also have a drawing of Phoenix, My favorite character in the whole series!! forgive me if you've seen this already:

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It's still awesome! ^_^

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*preens Phoenix*

So much awesome TuT

Well- I'm mostly an OC artist so I don't have alot of cool Phoenix art, but if people like Shounen-ai, then you might like this Miles x Phoenix pic-



My style isn't very graceful though T.T

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Aww, your style is plenty graceful, Arki!! ^_^

And I still love that picture. <3

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Heheh- thanks Crouton ^^ I worry sometimes... Alot of purist anime fans turn their nose up at my art saying it's too realistic or something. You know- Say, oh yeah that's... OH SQUEE! LOOK AT THAT PERSON'S CHIBI OF CLOUD!!'

So common. I see it all the time. The light in their eyes blink out as soon as they don't see their fav characters in the original artist's style, or an anime style.

I try not to be dispirited though, cause having a hybrid style DOES mean that I can vary the medium I use. Realism freaks may not like my comic art, but they appreciate that my fineart styled art has character in it, and the anime people buy some of my art cause of the characters. I do wonder though... ^^; I made a popular Phoenix cosplay though :D I'm surprised the amount of photo opps that I got! I think that my hair being a brick was a fascinating point too XD

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Sometimes I get sick of the "anime style." It's always interesting to see someone else's take on things, you know? ^_^ Because well... who wants to see the same thing over and over?

I do like your Phoenix cosplay. :D

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For great justice, I shall bring up this topic with a few more Phoenix-related pictures I have.



Also, I bring you a set of sprites I happened upon...

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Yay, more Phoenix pics!! 8D

Here's a couple more from me, courtesy of http://ww.pixiv.net.

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Yeah, with every second official art [okay, at least 3] having Phoenix dead drunk, I have trouble believing in the 'grape juice'...
Oh does anyone know why he's wearing the face mask thingy?

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Same here, icer. Looks like he likes the sauce. XD

Maybe he had a cold and decided that drinking would help it to go away? Since in Japan, whenever you're sick it's common courtesy to wear a face mask. Or some people wear them just to prevent getting sick.

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By the by, anyone check out the current Court Records poll lately? Seems the majority voted for Phoenix in GS5.

GS5 with Phoenix (44.5%)
GS5 with Apollo (28.6%)
New GS anime/movie/drama (10.7%)
GK2 with Franziska (4.9%)
GK2 with Edgeworth (4.5%)
GK2 with Klavier (3.3%) (good god no)
GS5 with someone else (2.0%)
A new GS spin off game (0.6%)
GK2 with someone else (0.5%)
New GS merchandise (0.4%)

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WOOT yeah!
I voted Phoenix of course..

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haha controversy
While the CR polls aren't really an accurate measurement of much at all, it does seem to belie that claim that Phoenix supporters are only a 'vocal minority'....

I'm not sure what they'd do with a Phoenix GS5 though, if it had continuity with GS4, they've kind of written themselves into a corner...

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Oh yeah, I remember that. Oi, some of those guys can get pretty big-headed at times. >>'



Hm, that's an interesting topic we can go into.

If Phoenix were to be the star of GS5, what kind of plot would he be involved in?

Personally I'd like to see how Phoenix handles taking on an apprenctice for real. With a badge back in hand he'd juggle solving cases and mentoring Apollo, then things take a turn for the interesting in the final case when Apollo accidently proves an innocent person guilty of a murder. Phoenix goes through a bit of his own dilemma, thinking it's his fault that this circumstance has come down. Phoenix takes time to reflect on his past interactions with Apollo in the plot of GS4, and goes about trying to right the wrongs and stop Apollo from going down the wrong path in life.

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I think it'd be them kicking the new (old) law scheme into buisness, and making more use of the fact that it's a majority vote rather than a race to fool the judge. I'd like to see them divert away from the ypical court scene we're use to, to incorporate some different ways of making use of the new way it works. Maybe you have an aproval meter or something so the score is more points based. I'd like to see him in a suit again. Maybe dressed like this-

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Yes

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Uhhhhh, did I say that? There are a lot of reasons why I don't think Phoenix should get his badge back: because of his character (in the first 3 games AND in AJ), because of the current direction of the story, and because of the implications it would have on the gameplay of future AA games. It's not just about "Phoenix cheated once and therefore should never practice again."

If you're going to "quote" me, the least you could do is take my remarks in context. Not that this is even the thread for this discussion: there are places on the GS5 board to discuss Phoenix's future as a lawyer.

