Repeatedly stated to us as a very important and difficult case, when looking at everything with more than two braincells, it's easy to realize that DL-6 is a very, very poorly planned out case on Capcom's side. The first time we hear about DL-6 is in Case 1-2, being part of the background reason of that case.

DL-6 was a case where the police, who are known to practically arrest the first person to sneeze on the scene, had trouble finding a suspect and called in the help of Misty Fey, a medium to channel the victim's spirit and reveal who the murderer is.
That's all fine and dandy, perhaps this case was a very complex one with barely any evidence, witnesses or similar. So perhaps the help of a spiritual medium was required to break the case. According to this description, Misty failed to channel the spirit.

DL-6 is then mentioned in 1-4 over and over and over again.
Now the description is that, aside from Misty actually succeeding in channeling the spirit and getting the murderer's name, the case took place in an elevator with three people in it and one of them was the victim. It's repeatedly stated that the one who was blamed by Gregory's ghost and tried for murder was the only one who could have killed him! Ignoring the fact that they seem to forget that a 9 year old can shoot a gun, it's not difficult...
But this just makes the case worse.

So here we practically have a closed room murder, with two suspects and one of them gets automatically not-suspected due to being the son and/or being only 9 years old at the time. So to find out that the only person who could've killed the victim could be the one who killed the victim, the police proved their awesome brain power by getting a spirit medium to tell us that the only person who could've killed the victim did, in fact, kill the victim.

And let's conveniently forget the stupid idea of blaming the succeding spirit medium for fucking this case up, although she channeled the spirit right and yet, due to the acquittal, gets blamed cause she failed. Totally her fault, I'm sure she forced her channeling onto the police to be used for the investigation. Genius!

Okay and ignoring that idiocy, that case should not have remained open.
When a case goes to court and a verdict has been passed, whatever the verdict may be, the case is closed. Yogi got acquitted due to mental instability at the time of the murder. A verdict was passed, the case is freaking closed. Even an acquittal counts as a verdict and, unless they had another suspect lined up, the case would've been closed then.

So, technically, the entire part of 1-4 that involved the closing of DL-6 should not have happened.... because the freaking case was closed already for 15 years! It should've gone into the evidence locker of 1-5 and disappeared out of there 13 years prior to the game starting.

I know people might think I'm just hating on this game, but you have to admit that this case is a shit-storm of terrible writing and planning out.

C-A

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Ah your inner ranting has come for the monthly vent eh Cat?

Well firstly the Court didn't really know what happened with Edgeworth how he got the gun, most they knew is the adults struggled and one ended up dead. The boy wouldn't have motive to shoot his father and probably isn't strong enough to overpower the guard and get the gun. The man had the gun and motive. It's easy to see how the prosecution in the case would nullify any chance of the kid being the culprit.

About blaming Misty Fey I actually believe it was probably more of a scapegoating attempt. You are right in that it is a ridiculous thing for the police but I think they knew that and felt embarassed about the whole thing, that they'd even try it and then that it would go wrong and go public that they screwed up so much. So I imagine the police hung the Fey's out to dry to get the attention off of them. I imagine the guy who suggested the spirit medium idea for the police was either demoted or fired. There also probably is a couple of people in AA universe who do think lowly of the police for it but it's just not brought up by the main characters.

Also we aren't sure of the exact law system in AA so I wouldn't go throwing about any big restrictions like that, nothing to say cases' can't be reopened for further investigation when new evidence occurs such as was uncovered by Phoenix and co. According to Yanni he was given some real problems for his insanity plea and the police had good reason to believe he had done it, it's understandable they would have kept their eye on him.

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When has motive ever been really required in every single case? They decided to try Maya for killing her older sister, despite having no motive. Same with Phoenix in the exact same case. Neither of them had any motive to kill Mia and yet they got tried for murder in court.



They could keep an eye on him all they wanted, but they still couldn't have tried him for the murder of Gregory again. And this isn't real-life law I'm putting into this game, it is actually mentioned in the AA-verse itself that somebody who got acquitted for a crime cannot be tried for that same crime again. Ergo, the case would still be closed.

And something I was just made aware of thanks to VGR.
What about fingerprints on the DL-6 gun? According to the file, there are no fingerprints. At least, none of them are noted. And there should be at least three sets of fingerprints on them - Yogi, Edgeworth and von Karma.

Does this mean Karma wiped the prints off? If so, why?
He decided to shoot Gregory on-impulse cause he had the opportunity. Taking his time to wipe the gun off, despite a bleeding and very painful shoulder injury, would require at least a semi-coherent state of mind which he wasn't in at the time - still all bummed out because of the warning the Chief Prosecutor gave him.

