.
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Also, this is just pure speculation, but did Athena study law in Germany? I thought she just took the bar exam there because they're more progressive. I'm probably completely wrong. I just want clarification
(Say it with me, this time!) We don't know. I think the generally-accepted theory/"canon" is that Athena went to live with relatives in Germica after UR-1, and she did everything (studying+bar exam) there until she returned to Japan for DD.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
The law is full of contradictions.
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Pierre wrote:
It's not all that vague, if you wanted me to refine the term I'd define her as a Black-Hole Sue, one who draws absolutely everything towards her. Everyone knows what a Mary Sue is, a character who is so perfect and 'blessed' beyond believability to the point of annoyance. People point out she is flawed and traumatised but it's not done well, the worst of her trauma is in case 3 and she overcomes it so quickly I'm surprised they bring it back and even then someone always comes to rescue her so she never really shows any strength herself. Mary Sue is a vague term but really it's just the result of the other problems.
Spoiler:
[quote="Pierre"]
I don't think age and getting too old are really a problem, they made Phoenix a protagonist in his thirties and look at Von Karma, he looks plenty old and he was still in the business. If they got on so long that Phoenix's age caused him to retire I hardly imagine Apollo and Athena would be young bucks as well to relate to the players they'd probably just bring in someone new at the standard 20-22 age range and tell a new story.[quote]
Spoiler:
[quote="Pierre"]
And no I'm afraid Franziska Von Karma being a "Von Karma" isn't as nuts for some as others. She had an extremely influential father in the law industry who took it upon himself to educate his children. I can believe he could pull strings and educate her to meet his goals and get it on her own. Also it's not a case of Franziska got it so early at fourteen, it's a case of Athena got it in SEVEN YEARS. From her first school, with no real outstanding intellectual ability, with no connections of influence in the field of law to help her into a university. For Franziska, she at least has some elements in her favour, Athena has literally nothing to justify it or stretch believability.[quote]
Spoiler:
"Follow Your heart out of the darkness! Stand up and rise from the ashes! Back to the start, far from the madness. Come alive again! Break off the chains of hesitation! Your voice will be your salvation! Look to the light of liberation waiting at the end!"
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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I mean, to me it just seems like an implausible feat and a result of bad writing; she was a traumatized, school-skipping, parentally neglected, socially reclusive 11-year-old who couldn't tell the difference between robots and people, and when her mother is brutally murdered right in front of her, she somehow finds herself abroad, finishes in seven years and makes a personality 180.
Other than the "how the bloody hell did that happen?", I've got several issues with this, none of them being explained in any way in the story. First of all, how and why did she move to "Europe"? Did she have relatives? Where did she get the money to study? I'm going to Japan on saturday for three months, and a single course for such a short time cost me several thousand dollars, which I think is an apt comparison. She'd also need a visa, get established in her new home and culture, learn the language (although admittedly most universities in Europe offer courses or programs in English, she'd still need the language to actually GET to a university), and then find a university willing to accept a foreign, traumatized 11-year old with a poor attendance record. Really, when you take all of this into consideration, we're hardly talking about Athena accomplishing all this in seven years, we're talking about finishing college in like half that time. And during this time she's also somehow inspired by Phoenix by chance...somehow, somewhere.
Anyway, so that is the giant clusterfuck that is Athena's European past. Now, to me, all of this could've been explained if Athena were older, mentioned relatives of any kind and then started working on freeing Blackquill the second she got home. But that's not what happened in Dual Destinies, so I pose this question to you who don't have a problem with this, how do you explain this? Doesn't it bother you in the slightest, or do you simply not care? I really can't take such a convoluted, ridiculous background story seriously, and this is only one of the major problems I have with Athena. I just want to know where everybody stands on this.
Also, Ucha, about the whole sue thing...
Spoiler:
Last edited by Thane on Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
Y'know
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Also, I don't think she has psychology degree. She... is an enthusiast, but honestly, she didn't seem to have any psychologist experience whatsoever... Mostly, she was really just using her own ears and her mother's gadget.
As for Thane... I felt kinda the same about Franziska, as Monroe mentioned already. I just cannot understand how Manfred could have made 13-years-old to be a proper prosecutor and especially, how could he got her to act all reasonable and serious-like, considering that vast majority of kids are really just brats...
However, I would say that Athena's attendance would have improved in Europe, as her power was dumped down to an acceptable level already, from what I could tell. You know, if she could do her best all during that time in Europe, skipping a few classes and being accepted in an university as a very hard-working girl wouldn't be that much of a problem.
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
The law is full of contradictions.
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Thane wrote:
There's something I'd like to ask of everyone "defending" Athena (we really are like prosecutors...I love it!) is to explain what they think of her sudden move to another country/countries.
I mean, to me it just seems like an implausible feat and a result of bad writing; she was a traumatized, school-skipping, parentally neglected, socially reclusive 11-year-old who couldn't tell the difference between robots and people, and when her mother is brutally murdered right in front of her, she somehow finds herself abroad, finishes in seven years and makes a personality 180.
Other than the "how the bloody hell did that happen?", I've got several issues with this, none of them being explained in any way in the story. First of all, how and why did she move to "Europe"? Did she have relatives? Where did she get the money to study? I'm going to Japan on saturday for three months, and a single course for such a short time cost me several thousand dollars, which I think is an apt comparison. She'd also need a visa, get established in her new home and culture, learn the language (although admittedly most universities in Europe offer courses or programs in English, she'd still need the language to actually GET to a university), and then find a university willing to accept a foreign, traumatized 11-year old with a poor attendance record. Really, when you take all of this into consideration, we're hardly talking about Athena accomplishing all this in seven years, we're talking about finishing college in like half that time. And during this time she's also somehow inspired by Phoenix by chance...somehow, somewhere.
