Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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Rule number one of lawyer stuff: if it's in the court record, it's gonna show up in the trial.
Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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Turnabout Dave wrote:
I agree that it's a bit extreme, but it works well to establish that the stakes are higher than they've ever been before and something is very wrong with Khura'in's legal system. The judge has been working in this system long enough to have almost completely forgotten about cross-examinations, and Rayfa was born with it in place. It makes sense that they would unquestioningly follow their customs, even if it means executing a 9-year-old. As for Payne, he's just a dick.
That's no excuse. Anyone with morals of any sort wouldn't have given the death penalty a second thought when it came to a 9 year old. It would have been Amoral if they'd tried to put Ahlbi in prison but trying to get him sentenced to death is completely inexcusable.
Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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Though that said the kid was under suspicion of severe sacrilege they still only stepped it up to a death penalty when Phoenix committed.
If anything I see it as a big gamble in a poker game. They raised the stakes in an attempt to make Nick fold. Just a shame they don't know Nick is a really good poker player.
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Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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In this case, there were countries executing minors up until 2010. (Though very few as young as Alhbi)
Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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Gerkuman wrote:
Kids used to have their hands cut off for stealing in some countries, a long time ago. It's just cultural differences.
In this case, there were countries executing minors up until 2010. (Though very few as young as Alhbi)
In this case, there were countries executing minors up until 2010. (Though very few as young as Alhbi)
Cultural differences or not, most people in 1st world countries would agree that it's not a culture that would work well with our own.
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Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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Kessler wrote:
Gerkuman wrote:
Kids used to have their hands cut off for stealing in some countries, a long time ago. It's just cultural differences.
In this case, there were countries executing minors up until 2010. (Though very few as young as Alhbi)
In this case, there were countries executing minors up until 2010. (Though very few as young as Alhbi)
Cultural differences or not, most people in 1st world countries would agree that it's not a culture that would work well with our own.
No but with Khura'in they don't need to worry about localising it to our tastes unlike everything else. They are trying to portray a vastly different world and negatively too based on the whole Revolution backdrop.
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Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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Blue Blood wrote:
The whole "we don't need defense lawyers" scenario ever being a thing seemed pretty far-fetched. It's one thing for a tyrannical monarchy to be power, but it's another for the rest of the country to follow-suit with that belief and proceed to attempt to sentence a 9 year-old to death. It wasn't just Ahlbi though, it was the claim of the prosecution in every case. The defense culpability act came into play 23 years ago, but what about before then? They had their diviniation séances and presumably not everyone was found guilty back then. Like, it just doesn't begin to add up.
What do you mean? 23 years ago defense attornies did what Phoenix did with the Seances and when that guilty law came in, they either got jailed and executed or stopped being a lawyer
Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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Blizdi wrote:
Blue Blood wrote:
The whole "we don't need defense lawyers" scenario ever being a thing seemed pretty far-fetched. It's one thing for a tyrannical monarchy to be power, but it's another for the rest of the country to follow-suit with that belief and proceed to attempt to sentence a 9 year-old to death. It wasn't just Ahlbi though, it was the claim of the prosecution in every case. The defense culpability act came into play 23 years ago, but what about before then? They had their diviniation séances and presumably not everyone was found guilty back then. Like, it just doesn't begin to add up.
What do you mean? 23 years ago defense attornies did what Phoenix did with the Seances and when that guilty law came in, they either got jailed and executed or stopped being a lawyer
And what I'm saying is that that change is very hard to swallow. In the past people did as Phoenix did and it was all hunky-dory. But now, both the prosecution and the court happily accept a lack of defense? It's just silly. 23 years ago they knew the Divination Séances were the "be all and end all", so they should hardly just be accepted as such now. I think I would have preferred it if Khurai'in had never had a typical court system rather than the weird nonsense about corruption we just had this now. If they had always relied solely upon the Séances in the past, maybe there'd be a route for something that was both interesting and a bit less, well, dumb.
tl;dr, the backstory of the courts in SoJ felt contrived and took itself far too seriously
Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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Religious fervour has achieved far worse in real life than what goes on in SOJ.
Its within the realms of plausibility.
