Gettin' Old!
Gender: Male
Location: Scotland
Rank: Ace Attorney
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:30 pm
Posts: 14363
Oho welcome.
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She's a Mary Sue: Prosecution...Why are you beating this point into the ground? Mary Sue, is a VERY vague, and much overused excuse to hate a character. Why on earth would you even argue the term in this court? It's meaning changes from person to person as an excuse to point out the flaws, or lack there of, of a character who just seems to tick people off. Now tell me...Is that even fair? Well weather it's fair or not, Mary Sue is too flexible a label to hold any ground in this court. Why according to some definitions Mia is a Mary Sue. Yeah wrap your head around that one! (She's not by the way just by some definitions of the word she is.) The point is there is no reason to even argue that Athena is a Mary Sue because the term is so flexible you can literally make a claim that most characters in nearly every form of media are Mary Sues making the term...pointless.
It's not all that vague, if you wanted me to refine the term I'd define her as a Black-Hole Sue, one who draws absolutely everything towards her. Everyone knows what a Mary Sue is, a character who is so perfect and 'blessed' beyond believability to the point of annoyance. People point out she is flawed and traumatised but it's not done well, the worst of her trauma is in case 3 and she overcomes it so quickly I'm surprised they bring it back and even then someone always comes to rescue her so she never really shows any strength herself. Mary Sue is a vague term but really it's just the result of the other problems.
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She got her degree too young: This is true. However this isn't the first time Phoenix Wright games have done this. But I have a theory why they made her so young. Phoenix is now in his thirties. Apollo in his twenties. And now we have Athena in her teens. Capcom has successfully made sure they will never run out of attorney games. Let me clarify. By placing someone as young as Athena in here, if Phoenix were to ever get too old to be the protagonist, he has two young Attorneys just waiting to take his place. It sounds cruel...but it's true. Feenee ain't getting any younger people and Capcom wants to make sure one of it's best selling franchises has insurance. It's sad that Athena had to be the one because now everyone's jumping on it. Also, and I hate to bring this up, but Franziska Von Karma got her license at 14...FOURTEEN! Even if she is a "Von Karma" that is freaking nuts! There is NO excuse for anyone to get their licence that early...So that's why I say in Phoenix Wright land an attorney's badge at 18 is no biggy, prodigy or not.
I don't think age and getting too old are really a problem, they made Phoenix a protagonist in his thirties and look at Von Karma, he looks plenty old and he was still in the business. If they got on so long that Phoenix's age caused him to retire I hardly imagine Apollo and Athena would be young bucks as well to relate to the players they'd probably just bring in someone new at the standard 20-22 age range and tell a new story.
And no I'm afraid Franziska Von Karma being a "Von Karma" isn't as nuts for some as others. She had an extremely influential father in the law industry who took it upon himself to educate his children. I can believe he could pull strings and educate her to meet his goals and get it on her own. Also it's not a case of Franziska got it so early at fourteen, it's a case of Athena got it in SEVEN YEARS. From her first school, with no real outstanding intellectual ability, with no connections of influence in the field of law to help her into a university. For Franziska, she at least has some elements in her favour, Athena has literally nothing to justify it or stretch believability.
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She's a "Prodigy": I think only Phoenix thinks of her as a prodigy. He sees her talent and is impressed. Nothing wrong with that. We've had more "prodigies" in Phoenix Wright than any game I've seen thus far. Cause apparently every prodigy in the world likes to migrate to LAokio! (My pet name for Phoenix Wright land.) Honestly I'd be surprised if she WASN'T a prodigy. Does that make it right? No...Does it really matter in the long run? I think not.
Well she's a prodigy by virtue of her record-time-law degree. That's the same virtue by which Franny and Klavier are considered prodigies and she's outdone both of them.