Anyway, so that is the giant clusterfuck that is Athena's European past. Now, to me, all of this could've been explained if Athena were older, mentioned relatives of any kind and then started working on freeing Blackquill the second she got home. But that's not what happened in Dual Destinies, so I pose this question to you who don't have a problem with this, how do you explain this? Doesn't it bother you in the slightest, or do you simply not care? I really can't take such a convoluted, ridiculous background story seriously, and this is only one of the major problems I have with Athena. I just want to know where everybody stands on this.
Also, Ucha, about the whole sue thing...
I mean, to me it just seems like an implausible feat and a result of bad writing; she was a traumatized, school-skipping, parentally neglected, socially reclusive 11-year-old who couldn't tell the difference between robots and people, and when her mother is brutally murdered right in front of her, she somehow finds herself abroad, finishes in seven years and makes a personality 180.
Other than the "how the bloody hell did that happen?", I've got several issues with this, none of them being explained in any way in the story. First of all, how and why did she move to "Europe"? Did she have relatives? Where did she get the money to study? I'm going to Japan on saturday for three months, and a single course for such a short time cost me several thousand dollars, which I think is an apt comparison. She'd also need a visa, get established in her new home and culture, learn the language (although admittedly most universities in Europe offer courses or programs in English, she'd still need the language to actually GET to a university), and then find a university willing to accept a foreign, traumatized 11-year old with a poor attendance record. Really, when you take all of this into consideration, we're hardly talking about Athena accomplishing all this in seven years, we're talking about finishing college in like half that time. And during this time she's also somehow inspired by Phoenix by chance...somehow, somewhere.
Anyway, so that is the giant clusterfuck that is Athena's European past. Now, to me, all of this could've been explained if Athena were older, mentioned relatives of any kind and then started working on freeing Blackquill the second she got home. But that's not what happened in Dual Destinies, so I pose this question to you who don't have a problem with this, how do you explain this? Doesn't it bother you in the slightest, or do you simply not care? I really can't take such a convoluted, ridiculous background story seriously, and this is only one of the major problems I have with Athena. I just want to know where everybody stands on this.
Also, Ucha, about the whole sue thing...
Spoiler:
I'm tired, it's 3:00 where I am...That's why I didn't finish replying to Pierre's comments. But as to answer your question. Saving Athena isn't what completed all those story arcs. Catching the Phantom is what concluded them. If Athena was proven innocent that wouldn't explain what happened to Clay, nor Metis, and Aura would have "killed" the hostages cause her brother would have been sentience to death. Now is that an ending you'd want? You guys seriously need to relax. True her story isn't completely explained. I hope they do so in the future. The reason she moved to Europe is actually one of the things they DO explain. She has family over there. With Metis gone she went to live with relatives and studied Psychology. When Phoenix met her he told her what her power could be used for and that gave her hope to save Blackquill. So she studied her ass off in whatever country in Europe allows a kid to graduate and take the bar exam. I hope that's enough explanation for you I'm tired...
"Follow Your heart out of the darkness! Stand up and rise from the ashes! Back to the start, far from the madness. Come alive again! Break off the chains of hesitation! Your voice will be your salvation! Look to the light of liberation waiting at the end!"
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
Y'know
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That's... really a bad point you made there, Thane.
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
Racing through the sky like a Missile
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Thane wrote:
There's something I'd like to ask of everyone "defending" Athena (we really are like prosecutors...I love it!) is to explain what they think of her sudden move to another country/countries.
Speaking of schools, I recall that Juniper & her buddies are 3rd year students at a private academy that I assume is set at a level of education between high school and college. Then, they graduated, since it was their last year, and at the age of 19, they'd be free (supposedly) to take the bar exam and earn their badges. Now, I'm sure there's supposed to be something that happens between them graduating and being officially instated, but by this point, I'm not clear what it is. Internships may offer hands-on job experience, but would their first years as instated lawyers count, then?
This is so confusing.
I mean, it's not like it's required to go to law school to take the bar in this universe, right?Quote:
I'm going to Japan on saturday for three months, and a single course for such a short time cost me several thousand dollars, which I think is an apt comparison.
Oh, Saturday! Wow, time sure flies, even if some days feel so slow... Cheers! Should we keep in contact through PMs on this site, or do you have a different idea? I'm fine with it either way.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
Gettin' Old!
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Quote:
But she's not perfect OR blessed. And she hasn't overcome it. She's doing what's called putting on a brave face. She faced her past strait on and after doing that and finding out she's innocent she was happy. Can't you give her that? She will probably never totally get over her trauma. But as someone who's dealt with trauma before I know for a fact you CAN put on a brave face 8 years after the trauma...True it's not easy, but if your brave enough to move forward you can. As for the Black-Hole Sue thing...It sounds stupid. Never once did I think she was drawing everything up around her. I just see her as a normal girl. You're just adding fuel to the Sue-fire by putting sue's into categories. It just gives people more excuses to hate blindly.
You said "Mary Sue" was too vague, I gave you a more specific one. The game just centres around her for the important plot when it's not her name on the box. She might never get over her trauma true but considering that everything was wrapped up and that I'D HOPE they'd say she developed as a character in light of it she won't get that breakdown again. She totally is blessed though in other ways as I described.
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I've thought of that too. And while I agree there really is no excuse for her being that young. To be honest it's just a theory. But her age doesn't make her a bad character. And she's not the only one who's age is ridiculous.
Her age alone doesn't but her accomplishments by that age and the explanations for them do.
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The point I was making was if Franny is allowed to do it, why not Athena?
Err...the point I was making was Franny had X Y and Z to support her education and fast track her into passing the bar while Athena doesn't have anything. That's why it's ok for Franny.
