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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?Topic%20Title
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FirexxxSaber wrote:
In 1-5 I thought he didn't take cases because
Spoiler:
he was depressed about Maya?
Not because he didn't usually take cases...


I think it was in part because of Maya, but the fact that he let that affect him so much that he stopped taking cases doesn't speak well of his work ethic regardless (especially since she was only 2 hours away by train... it's not that far...).
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?Topic%20Title
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Croik wrote:
Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that Phoenix has a very haphazard way of choosing which cases he'll take, and even then takes them rarely. A really good lawyer would be able to take a lot of cases, innocent or guilty, and win most if not all of them - which is probably what Grossberg and Kristoph were doing to get as popular and as rich as they were.


But Phoenix's goal wasn't to be a good technical "lawyer", he was doing it to defend the innocent. We don't know how he would do defending the guilty because he refuses to if he can help it. However, from the little that we see of him in court, it's obvious that he is successful because of his faith in his client, his creative mind, and his perseverence to not let it end until the truth is found (or stalling by bluffing, whatever you want to call it). You can't say that he is lucky that his clients are innocent because even so, in all of his trials he finds himself in a tight spot because most of the evidence goes against his case.

Of course, he isn't as experienced as Maya or Grossberg, but you can't doubt that he has potential. I think that the only thing going against him is that he is just much too lazy, and not dedicated enough to lawyering.
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Regarding what Phoenix would do with a guilty client, in the AA world, there are trials done to evaluate a person's guilt, and should said person be found guilty, they move onto another trial, which is presumably where their lawyer will try to get them a lighter sentence. It's possible that Phoenix only does the first type of trial, and leaves arguing for a reduced sentence to other lawyers.
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Salutation Here wrote:
Regarding what Phoenix would do with a guilty client, in the AA world, there are trials done to evaluate a person's guilt, and should said person be found guilty, they move onto another trial, which is presumably where their lawyer will try to get them a lighter sentence. It's possible that Phoenix only does the first type of trial, and leaves arguing for a reduced sentence to other lawyers.


I'm not sure that's true. In Phoenix's cases he fights to find his client innocent, and after that, the person who he ended up exposing (Redd or Gant or what have you) then ends up having their own trial which the player doesn't see. If Phoenix's client was found guilty (like Engarde) that would be it. The only reason you'd have a trial for someone who was already convicted is if there was some kind of appeal.

Unless you're talking about a preliminary hearing, which is only alluded to once in the series, but that's not to determine guilt or innocence but whether or not there is enough evidence to have a real trial at all.

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But Phoenix's goal wasn't to be a good technical "lawyer", he was doing it to defend the innocent. We don't know how he would do defending the guilty because he refuses to if he can help it.


But that's just my point - a "good lawyer" shouldn't be refusing clients based on his perception of their guilt in the first place. He's certainly good at solving problems and getting the truth out of people, and good at being steadfast and loyal and determined, but those qualities would be just as well suited to detectiving (yay new word). Which is why I see him as a great character and a greater defender and justice and such, but even by 3-5 I wouldn't say he's a great "lawyer".
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As Croik and others have pointed out, Nick is good an figuring things out, and he's pretty lucky. I mean, he gets the strangest junk to actually be true... :keiko:

And while he gets all but one of his clients off the hook, IRL he wouldn't be that good of a lawyer. He always gets by with luck and not to mention he is more concerned with "finding the truth" instead of "defending the client."

Learning what happened with the circumstances in a case is nice and all but if, sy, Matt's trial was real, his attorney would insist that Adrian hired deKiller in order to get Matt off the hook, regardless of Maya.
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?Topic%20Title

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Croik wrote:
Salutation Here wrote:
Regarding what Phoenix would do with a guilty client, in the AA world, there are trials done to evaluate a person's guilt, and should said person be found guilty, they move onto another trial, which is presumably where their lawyer will try to get them a lighter sentence. It's possible that Phoenix only does the first type of trial, and leaves arguing for a reduced sentence to other lawyers.


I'm not sure that's true. In Phoenix's cases he fights to find his client innocent, and after that, the person who he ended up exposing (Redd or Gant or what have you) then ends up having their own trial which the player doesn't see. If Phoenix's client was found guilty (like Engarde) that would be it. The only reason you'd have a trial for someone who was already convicted is if there was some kind of appeal.


