Yeah, she mentioned at the beginning of the game that she listens to people's hidden voices and enters the data into the program. Unless she's around, Phoenix and Apollo can't do anything with Widget... aside surf the web. That thing has long-ranged wifi, right? Daaaawww, I really want one now.

I wonder about what more unique features to the Mood Matrix that we can play with. The very fact it only has FOUR emoticons to use is still disappointing. Analytical psychology normally explores an incredibly wide range, and the simplest model summarizes the range to six general emotions: happiness, anger, sadness, disgust, fear, and surprise. Rarely, there'd be a seventh one related to deep grief, aka despair. Three of them are rolled up into one emoticon. That's not fair! I want a six or seven buttons to play with! Then we can play Simon Says competitively.

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I think we already had that in the game didn't we?

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^ That's only proving my point further. What else is there to explore with the Mood Matrix when we've reached this point? Admittedly, adding more emotions in there would only unnecessarily complicate things. This is the main reason why I feel that Athena's not going to shine so much any more from this point on. She's already outgrown her original intended purpose, aside from being a rookie lawyer. There's plenty of time with that left.

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:P Aww but they can totally go into her hidden cyborg-background.

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Cyborg-lawyer-pirate girl. Right next to English-weaboo-convict-prosecutor guy. This game is going a direction.

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Maybe Athena just dumbed it down so Phoenix and Apollo can understand, and when we get Athena Cykes: Ace Attorney, every cross examination in the game will be picking out the correct emotion from several hundred possibilities.

"You expressed a mix of 40% fear, 30% anger, and 30%surprise, but my analysis shows that you should have expressed a mix of 35% fear, 35% anger, and 30% surprise! Explain this contradiction!"

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It's kind of sad how much sense this makes.


The magatama is explained through the Fey family powers, which is biological and has a long history and yadda yadda yadda. Polly also gets his powers biologically, and they even came up with a pseudo-scientific explanation for how the bracelet mechanically functions, rather than leaving it as "OOOOO MAGIIIIIIIC~~"

Athena has magical super-hearing that isn't explained AT ALL. (I think we can conclude that it wasn't genetic from the fact that Metis was studying Athena; why study Athena if she could study herself?) Athena also has a one-of-a-kind machine that can read her thoughts without any direct physical connection to her nervous system, create and display a floating hologram that also functions as a touch screen, and is small and light enough to be used as a necklace. On top of the multitude of other positive character traits she possesses.

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I think the idea that psychoanalysis in Ace Attorney world will have progressed to the point where there are prototypes of machines that can read a user's and other's emotions by tones in the voice is much, much more realistic than magical lie telling spirit medium heirlooms or bracelets founded in special DNA mutations, regardless of how much explanation goes into those things. One of those I could actually picture being realistically developed in this world (even if it is a hundred or so years from now). The other two are so far fetched they would take a miracle to exist.

People were leveling these exact same sorts of complaints at Apollo and his bracelet when AJ came out, and now he's completely accepted by the Ace Attorney fandom. Give Athena another game or so to get fully settled in to the role of either main or important side character and people will have accepted her as well.

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Explained or not, it's still just magic.


Admittedly I don't remember the exact explanation, but I'm pretty sure it boiled down to "it's a genetic thing so that's why the bracelet reacts when he wears it", which really isn't much better than just saying it's magic.


Does every little thing really need to be explicitly explained to be credible? For that matter, doesn't it make more sense that people don't quite know why Athena has super hearing if her mother spent so much time researching it? Maybe it's just a genetic anomaly; just because one person has magic powers doesn't mean everyone related to them has the same powers (this has come up in the series before).


Well, it was built in a cutting-edge space/robotics center. In the future. And it's still nowhere near as ridiculous as Little Thief, which predates Widget by at least five years.

Besides, didn't the Ace Attorney movie have holographic evidence?



-edit- Or yeah, could just read BlarghMan's post since it's more concise than my rambling mess.

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"Let me just enter the data into the Mood Matrix."
HOW many times did she say that during the game...? HOW many times does she have to say it before people catch on?

Widget is just a computer. Athena is performing data entry into it. I'm pretty sure the massive background about her abilities and a full course in psychology was not so that she could push buttons. As for announcing her thoughts, I'm pretty sure that was comic relief (and speculative fan-humor fuel) more than most else.