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Regarding studying, I meant Franziska likely didn't start studying to become a lawyer until nine, not studying in general :p. It's unlikely that you can start studying to be a lawyer at an age where you're still learning basic vocab (though I like to think Franzy's first word is Objection). I do want to clarify that I don't think any of Athena's things make in sense from a real world perspective, but I do think it's plausible with what we've been presented so far in the AA universe. Athena ignored the trauma (of her mother's death. Not the trial) for most of her life. Edgeworth was tortured every night by nightmares but he became ok in the end and a very fit prosecutor. As for Athena being in a foreign country, maybe she was bilingual? That's not unheard of. She frequently says phrases in other languages and being a young child is the best time to become fluent in a language. That, or Metis programmed her with multiple languages
Well I can't prove it but the underlying assumption was than Manfred had taken it upon himself to teach Franziska. This means she could have started her education at any time, Manfred would have had to teach his...specific doctrine to his children rather than risk an imperfect teacher. Also I'd like to draw attention to the real-life legendary lawyer once more Ms Turnquest.
"Aged 6, with three years of Florida pre-school and grade school under her belt, Ms Turnquest stepped on to the barracuda mum fast track with her siblings, condensing six and a half years of traditional schooling into three."
By real world standards someone started home-school education at 6, now by Von Karma standards he probably had her starting even earlier.
As for her language, I'd generally assumed she picked it up as a result of studying in Europe.
Another problem I have that came to mind: That sound issue where her head hurts because she hears too much...how can that just 'go away' when it's something that pained her all her life to the point she needed a special medical headset for it?
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
Y'know
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
Gettin' Old!
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Nearavex wrote:
...Because the headset worked? I mean, that was what it was made for.
Headsets work by blocking out sound, which pained her, it tackled the symptom, they never found a solution for the root of the problem...it just went away.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Ucha Nekome wrote:
I'm tired, it's 3:00 where I am...That's why I didn't finish replying to Pierre's comments. But as to answer your question. Saving Athena isn't what completed all those story arcs. Catching the Phantom is what concluded them. If Athena was proven innocent that wouldn't explain what happened to Clay, nor Metis, and Aura would have "killed" the hostages cause her brother would have been sentience to death. Now is that an ending you'd want? You guys seriously need to relax. True her story isn't completely explained. I hope they do so in the future. The reason she moved to Europe is actually one of the things they DO explain. She has family over there. With Metis gone she went to live with relatives and studied Psychology. When Phoenix met her he told her what her power could be used for and that gave her hope to save Blackquill. So she studied her ass off in whatever country in Europe allows a kid to graduate and take the bar exam. I hope that's enough explanation for you I'm tired...
Oh, sure, there were other factors contributing to all those things happening, there's no denying that. However, it all leads back to Athena, and that too is an undeniable fact. She's suspected of killing her mother and Clay, Simon tries to help her for whatever reason and also find the Phantom at the same time while Apollo tries to get to the bottom of his friend's death, which also leads back to Athena. The reason why they bring up Clay's death on the trial in the first place is because Aura wants another shot at taking down Athena.
Saving Athena solves all of subplots. Now, I still claim that 5-5 is the worst case in the entire franchise, so you can always blame the poor writing rather than Athena (which is basically what we "prosecutors" have been doing this whole time), but it still makes it easy for me to understand Pierre's point of view when he says she's a black hole sue.
Also, if you don't mind me asking, where was it stated she lived with relatives in Europe? It certainly doesn't make her background plausible, but hey, at least it'd make it a little less stupid Unfortunately, I have absolutely no recollection of ever hearing or reading something about her relatives in Europe. If you could point out exactly where she said it, I'd be grateful.
Oh, and Rubes, how about Facebook? I almost deleted a super important email when getting rid of the notifications you get when you receive a message on this site, causing me no small amount of discomfort.
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Pierre wrote:
Thane I can't quote where but I can also say I remember someone saying she went to live with 'relatives' in Europe.
That'd be amazing! Unfortunately I can't find anything about it, and the major issues I have with her remain, but hey...
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Thane wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Thane I can't quote where but I can also say I remember someone saying she went to live with 'relatives' in Europe.
That'd be amazing! Unfortunately I can't find anything about it, and the major issues I have with her remain, but hey...
The fact she has relatives in Europe changes very little as we know nothing of them. They could have sent her to an orphanage in europe for all the difference they make.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Pierre wrote:
Quote:
Similar Subject: Did you know some people with disorders are geniuses? I personally believe that Athena has PTSD and Bipolar. Though not confirmed it's a strong possibility, and would explain why she's good at her job. But that's just a theory based on what I know.
Big assumptions and not necessarily true on all cases. PTSD also isn't one of the disorders associated with such 'boosts'. I think you are referring to Autistic Savants, who have very focused narrow interests and plenty of social problems to come with and she doesn't display the social awkwardness or intense focused interests of someone with Autism.
So, have any of you considered Posttraumatic growth?
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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sumguy28 wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Quote:
Similar Subject: Did you know some people with disorders are geniuses? I personally believe that Athena has PTSD and Bipolar. Though not confirmed it's a strong possibility, and would explain why she's good at her job. But that's just a theory based on what I know.
Big assumptions and not necessarily true on all cases. PTSD also isn't one of the disorders associated with such 'boosts'. I think you are referring to Autistic Savants, who have very focused narrow interests and plenty of social problems to come with and she doesn't display the social awkwardness or intense focused interests of someone with Autism.
So, have any of you considered Posttraumatic growth?
I can't say how much good it did me to read a scientific article again but thank you.
It's a good angle to look at things, and it's possibly a reason Athena did a 180 on her personality after the UR-1 incident.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Pierre wrote:
Another problem I have that came to mind: That sound issue where her head hurts because she hears too much...how can that just 'go away' when it's something that pained her all her life to the point she needed a special medical headset for it?