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Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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luck wrote:
It's not like defense attorneys are actually illegal. The reason the Seances are accepted like they come is because opposing them would mean incurring in the DCA, and so all lawyers ended up either dead, in jail or quitting. It was a gradual thing, nor a sudden change.
No entire prosecution system should be happy to settle for absolute authority though. They charge someone, and that's it - game over. The judges in the court make they're decisions based on one side of the story and surely can't be happy with that. They don't have an ounce of doubt. And it's not just murders either. Lesser crimes, or cases with little to go on would still be treated the same way.
Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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When your evidence is literally the last views of the dead it'll be pretty compelling. Hell it'll probably be spot on most of the time. Just due to luck that so far as I've seen the killer hasn't been seen by the victim. So they've got actual insight to back up their faith.
Also hear in mind the prosecution in many countries is government controlled. In America its the State in the UK its the Crown but the point is in Khura'in the government is a religious one that fully believes in the philosophy and laws it created. Therefoe the prosecution system of course is going to go along with it since it is just another arm of the government rather than an objective independent entity.
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Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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When your evidence is literally the last views of the dead it'll be pretty compelling. Hell it'll probably be spot on most of the time. Just due to luck that so far as I've seen the killer hasn't been seen by the victim. So they've got actual insight to back up their faith.
Also hear in mind the prosecution in many countries is government controlled. In America its the State in the UK its the Crown but the point is in Khura'in the government is a religious one that fully believes in the philosophy and laws it created. Therefoe the prosecution system of course is going to go along with it since it is just another arm of the government rather than an objective independent entity.
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Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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How was a 9 year old supposed to kill a grown man? It's machi all over again.
But yeah you can litteraly see in the victim's last moments through all 5 senses in 4k/60fps. With something like that and being overly religious it's not that farfetch.
Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoi
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Blue Blood wrote:
It was just too much for me to swallow. If they had never had a proper defense and prosecution, instead having always relied solely of spiritual stuff, that would have been palatable. I can't accept that they just changed die to a crappy law introduced only 23 years ago and everyone was cool with that. The "revolution" came along far too late.
For all we know nothing much might have changed since the law inside the court. The prosecution might have still been connected to religion and damning people to hell. The defence might have been equally religious for all we know. The death penalty being applied to anyone might also have been around before the law. All the law did was really up the stakes unreasonably for defence attorneys. Such heavy attitudes and punishment might have been around beforehand as well.
Gonna point again to other real cultures that chop hands off for thievery. You might just need to accept that other cultures have different law systems.
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Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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Blue Blood wrote:
And what I'm saying is that that change is very hard to swallow. In the past people did as Phoenix did and it was all hunky-dory. But now, both the prosecution and the court happily accept a lack of defense? It's just silly. 23 years ago they knew the Divination Séances were the "be all and end all", so they should hardly just be accepted as such now. I think I would have preferred it if Khurai'in had never had a typical court system rather than the weird nonsense about corruption we just had this now. If they had always relied solely upon the Séances in the past, maybe there'd be a route for something that was both interesting and a bit less, well, dumb.
tl;dr, the backstory of the courts in SoJ felt contrived and took itself far too seriously
tl;dr, the backstory of the courts in SoJ felt contrived and took itself far too seriously
Twenty three years is a really long time for change to take place. This is basically a North Korea-level society, after all.
Spoiler: endgame spoilers
That being said, this is a series where they've cross-examined an orca and determined that all trials should end after three days no matter what. We should be no stranger to whacky courtroom shenanigans.
Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoi
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Pierre wrote:
Gonna point again to other real cultures that chop hands off for thievery. You might just need to accept that other cultures have different law systems.
I know very well how cultures vary and how times can change. The scenario in this game felt hugely contrived to me. That's all.
Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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luck wrote:
I don't think there's any legal system that issues apologies to people who are found innocent. I mean, when you get down to it, they were just doing their job. Gumshoe had a similar attitude in the trilogy and he did't go around apologizing to everybody. And death penalty was a very real possibility there, too.
Like okay but this is also a game, and if you want me to like this otherwise unlikable character, it might help to show her having a sense of remorse???
Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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scarlet-flowers wrote:
luck wrote:
I don't think there's any legal system that issues apologies to people who are found innocent. I mean, when you get down to it, they were just doing their job. Gumshoe had a similar attitude in the trilogy and he did't go around apologizing to everybody. And death penalty was a very real possibility there, too.