During the game, it just shows her tapping a few buttons to update it, but that's probably because the riveting courtroom excitement of filling out AC-CR1202 Patient Psychiatric Evaluation Form(s) line by line asking the witness "Have you had recent thoughts of feeling down, or depressed...?" might be too intense for some viewers.

Anyone who knows that autistic people exist should have no trouble believing why/how someone can hear people's emotions. If you read a lot of magazines and newspapers and travel the world, you will likely find hundreds of people with talents you probably thought were beyond the impossibility of even fiction. You may not find someone precisely like Athena, but it's easily within the plausible realms of Sci-Fi.

Still, I completely agree with the android theory. I mean, the prosecution usually brings a weapon to court...why shouldn't the defense get an arm laser or something?

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It's not about realism... It's about having some sort of explanation. Giving someone a superpower with no explanation is just turning them into a boring, unbelievable plot device.

Also Widget isn't reading just her (and others') emotions: it's reading her mind, too. So that begs the question: why has this technology not been seen ANYWHERE up until this point? You'd think reading the suspect's and witnesses' minds would be much quicker and easier than having the whole trial affair.

Don't forget that Widget is both portable and acts remotely. I have quite a hard time believing it's merely a "prototype" of the technology.


Just because manually entered data is a part of it doesn't mean it's the only part of it.

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I'll start with the explanation of Widget, and then move on to my bigger problem with your argument as a whole.

As for why Widget hasn't been seen anywhere else, it's likely because it's government technology. The robots created by Metis Cykes are (or at least, were, before Aura beat up on them) capable of doing the same thing, and were probably used explicitly for work inside of the space station. Metis probably worked on a prototype version of that, one that was small enough to be placed around someone's neck. If Metis had lived, it probably would have found it's way out onto the open market and mass produced. Metis died, however, and Widget was inherited by Athena. Since Athena was too young to think of marketing Widgets, and Aura was too depressed to do anything, the two people that could have brought Widget from one of a kind to many of a kind were both in no state to do so.

Widget doesn't read Athena's mind, it reads her tone of voice. All of the times in which it blurts out something, it's because Athena says something beforehand. Like when Phoenix asks her if she was scared, she claims she wasn't, at which point Widget reads her voice, analyzes it, and spits out the analysis of what she's thinking.

At least I'm pretty sure that's the way it works. I'll have to go back and play through DD to make sure, but I believe every time Widget speaks, it's after Athena does. If not, then perhaps it can also read posture, or tell from her expressions. Considering that Metis' robots had facial recognition scanners, that's not too far fetched either.

Addressing your argument as to what makes a character believable, though, from what I can tell, you're essentially arguing that no matter how ridiculous a power is, as long as it gets "some" explanation, it becomes believable. If an Ace Attorney character had the power to fly, and gave the explanation of "well I got the ability to fly from my family's genes," would that suddenly make the character believable?

Yeah, there is some suspension of belief required for the Mood Matrix. There's a heck of a lot more required for a tell spotting bracelet, regardless of whether you insert a "it's in the family blood" explanation or not. There's even more required for a piece of jewelry that spots lies, even more so when your explanation behind that is as flimsy as "an 8 year old infused it with spiritual power."

An unbelievable power combined with an unbelievable explanation does not a believable ability make. Like I said, at the very least, Athena's technology has the potential to be invented at some point in the next several hundred years. There's no way on Earth that Apollo's or Phoenix's powers are ever going to be realized.

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First off, while you have a very nice explanation and argument, no matter how much you explain, it doesn't change the fact that it isn't in the game itself; you're providing a possible explanation, but the power is still totally unexplained in the game itself.

Second, I don't remember either, but my hunch is that there is at least one moment where Widget talks all on its own. ...Considering the only thing I've played recently is the DLC case, if I'm remembering correctly, it's probably from there. With neither of us having proper evidence, however, it's kind of hard to continue this line of discussion :P

Lastly... I find it kind of hard to believe that the government just let remote mind-reading technology leave the country on the body of a pre-teen girl. If it was government research, shouldn't it have belonged to the government, not Metis herself? And, like I said before, I find it very difficult to believe that the first mind-reading piece of technology is small, portable, and able to read minds remotely without any sort of direct connection to the person's brain/nervous system.
(You would think that before coming up with something like that they would make big, clunky machines that plug into your brains, and several iterations of the technology would be necessary before you could make something like Widget. But the problem is that technology so revolutionary and groundbreaking would most likely be known and used for a ton of stuff, but... it isn't.)