Actually, remember the "Athena's power is realistic!" thing someone said a few pages ago, and then they posted a thing written by an IRL person with sensitive hearing? IIRC, that guy said he (she? I forget) had social troubles due to their sensitive hearing, but as they grew older were able to do... things I forget in order to help cope with them.
So in this case, at least, I think that's something that can reasonably be explained.
sumguy28 wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Quote:
Similar Subject: Did you know some people with disorders are geniuses? I personally believe that Athena has PTSD and Bipolar. Though not confirmed it's a strong possibility, and would explain why she's good at her job. But that's just a theory based on what I know.
Big assumptions and not necessarily true on all cases. PTSD also isn't one of the disorders associated with such 'boosts'. I think you are referring to Autistic Savants, who have very focused narrow interests and plenty of social problems to come with and she doesn't display the social awkwardness or intense focused interests of someone with Autism.
So, have any of you considered Posttraumatic growth?
Well, that article doesn't really go into too much detail, and this is the first time I've heard of that, but it seems like they're more talking about coping with the trauma and spiritual/social/philosophical growth ("These changes include improved relationships, new possibilities for one's life, a greater appreciation for life, a greater sense of personal strength and spiritual development."), not the sudden academic prowess to complete school twice as fast as usual while also possibly learning a new language.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Pierre wrote:
Thane wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Thane I can't quote where but I can also say I remember someone saying she went to live with 'relatives' in Europe.
That'd be amazing! Unfortunately I can't find anything about it, and the major issues I have with her remain, but hey...
The fact she has relatives in Europe changes very little as we know nothing of them. They could have sent her to an orphanage in europe for all the difference they make.
It would at least explain why she'd have to leave her own bloody country in order to study right after her mother was brutally murdered in front of her eyes. It still doesn't explain why a random university accepted a traumatized, socially reclusive 11-year-old foreigner with a bad attendance record, however. I'd still like to see exactly where she mentioned relatives; I can't believe I'd miss something like that.
Oh, and thank you, Bad Player!
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Pierre wrote:
Lets chill now, there are no 'bad points' in opinions here.
Agreed. Even if I don't agree with yours. I wouldn't call his opinion bad, just misinformed.
Quote:
You said "Mary Sue" was too vague, I gave you a more specific one. The game just centres around her for the important plot when it's not her name on the box. She might never get over her trauma true but considering that everything was wrapped up and that I'D HOPE they'd say she developed as a character in light of it she won't get that breakdown again. She totally is blessed though in other ways as I described.
:/ Blessed? How? I read your comment but I still don't see how being liked by some people is blessed...She lost her mother, had to live in pain for many years, then studied her ass off overseas, and forced herself back in the courtroom despite her fears so she can save one mans life.
Though I'll admit it IS pretty stupid that she got her degree so early, I blame that on bad writing not her character.
Quote:
Err...the point I was making was Franny had X Y and Z to support her education and fast track her into passing the bar while Athena doesn't have anything. That's why it's ok for Franny.
If your gonna dwell on the fact that she's too young then you should dwell on Kaliver too cause he graduated a hear younger than Athena and that had no explanation other than...Germany...that's it...
Quote:
Athena ignored the trauma (of her mother's death. Not the trial) for most of her life.
Do you not understand repressed memories? It's a way of protecting yourself. That's what the black Psyche-locks were. Her memory repression. As soon as they broke she remembered what her mind wouldn't allow her to.
Quote:
Well I can't prove it but the underlying assumption was than Manfred had taken it upon himself to teach Franziska. This means she could have started her education at any time, Manfred would have had to teach his...specific doctrine to his children rather than risk an imperfect teacher. Also I'd like to draw attention to the real-life legendary lawyer once more Ms Turnquest.
"Aged 6, with three years of Florida pre-school and grade school under her belt, Ms Turnquest stepped on to the barracuda mum fast track with her siblings, condensing six and a half years of traditional schooling into three."
By real world standards someone started home-school education at 6, now by Von Karma standards he probably had her starting even earlier.
As for her language, I'd generally assumed she picked it up as a result of studying in Europe.
"Aged 6, with three years of Florida pre-school and grade school under her belt, Ms Turnquest stepped on to the barracuda mum fast track with her siblings, condensing six and a half years of traditional schooling into three."
By real world standards someone started home-school education at 6, now by Von Karma standards he probably had her starting even earlier.
As for her language, I'd generally assumed she picked it up as a result of studying in Europe.
This isn't the real world. In Phoenix Wright land any child can pick up a law degree overseas. Stop trying to make this worlds logic fit with our own. It's it's own universe with it's own laws. If you keep picking out problems with the laws of a made up world in a video game, then it's stops being fun.
Quote:
Another problem I have that came to mind: That sound issue where her head hurts because she hears too much...how can that just 'go away' when it's something that pained her all her life to the point she needed a special medical headset for it?
Some abilities or problems fade as a person matures. Let me explain. When I was young, I heard this loud high pitched beeping sound when someone turned on the TV that no one else heard. Even when we got a new TV it didn't go away. As time went on the Beeping faded. I'm guessing I grew out of it? IDK...anyways...I'm guessing it's something like that. It turns out a class mate of mine had the same thing. But theirs didn't go away. I'm not sure what that means, but sometimes things fade with time sometimes things don't.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Ucha Nekome wrote:
:/ Blessed? How? I read your comment but I still don't see how being liked by some people is blessed...She lost her mother, had to live in pain for many years, then studied her ass off overseas, and forced herself back in the courtroom despite her fears so she can save one mans life.