Whenever you get a game over, the Judge says that he's referring the case to higher court, so I was guessing that that's to work out the sentencing.
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Oh, I see what you're saying. But we don't know that Phoenix doesn't do that, because...we never get that far past a game over screen XD;. I don't think that indcludes another full trial, though.
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FirexxxSaber wrote:
Is Phoenix Wright actually a good lawyer? I noticed in like every case, someone has to lead him through it.

Spoiler: not sure if this is spoiler or not...
Usually at the end of a case, Phoenix is all 'I can't prove it' and the surprise! Mia pops up.

I think it would be a more surprise ending if Mia didn't pop up, and Phoenix actually solved it on his own... >>


I totaly agree with this. I'm playing through JFA now, and I've ended up sighing all the time at a sudden "HOLD IT!" from 'someone else'.
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I have to agree, too. I've replayed the complete trilogy in German and found myself cussing everytime Mia came out to make the save. Franziska in 2-4 was a different story however. But yes, it's really hard to determine if Phoenix is a good lawyer or not. He lacks some common sense and has an incredible amount of luck.
But I still think he is a good lawyer since he wins every off-screen case he has. At least I think so.

It's basically a writer's choice.

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Noble Savant wrote:
NinjaMonkey wrote:
Personally, I don't think that he's that good a lawyer, given that he's only had 13 cases in 3 years (counting the flashback trial in 4-4). I'd have thought that he'd have had more cases if he was a good lawyer.


I always assumed he had taken more cases in between those, they simply weren't important enough for us to play out, and weren't against the better prosecutors. He did stop taking cases between 1-4 and 1-5, but 2-1 gave a strong impression that he was becoming well known and did take other cases.

For that matter, two one gave us a glimpse of what phoenix can manage when he has more then a day to prepare. Then he got amnesia. Shame really.

Actually, we know that he ONLY took five cases in Game 1, as Edgeworth said in 1-4 "A lawyer with only three trials under his belt?", clearly implying that Phoenix had only had those three cases that we played out beforehand.
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?Topic%20Title
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Well, he is not good experience wise but due to his passion and dedication to justice he always see's the truth eventually and wins. Maybe in the technicalities he is bad, but overall he is good, if only morally. He's my favourite lawyer, :adrian: though, even if he's not 'good'. : P
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Spoiler: 4-4
Well, the one trial he had without Mia (or Maya) he ended up almost losing and then lost his badge soo... (1-5, I believe Mia's spirit called out to him, so all of them had Mia in them I think)


I like to think he is a very good lawyer. But he still seems to be a little helpless even after 3-5. So, I think he has the skills to be a good lawyer with his odd style of defending, but he's still a rookie. It's like, how would you like to be given a task and noone taught you how to do it?
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Spoiler: 2-4
Phoenix could've easily gotten En Garde, a guilty man, off the hook. I think that shows how good he is.
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Saloma wrote:
Spoiler: 2-4
Phoenix could've easily gotten En Garde, a guilty man, off the hook. I think that shows how good he is.


I wouldn't say "easily." He had Edgeworth's help the entire time. :edgy:

Quote:
So, I think he has the skills to be a good lawyer with his odd style of defending, but he's still a rookie. It's like, how would you like to be given a task and noone taught you how to do it?


Phoenix did go to law school, and had Mia as a mentor, so it's not like no one taught him how to be a lawyer. Maybe he just didn't retain any of his education...? :keiko:
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Croik wrote:

Quote:
So, I think he has the skills to be a good lawyer with his odd style of defending, but he's still a rookie. It's like, how would you like to be given a task and noone taught you how to do it?