...Only if you can explain how Widget analyzes her posture and/or facial expression from its position :P


What I want an explanation of both where the power came from and how it functions that at least isn't totally stupid. Apollo's power's explanation isn't just "He inherited it". He inherited hyper-empathy, which causes his body to unconsciously tense up when someone else does so, which he can consciously feel in his bracelet because it's so tight/it contracts.

Athena's power, however, has an explanation of neither origin nor mechanics (beyond "she hears well")


Well, the power doesn't have to be believable within reality; it needs to be believable within the reality of the game. While the magatama is silly, don't forget it was introduced in the second game, when spirit channeling and magic were already firmly established. If it had literally come out of nowhere, my feelings about it would probably be different. (And while Polly's power does come out of nowhere, they've still established 'magic' to a certain extent through spirit channeling and the magatama, and they give an explanation of both where the power came from and how it works.)

My problem isn't that Athena has this power. (...Okay, I do have a problem with this dual-degree owning 18-year old having magic powers and super-advanced one-of-a-kind technology on top of that, but that's not what we're talking about here.) The problem is that the power isn't explained at all. Like, while investigating Metis' lab in 5-5, they could have easily put in a document written by her that said "From the research I've conducted so far, I believe that Athena has this power because of X, and it operates by mechanism Y" and that would've been totally cool. But... they didn't. So we're left with Athena having, on top of a mountain of other unbelievably positive traits, totally unexplained magic powers and technology out of the blue.


EDIT: I'm not sure if I've made it clear that a lot of this is because Athena is a protagonist.

I mean, you have a character that's a genius, pretty, kind, generally well-liked, athletic, with hyper-advanced technology/unique powers; that's... not very balanced, but it's still a character.

If you're a regular joe schmoe and you have to face down this character that's exciting, because you're just a regular guy, and your opponent is a pretty kind generally well-liked genius with crazy technology/powers, so taking them down seems like a real hurdle.

When you're playing as this character themselves (or they're helping you), and your opponent is someone who just seems to be a regular (albeit rough) guy... well, it's much less tense, and in fact has a negative effect on the tension. I mean, you're a super-genius with technology and magic; how difficult can taking down a regular joe schmoe be?

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I should probably mention that I have a hard time liking the supernatural elements of the series. The spirit channelning is the worst, because it not only defies the very laws of nature and adds an element of disbelief, but the way they use it is also completely illogical; even IF the ghost of a victim can lie, why don't they just have Maya channel it anyway and see if they can learn something new?

However, Phoenix's 'power' is the one I like the most simply because it's not, well, HIS. He can see psyche-locks thanks to the item in his pocket, and nothing else.

I never liked the explanation for Apollo's ability, and I would've preferred it if he just had a magic bracelet instead. However, unlike Athena, Apollo's power at least gets SOME explanation. Not only that, but Apollo doesn't have a multitude of positive traits or even half of Athena's importance, so yeah, that's why Athena's power bothers me more than the others.

It's still not as bad as spirit channeling, mind you, and I say that even though Maya is my favorite character.

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You know, the best thing about channeling is the fact that Phoenix can see the deceased big-boob lady.

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Geez man how long have you played AA if you can't stand the thought of there being magic in the games when it was established in the second case of the series that magic exists in some form?

I think there's too many people who are hating on it for being overly supernatural, but that's their call. Apollo's power barely even counts as supernatural. You could have a character who was a detective-turned-lawyer who spent a great deal of time studying body language of perps in interrogations and just give him the perceive power without the need for magic blood and bracelets. I mean Phoenix can use Apollo's power to an extent thanks to Trucy's tutelage.

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Considering how crazy some of the villains in Dual Destinies are...pretty tough, actually. :p

For me, Athena is a genius in name only. She doesn't seem any smarter than Apollo or Phoenix did at the beginning of their careers. I personally feel the same amount of tension regardless of how smart Athena is supposed to be, because if Ace Attorney has taught us anything, it's that getting your badge early certainly doesn't always translate to success in the courtroom.