Because she's an athletic, pretty, outgoing, well-liked genius lawyer psychologist with magic powers and unique hyper-advanced technology.
Quote:
Quote:
Err...the point I was making was Franny had X Y and Z to support her education and fast track her into passing the bar while Athena doesn't have anything. That's why it's ok for Franny.
If your gonna dwell on the fact that she's too young then you should dwell on Kaliver too cause he graduated a hear younger than Athena and that had no explanation other than...Germany...that's it...
Klavier is a bad character too. Except this is the thread about Athena; I'm not giving long arguments against Klavier because this isn't the thread for that, not because I think he's fine.
Also, Klavier's brother was a prominent defense attorney. Although they never outright state Kristoph helped him, it's definitely reasonable. Athena had nothing, though.
Quote:
This isn't the real world. In Phoenix Wright land any child can pick up a law degree overseas.
I actually pretty much accounted for this earlier on this page. Copypasting:
It's very easy to go "Prodigies are everywhere in AA! There's nothing special about Athena!", but I think that's too simplistic of an analysis. The other prodigies in the franchise are Franzy, Edgey, Klavier, and Yumihiko. As has been mentioned many times in this thread already (including on this page), Franzy has Manfred, a gigantic figure in the world of law, both pulling strings for her and pushing her studies. Edgey similarly had Manfred presumably pushing him, and had an interest in law even before Manfred adopted him. Klavier... I really don't like, either. But his older brother was a prominent defense attorney, so he still had some connection to the world of law. Plus, his 'other gig' was guitar, which could easily be more of a hobby, compared to psychology, which requires more disciplined study. Finally there's Yumihiko, who, like Franzy and Edgey, had a prominent legal figure backing him up. (He also... ended up being Yumihiko. You've played GK2; I don't think I need to say more.)
Athena had no prior connection to the field of law, and her only bonus at best was an attorney who was disbarred for forgery rooting for her. We don't know the extent of Nick and Athena's relationship pre-DD, so we don't know if Nick actually helped her study/train or whatever, or if he just showed up once (to check up on the girl Edgey told him about), inspired her to be a lawyer, and left her to her own devices.
Athena's results are similar to the other prodigies, but she does it with little to no outside backing, (presumably) in a shorter amount of time, and starting off in a "worse" position.
[I'm not sure if you actually know about Yumihiko, but... there's really no way at all to use Yumihiko to try to justify Athena.]
Quote:
Stop trying to make this worlds logic fit with our own. It's it's own universe with it's own laws. If you keep picking out problems with the laws of a made up world in a video game, then it's stops being fun.
It's not about making AA's world's laws fit with our own. It's about making its laws fit with itself. A certain universe and standards were set up in the first few games, and a character like Athena comes along and throws them out the window.
And when a video game so egregiously violates and ignores precedents it had established earlier in the series, it stops being fun. It's not like I had super-tons of fun with DD, finished it, then decided I was going to complain about it. These issues were nagging at me the entire game, and greatly hampered my enjoyment of it. I play games like AA because I want a smart, well thought out story and characters; if I didn't care about that sort of thing, I'd be playing CoD or something.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Bad Player wrote:
Ucha Nekome wrote:
:/ Blessed? How? I read your comment but I still don't see how being liked by some people is blessed...She lost her mother, had to live in pain for many years, then studied her ass off overseas, and forced herself back in the courtroom despite her fears so she can save one mans life.
Because she's an athletic, pretty, outgoing, well-liked genius lawyer psychologist with magic powers and unique hyper-advanced technology.
Quote:
Quote:
Err...the point I was making was Franny had X Y and Z to support her education and fast track her into passing the bar while Athena doesn't have anything. That's why it's ok for Franny.
If your gonna dwell on the fact that she's too young then you should dwell on Kaliver too cause he graduated a hear younger than Athena and that had no explanation other than...Germany...that's it...
Klavier is a bad character too. Except this is the thread about Athena; I'm not giving long arguments against Klavier because this isn't the thread for that, not because I think he's fine.
Also, Klavier's brother was a prominent defense attorney. Although they never outright state Kristoph helped him, it's definitely reasonable. Athena had nothing, though.
Quote:
This isn't the real world. In Phoenix Wright land any child can pick up a law degree overseas.
I actually pretty much accounted for this earlier on this page. Copypasting:
It's very easy to go "Prodigies are everywhere in AA! There's nothing special about Athena!", but I think that's too simplistic of an analysis. The other prodigies in the franchise are Franzy, Edgey, Klavier, and Yumihiko. As has been mentioned many times in this thread already (including on this page), Franzy has Manfred, a gigantic figure in the world of law, both pulling strings for her and pushing her studies. Edgey similarly had Manfred presumably pushing him, and had an interest in law even before Manfred adopted him. Klavier... I really don't like, either. But his older brother was a prominent defense attorney, so he still had some connection to the world of law. Plus, his 'other gig' was guitar, which could easily be more of a hobby, compared to psychology, which requires more disciplined study. Finally there's Yumihiko, who, like Franzy and Edgey, had a prominent legal figure backing him up. (He also... ended up being Yumihiko. You've played GK2; I don't think I need to say more.)
Athena had no prior connection to the field of law, and her only bonus at best was an attorney who was disbarred for forgery rooting for her. We don't know the extent of Nick and Athena's relationship pre-DD, so we don't know if Nick actually helped her study/train or whatever, or if he just showed up once (to check up on the girl Edgey told him about), inspired her to be a lawyer, and left her to her own devices.
Athena's results are similar to the other prodigies, but she does it with little to no outside backing, (presumably) in a shorter amount of time, and starting off in a "worse" position.
[I'm not sure if you actually know about Yumihiko, but... there's really no way at all to use Yumihiko to try to justify Athena.]
