Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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FirexxxSaber wrote:
In 1-5 I thought he didn't take cases because Not because he didn't usually take cases...
Spoiler:
I think it was in part because of Maya, but the fact that he let that affect him so much that he stopped taking cases doesn't speak well of his work ethic regardless (especially since she was only 2 hours away by train... it's not that far...).
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Croik wrote:
Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that Phoenix has a very haphazard way of choosing which cases he'll take, and even then takes them rarely. A really good lawyer would be able to take a lot of cases, innocent or guilty, and win most if not all of them - which is probably what Grossberg and Kristoph were doing to get as popular and as rich as they were.
But Phoenix's goal wasn't to be a good technical "lawyer", he was doing it to defend the innocent. We don't know how he would do defending the guilty because he refuses to if he can help it. However, from the little that we see of him in court, it's obvious that he is successful because of his faith in his client, his creative mind, and his perseverence to not let it end until the truth is found (or stalling by bluffing, whatever you want to call it). You can't say that he is lucky that his clients are innocent because even so, in all of his trials he finds himself in a tight spot because most of the evidence goes against his case.
Of course, he isn't as experienced as Maya or Grossberg, but you can't doubt that he has potential. I think that the only thing going against him is that he is just much too lazy, and not dedicated enough to lawyering.
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Salutation Here wrote:
Regarding what Phoenix would do with a guilty client, in the AA world, there are trials done to evaluate a person's guilt, and should said person be found guilty, they move onto another trial, which is presumably where their lawyer will try to get them a lighter sentence. It's possible that Phoenix only does the first type of trial, and leaves arguing for a reduced sentence to other lawyers.
I'm not sure that's true. In Phoenix's cases he fights to find his client innocent, and after that, the person who he ended up exposing (Redd or Gant or what have you) then ends up having their own trial which the player doesn't see. If Phoenix's client was found guilty (like Engarde) that would be it. The only reason you'd have a trial for someone who was already convicted is if there was some kind of appeal.
Unless you're talking about a preliminary hearing, which is only alluded to once in the series, but that's not to determine guilt or innocence but whether or not there is enough evidence to have a real trial at all.
Quote:
But Phoenix's goal wasn't to be a good technical "lawyer", he was doing it to defend the innocent. We don't know how he would do defending the guilty because he refuses to if he can help it.
But that's just my point - a "good lawyer" shouldn't be refusing clients based on his perception of their guilt in the first place. He's certainly good at solving problems and getting the truth out of people, and good at being steadfast and loyal and determined, but those qualities would be just as well suited to detectiving (yay new word). Which is why I see him as a great character and a greater defender and justice and such, but even by 3-5 I wouldn't say he's a great "lawyer".
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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And while he gets all but one of his clients off the hook, IRL he wouldn't be that good of a lawyer. He always gets by with luck and not to mention he is more concerned with "finding the truth" instead of "defending the client."
Learning what happened with the circumstances in a case is nice and all but if, sy, Matt's trial was real, his attorney would insist that Adrian hired deKiller in order to get Matt off the hook, regardless of Maya.
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Croik wrote:
Salutation Here wrote:
Regarding what Phoenix would do with a guilty client, in the AA world, there are trials done to evaluate a person's guilt, and should said person be found guilty, they move onto another trial, which is presumably where their lawyer will try to get them a lighter sentence. It's possible that Phoenix only does the first type of trial, and leaves arguing for a reduced sentence to other lawyers.
I'm not sure that's true. In Phoenix's cases he fights to find his client innocent, and after that, the person who he ended up exposing (Redd or Gant or what have you) then ends up having their own trial which the player doesn't see. If Phoenix's client was found guilty (like Engarde) that would be it. The only reason you'd have a trial for someone who was already convicted is if there was some kind of appeal.
Whenever you get a game over, the Judge says that he's referring the case to higher court, so I was guessing that that's to work out the sentencing.
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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FirexxxSaber wrote:
Is Phoenix Wright actually a good lawyer? I noticed in like every case, someone has to lead him through it.
Spoiler: not sure if this is spoiler or not...
I totaly agree with this. I'm playing through JFA now, and I've ended up sighing all the time at a sudden "HOLD IT!" from 'someone else'.
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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But I still think he is a good lawyer since he wins every off-screen case he has. At least I think so.
It's basically a writer's choice.
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Noble Savant wrote:
NinjaMonkey wrote:
Personally, I don't think that he's that good a lawyer, given that he's only had 13 cases in 3 years (counting the flashback trial in 4-4). I'd have thought that he'd have had more cases if he was a good lawyer.
I always assumed he had taken more cases in between those, they simply weren't important enough for us to play out, and weren't against the better prosecutors. He did stop taking cases between 1-4 and 1-5, but 2-1 gave a strong impression that he was becoming well known and did take other cases.