At the end of the day, I suppose it all comes down to preference. I find a machine that requires some suspension of belief with little to no explanation much easier to accept than some tool that requires a huge suspension of belief with a flimsy explanation. Yes, there are spirit mediums introduced in Phoenix Wright, and spirit mediums make sense in the context given. There are also engineers with emotion hearing in Phoenix Wright as well, and the game introduces at least one besides Athena (that being Metis).


Keep in mind that this is the government in Ace Attorney. Considering how inept the police force is in the universe, I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that the government simply overlooked Widget and simply relegated control of the robots to Aura.

Or perhaps Widget was picked up by, say, Director Cosmos or someone before the government found it and he personally gave it to Athena. Once again, there are a number of possibilities, and I think the game's time is spent a lot better going over the actual mysteries involved than explaining every detail of how Athena got from where she was to where she is.


Sure. Widget has some sort of camera installed at the top, allowing it to effectively look at Athena from it's position on her chest. I don't want to sound crude in any way, but the design of the female body gives Widget a more extended position than he would have on a male body, allowing for him to actually observe the majority of Athena's facial expressions. He probably combines that with her tone of voice to draw some conclusion.

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Guess what? I agree with you on this one! In fact, this is yet another complaint I have against Athena.

Putting aside how Athena actually acts, however, Super-Genius vs Joe Schmoe is much more interesting when you're the latter than when you're the former.


But is Athena actually so... gifted ( ) that Widget would be able to see her face rather than the bottom of her chin?
...Who am I kidding? This is Athena we're talking about. Of course she's gifted.

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If the former were the case, then once again, any case involving Phoenix Wright as the defense attorney would be much more boring than something in game with Apollo Justice, since by this point Phoenix pretty much qualifies as the best attorney out there, and Apollo is as close to a "Joe Schmoe" as you'll get in Ace Attoreny land.

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I agree, with Nick having become an attorney over a decade ago and having taken down several legendary prosecutors, he isn't as "exciting" as when he was a greenhorn facing down the Undefeated Demon Prosecutor alone, and it's kind of weird seeing him act all flustered in court in DD when he has such a stellar track record. But Nick earned that; he started off as just a regular guy, and proved himself a genius (attorney) through the results of his cases.

Polly is also interesting in AJ. While he becomes an attorney early for some reason (22 instead of 24), his opponent is an even "greater" genius than Edgeworth (becoming a prosecutor at 17 instead of 20), and balances that with the life of a rock star. So, while Polly does seem to be a smart guy (young attorney, working at a prestigious law firm like Kristoph's), he's still nowhere near the "genius" level of his rival.

However, Athena barges in on the scene as a gifted super-genius from the get-go. The tension is then doubly reduced by the fact that her rival is nothing more than a regular guy (who knows psychology... which doesn't even really mean much, since all it lets him do is manipulate the judge and witnesses... which ever rival in the series already did).

But yeah, you're right. At this point in the series, Polly is the most "exciting" attorney to play as from a story perspective.



Also, I don't think Nick is quite as famous and well-known as people believe him to be. I mean, Nick is one of the last attorneys Shouko goes to for help in the DLC case. You'd think if he was so famous, people would be clamoring for him to defend them all the time.

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The ending kinda showed people clamouring to him for business didn't it?
There's probably still all the suspicion about him bringing in "the dark age of the law" perhaps some people are dubious of the results he achieved to clear his name.

Nick definitely gives off a certain stoic quality in this game. I remember twice in the fourth case I got a penalty and the dialogue didn't even show Phoenix sweating or panicking or gasping, he simply pondered on what he was missing.

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Well, there's only so famous an attorney can be. Phoenix never seems to have a vast amount of money, so he's probably more famous via word of mouth than actual advertising. Plus, as Pierre said, he's still been disbarred for the last seven years. Even if you prove your innocence, there's still a mark on your record from the simple fact that people have known him as a sham for the last seven years.

That said, I haven't played the DLC case, so I don't know what happens there. Hopefully it'll get brought over soon.

At any rate, I honestly don't measure prosecutors in terms of threateningness simply by how many accolades they have under their belt, or how early they graduated college. I think I would speak for the majority of the Ace Attorney community when I say that the two most "threatening" prosecutors that have been put forth in previous installments of the franchise are Godot and Edgeworth, and in terms of how many accolades they have under their belt, the two pale in comparison to the others that Phoenix and Apollo take on.