Quote:
Stop trying to make this worlds logic fit with our own. It's it's own universe with it's own laws. If you keep picking out problems with the laws of a made up world in a video game, then it's stops being fun.
It's not about making AA's world's laws fit with our own. It's about making its laws fit with itself. A certain universe and standards were set up in the first few games, and a character like Athena comes along and throws them out the window.
And when a video game so egregiously violates and ignores precedents it had established earlier in the series, it stops being fun. It's not like I had super-tons of fun with DD, finished it, then decided I was going to complain about it. These issues were nagging at me the entire game, and greatly hampered my enjoyment of it. I play games like AA because I want a smart, well thought out story and characters; if I didn't care about that sort of thing, I'd be playing CoD or something.
And that's the difference between you and me.
Spoiler:
"Follow Your heart out of the darkness! Stand up and rise from the ashes! Back to the start, far from the madness. Come alive again! Break off the chains of hesitation! Your voice will be your salvation! Look to the light of liberation waiting at the end!"
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Thane wrote:
Also, if you don't mind me asking, where was it stated she lived with relatives in Europe? It certainly doesn't make her background plausible, but hey, at least it'd make it a little less stupid Unfortunately, I have absolutely no recollection of ever hearing or reading something about her relatives in Europe. If you could point out exactly where she said it, I'd be grateful.
Case 5, interrogating Athena before the trial.
Quote:
Oh, and Rubes, how about Facebook? I almost deleted a super important email when getting rid of the notifications you get when you receive a message on this site, causing me no small amount of discomfort.
Sure. You can manage your subscriptions from the user control panel, in case you didn't know. In the side tab with "board preferences", there's an option to change default notifications too.
Bad Player wrote:
It's not about making AA's world's laws fit with our own. It's about making its laws fit with itself. A certain universe and standards were set up in the first few games, and a character like Athena comes along and throws them out the window.
The thing is, those standards you speak of weren't clear in the first place. I've questioned an example earlier too; what exactly is necessary to gain a legit law degree in this universe? Is a badge all that matters? It doesn't fit with real world applications, so what do we base it off of?
Don't mind the technological inconsistencies; they're not important. It doesn't even matter that there's someone who knows how to reproduce Widget and share its wonders with the world. Such people can simply decide not to share it to the public and/or perhaps leave such tech in the hands of the government so they can better spy on other countries' politicians or something.
The first game was already pretty silly and lighthearted in its storytelling. Breaking traditions is what this series has been about. I see little point complaining about whatever "standards" being broken when they haven't even been established well. Anyone can leave these points up to bad writing or whatnot. But, hey, isn't that the norm?
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
The first game was already pretty silly and lighthearted in its storytelling. Breaking traditions is what this series has been about. I see little point complaining about whatever "standards" being broken when they haven't even been established well. Anyone can leave these points up to bad writing or whatnot. But, hey, isn't that the norm?
Agreed as long as we're having fun what does it matter?
"Follow Your heart out of the darkness! Stand up and rise from the ashes! Back to the start, far from the madness. Come alive again! Break off the chains of hesitation! Your voice will be your salvation! Look to the light of liberation waiting at the end!"
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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The fact of the matter is that she DID more or less appear out of nowhere; this game is still titled "Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney - Dual Destinies", and even though it's a mouthful, it has Phoenix's name in it, and all the trailers focused on him coming back. This also happened right after Apollo Justice, where a lot of fans complained about his lack of characterization. Yet even in spite of this, the game is more about Athena than Phoenix or Apollo, something that caught many of us by surprise.
The black hole sue comparison didn't require Edgeworth or Apollo to instantly take pity on her; it required them to get personally involved with her story, which they did. Like I said earlier, most plot points at the end do. Also, calling Aura "upset by the situation" would be an understatement considering she took several people hostage. Sure, it wasn't portrayed well, but she did.
As for the overarching theme, and I think I've got more people in agreement here when I say this, was one of the worst things about Dual Destinies. The "Dark Age of the Law" was a vague and nonsensical concept at best, and it did a poor job of tying everything together. I honestly believe Mr. Yamazaki would be better of trying NOT to have an epic theme or overarching story going on in his games simply because he has yet to prove that he's capable of writing it well enough, but once again, that's all my opinion.
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Thane wrote:
Ucha, we've never once tried making people dislike Athena, I hope you realize that, and that there's no need for you to sound so personally offended. Also, you're quick to bring in other characters into the mix even though this is a thread about Athena. I most certainly don't ignore flaws of other characters, but few people have suffered so grievously from bad writing as Athena, which leads to debates like this with people who liked her character.
The fact of the matter is that she DID more or less appear out of nowhere; this game is still titled "Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney - Dual Destinies", and even though it's a mouthful, it has Phoenix's name in it, and all the trailers focused on him coming back. This also happened right after Apollo Justice, where a lot of fans complained about his lack of characterization. Yet even in spite of this, the game is more about Athena than Phoenix or Apollo, something that caught many of us by surprise.
The black hole sue comparison didn't require Edgeworth or Apollo to instantly take pity on her; it required them to get personally involved with her story, which they did. Like I said earlier, most plot points at the end do. Also, calling Aura "upset by the situation" would be an understatement considering she took several people hostage. Sure, it wasn't portrayed well, but she did.
As for the overarching theme, and I think I've got more people in agreement here when I say this, was one of the worst things about Dual Destinies. The "Dark Age of the Law" was a vague and nonsensical concept at best, and it did a poor job of tying everything together. I honestly believe Mr. Yamazaki would be better of trying NOT to have an epic theme or overarching story going on in his games simply because he has yet to prove that he's capable of writing it well enough, but once again, that's all my opinion.