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The 'just' part was probably a misquote. But for the general idea of his claim, you did make a post that read along those lines, I remember it well...

I don't know if this is the post, but it's the same kind of thing:


And the rest of that post doesn't mention the other reasons, even if, of course, it's not your only reason why he 'shouldn't be a lawyer'.
Also you implied that you saw the card trick as his own acknowledgment that he himself had given up forever on ever being a lawyer again, and this decision should be taken as permanent.

And um, this is the Phoenix fanclub so we're discussing Phoenix. But if there's a rule we're not allow to discuss future games or AJ in a character thread (even though people do it in other fanclubs all the time) then, well, you make the rules I guess...

should learn the sense not to argue with an admin.

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We already have separate threads dicussing different areas of Phoenix's character and future involvement. I just don't want to see the discussion in this thread to become redundant as compared to what's already in the GS4 and GS5 boards (or especially see it turn into a Phoenix vs Apollo debate). As long as we can focus on Phoenix himself I guess it's not a problem.

And for the record I don't have a problem with people challenging my opinions (I'm an admin, not FANDOM GOD) as long as they're not misrepresenting them for the sake of their position. So by all means, argue with me

I stand by the post you quoted. But I didn't mean to imply in it that I think Phoenix is "evil" or "omg corrupted" - he sacrificed his integrity in order to capture Kristoph. It worked. Do I think he's a horrible person that deserves scorn forever because of what he did? No, not at all. But he still has to face the consequences of that sacrifice, and for what it's worth I think it's in his character to do that.

There are a lot of other reasons why I think non-lawyer!Phoenix benefits the series as a whole from this point on, and I think I've mentioned a few throughout different threads on the subject, but if you want me to list them here (GREAT WALL OF TEXT) I'll happily do so.

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*Joins*
I bet I am in too much clubs but I bet no one is disturbed about I hope?
Well regarding the Phoenix again a Lawyer matter

The game AFTER GK?
If GK1 is good I´d be pleased to see GK2 WITH
Otherwise I´d prefere
He´s definetley someone we don´t know enough about!

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Honestly, I can't see Phoenix not becoming a lawyer strictly because of integrity or morals or anything like that. I think people are forgetting the whole reason he became a lawyer in the first place, to help innocent people with nowhere to turn to and take down the criminals who frame them, not to make a profit or become famous. I think it's within Phoenix's character to set aside something as trivial as morals, for the sake of defending the innocent. It's not like he'll be forging evidence all the time once he's a lawyer again. Sure maybe once in a blue moon he'll pull a Furio Tigre trick, but it's not like he was ever a total boy scout to begin with.

If you say Phoenix can't be a lawyer because of that fake card, you may as well admit Kristoph succeeded in permanently destroying Phoenix's life and everything he stood for, and really what kind of ending is that for the guy who saved so many people and put away so many criminals?

Though Croik, I am rather curious about what you want Phoenix doing now that his name is cleared. 4-4 was evidence enough for me that Phoenix won't be working that lowlife gig as poker/piano player, as he clearly hates it. He's still alive unlike Mia and an important figure to the new cast, especially Trucy, so he can't just conveniently disappear into oblivion when the writers don't want him around. Intrigue me.

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Since this topic seems to be a little active again, here's some nice pictures of Phoenix courtesy of http://www.pixiv.net.

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Oh boy- second pic there is HOT *u*

*snuggles into Phoenix's arms and feels warm :3 *

I wish I could read Japanese to surf these sites T.T

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Yeah, I love that second one myself. :3

You can actually use a Japanese translator to make an account. ^_^ It's just looking up the tags that's kind of tricky. I did it all with my limited Japanese knowledge, though. :3

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Nice pictures crouton, that third one makes him look like a private investigator.

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If Phoenix himself had thought his 'sacrificed integrity' to catch Kristoph also sacrificed his intentions to be a lawyer again, he just wouldn't have ever made that comment in the credits 'Maybe I'll take the Bar Exam.. again".

As for 'facing consequences' well, he did. He told Apollo, Apollo punched him, and that was that. If the justice system had caught on, it's Phoenix who would have suffered anyway - he's the one who would have been charged with murder. Besides, unlike Zak, he claimed the card as his when it was presented. Phoenix wasn't a lawyer, and there's nothing to say he believed in any 'client-lawyer relationship' from the client end which he was somehow breaching either. He was a terrible defendant for Mia in 3-1 as well, after all. And on his part, he had some pretty unhelpful clients (Iris and of course Zak spring to mind.) Phoenix's role in that trial was defendant, not lawyer, and there was no requirement to constrain himself to his lawyer ethics or assume he was permanently sacrificing his lawyer integrity.