Godot is never made out to be anything more than a former defense attorney who's now a prosecutor. The game never makes him out to be any sort of super genius; it simply lets his personality and skill speak for itself. And he ends up being one of the toughest opponents Phoenix ever confronts.

Edgeworth, on the other hand, despite being a "genius," actually gets his badge at the oldest age of any of the main prosecutors mentioned in a game. And yet, compared to Franziska or Klavier, both teen "prodigies," he's arguably a far more threatening opponent. Why? His skill and personality as shown in the game.

I bring all this up to say that the game simply slapping the label of "genius" on Athena doesn't make playing as/with her any easier, and the game not slapping the label of "genius" on Simon Blackquill (although he would have to have gotten his prosecutor's badge at age 20 at the very least, considering he's a prosecutor when he's convicted of murder) doesn't make him less threatening. All of these are just various monickers to make the characters unique; the actual threat comes from how they act in court, not how the game dresses them up.

Another example of this is Winston Payne, believe it or not. While the games certainly never dress him up as a genius, they do mention at one point in Apollo Justice that he had a winning streak of seven years. By the simple standards of the accolades he has earned, this would make him a bigger "threat" than any prosecutor so far save for Manfred Von Karma. And yet, he's the Glass Joe of prosecutors. The "threat level" of a prosecutor or an attorney comes from how they act, not what backstory the game gives them.

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Wow, you really think that little of Blackquill? Sure, he doesn't get to show off his manipulation as much as you'd expect of his epitaph, but no one (except Fool Bright) dares to stand up against him on a frequent basis. Even Edgeworth knows when to keep his distance. Now, how would it feel to be at the receiving end of the blade? Apollo fainted once, and Blacky was just messing with him.


Nahp, no'ey. It was just Blackquill looking around for an attorney for his sister's sake, but pfft, heck no. Jinxie and her father still see Apollo more as wrestling material, and Trucy gets so many more clients than any of the others combined. Only Edgeworth actually acknowledges Wright's strengths and capabilities.

Plus, there's still the issue of the Dark Age of Law not being cleared up as cleanly as they hoped.

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Like I said, the discrepancy between the traits the game tells us the characters are supposed to have and the traits they actually have is a complaint I have.

Yes, Athena plays and acts just like any other AA protagonist, despite her multitude of accolades, and yes, Blackquill is one of the (if not the) toughest prosecutors in the franchise, despite not having any particularly amazing trait. That's one complaint I have.

Despite how it actually plays out, Athena vs Blackquill is still "super-genius vs regular guy," which is not particularly exciting when you're the super-genius. That is another, separate complaint I have.

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Doesn't that discrepancy just better show how much Athena's grown since 7 years ago? Blackquill mainly stayed the same during those 7 years, but Athena accelerated to so much. And even then, Blacky doesn't acknowledge her growth until she actually manages to beat him in court - even if he did sort of help her win. And then, she gets arrested and he's thrown into a restrained state of confusion.

This is another case of a character being named a genius, when she doesn't really have the skills (that matter) to prove she is one. In fact, we've been through this with Franziska, and to an extent, Klavier. Sure, they're prosecutors and Athena's on the other side. Nevertheless, they're all cases of named genius that aren't really shown as genius material. It's the ones who've reached their positions through their own efforts that can be awarded the proper title of "genius". And most of these such characters are characters we've met since the beginning of the series. (Oh, uh, maybe Udgey too. He has his moments...)

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Sure, and I agree with the complaint about the discrepancy (at least, on Athena's side). My point is that it seems somewhat hypocritical to claim BOTH that "the characters that are built up as geniuses aren't all that they seem" and "the fact that the game builds them up as geniuses makes it non-threatening."

It may not sound exciting in theory, but when you actually get to the real courtroom battle, it's plenty entertaining. Besides, you're underestimating experience too much. Let's not be forgetting that Athena is a total rookie, regardless of how much of a supposed prodigy she is, and Blackquill is a hardened prisoner along and at least a semi-experienced prosecutor, who studied some level of psychological manipulation under Metis, and had plenty of time to perfect in while in jail. The discrepancy in talent is nowhere near as large as you're making it out to be (and it probably tips in Blackquill's favor).

