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Murder is not always the answer!!
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Here's the skeleton of all Gyakuten Saiban cases.
You have a bad guy. Bad guy murdered. In fact, there isn't one case where there WASN'T a murder!!
It would be really nice to deal with a case that wasn't a murder case, just for a refreshing change. Granted looking for evidence wouldn't be as interesting as with a murder, it would be different. And who's to say the case couldn't be linked to other cases in the game?
And its not as if other crime scenarios don't exist, we see it touched lightly after all.
Spoiler: GS4, 4-2
It would be great if we could prove something like mass embezzlement, drug peddling, or grand theft, or anything of the sort. Especially in the upcoming Gyakuten Kenji, it might change how we approach cases in the game too. Who knows.
Thoughts?
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Re: Murder is not always the answer!!
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If they ain't gonna murder they ain't worth trialing.
I mean there was always Ron
he was only guilty of theft.
And Vera who was a forger...in fact all the GS4 innocents are criminals in one way or another 
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Re: Murder is not always the answer!!
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Herr Blondie wrote:
All Criminals in GS are EXTTTTRREEEEEEMMMMME Criminals?
If they ain't gonna murder they ain't worth trialing.
I mean there was always Ron he was only guilty of theft.
And Vera who was a forger...in fact all the GS4 innocents are criminals in one way or another
If they ain't gonna murder they ain't worth trialing.
I mean there was always Ron
he was only guilty of theft. And Vera who was a forger...in fact all the GS4 innocents are criminals in one way or another Hmm...
didn't commit any crimes... Neither did 
, IIRC - being a gangster alone isn't illegal. 
did some smuggling, though. was a forger, yes. But... darn, no smiley available... 
's disciples were both innocent.So, all in all, only 2/5 GS4 innocents were known criminals (IIRC).
Back on topic: indeed, having murders all the time is a little annoying. That's why
's case is so interesting in the beginning - finally a case with living victims ( 
+ 
)!
Re: Murder is not always the answer!!
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00Davo wrote:
Herr Blondie wrote:
All Criminals in GS are EXTTTTRREEEEEEMMMMME Criminals?
If they ain't gonna murder they ain't worth trialing.
I mean there was always Ron he was only guilty of theft.
And Vera who was a forger...in fact all the GS4 innocents are criminals in one way or another
If they ain't gonna murder they ain't worth trialing.
I mean there was always Ron
he was only guilty of theft. And Vera who was a forger...in fact all the GS4 innocents are criminals in one way or another Hmm...
didn't commit any crimes... Neither did , IIRC - being a gangster alone isn't illegal. did some smuggling, though. was a forger, yes. But... darn, no smiley available... 's disciples were both innocent.So, all in all, only 2/5 GS4 innocents were known criminals (IIRC).
Back on topic: indeed, having murders all the time is a little annoying. That's why
's case is so interesting in the beginning - finally a case with living victims ( + )!Hold it!
Forged Evidence in the first case, a crime! To be a gangster you need to have done illegal things even then he was caught in possession of an illegal weapon. He participated in a gang shoot out, admittedly he sucked so much he never got a shot of but participanting in violent gang activities IS illegal. And not both of the Disciples were innocent seeing as Valant was the one who shot Magnifi, furthermore he even said near the end he would turn himself in for it so I see it as them all being guilty...in a way.
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Re: Murder is not always the answer!!
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: If you speak, I'll kill you.I'm pretty sure he would cooperate with her. And Stickler would still see Wocky threaten Meraktis, so the case could be a "threating" case, instead of murder.
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Re: Murder is not always the answer!!
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Re: Murder is not always the answer!!
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Fey Sage wrote:
In some cases, murder wasn't really needed, like in 4-2, Alita could simply threaten Meraktis with the gun, instead of killing, while she was in the noodle stand.
: If you speak, I'll kill you.
I'm pretty sure he would cooperate with her. And Stickler would still see Wocky threaten Meraktis, so the case could be a "threating" case, instead of murder.
: If you speak, I'll kill you.I'm pretty sure he would cooperate with her. And Stickler would still see Wocky threaten Meraktis, so the case could be a "threating" case, instead of murder.
He'd tried to kill her I think she'd be justified in being a little pissed
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Re: Murder is not always the answer!!