The fact of the matter is that she DID more or less appear out of nowhere; this game is still titled "Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney - Dual Destinies", and even though it's a mouthful, it has Phoenix's name in it, and all the trailers focused on him coming back. This also happened right after Apollo Justice, where a lot of fans complained about his lack of characterization. Yet even in spite of this, the game is more about Athena than Phoenix or Apollo, something that caught many of us by surprise.
The black hole sue comparison didn't require Edgeworth or Apollo to instantly take pity on her; it required them to get personally involved with her story, which they did. Like I said earlier, most plot points at the end do. Also, calling Aura "upset by the situation" would be an understatement considering she took several people hostage. Sure, it wasn't portrayed well, but she did.
As for the overarching theme, and I think I've got more people in agreement here when I say this, was one of the worst things about Dual Destinies. The "Dark Age of the Law" was a vague and nonsensical concept at best, and it did a poor job of tying everything together. I honestly believe Mr. Yamazaki would be better of trying NOT to have an epic theme or overarching story going on in his games simply because he has yet to prove that he's capable of writing it well enough, but once again, that's all my opinion.
Maybe you're right and I was taking it too personally. But I guess...It's weird for me to say this...but...I kinda related to Athena personality-wise. (Not story-wise) And as I played I had no problems. BUT thinking back to the whole "Dark age of law" thing it was really MUCH too vague. By overarching story I meant the cases. And as I said the final case alone was one of the weakest. But DAMN that twist...
"Follow Your heart out of the darkness! Stand up and rise from the ashes! Back to the start, far from the madness. Come alive again! Break off the chains of hesitation! Your voice will be your salvation! Look to the light of liberation waiting at the end!"
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Ucha Nekome wrote:
Thane wrote:
Ucha, we've never once tried making people dislike Athena, I hope you realize that, and that there's no need for you to sound so personally offended. Also, you're quick to bring in other characters into the mix even though this is a thread about Athena. I most certainly don't ignore flaws of other characters, but few people have suffered so grievously from bad writing as Athena, which leads to debates like this with people who liked her character.
The fact of the matter is that she DID more or less appear out of nowhere; this game is still titled "Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney - Dual Destinies", and even though it's a mouthful, it has Phoenix's name in it, and all the trailers focused on him coming back. This also happened right after Apollo Justice, where a lot of fans complained about his lack of characterization. Yet even in spite of this, the game is more about Athena than Phoenix or Apollo, something that caught many of us by surprise.
The black hole sue comparison didn't require Edgeworth or Apollo to instantly take pity on her; it required them to get personally involved with her story, which they did. Like I said earlier, most plot points at the end do. Also, calling Aura "upset by the situation" would be an understatement considering she took several people hostage. Sure, it wasn't portrayed well, but she did.
As for the overarching theme, and I think I've got more people in agreement here when I say this, was one of the worst things about Dual Destinies. The "Dark Age of the Law" was a vague and nonsensical concept at best, and it did a poor job of tying everything together. I honestly believe Mr. Yamazaki would be better of trying NOT to have an epic theme or overarching story going on in his games simply because he has yet to prove that he's capable of writing it well enough, but once again, that's all my opinion.
The fact of the matter is that she DID more or less appear out of nowhere; this game is still titled "Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney - Dual Destinies", and even though it's a mouthful, it has Phoenix's name in it, and all the trailers focused on him coming back. This also happened right after Apollo Justice, where a lot of fans complained about his lack of characterization. Yet even in spite of this, the game is more about Athena than Phoenix or Apollo, something that caught many of us by surprise.
The black hole sue comparison didn't require Edgeworth or Apollo to instantly take pity on her; it required them to get personally involved with her story, which they did. Like I said earlier, most plot points at the end do. Also, calling Aura "upset by the situation" would be an understatement considering she took several people hostage. Sure, it wasn't portrayed well, but she did.
As for the overarching theme, and I think I've got more people in agreement here when I say this, was one of the worst things about Dual Destinies. The "Dark Age of the Law" was a vague and nonsensical concept at best, and it did a poor job of tying everything together. I honestly believe Mr. Yamazaki would be better of trying NOT to have an epic theme or overarching story going on in his games simply because he has yet to prove that he's capable of writing it well enough, but once again, that's all my opinion.
Maybe you're right and I was taking it too personally. But I guess...It's weird for me to say this...but...I kinda related to Athena personality-wise. (Not story-wise) And as I played I had no problems. BUT thinking back to the whole "Dark age of law" thing it was really MUCH too vague. By overarching story I meant the cases. And as I said the final case alone was one of the weakest. But DAMN that twist...
There was a twist in the final case? I must've missed that.
Also, Athena DID say she went to Europe to live with her relatives, but that she still stayed "in her own little shell". She also became a lawyer because of Phoenix; she previously had no idea how else to save Blackquill. Of course, like everything surrounding Athena, that raises several questions, but for now I'm content having a reason why she went to Europe in the first place. Doesn't explain the rest of the nonsense, but hey.
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
The law is full of contradictions.
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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Thane wrote:
There was a twist in the final case? I must've missed that.
Spoiler:
"Follow Your heart out of the darkness! Stand up and rise from the ashes! Back to the start, far from the madness. Come alive again! Break off the chains of hesitation! Your voice will be your salvation! Look to the light of liberation waiting at the end!"
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Ucha Nekome wrote:
For me DD had an engaging overarching story, that I enjoyed and while playing really had no problem with.
You mean you thought 1-5 had an engaging story
Quote:
And I feel she's being unjustly criticized for problems that have always been with the Ace Attorney series. And it's seems REALLY unfair that people are willing to ignore the flaws other games and characters have in the series but not Athena cause she happens to have two or three traits that make her "special."