Let me illustrate my point with a comparison from an actual real life example. Take the NFL, for example, more specifically, an old matchup between the New England Patriots and the Indianapolis Colts. Look at the two quarterbacks. On one hand, you have Tom Brady, who was probably an average NFL prospect at best in college. No real special accolades. On the other hand, Peyton Manning, who was built up as the best quarterback in the draft, earned tons of accolades in college, and was essentially viewed as a "prodigy;" a quarterback genius, if you will.

It would be silly to say that Tom Brady shouldn't be as good, simply because he was an average quarterback that developed into a great one. It's the same thing here; Blackquill being a talented prosecutor isn't somehow a mark against him simply because he wasn't made out to be an uber genius by the game.

The same goes for Godot. The game never builds him up as any sort of prodigy. Would you mark him down as a character simply because he didn't achieve numerous amounts of accolades in college or something?

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Um... yeah. This is one of the things I'm complaining about, y'know? :P


Yeah, I agree it's weird to have both those complaints, but that doesn't change the fact I have them :P


Um... you realize that I'm complaining about the characters who are all "genius"es, right?

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Right, but you were also complaining about Blackquill being threatening despite not having any sort of special trait. In your own words...



My point in response is that Godot is likely an equally difficult opponent, and yet has no amazing trait either. Would you complain about that as well?

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Actually, I don't mind "regulars" ending up being really strong opponents, like Blackquill :P That line about Blackquill is more in contrast to Athena than about Blackquill himself.

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Fun tip: Listen to any version of Pursuit ~ Cornered or Pursuit theme as you read through this thread. It definitely adds to the experience.


Yeah, I could tell. :P
But if you're complaining about the amount of genius-in-name-only in this series, there's plenty more where this will come from, I guarantee it. It doesn't matter who is in charge of the writing; it will continue. Why? It's more than just tradition for such geniuses-in-name-only to fall flat on their bottoms at least once per game. It shows the power and potential of humility, and I know I always get a kick out of it, regardless of how many times I see it happen.

So, to specify; yes, I do get a kick out of knocking Athena down. It only goes to show just how much humility the defense goes through regularly, and she's always complaining about even the smallest of insults. That's why Apollo had the right idea to laugh at her when she does. Phoenix, by this point, has rounded back around and gained the utility of insults, since he can counter right back.

Aw, ain't that sweet that they even considered character development regarding the little bits like this?

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My complaints are mostly about Klavier and Athena. (My complaints about Klavier are basically the same as for Athena, except Athena took those problems, ramped them up to 11, and then hopped over to the other side of the courtroom.) While some people like to bring up Franzy to counter my arguments, since she became a prosecutor at the absurd age of 13, I think she's fine because (1) she was the first time they did the genius thing, (2) being the daughter of Manfred von Karma and (step-)sister of Miles Edgeworth gives a plausible explanation of her background, and (3) her motivations (in JFA) are really deep and interesting. The other genius I'm okay with is Yumihiko, and I think the reasons I don't have problems with him should be clear to anyone who has played GK2.

I sure hope they stop with the geniuses. DD already felt formulaic enough... I don't want it to continue in GS6. Edgey was supposed to have been a genius in AA, they did an avenging (albeit not very skilled) genius in JFA, Klavier was a nice genius for lulz, Athena was a genius on the player's side, and Yumihiko was... Yumihiko. I'm just not sure what other sort of permutation they can do. Really, "genius" is just a crutch used to make the rival of each game more intimidating before the player actually sees what they can do in court; it'd be nice if the writers stopped relying on it now, I guess.

Also, my problem isn't with someone being a "genius" and become a lawyer at a young age; it when they do that, and on top of that they're given a mountain of other positive traits.

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...I don't think you could possibly make a case that Athena's worse than Klavier in terms of "prodiginess." Someone taking advantage of hopping between countries to skip grades while being able to study psychology on the side is far fetched, sure. Someone being able to actively participate in a famous, full fledged rock band while simultaneously working as a prosecutor is well beyond that, though.

I'd have the same problem with Athena if she had come into the courtroom and completely outperformed Apollo and/or Phoenix. But she doesn't. She noticeably struggles, even when she isn't dealing with her traumatic memories of her early childhood. Heck, she would have lost to Gaspen Payne were it not for Phoenix's timely intervention.