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She's too "Liked":...Really?...This is one of the "reasons" my client is being accused of being a "Mary Sue"? Ok...Let me put this into perspective. Most characters in game, dislike Phoenix and are for the most part indifferent to Apollo. Now for once in the entire series a Lawyer is liked and it's considered a FLAW!? If that isn't some screwed up logic I don't know what is. Let me explain just how screwed up it is to think being "liked" is a flaw in this particular case. Phoenix often is liked by people he's close to...but that's about it. Why because he uses tactics in the courtroom and even in normal conversation that are unconventional. By pushing peoples buttons and making them angry he digs up peoples innermost secrets to blatantly reveals them in the courtroom. Honestly...if you had someone who kept digging into your personal affairs what would you think of them. Apollo on the other hand for the most part completely ignored half the time. he sometimes even frightens people with his hair...don't know why...I mean no wonder he's screaming all the time, everyone, even, the prosecutor, takes over his cases! It was only ever in Dual Destinies that he got a case to himself without having anyone hijacking it, or the prosecution agreeing with him. Not only that but there are characters who actually like him! (Other than Trucy, Kaliver, and Phoenix, who have always liked him...they just ignore him allot.) This being said, Athena get's a single case in the entire game, and it's defending her friend. Of course the friends of her friends are gonna like her for what she's doing. And by the way, I can name at least THREE people, in game, who don't like Athena. Aura Blackquill, Professor Means, and the Phantom. Sure Professor Means ACTED like he liked her...but I have a feeling he HATED being pushed aside as defense. And in case 5 two people are clearly willing to sacrifice her for their own personal means. So in the end I feel this particular argument has no grounds. Just because Blakquill was willing to sacrifice himself for the daughter of his loved mentor, and Phoenix was worried about her, doesn't make her a badly written character.
Athena does offensive digging into people's secrets too y'know? In fact I'd say she does it WORSE than Phoenix or Apollo does. This new 'emotional reveal' can come across as real difficult and painful for the individual involved as it's much more personal to them. In particular, I'm talking about how Athena 'outed' Robin that seemed really heartless but she does it without a second thought or any hesitation. Fortunately Robin feels liberated by it but given her hesitation and resistance before I thought that came off as pretty poorly handled in the situation. Also a character disliking someone doesn't really mean much if they are the villain and Aura, Means and the Phantom ALL played the villain at points in the story. It makes them seem more villainous when they dislike such a beloved character. Of all the characters that had meaningful interactions with Athena who weren't villainous they all seemed to like Athena.
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Similar Subject: Oh and by the way Phoenix was also worried about Trucy! IDK what the heck you guys mean when you said he was ONLY worried about Athena. He was just dwelling on the subject because he was responsible for her and if she turned out to be a murderer it would be his fault for bringing her there. He was very confused for a bit, but once he got his head clear (thanks to Maya) he was able to focus on what needed to be done...It's like you're expecting him to turn his back on Athena in favor of Trucy and if you know anything about Phoenix you'd know he'd never do that. That and this wasn't his first kidnapping experience. Hell this wasn't even his first high pressure experience! So he knew dwelling on Trucy's situation wasn't gonna get him anywhere so he focused on doing his job.
Well...yeah...I would expect him to show a great deal more concern Trucy than he did for Athena. Sure he'd been in a kidnapping experience before but does that mean it's going to be any less traumatic? Also Maya was a friend at the time he'd known for like a year or so, Trucy is his adopted DAUGHTER of over 7 years, sure Trucy is capable and can take care of herself but I still felt that in a moment that should have belonged to Phoenix and Apollo freaking out the plot was sidetracked by the heavy focus on Athena. I mean I understand that yes, this would have to be the time to reveal Athena's backstory and everything but I don't felt they gave them the moment they deserved for Trucy before the Athena-truck came along to draw focus. It's the sort of situation I'd expect him to say "Gotta do this...can't let Trucy down" but it came across more as "I can't let Athena think she killed her mother" and granted Phoenix probably would care about both those things but...that first part wasn't there.
