Over and over we hear how lawyers have manipulated testimonies, forged evidence and done other things to win cases. But we never actually see anything of it! Especially egregious when they mentioned it about Edgeworth and von Karma a lot. The whole reason Phoenix became a lawyer was to meet Edgeworth - and figure out why he became a prosecutor, after reading what a Demon he had become in court.

We hear about Edgeworth as the Demon Prosecutor, the prosecutor who stops at nothing to win a case! And what do we see of his awesome, immoral workings to win a case? A slightly manipulated Autopsy Report which could have been somewhat correct, depending on exactly where Mia got hit with the murder weapon.
And that's it. That's all the manipulation he ever does.

Then comes von Karma. Edgeworth's mentor, the one who really doesn't stop at anything to win a case. Edgeworth sort of 'redeems' himself by saying that he wouldn't go as far as von Karma does to win cases, that even Edgeworth has his limits. So we face von Karma, this prosecutor who hasn't lost a single case in 40 years, obviously with manipulation going on and we are expecting to see amazing work from him. Such great forging that we cannot put a single crack into his case, making it really amazing when we win!
And he does nothing.
Oh sure, he brings in a witness with a shitty testimony - that's practically a staple in AA, not a special von-Karma-Only thing, so it doesn't count - and another witness that, technically, shouldn't be allowed on the witness stand. And that's it. He doesn't forge any awesome evidence, he doesn't manipulate the testimony a lot. After all, Lotta Hart still reveals everything pretty easily.
Von Karma's courtroom-tactics are basically being a dick to the Judge - like no other prosecutor has done that before him - and Objecting to every word the defense says.

That's nothing special.
The only time we ever really see a lawyer use forged evidence is Phoenix in 4-4 and even there it doesn't count as he isn't the one who got it forged and also would never have used it, had he known it was forged. So despite hearing about all these great and fearsome prosecutors, they do nothing that really lives up to their reputation. Nothing that actually proves that they did what they supposedly did in other cases.

Why? Did Capcom think it would be too difficult a game if the opponents in court actually used forged evidence or manipulated a testimony to not be full of obvious lies? And what about other characters? Have you noticed that a character in the game was constantly referred to being this and that, but we never saw any proper proof?

C-A

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I actually haven't heard that much of it inside the game. Just folks talking about Karma, Edgeworth, Kristoph and I think Hammond (also Gregory is we go by that amazing time travelling musical) being the suspicious ones.

The other alternatives are Payne, Franziska, Godot, Mia, and Klavier.

So I think 4/9 isn't such bad statistics for the game to not be reflecting it. Besides I don't really hear much about evil prosecutors and attorneys IN GENERAL in the game. I think it's just that in real life lawyers and prosecutors are often portrayed as sleazy and villainous so we'd expect it more in the game but I don't think the game has actually pushed this belief in general before.

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Actually no, I remember - and re-reading a recap of it right now - how everybody always said that von Karma had an amazing track record and he is such a fearsome opponent in the courtroom and his cases are always so perfectly perfect and perfectly planned out, it's hard to win against him. Again, he's mentioned to forge and manipulate, but we see nothing of it.

C-A

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He used forged/bad evidence against Gregory didn't he?
Besides if he was so 'perfect' he'd want to make sure he was hardly ever caught and therefore would probably ensure his machinations were almost never detected elsewhere. Otherwise he wouldn't have his amazing record when he had a string of penalties against him.

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Exactly, it's another case of where we are simply told that he forged evidence. And if he's so perfect at conceiling the forged evidence, why not create evidence in the case we are fighting in against him instead of giving us this stupid reason with the fingerprints, "Edgeworth shot the guy with the pistol in his left hand, wiped the fingerprints off, put the gun down and proceeded to pick it up with his right hand" Why not make some evidence that looks and seems genuine, until we can prove that it is forged?

C-A

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Well we can hardly fault them for not showing us the Gregory case, being TOLD is enough.
I think the thing about the Edgeworth trial is that Von Karma wasn't perfect, perhaps his arrogance led him to think Edgeworth's fate was sealed or perhaps he was simply eager to see Edgeworth jailed as the result of his long long revenge plan.

I think your argument here is a more a case of your dissatisfaction with the case than the actual elements the writers put in.