In the end, I think you're making Athena out to be much more positively portrayed than she actually is. The game certainly dresses her up a bit, but they make sure to give her plenty of flaws as well. She's overly emotional, overly competitive, and has a tendency to go off on wild tangents to the point of suggesting that she and Phoenix should stay up all night presenting evidence to each other. She also seems to need a fair amount of affirmation in order to keep her self confidence up, as evidenced by:



(Additionally, that animation is probably one of my favorite out of DD)

I guess at the end of the day this all comes back to what you classify as a flaw or not, but I think Athena's got plenty of negative traits to balance out her positive ones.

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Dammit that animation always warms my heart and makes it harder to see flaws in her.

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Possibly not in "prodiginess," but in terms of general positive traits, I'd say Athena is worse. (Athena is athletic, kind, well-liked, has multiple unique objects, and magic powers, while Klavier is a prissy jerk.)

But...

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I'd say the comparison between the two wouldn't quite work as well. Klavier does prosecution when he feels like it and his rock stuff when he feels like it. Learning guitar for him could have been a hobby while he was learning.

Hell it's now confirmed he went to Themis Legal Academy, based on the Gavinners 'legal' theme to all their music who is to say he didn't FORM the band in Themis Legal? With other like minded individuals? I can just see means right now calling on previous Alumni to sing songs of law and give a good review to current students about Klavier's own experience there. A band hitting the big time can go a lot faster than learning a whole other university course.

Learning guitar can be done in your free time if you have enough passion, doing a full degree requires a good few years of study. Klavier could have mastered guitar, formed his band during university and hit it big in university and on the way out. Based on how Athena says she threw herself into her studies and basic scholarly requirements there's no way she could have mastered as much compared to Klavier.

Hence: Android.

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And people can be masters at playing guitar from childhood experience, and besides, Klavier could've easily had his music as a side-gig as he was studying at Themis.

Speaking of Klavier, I was really dissapointed they jinxed the disbandment of The Gavinners. Why couldn't Klavier just change or become a solo artist. It would make more sense that the Gavinners stayed done since Daryan got convicted, since it would just be a bad memory for Klavier or something. Seemed like the writers were ignorant there.

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I don't think Athena actually ever obtained a degree in psychology, just that she studied it part time, like the equivalent of a minor in college.

It'd be sort of like an economics major studying philosophy in college and trying to apply a behavioral aspect of decision making into economic thought (which does happen in the real world, for what it's worth).

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That would turn a lot of my problems around but I don't think there's any proof. At least not the way she talks about it, she talks about Psychology MORE than she does Law I find. Besides I doubt she'd be authorised to use Analytical Techniques in practice (specialised psychology is a post grad by the way so 5+ years) in court without the proper paperwork.

Saying Athena dabbled in Psychology while doing Law is akin to saying Phoenix is a master artiste because he dabbled in art for a while before going onto Law. She definitely did more than just a minor in psychology.

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...she wouldn't be allowed to use them in court?

This is the same courtroom where whips, thrown coffee mugs, pet hawks, and shurikens are viable methods of extracting the truth from witnesses. I seriously doubt that the Judge would somehow protest analytical psychology from an amateur considering he puts up no resistance whatsoever to far more extreme methods. Besides, at least Athena has some experience in studying people's emotions; Apollo is allowed to use tell spotting as a viable method of cross examination even though he has no experience aside from a quick tutorial from a 15 year old magician.

There certainly isn't any proof that she only did a minor, but then again, there's no proof she did a full blown psychology major either. Considering that she's only eighteen, unless you're seriously going to suggest the android theory (which presents a load of problems on its own), it's pretty clear which is the much more likely possibility.

Athena's obsession with psychology is pretty easy to explain as well. Considering she has some form of sensitive hearing that allows her to consistently hear people's emotions, she's constantly being reminded of how people are feeling all the time, and tends to bring that up more. I know this is a bizarre example, but say, if I were to study law, but have a special side ability that somehow lets me know every single medical condition a person has, I'll probably end up discussing medical a lot more than I do law.

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Um, guys, there is something called Legal psychology. The Wiki page explains it much better than I could. It's not too farfetched that she could study both psychology and law, but focus on getting a lawyer license rather than just being a standard legal consultant.

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