He's obviously cast as a character who's playing with a system which he considered broken, forced in so they could have some kind of weight behind the 'jurist system' thing (I didn't think this was very effective, and doubt it would have converted me to the wonders of jurist systems had I not already had general acceptance of them due to their being a standard Western law concept)

In fact he plays with and manipulates the 'game' on a higher level/4th wall, which I suppose is the equivalent of Mia's spiritual dimension powers, except since we don't have some reasoning/concept to make this seem plausible, it's just weird and confusing. But if they do implement jurist systems, (that's left ambiguous too) there's even less reason to suspect he'd repeat that kind of behaviour or attitude, since things have changed so it's no longer such a broken system which he's lost respect for.

I suppose Phoenix favouring corrupting himself permanently in pursuit of Kristoph over ever being a lawyer again is a possible take on Hobo Phoenix in peoples' imagination, (not to mention the whole Phoenix/Kristoph thing) but there's not much to suggest it's the main interpretation in the writers' minds or the one they would pursue with his character in future games if they were made. Besides, it's of no use to Apollo to have a jaded hobo mentor for another game. It served its purpose in the story in supposedly trying to convince us the legal system needed reform, and has more than run its course in terms of plot usefulness.

Well, maybe that's why DarkWobbuffet raised it here. Possibly out of a desire to talk about Phoenix in future games without raising a pro-Apollo debate to say that certain desires for Phoenix's future are somehow wrong?

As for GS5, I think as time passes, and I doubt they've even done anything on it at all, the '3rd option' is becoming more plausible - they have a 3rd new protagonist and both Apollo and Phoenix only cameo as more minor characters. Maybe Apollo can be a 'mentor' or pseudo-mentor older legal partner? A different angle might allow them to retool his character... The fact that 'some past character/s from some past games will return' seems to be the only thing Matsukawa has confirmed in potential GS5. Now, I'm not saying I *like* this idea, but all options are possible, apparently...

Oh and they can timeskip, too. There's no reason for GS5 to be a year after GS4. Just because JFA was a year after with the same cast, doesn't mean they'll do the same with GS5.





I can't imagine why it would be damaging to Apollo or his plot to just let Phoenix be a lawyer, offscreen, in his own law firm, which isn't Justice and Co. Since Phoenix will appear to have some unspoken 'resolution' there's even less need to involve him or form plots around him. GS4 wasn't even about Apollo, it was about 'Phoenix Isn't a Lawyer!!!!!!'

I think you said once that this kind of positive resolution was too neat and unlikely (it doesn't happen in reality or whatever) but the mentor, unlike some other characters in the series, isn't supposed to be a tragic character. Mia triumphed over and resolved all the injustice from DL-6 and Morgan/Dahlia, despite Redd White killing her off. Being dead wasn't much of a barrier, she was effectively 'alive' every time she was channelled anyway. Phoenix's 'death' was the disbarring, and he can really come back to 'life' from it rather than just be channelled. (It's far more reasonable and mundane than Mia's supernatural feats of channelling.)

Since we have no idea what the writers will do with GS5, I don't think we can really make assertions to whether Phoenix not being a lawyer benefits the series from this point on, because we just have no idea of its direction. (Of course, if they just let him investigate crimes in GK2 or something, hobo or not, I wouldn't be complaining... and it evades the whole lawyer/disbarring issue, as did GK.)

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The second picture reminded me of
I know it´s know Phoenix

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"As trivial as morals!" I think you're right in that Phoenix became a lawyer to help people, and he doesn't care to follow every letter of the law. But to call morality "trivial" when it comes to a court of law... that seems a little much.



Well actually I think he would make one hell of a PI. We've been saying for years he does a better job of "detecting" than the series detectives, haven't we? Then he could play a muted version of the role he did in GS4: Convenient Information Relayer.



I interpreted that as just a joke. Let's us know he's been cleared without making any commitments.



What about his personal integrity? "Don't lie in court and forge evidence" isn't a law limited to lawyers. Sure witnesses have done worse in the series, but Phoenix never looked kindly on them either.



I see AJ as a transitionary game: they wanted Phoenix to pass the torch to Apollo, thus "Turnabout Inheiritor." But rather than have Phoenix as a legendary lawyer floating around in the background, they took him out of contention, so to speak. Assuming that they do not want Phoenix to go back to being a lawyer in GS5 (a large assumption, but this is a question of interpretation) it makes sense to me that they would insert another reason why he would choose to remain a non-lawyer, even though he's now legally capable of regaining his badge.