As Thane mentioned, the reason we're complaining about only Athena in this thread is because this is the thread to discuss Athena, NOT just any old character we have a problem with. That there are no complaints about a certain character in this thread doesn't mean that we're ignoring that character's faults.
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And by the way, just because she won ONE CASE doesn't make her a genius lawyer!
"Genius" and "lawyer" were separate terms; not one, single "genius lawyer" term.
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Almost every problem you have wither boils down to age and lack of detail in her back-story and ability.
Yeah... okay? Those are some pretty huge problems y'know.
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There is nothing wrong with a character being liked.
You're right, not in itself. There's no problem with any one of Athena's traits individually. While I think the biggest one is the fact that she's an 18 year-old attorney protagonist, I think a character like that could be done well. The problem with Athena is all of her traits taken together. She just has too much.
Quote:
And as I said before. Some characters, ESPECIALLY AURA, didn't like her.
Yes, villains don't like Athena. That really just serves to make Athena look even better. (Bad guys don't like Athena? Must be because Athena is good!)
Quote:
You can argue and complain till your blue in the face, but my liking for Athena's character is no less then when I started.
k
Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
It's not about making AA's world's laws fit with our own. It's about making its laws fit with itself. A certain universe and standards were set up in the first few games, and a character like Athena comes along and throws them out the window.
The thing is, those standards you speak of weren't clear in the first place. I've questioned an example earlier too; what exactly is necessary to gain a legit law degree in this universe? Is a badge all that matters? It doesn't fit with real world applications, so what do we base it off of?
Don't mind the technological inconsistencies; they're not important. It doesn't even matter that there's someone who knows how to reproduce Widget and share its wonders with the world. Such people can simply decide not to share it to the public and/or perhaps leave such tech in the hands of the government so they can better spy on other countries' politicians or something.
The first game was already pretty silly and lighthearted in its storytelling. Breaking traditions is what this series has been about. I see little point complaining about whatever "standards" being broken when they haven't even been established well. Anyone can leave these points up to bad writing or whatnot. But, hey, isn't that the norm?
Isn't the bar exam mentioned a few points in the game? However, I don't think the badge is all the matters. After all, isn't the description something like "proof of my profession"? In other words, the badge doesn't allow Nick to defend, but rather shows he's able to. Plus, it's established in the entire series that people who become attornies young are supposed to be geniuses (starting with Edgey, who was only one at 20); that much is undeniable, at least. (And please don't go "Being an attorney that young is normal in this universe!". I don't want to have to post the same thing for the third time on a single page.)
In a game that's supposed to be about story, I think massive technological inconsistencies like that are important. Yes, the mind-reading applications of Widget are just a gimmick, and don't actually factor into anything, and could be removed without a single other change to the game. But it makes it feel like they just slapped it onto Widget to make Athena even more special for the sake of making Athena special and unique and amazing, without any consideration for the broader implications of AA-land. In other words, shoddy character building/development/creation.
I dunno, I feel like there's a difference between "traditions" in terms of typical mystery/story tropes, and "traditions" set by the games themselves. I guess they aren't that well-set, but we've never had a "genius" be a protagonist/defense attorney, we've never had a power that was totally unexplained, we've never had a genius who had zero connection to law before becoming a lawyer, we've never had a single character take on so many "roles" in a single game... Maybe there isn't anything wrong with breaking traditions in itself, but there's certainly something wrong with doing it badly.
And about bad writing... While AA won't be winning the Pulitzer Prize anytime soon, I still like to believe that the story and characters have been good. With Athena and DD, to put it bluntly, it just... isn't.
Thane wrote:
I honestly believe Mr. Yamazaki would be better of trying NOT to have an epic theme or overarching story going on in his games simply because he has yet to prove that he's capable of writing it well enough, but once again, that's all my opinion.
Yamazaki is good at doing personal overarching stories. Problems arise when he tries to do stories that are too big in scope, like an international crime ring or the entire legal system.
Thane wrote:
There was a twist in the final case? I must've missed that.
QFT
Credit to Evolina for the sig+avatar!
Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)
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Bad Player wrote:
You mean you thought 1-5 had an engaging story
As Thane mentioned, the reason we're complaining about only Athena in this thread is because this is the thread to discuss Athena, NOT just any old character we have a problem with. That there are no complaints about a certain character in this thread doesn't mean that we're ignoring that character's faults.
"Genius" and "lawyer" were separate terms; not one, single "genius lawyer" term.
Yeah... okay? Those are some pretty huge problems y'know.
You're right, not in itself. There's no problem with any one of Athena's traits individually. While I think the biggest one is the fact that she's an 18 year-old attorney protagonist, I think a character like that could be done well. The problem with Athena is all of her traits taken together. She just has too much.
Yes, villains don't like Athena. That really just serves to make Athena look even better. (Bad guys don't like Athena? Must be because Athena is good!)
k
As Thane mentioned, the reason we're complaining about only Athena in this thread is because this is the thread to discuss Athena, NOT just any old character we have a problem with. That there are no complaints about a certain character in this thread doesn't mean that we're ignoring that character's faults.
"Genius" and "lawyer" were separate terms; not one, single "genius lawyer" term.
Yeah... okay? Those are some pretty huge problems y'know.
You're right, not in itself. There's no problem with any one of Athena's traits individually. While I think the biggest one is the fact that she's an 18 year-old attorney protagonist, I think a character like that could be done well. The problem with Athena is all of her traits taken together. She just has too much.
Yes, villains don't like Athena. That really just serves to make Athena look even better. (Bad guys don't like Athena? Must be because Athena is good!)
k
Spoiler:
"Follow Your heart out of the darkness! Stand up and rise from the ashes! Back to the start, far from the madness. Come alive again! Break off the chains of hesitation! Your voice will be your salvation! Look to the light of liberation waiting at the end!"
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