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She shouldn't have a special "MAGICAL" power: Well if we go by that logic, Maya shouldn't be able to channel spirits the way she does, Apollo shouldn't be able to see little twitches, and Phoenix shouldn't be able to see Psyche Locks. This is a VIDEO GAME and your expecting it to work like the real world, when...it clearly isn't. Take the way Maya channels spirits. Her whole Physical appearance changes. If something like this happened in real life, you'd be able to have full conversations with your dead grandmother and see her as she looked just as she died only in a young woman's body! The point I'm making here is Phoenix Wright takes place in a world all it's own. It's set it's own laws and takes place in it's own time. That's like saying Pokemon takes place in real life and follows our laws JUST cause they mention REAL places in the real world. CLEARLY, cause all our mice shoot electricity in the real world...no wait...they freaking don't!
I don't have a problem with her having a power, it's just her power is unexplained and comes from nowhere. Maya's comes from spiritual power and her family's bloodline. Apollo's BARELY counts as a power (it can be taught to Phoenix after all so it's perfectly possible for non-Gramayres to detect twitches at some level) but it's also in the bloodline of his family, it has a recognisable source. We are told Athena has super hearing to the point she can "hear the voices of the heart", this is never explained in any detail, nor is there any source. Not from Father, not from Mother, not from a radioactive spider bite. She just HAS it, I'd have bought it if it was just a function of Widget, like a microphone or something perhaps something that takes physiological readings and makes a gander at what emotions the person is experiencing at the time but no...it's a power of Athena's and it comes from nowhere.
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She just pops out of nowhere: So did Apollo, what's you're point?
Apollo was introduced in "Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney" everyone knew he was coming and it was a new launch of Ace Attorney on the 3DS. Hell for a while we didn't even know Phoenix Wright was in it but we did know Apollo was going to be there. This game was advertised as "Phoenix Wright: Dual Destinies" I don't have a problem with introducing new characters but Athena came out of left field and hijacked a game that had featured Phoenix and Apollo heavily in their marketing to the point folks thought they'd be the main characters. Which ties neatly into this:
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She's too involved with the games story:...Sigh...Has it not occurred to you that she as a PLAYABLE CHARACTER was originally supposed to have her own game...and maybe, JUST MAYBE, because people would not stop bitching about Apollo, (who by the way is a great character as well) JUST MAYBE her title was turned into a Phoenix Wright title so that people would stop bitching that there was no phoenix in this. So if we go by that logic, the fact that she's a new PLAYABLE Lawyer, means she SHOULD have gotten her own game by right...however...she was the ONLY lawyer (other than Mia) who didn't get her own game. Edgeworth is a PROSECUTOR and he got his own game, TWO
OF THEM! And you're saying that Athena...Is too involved...in the debut of her character. *smaks lips*

What kind of logic is that?! Seriously, I feel as if you guys are just complaining for the sake of complaining!
Was she originally supposed to have her own game? That's a pretty big claim and the first I've heard of it. In fact unless you have some evidence to support that theory I don't think I'm really going to entertain it for much. People were either hoping for Apollo Justice 2 or a return for Phoenix to the courts and the advertising and title made to indicate it was going to be the latter. Do you have some evidence it was going to be an Athena game originally? Because the theory doesn't fly at all without evidence. The problem is they sold it as a story about Phoenix and yet Athena gets more screen time than the protagonist.
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She's too good of a lawyer for her age: She's won a single case and she wasn't alone. Her second case she nearly lost to a PAYNE because she was alone. Even in her own case her inexperience shows, it's made up by her intuition and resources. She's not perfect and yeah you could argue the fact that she's good enough to win ONE case against Blackquill is impressive. But this goes back to the fact that she became a lawyer in a world where a 14 year old prosecutor can win EVERY case they have until they face Phoenix...And saying that it's JUST because she's a "Von Karma" is NOT a valid excuse. Sure he could have brought her up on law. But to pass ANY bar exam you need some sort of law degree. I'm guessing Germerica has some super law training program where you can get all your studies in in a couple of years.
I don't really have much of a problem with this it's not a complaint I've made much at least, all my complaints with this bit are covered earlier in the 'prodigy' section so I feel I'd be treading old ground. I wouldn't say she's an exceptional lawyer on her own at least no more that the other lawyers.