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Herr Blondie wrote:
Forged Evidence in the first case, a crime! To be a gangster you need to have done illegal things even then he was caught in possession of an illegal weapon. He participated in a gang shoot out, admittedly he sucked so much he never got a shot of but participanting in violent gang activities IS illegal. And not both of the Disciples were innocent seeing as Valant was the one who shot Magnifi, furthermore he even said near the end he would turn himself in for it so I see it as them all being guilty...in a way.
was entirely unaware of the evidence being forged. (The prosecution often intentionally presents forged evidence without being arrested or losing a badge or anything. Perhaps only forged evidence from the defense is considered a crime?) maybe did some illegal stuff. But he was technically a gangster's son, so he could be a gangster without doing illegal things if it was inherited. (I forgot about the shootout bit.... are you sure he wasn't just a bystander?)
was innocent. The killer was . Remember, turning yourself in for something doesn't mean you did it. ( 
/ )
Re: Murder is not always the answer!!
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Re: Murder is not always the answer!!
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Was not entirely unaware of evidence being forged, the bloody ace he had forged specially to provoke into snapping and slipping up revealing knowledge only the killer could know, he said he forged it called it "a dirty magicians trick" or something, it led to the whole "APOOOLLOO...PUUNCH!!!" which definately needs more "TAKE THAT!" for drama. most definately did do something criminal, it was an arranged Gang shoot out so there was conspiracy to commit crime and he barged in early and got shot down, he was not a bystander....knowing his attitude to gangsters he'd take it as an offence if you did assume he was just a bystander he'd say "Thats not OG yo?" or something.And Valant wasn't innocent, Zak showed up, shot the doll in the head and admittedly, after research I'll admit....Valant did not kill Magnifi...thats my bad...but me instincts ain't wrong, he's still guilty! Just not of murder.
Behold!
Straight from Court-records characters section under Valant Gramayres file! Valant left the room, but as he stood in the hall, he heard a gunshot, and rushed back inside. Magnifi had killed himself. Hurt and bitter, Valant decided to go through with his plan to frame Zak after all.
He framed Zak for the murder! Thats still a crime! Or has too much Phoenix Wright clouded our minds to ignore the "lesser" crimes?
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Re: Murder is not always the answer!!
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DramaticaXIV2 wrote:
What? Phoenix wasn't unaware of the card being forged.
I agree, besides Trucy was the one who made the forged card, it think Phoenix would be aware of that, besides it would be not the first time a father asked his daughter to make a forgery.
/ 
anyone?
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Re: Murder is not always the answer!!
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Herr Blondie wrote:
Was not entirely unaware of evidence being forged, the bloody ace he had forged specially to provoke into snapping and slipping up revealing knowledge only the killer could know, he said he forged it called it "a dirty magicians trick" or something, it led to the whole "APOOOLLOO...PUUNCH!!!" which definately needs more "TAKE THAT!" for drama. Um... that was... objectionable!
never actually presented the card as the actual fifth ace. It was like the yellow letter in 4-4; a reproduction, not a forgery.
Re: Murder is not always the answer!!
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00Davo wrote:
was innocent. The killer was . Remember, turning yourself in for something doesn't mean you did it. ( / )Well, he did tamper with the crime scene (like
did in 2-4). So, I guess that is what he did was criminal (although I sincerely hope that it turns out that the statute of limitations has already expired after 7 years, as I really want to see him in the future.).
Re: Murder is not always the answer!!
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00Davo wrote:
Herr Blondie wrote:
Was not entirely unaware of evidence being forged, the bloody ace he had forged specially to provoke into snapping and slipping up revealing knowledge only the killer could know, he said he forged it called it "a dirty magicians trick" or something, it led to the whole "APOOOLLOO...PUUNCH!!!" which definately needs more "TAKE THAT!" for drama. Um... that was... objectionable!
never actually presented the card as the actual fifth ace. It was like the yellow letter in 4-4; a reproduction, not a forgery.Like Kristoph said, that piece of evidence WAS illegal but....by that point the court was run under the Jurist system and the reproduction is enough to make Kristoph look guilty again it's illegal to make a forgery. Besides....if you'll remember the judge never even accepted that evidence in court he branded it illegal evidence. Please consult the court records information
"He (Apollo) tells the court that when Phoenix visited Kristoph's cell, he was wearing a spy camera in the pin on his hat. Though he wasn't able to get the letter itself, he recorded its presence among Kristoph's things, and even took a picture of its contents, and of Ema's solution indicating the presence of poison on its stamp. The letter Apollo has now is a reproduction of that letter.
Kristoph loses his temper, and insists to the Judge that such evidence is in no way admissible in a court of law. Klavier watches silently. But the Judge agrees - the evidence is not admissible. And since Apollo has no other evidence to present, he's about to pronounce a verdict."
Therefore
The evidence is officially illegal and not admissible in court, reproduction or no it's still illegal.