Phoenix did go to law school, and had Mia as a mentor, so it's not like no one taught him how to be a lawyer. Maybe he just didn't retain any of his education...? :keiko:


He probably didn't considering he said that Mia's law books gave him a headache.
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I think that Phoenix is a pretty good lawyer. Although at times he bluffs his way through a lot and relies on Mia to save him but in 4-4 you see him doing really well on his own without an assistant.
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Croik wrote:
Phoenix did go to law school, and had Mia as a mentor, so it's not like no one taught him how to be a lawyer. Maybe he just didn't retain any of his education...? :keiko:


We're talking about the guy who didn't know what Evidence Law was. Isn't that one of the most important things? I think everyone Phoenix learns: in one ear, out the other. I mean, how many fucking times do I have to hear "Just think outside of the box!"

geo wrote:
I think that Phoenix is a pretty good lawyer. Although at times he bluffs his way through a lot and relies on Mia to save him but in 4-4 you see him doing really well on his own without an assistant.


Spoiler: 4-4
And then loses his badge. :|

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geo wrote:
I think that Phoenix is a pretty good lawyer. Although at times he bluffs his way through a lot and relies on Mia to save him but in 4-4 you see him doing really well on his own without an assistant.

Spoiler: 4-4
And then loses his badge. :|


But that had nothing to do with his skill or talent as a lawyer, All I was trying to say was that he did do pretty well up to that point.
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geo wrote:
I think that Phoenix is a pretty good lawyer. Although at times he bluffs his way through a lot and relies on Mia to save him but in 4-4 you see him doing really well on his own without an assistant.


Spoiler:
He presented evidence that he obtained from his client's 8 year old daughter without bothering to check it authenticity. If Klavier had not been prepared to counter that evidence he would have won, but he might have had to throw Valant under the bus to do it (since that's how Phoenix wins all his cases). Phoenix was really focused and agressive in 4-4 but his judgment wasn't necessarily the best.

Not that Phoenix has ever had the best judgment, showing incriminating evidence to the people he suspects are guilty and all...

Though when you think about it, if Maya had been with Phoenix during that 4-4 case she probably would have supported him presenting the evidence anyway. Now I'm imagining her making some ironic comment of "What's the worst that could happen?"

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Croik wrote:
geo wrote:
I think that Phoenix is a pretty good lawyer. Although at times he bluffs his way through a lot and relies on Mia to save him but in 4-4 you see him doing really well on his own without an assistant.


Spoiler:
He presented evidence that he obtained from his client's 8 year old daughter without bothering to check it authenticity. If Klavier had not been prepared to counter that evidence he would have won, but he might have had to throw Valant under the bus to do it (since that's how Phoenix wins all his cases). Phoenix was really focused and agressive in 4-4 but his judgment wasn't necessarily the best.

Not that Phoenix has ever had the best judgment, showing incriminating evidence to the people he suspects are guilty and all...

Though when you think about it, if Maya had been with Phoenix during that 4-4 case she probably would have supported him presenting the evidence anyway. Now I'm imagining her making some ironic comment of "What's the worst that could happen?"


That's what I mean by my comment earlier.

Haha, I could just imagine Maya saying that. It would've been perfect.
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In my opinion he's a good lawyer by the 3rd game stand point in the 1st he relies on Mia for help too much and I would like to see how he would fair in a trial without any side help for once guiding him along.
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It depends if Phoenix had any aces up his sleeve that he chose to hide from the player.

If not, no, he was pretty awful without Mia. GS4 just makes this even more apparent.
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FirexxxSaber wrote:
Is Phoenix Wright actually a good lawyer? I noticed in like every case, someone has to lead him through it.
Spoiler: not sure if this is spoiler or not...
Usually at the end of a case, Phoenix is all 'I can't prove it' and the surprise! Mia pops up.
I think it would be a more surprise ending if Mia didn't pop up, and Phoenix actually solved it on his own... >>

Also...
Spoiler: 1-5
How is it that Phoenix doesn't know basic lawyer things, like evidence law? What did he learn at law school? O.o

And so many times, Phoenix has just bluffed his way through cases until the very very end.
So, is he an actual good lawyer? I haven't played AJ yet, so I don't know how he acts in that...
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Why is Phoenix's judgement in 4-4 considered so terrible? My memory of the case is hazy, but

Spoiler: 4-4
The diary page thing in particular bugs me. It's reasonable to assume that the diary page was legit, and just a bit late in coming. If it were real piece of evidence that had been found just before the trial, it would have to be shown to the defense and the prosecution. Trucy could have just been delivering it for the baliff. The circumstances are weird, but Vera's forgery was perfect, right down to the handwriting and the tear of the page. To assume it was a forgery would have been weird. Besides, he had no way to check its authenticity during court, and if he didn't present the page, he would have lost anyway.

