Apollo Justice really isn't getting any love from Capcom (or anything AA related) lately.

Look at this: http://www.gametrailers.com/player/43759.html

Not even a passing reference to AJ, or any of his buddies. 'So what?' you say. 'It's just some crazy musical -- Capcom has nothing to do with it.' But, undoubtedly, Capcom IS a major player in "approving" what the play can and cannot be about (this is common business sense).

Ok, fine. What about GK? Not a single AJ character there, either (Oh ok, we don't KNOW that, but, there probably won't be. I'm calling it). 'Big deal, it's a new series,' you say. Yes, a new series with OLD characters, and the only "new" ones aren't from AJ!

Even the recent GS concert only had some mild, obligatory respect for AA4. There's hardly any AA4 music there. Just look at who the headlining "Objection" silhouette for the Concert was (hint: it wasn't Apollo).

Why has virtually NOTHING about AA5 been said at all (obviously, there will be some throttling of info to not steal the thunder of GK, but, still, NOTHING)?

What does this all point to? I know all you AJ fanboys will say "nothing." Even a lot of you AA devotees who don't like to believe in change will say the same thing.

But, I think the writing is on the wall: Capcom has (or is very, very close to doing so) thrown Apollo Justice under the bus. AJ's gone, folks. My theory is that AA5's development is more or less stalled, because Capcom wants Phoenix back, and Takumi doesn't want anything to do with him anymore. So, what did they do instead... stall tactics. We get GK instead (with no AJ-era characters). Capcom's thinking is that hopefully eventually Takumi will come around, and, if not, if GK sells well (better than AA perhaps), then perhaps they don't need Takumi anymore anyway. My prognosis: Apollo Justice is now only a peripheral character, AT BEST.

I called it. You can disagree with me. But, there it stands.

>.<

An astoundingly daring conclusion drawn from a strange understanding of a single piece of evidence... In order for your conclusion to make sense, you first have to prove that a musical about the Phoenix Wright games must necessarily include Apollo Justice. This is not true. It is very reasonable for a Phoenix Wright musical not to include Apollo Justice; in fact, it would be out of place to include Apollo Justice. Then your whole set of conclusions fall apart.

A single piece of evidence? What part of the post did you read? I was making observations on four separate events. How is this singular?

Secondly, is not the musical a GS musical? That would make it, err... *not* a Phoenix Wright musical.

Oh, fine, if you want, we can talk about the other things you consider as evidence that AJ is no more.


It would be extremely unreasonable if GK contained AJ characters in the full sense. Remember that the game was set near T&T. AJ himself was like 15 years old, Klavier younger, and Trucy was 8. There's no good reason to include them except fan service. Plus, this is just speculation, as you yourself stated.


Considering that there's 3 sets of music for PW and 1 set for AJ, I'm not surprised. Plus, AJ came out pretty close to the concert.


It would be much stranger if it was Apollo, in fact, wouldn't you think?


There's no reason to give concrete info on a game they probably haven't even planned out. They're working on GK.

And it IS a Phoenix Wright musical, really... the English title is Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney ~Truth Resurrected~..

C'mon, there isn't enough of Apollo Justice to work with. I mean, Phoenix came out in 2001 actually... Apollo just last year.

Just give him time... We don't know enough about GS5 to even think he's under the bus.

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This, my friend, is a classic example of fallacy by affirming the conclusion. Remember, we are thinking from Capcom's perspective here (they are the ones to throw Apollo under the bus): Capcom can, in designing GK, do whatever it wants. If Capcom wanted to include AJ-era characters, it simply would have set the game to *not* be in the T&T time period! But, you assumed that the game must be set in the T&T-era, when in fact it is only done so because Capcom wanted to include non-AJ characters, i.e. Edgeworth, Gumshoe & co.

The only other possibility is that you're telling me Capcom wanted to make a game that was set in the T&T time period, then realized that they couldn't include AJ characters after the fact (however, this is a silly assertion, considering the designers know full well that the T&T era didn't have AJ characters!)



Ah! So this would then imply that there should roughly be 3 times as much music from AA1-3 than from AA4 in the concert. Looking back at the soundtrack just now, there was a little bit more GS4 than I remember (although one of the songs was sort of a "cheap" inclusion -- the "Guitar Serinade" song wasn't much of an arrangment, as it mostly focused on the vocals, and clearly was not something that required much effort).

There's 62 minutes and 55 seconds total on the 2008 GS4 concert soundtrack. I went through the songs, there are 3 GS4 songs (14:13 of GS4 music time). That means the remaining 9 songs take up 48:42. That's about 3.5x as much AA1-3 music as it is AA4 music (4 times the number of songs). If you don't include the lousy Lamirior song that means there's even less GS4 music -- obligatory is all. However, I will admit this argument is weaker considering that the proportions are roughly about what you'd expect (although favoring AA1-3 more).