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Actually, I can put this into any game. It doesn't have to be AA. If I get told something about a character, I want to see freaking evidence of it. Telling me that Kratos from Tales of Symphonia is badass? Proven by him slicing Kvar up a few times and doing other badass things. Getting told that Seymour from Final Fantasy X is actually quite a catch - despite being half-Guado - and being very goodlooking? Not... really, considering his outfit makes it look like he has a bear-belly and not everybody likes face-veins pulsating in your line of vision all the time.

C-A

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That's racist against Guado

Off-topic I never really got the impression people were arguing Seymore was good looking, more he was a good catch for other reasons...being the leader of the Guado...young...rich...a Maester...and an ambassador between human and Guado-kind who will undoubtably serve as a figure for the history books.

Yeah...he's quite a catch...just not all that pretty.


So here's a solution that may suit you:

They write up and sprite a whole other flashback case (including new models for Gregory and younger characters) just to physically show you Gregory proving Von Karma's evidence was forged.
Is that what would satisfy you? Since being TOLD by the game doesn't suffice?

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Considering how the game is all about 'Evidence is all that counts' I guess, yes. I want to actually see a lawyer use forged evidence that he wanted to have forged and use himself. Not just get told that he did it. I could go and say I climbed a mountain. Do I have proof? Not really. So, yes, proof is important rather than just being told.

And my problem regarding Karma is still that people constantly say he's a great prosecutor and I see nothing special about his behavior in court. He intimidates and interrupts the Judge and that's it. That's apparently his whole tactic in winning cases. The same thing that every other prosecutor in the game does - even Payne, lack of balls that he has, can get the Judge to say what he wants him to.

C-A

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I think Von Karma was the most forceful about bullying the judge and hiding evidence and whatnot.

It's true that we're told Edgey is the Demon Prosecutor, but don't forget that it was retconned so that he never actually (purposefully) used forged evidence.

As for why Von Karma didn't forge evidence in 1-4, I imagine it's because he got Yanni to do such a crazy murder scheme that framed Edgey so well, he had no reason to forge evidence.

And about the forged evidence from the case that caused DL-6...

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Yeah, stupid 1-5... retconning a ton of stuff....

Although, overall, 1-4 was also a pretty weird case. Why did Edgeworth agree to going onto that boat with Yogi-Hammond anyway? He admits, he doesn't really remember what Hammond looked like and Edgeworth is definitely not so careless that he easily decides to just go onto a boat into a giant, empty lake in the middle of the night with someone he hasn't seen for 15 years and technically doesn't know a thing about.

And again with the gun and fingerprints.
Why does the AA-verse think that the hand with which you shoot guns is your dominant one? It doesn't require dominance to shoot a gun, all you need is decent enough muscle strength. And as I mentioned above, the court actually bought Karma's idea that Edgeworth shot with the left hand, wiped the prints, put the gun on the floor and proceeded to pick it up with his right hand?
I don't think even Phoenix would be dumb enough to do that.

Plus the way the entire police keeps going on about "Why did Edgeworth kill this guy?" although it's been established several times by that point that Hammond had a connection to the uberly important DL-6 case... and that stupid stupid lake photo... majority of the cases have really dumb setups...

C-A

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Well... If Edgey had gone "I can't get on a boat with this guy, he might frame me for murder" I think that's not so much being careful as it is being paranoid.

The problem wasn't which hand was dominant. The problem is that the prints on the gun didn't come from the hand he was holding it in in the photo.

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You are really starting to piss me off.
The police never went on about "Why did Edgeworth kill this guy?". The only time Edgeworth's motive for killing Hammond was mentioned was also the time the connection was made. Here:

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I can clearly think of the "manipulation". How many times has there been a witness who has said, "The prosecutor told me not to say this!" It's happened, and there was the Manfred von Karma "stun gun/taser" incident, where he took all the evidence for DL-6.

Now that you mention it I think we can add Franziska to the 'dirty tricks' crew remembering she did some pretty drastic things to ensure Adrian kept hush.



My suggestion was crazily unreasonable....you just said you want something very unreasonable. If you can't trust the words a visual novel is telling you about historical events in the universe I'd be amazed you could cope with ANY kind of fiction if you are always doubting ever previously established thing in the history of a world that isn't shown via flashback.