If he didn't, was Karma wearing gloves? Unlikely, the still shot of him getting hit in the shoulder shows he's not wearing gloves. The still where he's holding the gun makes it hard to tell - but if so, that means he must've planned at least something ahead of time.

And if he didn't, why are there still no fingerprints?
This would mean they had to think that Edgeworth wiped the prints off, but then why would he and how could he, being unconscious until he wakes up in the hospital, definitely after the murder weapon has been put into evidence.

That fingerprint thing really bothers me now.
And this has nothing to do with a month-vent, it's just that VGR brought me the recap for the last part of 1-4 and that is just full of exposition and flashbacks to the DL-6 case. The case already made no sense to me when I played the game the first time and now it's just getting worse.

C-A

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Perhaps motive isn't required in every case (though in the examples you cited the case was corrupt because of Redd) however it probably helps. An angry aggressive bailiff who fought with Gregory clearly has more motive to pull a gun than the child of Gregory at the time. Motive may not be decisive but it certainly adds to the case against.



Just to clarify are you talking about the double-jeapordy rule stated in Luke Atmey's trial yes?



I don't know what this VGR thing you keep mentioning is but it sounds irritating.
I would totally not put it past Von Karma to wipe off the fingerprints. There were no fingerprints on the gun when it was found. Karma was the last person to hold the gun. Erego, he either wiped it on the scene or manipulated the police force into clearing it for him. Von Karma is a calculated and cold individual, sure he may harbour an rage when he is pressured but even then he still controls it to an extent. When Phoenix brought him to his knees he didn't vault the bench and try to kill him with his cane he directed his aggression elsewhere. Above all Karma values perfection, he may have shot Edgeworth on a whim but he has enough experience with crime scenes and evidence to know to wipe down guns. Hell he's probably used the strategy himself to invalidate murder weapons knowing his reputation. It seems obvious to make the logical leap that Von Karma wiped it down rather than us needing to be led to that conclusion.

Also your argument about the still kinda falls apart. The still is of an imagined possibility at the time, not a photograph or an accurate recollection as there was no one to visibly witness it. The still doesn't even look like Von Karma and his distinctive cravat is missing. It's inaccuracy means it can hardly be used as evidence here. There's another still of him standing in the open door elevator but it's more difficult to tell whether he is wearing gloves or not in that case because that aren't so focused upon as the close up of the gunshot wound.

Flimsy Argument: It's established in canon predecessors of Von Karma are encouraged to dress in his fashion, presumably for some reason of Von Karma pride. Franziska wears gloves, therefore it is not unheard of for Von Karma's to casually or formally wear gloves.

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On the case of Yogi's guilt, it's closed. On the case of who killed Gregory Edgeworth... that's the unsolved part. Maybe they were out of suspects, but that doesn't mean anything if they don't know who killed Gregory Edgeworth. Until they prove who did, the case is still open.
You know, with everything I've seen you post, I'm beginning to think that you're only interested in this game for the Ho Yay. Please prove me wrong on that.

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Are you arguing whether Capcom put little effort into this case, or that the case itself is a bunch of hooey? There's a very obvious difference between the two.

I won't argue about the quality of the DL-6 case, as I have personal bias for it. Instead, I can argue about how much effort Capcom's writers put into it.

It's the only case that gets mentioned over and over again in almost every game following the first one, so yes, it's REALLY important to the overall storyline. For something that important, the writers would definitely put a lot of planning into making it work. And yes, aside from a few quick jumps in logic at times - though this is a natural consequence regardless in any of the games - they have. Despite the countless amount of retconning in later games, DL-6 has remained as a solid block of memory. The primary focus is not in the details of the logic that the characters followed during the investigations; it is on the impact that case left with the characters we're more familiar with - namely, the four characters on the Japanese boxart.

I notice you often view this game as what it is - a game. But the main difference between other video game genres and visual novels is that visual novels are still novels. It's more like reading a book, rather than playing a puzzle-mystery game. You don't need to always see it from a literary perspective, but it definitely helps to understand where the writers are going with a certain piece of plot. Besides, without considering the true depth of the stories in these cases, the games come to little else but pointing and clicking stuff and reading what characters say in response.

I can see you're passionate about this series as much as any of us is, and I don't doubt that you put a lot of thought behind this thread. But perhaps you ought to have put just a little more thought before jumping to conclusions on what makes a good thread topic.

Just a friendly reminder.