Like okay but this is also a game, and if you want me to like this otherwise unlikable character, it might help to show her having a sense of remorse???
Maybe they don't want you to like her straight away?
In Scotland we have a special verdict called "Not Proven". Long story short its know as the " You bastard" verdict because the jury lacks sufficient evidence to be convinced that the accused did it.
Say there's a circumstance like that where the accused obviously got away by the skin of their teeth. Would the Court system apologise to them? What would the victims family think of that? Seeing someone they are convinced murdered their relative being conceded too as if the Court was wrong to haul them in.
I can think of any circumstance the court would apologise to an accused short of then accidentally bringing charges to the wrong person or maybe to apologise for a wrongful verdict if new evidence comes to light years later.
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Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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scarlet-flowers wrote:
luck wrote:
I don't think there's any legal system that issues apologies to people who are found innocent. I mean, when you get down to it, they were just doing their job. Gumshoe had a similar attitude in the trilogy and he did't go around apologizing to everybody. And death penalty was a very real possibility there, too.
Like okay but this is also a game, and if you want me to like this otherwise unlikable character, it might help to show her having a sense of remorse???
Maybe they don't want you to like her straight away?
In Scotland we have a special verdict called "Not Proven". Long story short its know as the " You bastard" verdict because the jury lacks sufficient evidence to be convinced that the accused did it.
Say there's a circumstance like that where the accused obviously got away by the skin of their teeth. Would the Court system apologise to them? What would the victims family think of that? Seeing someone they are convinced murdered their relative being conceded too as if the Court was wrong to haul them in.
I can think of any circumstance the court would apologise to an accused short of then accidentally bringing charges to the wrong person or maybe to apologise for a wrongful verdict if new evidence comes to light years later.
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Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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Ropfa wrote:
Of course she doesn't think about the consequences of her actions. She's a princess and she's been spoiled and indoctrinated her entire life to believe that to say anything against Khur'ainism is blasphemy. The Khur'ainese people literally worship the ground she walks on. In her mind, she can do nothing wrong, because that is what she has been taught since birth.
Like, I totally get that. And I understand that's her character. What I DON'T like is the game trying to get me to sympathize with her otherwise. She reaps what she sows.
Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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scarlet-flowers wrote:
Ropfa wrote:
Of course she doesn't think about the consequences of her actions. She's a princess and she's been spoiled and indoctrinated her entire life to believe that to say anything against Khur'ainism is blasphemy. The Khur'ainese people literally worship the ground she walks on. In her mind, she can do nothing wrong, because that is what she has been taught since birth.
Like, I totally get that. And I understand that's her character. What I DON'T like is the game trying to get me to sympathize with her otherwise. She reaps what she sows.
There are games that make me feel sympathy for the characters such as JFA and T&T with Adrian and Iris respectively. HOWEVER, that's not the case with SoJ which portrays her as a brat.
Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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scarlet-flowers wrote:
Ropfa wrote:
Of course she doesn't think about the consequences of her actions. She's a princess and she's been spoiled and indoctrinated her entire life to believe that to say anything against Khur'ainism is blasphemy. The Khur'ainese people literally worship the ground she walks on. In her mind, she can do nothing wrong, because that is what she has been taught since birth.
Like, I totally get that. And I understand that's her character. What I DON'T like is the game trying to get me to sympathize with her otherwise. She reaps what she sows.
Hmm by the point of the game you are at she should have underwent considerable character development and understanding.
I'd argue she's not really "sown" anything. Everything in her life is a product of her sheltered upbringing and her parents rather intense teachings. It borders on Child Abuse how they treat her and ultimately she does reap what she technically sows.
That's why she changes, because she sees what she's been used to do.
Not to downplay the understanding of Children, anyone would struggle with the revelations she found.
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Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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Not once did I see him as a kid, and that they wanted the death penalty for him didn't strike me as more cruel than for any other defendant
Re: Can we please just talk about this? (6-1 Minor spoilers)
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As for Franziska, I actually didn't play AA2 but I did play AA3 so that's the only frame of reference I have for her, but I mean just because there was a precedent doesn't mean it's still a good way to write a character.
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