Besides while it's hardly exact it's close, Kristoph forged evidence with the intent to use it then passed it onto Phoenix and you saw the rest. Phoenix probably would have gotten away with it too had Kristoph not tipped Klavier off but it's a lawyer literally presenting forged evidence.

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Everyone knows that saying instead of showing is lazy writing. Now I like the Ace Attorney games just fine, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't have been improved by showing more of the demon side of the demon prosecutors.

At least we have Karma tazing people. That's pretty evil.

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Yeah but that just tells us he's evil. Has nothing to do with him forging evidence, witness testimony or anything else that makes him a supposedly amazing prosecutor. He just OBJECTS to everything the defense says and bullies the Judge. That's nothing special. Practically every prosecutor did that.

C-A

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The scene where he was tazing you was so he could bloody STEAL evidence.....

Does nothing count in your eyes?

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That was DL-6 evidence.
At that point, DL-6 didn't literally have anything to do with the case going on. At least, not in a way that it was required for the old case's evidence to be presented. Remember, this was before Phoenix got Yogi's identity out, before he had to cross-examine a parrot. Yes it was after the stupid conversations about "Prove to me that DL-6 has anything to do with this case" although they had meetings pertaining to the victim having been the defense attorney of DL-6 just five minute earlier...!!

But that's the fault of the stupid police.

And I say it doesn't count cause it doesn't pertain to Karma forging evidence or witness testimony. He's a joke of a prosecutor, not the master of deceit that Edge's tongue-bathed us about.

C-A

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So stealing evidence doesn't make him anything like a Demon Prosecutor as say forging evidence does in your eyes?

Whether the evidence was for DL-6 or not doesn't matter, the act of stealing evidence alone is indicative of dirty tactics for a prosecutor, whether you consider it relevant for the case at hand? Doesn't matter, point is Karma has an illicit plan for that evidence and is using illegal evil methods to tamper with it.

It gets to the point where I'm not even sure if you are just arguing on such tiny differences between the moral ethics of stealing and forging evidence just to infuriate me or not.

Also I don't recall Edgeworth upselling him THAT much. Just the thing about him having not lost a case in 40 years but definitely not a 'tongue-bath' of praise.

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Depends on how much is "THAT much".

That's about all the build-up we got before von Karma appeared.

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Yeah it's substantial but for me a 'massive buildup' would be mentioning him multiple times at different time periods rather than just suddenly forcing him on us. That's possibly something that bothered me about 1-4, how this 'legend' was just dropped on you with no real forewarning or knowledge of him.

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The suddenly dropping on us I didn't mind that much. Just that they build him up so much and then he proves to be nothing special. Every prosecutor in the game bullies the Judge, so Karma doing it does not appear special. He does nothing that somehow shows how great of a prosecutor he was. The witness testimonies were as shit and worthless as ever. The evidence was terrible, the reason for the evidence was even worse.

Yes, Edgeworth was THAT dumb to shoot a guy while holding a gun in his left hand, wipe his prints and then proceed to grab the gun with his right hand to leave the fingerprints. That makes PERFECT sense, von Karma!

If they had made the testimonies HARD to figure out any mistakes or contradictions in it for 1-4.... but with that we'd have shortened the case by not having to deal with Miss Offensive Stereotype Who Saw And Heard Nothing. Heck, that actually would've been a good thing.
Anyhow, making the testimonies hard to take apart or even give us some real forged evidence, that would've made Karma look and act the part that he supposedly is. The game doesn't, making him about as much of a joke as any other prosecutor.

And I liked 1-4, it's my favorite case in the game, despite the giant plot holes.

C-A

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Hey, he's supposed to be a joke prosecutor. The real intention of setting him up so suddenly in this case alone is to show another side of prosecutors, especially after how the courtroom was turned on its head in the last case, where all of a sudden, Edgeworth stops being a prick and turns to the side of justice - to show that he's not all bad.

Karma is just that much more of a prick, and the game delivers... in a comedic way. "This trial will end in three minutes!" but it doesn't. I know I burst out laughing.

He really is the only attorney who cares about contempt of court. The only other time it was brought up was when Phoenix had a legitimate reason to plant it on Franziska in case 2-2, but even she scoffs it off.

Sometimes, you have to look at this game through a different set of eyes - that is, with humor. Some weird plot inconsistency thrown into the mix? It may be sloppy writing, but it could also be intentional. There's no actual boundary for this, so we go with what we interpret.

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