Therefore my take on Phoenix is that from the moment he decided he could trust Apollo to carry on his "work" he knew he would not return to being a lawyer himself, and opened himself up to breaking rules he would not have before. I won't say it's unrelated to me liking Phoenix/Kristoph but I don't think my shipping preference makes this interpretation invalid.



I think it raises too many questions. It's like giving a shadow of an entirely different game that's hiding in the corners, taunting you. If they're going to tease the player with "By the way, Phoenix is still practicing and having a grand old time, but you don't get to see it," they might as well just make GS5: Adventures of a HoboLawyer. Which they could very well do, but then Apollo would have been pointless. As someone who likes Apollo just as much as Phoenix, it unsettles me.

(It would also make me feel bad for Apollo if Phoenix tricked him, made it up to him by helping him create a practice, and then got his badge back and said "Good luck kid, I got what I wanted from you, now I'm outties~")

I guess if they absolutely HAD to give his badge back, I think the best solution would be for him to take civil cases instead of criminal defense cases. Then he's still a lawyer, still successful, but there's no crossover between him and Apollo, no question of them competing for clients. Because I'd feel bad for Ema too, if she were screwing up enough to sustain two lawyers that prefer to only defend innocent clients.

Uhhh and to close this wall of text I find it extremely unlikely that GS5 will star a new protagonist, because they would have to re-brand the series all over again. GS3, 4, 5, and Kenji all having a different protagonist would spread the franchise a little thin. Phoenix and Apollo are still viable, still selling merchandise--there's no reason to gamble on a new guy just yet.

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Yes. In GK2, not GS5.

Phoenix wouldn't make a comment like that, even as a 'joke' if he didn't have some consideration for the idea. 4-4: "I've got to stop torturing myself!" He can't even look at the finger-pointing figure without making some insane denial they're pointing at the post office. He's not going to be joking around over this kind of premise (he's genuinely happy here, not just sarcastic) if there's no chance it can happen. There's nothing to indicate Phoenix or the writers have 'decided' he 'can't' be a lawyer again - just the opposite, by raising the possibility in the credits as his last word.

Every witness and defendant (well, most of them anyway) lies. Phoenix lied all the time in 3-1. I suppose this meant he had established himself as unworthy of ever being a lawyer? Besides, Phoenix didn't give him the evidence directly. If Apollo, too, is dumb enough to take random 'evidence' from a strange girl he's never met, and then present it in court (Phoenix's real 'crime') then I suppose jaded Phoenix reasons Apollo should fend for himself. It wouldn't have ended as badly as the Zak thing, since Phoenix claims the card as his upon presentation (so would have taken responsibility) but it's lacking integrity from an 'Apollo's Mentor' perspective.

Now, this kind of Apollo abuse actually gives me the opposite impression . It doesn't mark Phoenix as someone 'fallen' from ever being a lawyer - but as someone who only played a terrible role as 'mentor' to Apollo. Phoenix was a spectacularly bad 'mentor', who exploited Apollo in all kinds of unethical ways. Having him hang around in any kind of non-lawyer 'mentor' capacity to Apollo, even in a reduced format, is a terrible idea as 'Apollo's Mentor' is the role Phoenix has proven himself as too corrupted and lacking integrity to ever hold again, not 'Lawyer.' And I can't see Phoenix ever playing a positive mentor role unless he's also a lawyer, there'd be too many regrets and 'living through Apollo' clouding his judgment. (We all know Mia was living on through Phoenix. - but she really was dead.)

Inheritor was alluding to the actual inheritance in 4-4 - Trucy inheriting the magic rights (and possibly to the 'return' of Thalassa?) Since there's such an obvious literal explanation for it, any kind of other symbolism is just speculation. What's Apollo inheriting, anyway? Phoenix lost his badge 7 years ago, there's been no 'passing the torch'. Apollo doesn't even do anything in 4-4, Phoenix does everything and Apollo spots about 2 contradictions total? I certainly didn't get any kind of impression the 'torch had been passed', I got the impression Phoenix did everything again and the jurists system trick (Phoenix again) was what really defeated Kristoph, nothing Apollo did at all. 'Passing the torch' seems to be more wishful thinking by Apollo fans of what 'should' have explicitly happened, not what was actually implied by the game.