For that matter, two one gave us a glimpse of what phoenix can manage when he has more then a day to prepare. Then he got amnesia. Shame really.
Actually, we know that he ONLY took five cases in Game 1, as Edgeworth said in 1-4 "A lawyer with only three trials under his belt?", clearly implying that Phoenix had only had those three cases that we played out beforehand.
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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though, even if he's not 'good'. : P
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Spoiler: 4-4
I like to think he is a very good lawyer. But he still seems to be a little helpless even after 3-5. So, I think he has the skills to be a good lawyer with his odd style of defending, but he's still a rookie. It's like, how would you like to be given a task and noone taught you how to do it?
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Spoiler: 2-4
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Saloma wrote:
Spoiler: 2-4
I wouldn't say "easily." He had Edgeworth's help the entire time.
Quote:
So, I think he has the skills to be a good lawyer with his odd style of defending, but he's still a rookie. It's like, how would you like to be given a task and noone taught you how to do it?
Phoenix did go to law school, and had Mia as a mentor, so it's not like no one taught him how to be a lawyer. Maybe he just didn't retain any of his education...?
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Croik wrote:
Quote:
So, I think he has the skills to be a good lawyer with his odd style of defending, but he's still a rookie. It's like, how would you like to be given a task and noone taught you how to do it?
Phoenix did go to law school, and had Mia as a mentor, so it's not like no one taught him how to be a lawyer. Maybe he just didn't retain any of his education...?
He probably didn't considering he said that Mia's law books gave him a headache.
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Croik wrote:
Phoenix did go to law school, and had Mia as a mentor, so it's not like no one taught him how to be a lawyer. Maybe he just didn't retain any of his education...?
We're talking about the guy who didn't know what Evidence Law was. Isn't that one of the most important things? I think everyone Phoenix learns: in one ear, out the other. I mean, how many fucking times do I have to hear "Just think outside of the box!"
geo wrote:
I think that Phoenix is a pretty good lawyer. Although at times he bluffs his way through a lot and relies on Mia to save him but in 4-4 you see him doing really well on his own without an assistant.
Spoiler: 4-4
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geo wrote:
I think that Phoenix is a pretty good lawyer. Although at times he bluffs his way through a lot and relies on Mia to save him but in 4-4 you see him doing really well on his own without an assistant.
Spoiler: 4-4
But that had nothing to do with his skill or talent as a lawyer, All I was trying to say was that he did do pretty well up to that point.
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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geo wrote:
I think that Phoenix is a pretty good lawyer. Although at times he bluffs his way through a lot and relies on Mia to save him but in 4-4 you see him doing really well on his own without an assistant.
Spoiler:
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Croik wrote:
geo wrote:
I think that Phoenix is a pretty good lawyer. Although at times he bluffs his way through a lot and relies on Mia to save him but in 4-4 you see him doing really well on his own without an assistant.
Spoiler:
That's what I mean by my comment earlier.
Haha, I could just imagine Maya saying that. It would've been perfect.
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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If not, no, he was pretty awful without Mia. GS4 just makes this even more apparent.
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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FirexxxSaber wrote:
Is Phoenix Wright actually a good lawyer? I noticed in like every case, someone has to lead him through it.
Also...
And so many times, Phoenix has just bluffed his way through cases until the very very end.
So, is he an actual good lawyer? I haven't played AJ yet, so I don't know how he acts in that...
Discuss.
Spoiler: not sure if this is spoiler or not...
Also...
Spoiler: 1-5
And so many times, Phoenix has just bluffed his way through cases until the very very end.
So, is he an actual good lawyer? I haven't played AJ yet, so I don't know how he acts in that...
Discuss.
but phoenix need its 3 years that he a counsellor then mia had not yet finished died. he therefore not yet enough experience gained to be able do everything really itself
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Spoiler: 4-4
Well, even if he isn't a good lawyer, he's a good person.
(And one has to have SOME skill to be able to bluff so effectively. 
)
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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c. Alluvion wrote:
Why is Phoenix's judgement in 4-4 considered so terrible? My memory of the case is hazy, but
Well, even if he isn't a good lawyer, he's a good person. (And one has to have SOME skill to be able to bluff so effectively. )
Spoiler: 4-4
Well, even if he isn't a good lawyer, he's a good person.
(And one has to have SOME skill to be able to bluff so effectively. )Spoiler:
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Spoiler:
And back to the original question:
I think Phoenix would make a hell of a lot better prosecutor than a defense lawyer in 'real life'. Phoenix always defends his clients not by providing a good defense (forgive the pun), but a good offense. He protects his clients by proving that another, different person did the murder, not by proving that his client couldn't/wouldn't be able to do the murder. But Phoenix is good enough to have his own impersonator, and of all the cases we've seen, he has only lost twice. And considering that 99% of all court cases end with a guilty verdict, I have to concede that he has to have some sort of ability to defend his clients. And Mia didn't blatantly tell him what to do, she just dropped these annoyingly cryptic hints that, in the end, didn't help me at all. So I think Phoenix is pretty good.