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Re: Murder is not always the answer!!
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Either way, it would be nice to have some different crimes as the focus once in a while.
Thank Masume for the icon.
Re: Murder is not always the answer!!
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Jisu wrote:
Citing CR and mentioning "research" makes it sound like you haven't actually played the game... Either way, it would be nice to have some different crimes as the focus once in a while.
Either way, it would be nice to have some different crimes as the focus once in a while.I have, but me memory is fuzzy, what ain't I allowed to check the court records to jog my memory?
I fight with evidence not conjecture tis all
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Re: Murder is not always the answer!!
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So i sdnt mind them all being murder cases but i will admit at start of 3-2 i was thinking ah robbery case instead of murder but i dnt think it wud have been as interesting if it was just robbery
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Re: Murder is not always the answer!!
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Re: Murder is not always the answer!!
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i mean, until it was a murder case
i see what you're saying, jaws, and i feel like there could be other really interesting crimes too. i just doubt that we'll get very many more non-murder cases.
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Also, ghosts. I miss them.
Re: Murder is not always the answer!!
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Gerkuman wrote:
Zak's guilty of escaping during a trial. (Yanni Yogi is the precedent, Karma admitted that it was an offence and that he would be punished for it) If Zak got caught, he'd be looking at a pretty long sentence.
Except I don't think they'd bother getting Yogi on escaping the courtroom, since he's been found to have murdered Hammond. Which in the AA universe means the death penalty.
As for cases other than murder, I'm fine with the idea (to be honest every case being a murder case is getting a bit monotonous - at least in my eyes, anyway).
3-2 was a great start (and was a break from the rest of the cases), but it still ended up with someone being murdered, which I thought was slightly disappointing.
I really want to see something like Apollo investigating an arson or something like that - that would possibly allow more of the science "mini-games" present in 4-2.
Re: Murder is not always the answer!!
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NinjaMonkey wrote:
Which in the AA universe means the death penalty.
I don't get where everyone gets this idea. Didn't Dahlia admit to "killing" Armando too?
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DramaticaXIV2 wrote:
I don't get where everyone gets this idea. Didn't Dahlia admit to "killing" Armando too?
there is lots of in-game evidence to support this ("von karma isn't here anymore", dahlia is executed for murdering doug, etc.). basically this is something that we have had lengthy discussions on in the past before cr became shipping thread after crack theory thread after shipping thread.
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Spoiler:
2-2 wasn't bad either. I'm not saying that the other cases were boring. It's just that...I find murder more interesting.
Re: Murder is not always the answer!!
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Anyway, regarding the whole point of this topic, it's not endemic to Ace Attorney alone. It's part of the whole Mystery genre of fiction.
Murder, and the investigation thereof, has been inherently the main staple of mystery fiction since its beginning. Sherlock Holmes, Hercule Poirot, Jane Marple, Lord Peter Whimsey, Nero Wolfe, and all the great detectives in literature primarily investigate murders. Law and Order stars homicide detectives, and even the offshoots Special Victims Unit and Criminal Intent most often have someone getting killed.
So why? What is it about murder that makes it ideal for storytelling? Perhaps it's that it lends itself so clearly to a formula. A person is killed. Someone is responsible. The detective (or Lawyer in our case, but really the AA lawyers are much more like detectives than typical attorneys) then has to figure out who did it and find a way to trap them or prove it somehow.
Or perhaps it's that murder is viewed as the single most reprehensible crime a person can commit? It adds a sense of danger, of excitement, of determination to see a killer brought to justice.
Finally, perhaps it's because murder is the most realistically interesting thing to be investigated in the mystery format. With a theft, for instance, the thief can be seen as noble perhaps, or the sense of urgency diminished as the danger isn't the same. With tackling a larger organization like a mob or a drug cartel, the format would undoubtedly have to change, incorporating undercover investigations, and extremely long and patient periods of gathering evidence. Although this happens occasionally in mystery novels (cf. In The Best Families by Rex Stout) I don't think it would fit as well with Ace Attorney's format.
In conclusion, murder is traditional. It's exciting, it's interesting, and really it never gets boring. I'm perfectly fine with Ace Attorney never dealing with any other sort of case.
Edit:
Gozu wrote:
basically this is something that we have had lengthy discussions on in the past before cr became shipping thread after crack theory thread after shipping thread.
<3 I miss these kinds of topics.
Re: Murder is not always the answer!!
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I also wouldn't mind a 3-4, but with a non-murder crime. (Not just as in a 1-trial case. As in a 1-trial case that directly ties to an uber-epic case)
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Quote:
Except I don't think they'd bother getting Yogi on escaping the courtroom, since he's been found to have murdered Hammond. Which in the AA universe means the death penalty.