And then of course, the credits comment doesn't imply a torch being passed, even if taken as a 'joke'. Apollo doesn't say anything implying it either, he just expresses a desire to one day know what law is, and change it if necessary, or something.


But he didn't trust Apollo. He was a terrible mentor, and didn't trust him to do much autonomously at all, or be privy to Phoenix's actual motivations. He didn't tell him about cases, he told him nothing about '7 years ago' until the day of the trial when he'd already forced Apollo (not requested, decreed) to act as defense attorney at the case. If he trusted him, he could have been more open with him, instead of just exploiting him and manipulating him to ensure he unwittingly enacted Phoenix's agenda, and setting him up with fake evidence, and taking over 4-1 with no warning, and even tricking him into joining the 'talent agency' in the first place. Phoenix is using Apollo purely to enact his own agenda where he can't through lack of badge, not to 'pass the torch'. The only other reason he 'chose' Apollo (particularly after 4-1) is that he happened to see the bracelet, and sense the familial connection to Trucy. He's just as cryptic and non-open to Apollo after 4-1 as before, so Apollo has not won his 'trust' as a 'successor', more as somebody he can exploit. Phoenix's actions are probably 90% about enacting Phoenix's own selfish agendas over '7 years ago trial' and 10% about investigating Trucy's family for Trucy (not Apollo).

I never said it did, it just ties in with the whole concept- which is a possible interpretation, but certainly not the only one or the one they will necessarily follow in future games.

Yeah, that was the fear of some of the other Apollo fans too, but I think it's unrealistic. The main argument seems to be that 'if Phoenix is mentioned as a lawyer in GS5 he'll rise again and replace Apollo' but if they've just made an entire GS5 about Apollo with no Phoenix except on tiny ref saying he's a lawyer, hasn't it just proven the fear incorrect? Are people scared it will disrupt GS6 or something? Aren't we getting ahead of ourselves?

Phoenix not being a lawyer is 'the shadow in the corner of the room, taunting you and raising too many questions and demanding a different game', particularly if it's after his name is cleared. We've had 3 games of Phoenix as a lawyer, and even with the required mental adjustments after GS4, I'm sure Phoenix after a return to lawyer can be quite happily fulfilled (or ignored, if you prefer) in people's imagination. Non-lawyer Phoenix is precisely the thing which is difficult to resolve in people's imagination, especially since it's the result of such gross injustice in the first place. (If Phoenix had just said he definitely would be a lawyer at the end of GS4, probably less people would be calling for his return in GS5, not more.)

That's what Mia did. And she, unlike Phoenix, was a good mentor. And doing that would be entirely consistent with everything Hobo Mentor did in GS4 anyway...

Then make Justice and Co. in the next district. It can share the same court. Maybe Ema gets a promotion (oversees wider range) or moves district. Phoenix became a lawyer to save clients' lives, not for a love of the law.

How about a female protagonist? I'm thinking more in the scenario GS5 is years and years away

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Wooooh huge wall of text o.o
I think they've destroyed everything about Phoenix what they've build with GS1-3 in GS 4.
I like Apollo a bit and the other characters but I don't want to get Offtopic...
As a last statement about that: If they simplie replaced Phoenix with a Randomguy famous lawyer... There were nothing to be bothered about that at all.... the best solution would be not to make any ace attourney game AFTER T&T (exception GK :egdy: ) they could make many games about other peoples past of AA (Godot,Mia,Franny).
(If you can't get used to my opinion... heres a cookie ! I can understand that you like Apollo but they could do better solutions to show up Apollo then to disbarr Phoenix!)

btt:
Why I am a Phoenix Fan (GS1-3):
-He's a passionated man who will do everything for his closest ones.
-He fight till the bitter end.
-The pairing
-His spiky Hair :D
-His sarcastic thoughts

I think he's simply awesome!
Yes, you can count me as a Phoenix fan because I get used to him throug GS1-3 and I really like him. :D
(I'm not Gay -_-)

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Awesome dude, welcome to the fantopic!

Well at the moment, I thought I'd start work on a new fan fiction series starring Phoenix. It takes the Apollo Justice story, and tells it in an AU version where Phoenix is the lawyer behind the stand. I got basic summaries below. Beware, as they contain AJ spoilers.



I was wondering if you guys have any suggestions for this idea.

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I will read it if you really do this. sounds kinda interessting

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Dis could be interesting . . .

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It sounds really good so far!! ^_^

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A challenge to all my fellow Phoenix fans!!

Can you guys name all the nicknames that Phoenix has been called? And by who?

example: Nick-Maya

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