But CAPCOM should make a game where Phoenix gets to actually prove that he is an elite defense lawyer, not being helped in any way by Maya, Ema, or Mia. The only time that he didn't get any major help from his assistant during court was 1-5, and I loved that case.
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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The Objector wrote:
But CAPCOM should make a game where Phoenix gets to actually prove that he is an elite defense lawyer, not being helped in any way by Maya, Ema, or Mia. The only time that he didn't get any major help from his assistant during court was 1-5, and I loved that case.
Spoiler:
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Because while Phoenix is someone with a good mind and a good personality, he's lucked out on the fact that most of his clients were innocent from the start. In a trial where he would be hired to plead guilty and reduce the sentence, I doubt he would fare as well as he did.
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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The Objector wrote:
About the whole "Phoenix's judgment' about the evidence he recieved
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
I think you're very right about him making a better prosecutor than a defense attorney. I remembering replaying 3-2 and being surprised by how much more focused Phoenix was on getting the killer than freeing his client (of course, getting the killer is how he frees clients, but he seemed to have a particularly strong drive in that case). Not to mention how useful the magatama would be in an actual interrogation!
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Croik wrote:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Salutation Here wrote:
Croik wrote:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Spoiler: 4-4
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Gerkuman wrote:
Spoiler: 4-4
That's true. I always thought that was a bit stupid anyway, the way
Spoiler:
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Salutation Here wrote:
Spoiler:
Phoenix's prosecutors may have not taken that specific tactic but they were all underhanded, and had a habit of presenting evidence themselves that was incomplete or very suspicious, so in the end I think it evens out.
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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I read the title and I was all: "OF COURSE HE IS D:!", but now I'm not so sure
He does have terrible knowlegde, but that understandable since we're actually the players, and I ain't know nothing 'bout no law. Bluffing is a talent itsself, there are a lot of things in life in which you got to bluff a little. As for the help from others, I must argee. But still, it's only natural to get some help, you can't do everything alone.
He may not be the best attorney, but he's certainly not the worst (:
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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SharpCookies wrote:
You know, I've been thinking.... and it takes some sort of talent to come up with some of the solutions he does. Sure, he may get a helping hand, but he has to connect the dots and figure out the case himself. And he always does. He's smart when he needs to be and wise when he needs to be (though how can we resist a panicking lawyer?). So, more or less he's a pretty good lawyer. Not the best, maybe not great, but at least pretty good.
Really, I was under the impression he's just a really lucky bugger. With really OP gear. Magatama, conections to the spirit world, evidence... the prosecution shouldn't even stand a chance.
Some of the things he did that makes me doubt his sanity, or at least his intelligence:
1) Confront Manfred von Karma with a piece of evidence WITHOUT a back up plan. Dude, you knew the guy was capable of telling someone to kill, at least have a gun, or make a copy.
2) Letting Franziska whip him out cold to buy more time. Lol, what are you taking a beating for? You have a desk, HIDE UNDER IT.
3) Letting the snob con-artist whack him over the head with a fire extinguisher. In the defendant's lobby. Before a trial. Wow. You really couldn't hear him, could you Mr. Pheonix Wright?
4) Taking that coffee mug to the face. I'll have to teach him how to DUCK.
And finally...
And most importantly..
PASSING UP ON ADRIAN ANDREWS. OMFG WHAT IS UP WITH THAT?! HOW CAN YOU RESIST ADRIAN ANDREWS?! D:
She's just so adorable!
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?
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: I would say NOT.
: But Nick always pulls through!Meh, he's really, really lucky (I mean, those who have played AJ will probably know what I'm talking about...4-2 what the heck?!). But, on the other hand, he's also very determined, which definitely counts for something. I think he lacks something the prosecutors tend to have--arrogance, confidence, etc (well...again, barring that one example...gah, Phoenix, stop being arrogant. -_-), a complete and thorough knowledge of the case and the law--but Phoenix pulls through somehow. ^^ Partly by luck, partly by his own pretty-good logic and intuition, partly by his determination to find the truth, and partly by connections (i.e. Maya, Mia, Pearl, etc). He's a good lawyer, who just happens to have that bit of extra luck he needs when he's facing incredibly difficult cases. (And about Mia...well, it IS pretty hard to do anything when despairing or panicking. ^^ On the other hand, that's why I love Godot. Hits spot on. At least, to Phoenix, he does.
)
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