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When someone is acquitted, the case ISN't closed. That's not how it works. Yogi can't get tried again yes, but they can still go after anyone they want. That's not how the law works. It may become a cold case, but it isn't done.

Also, your issues with the case is by making logical assumptions, but that's all that it is. With the fingerprint issue, you are saying von Karma wouldn't wipe, but he could have. You are just assuming (logically, I may add) that he wasn't thinking straight, but I guess he was.

That's exactly what I mean. If there is such an important case constantly talked about, I get interested and want details - especially when I finally get to the point where I actually find out about the case. I look forward to a very thoughroughly thought out case, one that could even have me guessing through things of it.
Instead, we got this.... well my first post says how badly they did in describing it in case 1-2 and then 1-4, so there. It feels like a hurried explanation was given in 1-4, especially since Karma just suddenly shows up and has not been explained before and is barely ever mentioned afterwards - only once or twice in the next games and only to say how he's 'not there anymore'.
And in JFA and T&T, it's given again with a version of events from 1-2, saying that Misty failed at channeling the spirit. If they want to have that story be in public, fine, just don't have Phoenix say that. He knows that she succeeded in calling the spirit and all.
And only time it's otherwise mentioned is saying, "Edgeworth is scared of elevators because.... of that!" or similar.



I didn't say Karma wouldn't have wiped them. It's likely that he did, but I doubt that even a perfect-obsessed person like Karma could coldly kill someone in an unconscious state (Coward) and then remember to wipe the murder weapon. (Actually, how did Karma leave the courthouse afterwards? He had a bullet hole in his jacket and was probably bleeding. It's likely that he was too proud to slump slightly from pain, but still, somebody would've noticed...)

And this game has to do with law, which involves logical thinking, of course I'm gonna use logic on figuring the game (or visual novel) out. What's the point of logic (whether in games or real-life) if you don't use it?

C-A

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For how Karma escaped it's difficult to say. The bullet was embedded in his shoulder and Karma wears comparatively heavy clothes and I hear keeping an object embedded in prevents the blood from flowing out as quickly so his shirt would suffer most of the bleeding until he count escape. There would be a mark in his coat but perhaps he kept spare clothes in a locker at the court house in case of unforseen blemishments on his clothes (much like Edgeworth did with his cravat) or perhaps he simply left quietly and quickly.

However Karma isn't a perfect-obsessed person, he's THE perfect obsessed person. This man refused medical treatment for his wound to leave no trace of his crime on any records. He wouldn't overlook something that he actually deals with in his everyday career it's insulting to his intelligence and character to assume that he'd lapse now.

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DL-6 only gives background to case 1-2, so it makes sense to not bring too much into detail. The purpose of the trial hunting down DL-6 in 1-4 was to make it finish as quickly as possible, so naturally, a lot of details would be skipped. Both Karma and Wright were going for efficiency, and the conclusion to a 15-year-long case was resolved in a single day. That does make it sound ridiculous, but this is AA-verse we're talking about. I agree that DL-6 never needed to be brought up over again, as we're already done with it. That is also the same reason why MVK is never brought up again - his days of corrupt prosecuting are over, and with them, his legacy and life. (So it makes sense for him to have committed suicide while in prison. How it happened, who knows?)

But remember that the developers design the games so that people can play each of them without having to refer to previous games to understand the particular game they're playing. Those DL-6 flashback moments in JFA, T&T, and AAI are meant to be minor references (that just take up a bit too much space). Ironically, in GK2, regarding IS-7, the case that leads directly into DL-6, the latter is barely mentioned, if at all.

I laugh at how Edgeworth is traumatized by every elevator he meets. What began as a nightmare is now a running gag. In fact, now that he's Chief Prosecutor, maybe he could order that the elevators in the building undergo renovations... like moving them to the outside and change them to open-sighting elevators. And suddenly, the office gets more visitors than usual.


"Detective! I told you that these elevators are for staff-use only! Why are you letting tourists in!"
"Oh! Sorry, sir, I'll go fix it."
"And look forward to your next month's salary negotiations."
*whimper*


Just believe it. There's no other explanation for the missing fingerprints. But I always kept a little humor to myself about how Karma left the building.

Bailiff: Mr. Von Karma, sir! Your shoulder is looking a bit red. Did something-
Karma: It's paint. Now get out of my way.
Bailiff: Yes, sir.

Good thing Gumshoe never worked for him, or he'd be out of a job before he even began.

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Speaking of Karma's obsessessive perfectness, why didn't he try to remove the bullet himself? He was already walking on a cane - whether because of the wound, I kinda doubt it, why would he use it on the arm that has the bullet in it. I'm pretty sure he lost the use of that arm to a certain degree.