However, keep in mind that this concert was NOT close to when AJ came out -- it was just this past summer (AJ came out nearly a year and half earlier in Japan, where the concert was).



Um, no? Apollo was the silhouette on GS4. If Capcom was adamant that Apollo is now their "star" so to speak, it really doesn't make sense to be using Phoenix anymore for ANYTHING, even if it is just a concert. The fact that they chose the Phoenix silhoutte is just another piece of evidence that Capcom still thinks Phoenix is the "main" character for AA. You really need to be thinking about this from a marketing perspective, which of course all such materials go through Capcom's marketing team.



Who's working on GK? Remember, Shu Takumi, the AA "mastermind" is NOT working on GK. What is he doing, twidling his thumbs? There's two possibilities: 1) either they ARE working on GS5, and have made significant progress, but haven't even said a single word about it (which, why not a single word? Usually developers give at least a few details about what's going to happen), or else 2) they are NOT working GS5, which means that Takumi is doing what? Nothing? If that's the case, why? The theory that I'm drawing in this case (which is speculation only, of course) is that Capcom is doing some "stall tactics" with Takumi. Capcom hopes that eventually Takumi will come around to Phoenix again, and in the meantime, they can do a "test" game that is GK to see if they really even need Takumi at all in the first place.



Unfortunately, I can't verify your cliam. However, I do know that Capcom was initially marketing this as "Gyakuten Saiban NOT (Japanese word for 'game' -- can't remember)". Or, "Ace Attorney NOT Game" -- there's no mention of "Phoenix" in there.

Besides, the argument doesn't work in your favor when considering it's in Japan, where they've always referred to the series as just 'Gyakuten Saiban.' If what you say is true, that would indicate that they are more behind Ryuuichi than ever, considering they've never marketed his name before (nor Odoroki's).

It certainly does not affirm the conclusion. It means that we can deduce the fact that GK contains no AJ characters from the fact that GK is to be set around T&T. So I am indeed arguing the other possibility. But we can explain why GK is set around T&T without deducing that Capcom is throwing AJ under the bus.

First let us suppose that Capcom wanted to make a Prosecutor game, one played from the other perspective. This is a reasonable consideration, because we've been playing Attorneys for so long it would be interesting to play it from another angle. The fact that it was called New Gyakuten Not Saiban indicates that "making a prosecutor game" was the first thought. Then it makes sense to choose Edgeworth, the most developed and widely loved prosecutor in the series, as the main character. When should the game be, then?

The fact that it was chosen to be T&T can be explained with a large variety of other excellent reasons that do not include "Capcom is throwing AJ under the bus". It was a familiar and yet sufficiently interesting time. Fans would love to know what Edgeworth has been doing in his little trips. Edgeworth had an excellent and likable personality at this time. New character development, throwing away old characters, creating whole new background stories... all of those would not be necessary if they set it in a familiar time. Mostly it's because any other time would be really difficult. Thus the fact that GK contains no AJ characters can be well explained, and this does not sufficiently show Capcom's attitude towards AJ.

Let's argue the silhouette thing from another perspective. Supposing that they put AJ's silhouette on there, it would certainly mean that the entire concert is mostly about Apollo Justice. But as you have shown, this is untrue. It's much more about Phoenix Wright than Apollo Justice. Then it makes sense to use PW's silhouette.

I'm afraid I know too little about game company strategies to argue why nothing is being said about GS5.

The fact that it is a Phoenix Wright musical, not an AJ one, is understandable from the fact that the Phoenix Wright story is complete, and the AJ one is not, and musicals contain storylines. So there is really nothing wrong about the musical focusing on PW.

I....strongly disagree with the idea that this musical centering on Phoenix is "a step back" as Croik said.

Why can't people realize that not all new material needs to exclusively center on Apollo or Edgeworth? The musical is explicitly a side story. Now that the games have moved on doesn't mean that no material of Phoenix should ever be made again.

...That and a advert musical would really stink.I wanna go to California!

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I think your main problem is you don't feel, AJ is being advertised enough.
Because to me it seems perfectly reasonable that most of the music focuses on PW's saga....it sounds better anyway in my opinion.

Just because AJ is the new poster boy it don't mean we can't pay tribute to the awesomeness that is PW's section.
Frankly considering how close they came out I'm surprised there's any AJ music in there.

Point is it's not the AJ musical it's an AA musical and Phoenix is the starring character in it so far, maybe one day AJ will be as popular as Nick but...I really don't see any problem that implies Capcom are totally ditching AJ.