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She has a Psychology degree: OK...You can MAJOR, and MINOR in any field. She didn't get a doctorate, she just studied it while studying law. The fact that she did this by age 18 is ridiculous, but so is an 8 year old sprouting a full woman's body.
It's a suggestion, but the degree she talks about 'psychology' gives the impression she's had time to study it professionally which is still a bit to ask on top of her what must be hell-bent study of law. Either way the fact there's no information about it leaves her so vague and confusing.
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Athena's back-story is just for show and it won't effect her in later games: Have you ever had a traumatic experience? I have...It happened when I was 7...I'm 24 and I STILL haven't gotten completely over it...But Like Athena, I've chosen to not let it cripple me. I'm not gonna dwell all emo in a corner. If she did fall back on her traumas that would be like taking a step back. And in Psycology taking 1 step back means you need to take 3 steps forward to get back to where you were to begin with. The next game hasn't come out yet. So the fact that your assuming the writers will just erase her character's trauma is pure conjecture. But don't expect it to hold her back and make her incompetent ether.
Well perhaps not but after all that went down in the final case I'd have thought she'd have gotten closure on the matter since it wrapped up all the mysteries of her past that we knew about and unlocked her repressed thoughts and cleared her mind of all doubts. If that's not overcoming a traumatic experience in the AA world I don't know what will. It might not matter much in later games, they might just casually mention how the case turned everything around for her but I doubt she'll relapse into 'breakdown' mode again.
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Similar Subject: Did you know some people with disorders are geniuses? I personally believe that Athena has PTSD and Bipolar. Though not confirmed it's a strong possibility, and would explain why she's good at her job. But that's just a theory based on what I know.
Big assumptions and not necessarily true on all cases. PTSD also isn't one of the disorders associated with such 'boosts'. I think you are referring to Autistic Savants, who have very focused narrow interests and plenty of social problems to come with and she doesn't display the social awkwardness or intense focused interests of someone with Autism.
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She's ANOTHER Lawyer
Have folks actually made this complaint before?
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So here we are at the end of my little debate. But before I go I must make one thing clear. Characters in Phoenix wright are flawed, VERY flawed, in their writing. HOWEVER; the usual case is that they are so likable that these flaws are ignored. Take Godot for example, in case 3/5 he, as a prosecutor, was going to let a girl he dragged into the mess he caused, as well as the sister of the person he loved, take the fall for murdering the MOTHER of the person he loved, all for the sake of a revenge plot that depended SOLELY on Phoenix's decision to go to a cold mountain...which NOT ONLY did he not tell the police but he didn't tell Phoenix due to misplaced anger and a grudge...HELL he could have easily explained this to Maya at ANY point and none of the events in case 3/5 would ever have happened. Maya could have easily explained to Pearl "Listen, I know it was you're mothers wish...but you can never call this spirit...SHE'S EVIL" Then badda-bing badda-boom, case closed, catastrophe avoided! But this was all forgiven...because he cried blood at the end and is an overall cool character. Despite this seriously twisted messed up plot he came up with people, and admittedly I, like him. Not as a villain...but as a character. And so I leave you with this...If your so focused on weather a person is a Mary Sue or not. Consider this...Did you enjoy your time with that character despite any flaws? If the answer is yes, then the rest doesn't matter. If you enjoy yourself and continue enjoying yourself, then what does it matter? I for one enjoyed Athena's character and hope to see more of her in the future. As as for all of you who don't enjoy her character...that's fine. Everyone has an opinion. But to label a character as one thing when each character, like each person, is different...It's the same as being labeled a freak or monster. Sure it's a descriptive word, but it was made in the vain of being hurtful to fanfic writers. Characters with little to no flaws exist...But I do not believe Athena is one of them.
Well sure I liked bits of Athena's character but she detracted from the overall experience of the game with all these little niggly bits. I recognise there's room for an energetic optimistic go-getting female lawyer in the team to counteract off Apollo's intense seriousness and Phoenix's laid-back wisened calmer approach but she's got all this unanswered baggage that just drag her down for me. Then you add in the fact she's in our face almost all the time and it drags down everything with her a bit.
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