They do that in RL though, partly because it sounds good and partly because it gives closure to the people affected by the crinme. Focussing on the first point, imagine this conversation:
"How was your day at work Honey?"
"Great, I helped take down a murderer today."
Now imagine it like THIS:
"How was your day at work Honey?"
"Great, I helped take down a jail-skipping murderer today!"
Much more awesome sounding. XD But the closure is more important :3
Re: Murder is not always the answer!!
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Gozu wrote:
DramaticaXIV2 wrote:
I don't get where everyone gets this idea. Didn't Dahlia admit to "killing" Armando too?
there is lots of in-game evidence to support this ("von karma isn't here anymore", dahlia is executed for murdering doug, etc.). basically this is something that we have had lengthy discussions on in the past before cr became shipping thread after crack theory thread after shipping thread.
I saw that Rusty, I don't use that many besides CR has such a brilliant collection of them gimme a break!
Anyway theres no solid proof that everyone gets the death sentence, after all Kristoph managed to get a very cushy jail cell rather than a death sentance, and Morgana was around quite a bit after her sentencing. I'm just arguing this cause I don't want Diego to be officially declared dead.
Anyway on topic, your completely right, murder is probably the most interesting case out there though the GS do let you confront other crimes while tackling murder, as you deal with forgery, smuggling and hm...umm it..was...theft! Yea still I think they have done many interesting takes on the same murder, from dealing with an actual guilty client to dealing with murder from beyond the grave which is about as abstract and obscure as you can get, in most courts the judge would probably just walk out refusing to accept such a bizarre case could occur...it'll be a real challenge for the writers to think up something even more abstract and new for GS5 though hopefully they'll include more of the percieve system.
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Re: Murder is not always the answer!!
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Personally I don't mind that they're all murders. It means having a clear victim, culprit, and in many cases a very strong or else very bizarre motive. I liked that 3-2 started out without a murder, but the I don't think the first half of it alone would have been enough for a full case: it was twist that came afterwards that really made me love the case. There's arson, but are there many other motives for it than either a simple love of destruction or using it to cover up a worse crime? (like...murder? :D).
I mean I guess you could do some kind of complicated Mission Impossible style industrial espionage theft case, and have to figure out a pretty bizarre theft, but you'd have to go kinda far out of your way to come up with a motive that's more interesting than just "money".
On the other hand, I would still like to see an assault case where the victim survives but is in a coma or just unconscious for the first half, and then wakes up the second day with testimony that changes everything...! That'd be neat.
Re: Murder is not always the answer!!
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Croik wrote:
There's arson, but are there many other motives for it than either a simple love of destruction or using it to cover up a worse crime? (like...murder? :D).
I had an idea about arson, and using it to cover up a crime or something... not really. I got the idea from Case Closed where a guy dumped the body in a giant fire, and it basically covered up all info about his death. The idea is basically that on day 1 you prove that the arson was started by person A instead of your client, they find a skeleton in the fire and assume the person was killed in the fire (since it would be hard to tell otherwise :P) and then you have to defend person A. Although that might be a little weird.
Quote:
On the other hand, I would still like to see an assault case where the victim survives but is in a coma or just unconscious for the first half, and then wakes up the second day with testimony that changes everything...! That'd be neat.
I was thinking the exact same thing! And the testimony has to be the person testifying that the defendant attacked him/her :)
I kind of just want another "impossible" case in general... like 1-4. (2 people are on a boat, one of them shoots the other. It's basically impossible for it to be anyone other than the defendant!) I was thinking something like a husband (supposedly) murders his wife b/c the wife screams, the neighbor calls the police, and the police barge in right when the husband stabs his wife in the foyer. This can easily be extrapolated to any crime (like catching a theft on a surveillance camera).
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Also Arson would be a lot better if it happened while Nick/Apollo was present. I mean coming back and finding that the place has been burnt down would be hell annoying but imagine walking in and discovering some awesome evidence on show, something that could blast the entire case open for you but then a fire starts and your left with no choice but to escape while the vital evidence is destroyed. Then the person you thinks done it is convicted of arson due to some remnant of the crime scene but mocks you and claims that doesn't prove he was the murderer!
Thinking up crimes is fun.
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That would be neat, and the poor victim :< I can't help but to feel kinda bad already.
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Re: Murder is not always the answer!!
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or 
as DAs in traffic court.
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THAT'S when you gotta be creative about it. Law & Order did it, Cold Case did it, why can't the Gyakuten series?
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