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I definitely agree with this.
Not everything needs to exclusively center on the two.
Apollo is a new character, not much is known about him.
Phoenix has a huge amount of fan base and back story behind him. He has more to work with in making a musical.
Not to mention musicals don't just appear out of nowhere... this has probably been in the works for at least a few years, being written and planned. Apollo is a new character, who just appeared in 2008.
I would find it safe to assume that the musical has been in the works since at least 2005, back when Apollo didn't even exist.

To say that because this musical doesn't mention Apollo means that he's being "thrown under the bus" is a bit hasty and silly.
Why would they write a musical about such a new character when there's a character cemented in fandom for them to work with? I don't think there'd be much point cluttering the story (which is a side story, albeit an awesome one, but a side story nonetheless) with a character still in the process of growing in development and earning the love of the fans.
It comes down to what sells. A musical focusing on Phoenix has more draw than a musical focusing on Apollo at this current time... and considering Phoenix is Phoenix... it probably always will, but it doesn't mean that Apollo has been tossed aside.

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*facepalm @ TC*

No evidence at all there. They haven't mentioned anything about GS5 because they haven't got it planned. 3/4 GS games are Phoenix's, so GS generally means Phoenix Wright.

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The GK reference had some merit re. present marketing, but the musical has none on the policy re. Apollo because the musical is so far removed from the canon of the games, I think we can see it as a totally separate product. I mean, the plot of it can never fit into the 1-3 arc without serious retcons and adjustment and it's some kind of AU to the actual plot of game 1-3. I think it's meant to get new, not pre-existing fans into the series bandwagon by a different route, (though some older fans will also go and see it.)

I suppose the plot of the musical is 'inspired' by game 1 (and slightly 2 and 3?). There's more to work with than with Apollo, I'm not sure how they'd do an Apollo musical anyway. (Based on that synopsis 'Leona' seems to be kind of a creative combination of Larry, Edgeworth, Lana and Iris for Phoenix to save? Apollo hasn't really saved a friend or anything.)

However, I do wonder about the 'delays' with GS5. They seem to be biding their time stalling till after GK or something? (Annoying.)

Actually, it's more of Dahlia than Edgeworth/Iris.


And someone, quite clearly, needs to draw Apollo being thrown under a bus. Too funny. XD

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It's quite simple, I think. GK? Fanservice game. The orchestras? Fanservice. When you do fanservice, you want to focus on the most fan-popular characters. And characters from the Phoenix arc seem to be a lot more popular than Apollo and co.
And the musical has almost no ties to canon or even to Capcom, so who cares?

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Well in Apollo's defence? His characters have only had one game to establish themselves right now give them a little time.

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Phoenix has 3 times as many games as Apollo. It makes sense. >____>

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I REALLY doupt any of this is true. There's too many unanswered questions in AJ for there not to be another game starring Apollo. Fact of the matter is Apollo's era is just beginning. Give it time and I'm sure there will be a concert dedicated to him. As for GK, a similar thing sort of happened with Megaman. They started making a completely new series (Megaman X) but still made a couple of games in the original series. I've said it once and I'll say it again: Apollo's the main character now DEAL WITH IT!

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*claps for KHF* FINALLY someone who sees the obvious truth!

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KHF....Is that your voice in that video? 'Cause if so, you sound really cool :D


On topic, I think Apollo just needs another few games....Y'know, until people really like him ;)

Indeed it is.

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More like you've said it ten times in the video and then you're saying it again now. :P Just foolin' around.

The only thing that worries me about Apollo "Being Thrown Under the Bus" is the fact that the Gyakuten Snapshots went from the AJ cast back to the PW cast. *shrugs*

...of course now, they haven't made one of those for the past couple of months. >_<



I'm not going to be sure of that until they confirm the characters for GS5. ^_^;;

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Phoenix is more awesome than Apollo anyway.

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Are we talking about the musical or the concert here? Please don't pull quotes of mine in here out of context.

When I described the musical as a step back it wasn't just because it's Phoenix, but because it features Phoenix way back in 1-1. I don't believe that needs revisiting at all. If it was Phoenix between T&T and AJ that would be another story...

Anyway, in reference to the CONCERT, maybe the OP doesn't realize that Apollo and Klavier's voice actors were featured in commercials leading up to it? And that Apollo is still being featured in the newest official merchandise?

Capcom hasn't forgotten Apollo, it's just that GK is the clear priority of their marketing department right now.

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I think the reason that they chose to do the musical about Phoenix, rather than Apollo, is that he's the character most associated with the Ace Attorney franchise.

Exactly my point. It's fair to assume most people will be more familiar with the characters who have been around longer.
Another possibility for the concert occurs to me: maybe the orchestra or whoever arranged the songs simply didn't like the music from AJ as much. XD

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I agree with the fact that Apollo and Co. in the newest installment need more time to be know around the fandom. I know a few people that haven't finished the game yet. I think that they're focusing on the Phoenix Wright characters most because they're more well-known around the Ace Attorney fandom. Phoneix has been around for years, while Apollo hasn't even been around for one yet. So although I would like to see more for Apollo and his cast, Phoenix has had more "experience".