Wait, when is it ever mentioned that Karma committed suicide in prison?

C-A

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Nah don't think it was mentioned he committed suicide, I figure that's just what Rubia thinks would happen.

You can't keep on asking further questions and ignoring rebuttals.

Karma's obssession with perfection doesn't mean he would think to remove it himself. I'd say he got lucky, bear in mind the bullet had already passed through a metal elevator door it would have slowed and maybe not penetrated far enough to damage the nerves in his shoulder. If Karma had tried to remove it himself with absolutely no knowledge of medical science I'd say odds are he'd make more of a mess of himself rendering escape without questioning impossible or even putting his health at risk from blood loss. Karma wouldn't chance such a screw up since it was above all important he got away from the crime scene. Or alternatively perhaps after his escape he did try and remove it without much luck since he doesn't know much about medical procedures for such things and can't accurately see the wound (cause it's awkward to look at your shoulder very well for long) to treat it very well.

Besides (and I think Phoenix actually brought it up) if he had removed the bullet then it would instantly become evidence, it would exist in the world where someone could find it hence why he kept it locked up in his own personal temple.

Also where is it stated he used the cane before the gunshot wound?

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Ah true, I generally saw Karma's artwork with a cane and figured he might've gotten it/started used it because of the injury 15 years ago - since, in games or stories, if one big thing happens in a certain year, tons of other things happen in that year that form the people years later.... I dunno, though, I thought Karma's perfectionism would keep him from using a literal crutch like the cane, no matter his age or physical state.

Damn we focused on Karma instead of seeing how DL-6 is badly written...

C-A

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Well to his credit we don't even know if he is using the cane for cosmetic purposes or for his injury since how it affects him is never really covered in detail due to it literally being the last spoiler of the game. His injury would make sense but he could easily hid that behind adopting a cane to use for his regal image or for more sinister reasons (considering Franny's love for violence perhaps he didn't spare the rod in her upbringing). He doesn't use it in court after all (it wasn't till a few years after I played 1-4 I saw his artwork and realised he used a cane).

Though we focused on Karma because you were using his actions as an example of how badly the case was written. Then every time I tried to explain something you shortened the conversation and asked a different question to scrutinise the case.

Whatever this VGR is it sounds like it takes an extremely skeptical approach to most things and frankly that attitude can be tiring on the internet these days to me Seems cynicism is the flavour of the decade.

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I tend to jump from one thing to another because my mind is constantly working on things.

And I merely mentioned the fingerprints and Karma's actions because VGR mentioned them at the end of their recap. VGR is basically a spoofy-comedic way of recapping games. I think it's hilarious, ripping into the really dumb bits of games and showing just how dumb they are. Heck, they really hit the nail on that whole time travelling thing in Ocarina of Time and how it makes the whole Adult!Link section of the game obsolete.

As for Karma, okay, let's say he wiped the prints. Whatever, he probably did.

It still stands that this case is horribly written. Why did the police require a spirit medium in the first place to find the culprit, since the only two suspects were a kid - who as you mentioned, Pierre, was most likely not physically adept enough to wrestle a gun from a grown man - and said grown man who had the gun. Was it because of lack of evidence? Doubt it, considering other cases in this game have less evidence that leads to an arrest.

C-A

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Yes it does seem obvious but without fingerprints on the murder weapon they have actually no evidence to indicate anything other than it being Yanni's gun. Also considering how the other people were found unconscious from a lack of oxygen Hammond may have attempted the case it was possible for anyone to have used the gun if they came upon the unconscious bodies (as in fact did happen). Alternatively Hammond might have hit far closer to the truth but lacked evidence, arguing the gun came lose as the two men struggled and the boy tried to use it to save his father while they struggled.

Either way there was no decisive evidence and the Fey family was credible at the time hence they would turn to them for help.

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Just something I read up on VGR again and it involves the DL-6's status. They make it sound like the case should have, technically, been closed.

So basically, everyone in this universe agrees that Yogi was the actual murderer -- he just happened to be found not guilty because he went temporarily nuts. Given that, why is the case still open and why did everyone consider Misty Fey a fraud? No one thinks they went after the wrong guy, just that he wasn't responsible for his actions. Did anyone at Capcom proofread this script?

C-A

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Enough quotes. I want a hyperlink to this VGR recap. Now.

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Which part, the whole case's recap was broken down into 4 parts.
Eh, fuck it, here's a link to the Fourth Part, where I got the last quote from.

C-A

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