He's been around longer than a year.

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^^^

In Japan only.

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Yes but in the incident in question, the musical, it is in Japan only so thats what he's got qualms with so Apollo HAS been around for more than a year in the musical which he's bothered about.

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It's called: Common sense.

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I agree with Ultimat..er, I mean KHF. Why would Capcom replace protagonists so suddenly? Just because you may not LIKE Apollo, doesn't mean that he won't be the protagonist in the next game.

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There was that interview the producer gave earlier this year
ironlunch: Will the next game in the series feature a new defense attorney?
Matsukawa-San: I don't know about this either, but what I can be sure is that popular character are bound to show up again if there was the next game...

They didn't deny there might be a new main protagonist [which seemed pretty stupid] or commit to Apollo. So I guess nothing is set in concrete.

That sounds annoyingly like they are considering a new attorney either that or GS5 is so far off they ain't even thought about it yet. I suppose a new attorney for the tutorial trial might be nessecary (unless Polly wants to follow in Nick's footsteps and take a bout of amnesia) but sometimes the majority of the fanbase are just wrong we gotta hold onto Polly and give him another chance.

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Wow, this got more response than I thought it would.

While it's no longer feasible for me to respond to points in turn, let me just summarize my main thoughts after I've been reading the responses:

First off, let me clarify though that despite the title of the thread (an example of hyperbole), I really was just throwing stuff out there. I really do think though that Capcom is internally questioning Apollo Justice and his viability for the future of the franchise.

Most of you seem to have this fallacious line of thinking akin to affirming the conclusion, however. Stop rationalizing these questions based upon "conclusions" that shouldn't be drawn yet! I think a lot of you need to think outside the box a bit more or approach the question from a different angle, if you will ;)

Here's the thing: Most of you keep saying "we don't know anything about GS5 because Capcom is working on GK." But why are they doing this? If my memory serves me correctly (correct me if I'm wrong), AA4 was the highest selling AA game yet. That's astounding! Why would Capcom all of a sudden delay AA5 to go work on a new series with old characters in GK? It's not like they have to revamp the graphics engine to tell the next chapter of AJ's story. Why is Takumi not working on GK, and since he's not, what is he doing?

If Capcom thought AA4 was as much of a smash-hit as its sales indicated, then, there's no reason why AA5 shouldn't be the main priority with them as far as AA things go. But Capcom is keen on the facts: they know that although AA4 sold very well, it was not received well critically, particularly in Japan. I don't have the links to verify this now, but I know one of you can back me up on this. And Capcom knows the reasons that the majority of critics cited as problematic for AJ (disappointing story, disappointing treatment of old characters, lackluster new cast) -- these complaints were made very clear.

Capcom knows that AA is a very viable franchise. However, even though AA4 sold well, my belief is that Capcom has a sneaking suspicion that AA4 was not the right direction for the franchise, precisely because of the new characters and the new protagonist. Capcom has a theory that AA4 sold well simply on its past name recognition (indeed, as I recall, most of the sales for GS4 in Japan was in its opening week... a truth for most Japanese games, but, if I seem to recall correctly, the trend was even more stilted against GS4 then the norm... which would indicate that bad word of mouth killed continued sales). In short, because of the way GS4 was received, I believe that Capcom is cautiously continuing forward with the series, and that AJ's future as a main protagonist is thus in jeopardy.

Anyway, the above is all just my theory and is purely speculation; however the evidence I provided in my original post does I believe raise some interesting questions. I think my theory helps explain some of those questions nicely. But, we're all entitled to our opinions.

I'll admit there's a pretty high probability I'm completely wrong. Whatever. In that case, you can just forget about this. But, if I'm right -- come back and study my posts in this thread -- if indeed AJ does get thrown under the bus for AA5, I believe you'll find the reasons why enunciated right here.

Naturally I can't speak for the entirety of the Japanese gaming press, but I do know that Famitsu rated GS4 higher than any other game in the series. I don't think it's the professional critics that have a problem with it.

Regardless of whatever the reason is we're not seeing GS5 news, it's pretty clear why they decided to try GK: it's pure fanservice. When GS4 came out it sold so well because everyone wanted to know what had happened to Phoenix; putting Edgeworth as the lead of his own game pretty much guarantees that same level of sales. We don't know all that much about GK and it was still rated one of the most anticipated games of 2009 at TGS.

So whether they don't have any ideas yet for GS5, or have some and don't feel it's the right time to show them, or are trying to "win back the fans" or whatever theory you could come up with, the ultimate truth is that Edgeworth is going to make them money, and that is always a safe bet no matter what the rest of the series/dev team is up to.

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