That, and (here my memory is really hazy) Phoenix really seemed to be wiping the floor with Klavier for a while there. And Valant seemed REALLY suspicious. It's not a huge leap from suspicious to guilty, especially when he's the only other possibility.

He still got disbarred, of course, but...


Well, even if he isn't a good lawyer, he's a good person. :edgy: (And one has to have SOME skill to be able to bluff so effectively. :hobohodo:)
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c. Alluvion wrote:
Why is Phoenix's judgement in 4-4 considered so terrible? My memory of the case is hazy, but

Spoiler: 4-4
The diary page thing in particular bugs me. It's reasonable to assume that the diary page was legit, and just a bit late in coming. If it were real piece of evidence that had been found just before the trial, it would have to be shown to the defense and the prosecution. Trucy could have just been delivering it for the baliff. The circumstances are weird, but Vera's forgery was perfect, right down to the handwriting and the tear of the page. To assume it was a forgery would have been weird. Besides, he had no way to check its authenticity during court, and if he didn't present the page, he would have lost anyway.

That, and (here my memory is really hazy) Phoenix really seemed to be wiping the floor with Klavier for a while there. And Valant seemed REALLY suspicious. It's not a huge leap from suspicious to guilty, especially when he's the only other possibility.

He still got disbarred, of course, but...


Well, even if he isn't a good lawyer, he's a good person. :edgy: (And one has to have SOME skill to be able to bluff so effectively. :hobohodo:)


Spoiler:
Bailiff's don't deliver evidence via 8 year olds... :meekins:

Not to mention Phoenix has never received evidence (official evidence) from any law enforcement officer in this manner. He got most of his evidence the night before when he took the case. Something coming in late wouldn't have been suspicious if it had actually been dropped off by Gumshoe, but the own defendant's daughter said "Some guy gave this to me to give to you." He didn't even get Zak to confirm that it was related or relevant before presenting it.

He might have been about to lose if he didn't present it, so he didn't have *much* of a choice, but he certainly made Kristoph's job a lot easier by being so gullible...!

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About the whole "Phoenix's judgment' about the evidence he recieved
Spoiler:
I think that Phoenix didn't originally choose to use that piece of evidence. But in all of the previous cases that we've played, Phoenix has had some sort of edge over the prosecution (well, sometimes). This usually comes in the form of him finding something the prosecution overlooked, or he dragged out of a witness using the Magatama. BUt in 4-4, he didn't get to do that. So at the moment when he chose to present that evidence, I don't think he had a choice. It was do or die then. I think.


And back to the original question:

I think Phoenix would make a hell of a lot better prosecutor than a defense lawyer in 'real life'. Phoenix always defends his clients not by providing a good defense (forgive the pun), but a good offense. He protects his clients by proving that another, different person did the murder, not by proving that his client couldn't/wouldn't be able to do the murder. But Phoenix is good enough to have his own impersonator, and of all the cases we've seen, he has only lost twice. And considering that 99% of all court cases end with a guilty verdict, I have to concede that he has to have some sort of ability to defend his clients. And Mia didn't blatantly tell him what to do, she just dropped these annoyingly cryptic hints that, in the end, didn't help me at all. So I think Phoenix is pretty good.

But CAPCOM should make a game where Phoenix gets to actually prove that he is an elite defense lawyer, not being helped in any way by Maya, Ema, or Mia. The only time that he didn't get any major help from his assistant during court was 1-5, and I loved that case.
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The Objector wrote:
But CAPCOM should make a game where Phoenix gets to actually prove that he is an elite defense lawyer, not being helped in any way by Maya, Ema, or Mia. The only time that he didn't get any major help from his assistant during court was 1-5, and I loved that case.


Spoiler:
Ema was a huge help. But at the end, I believe that Mia's spirit spoke to Phoenix.

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Is Phoenix a good lawyer? It depends - Does good mean "skillful" or "of esteemed character".

Because while Phoenix is someone with a good mind and a good personality, he's lucked out on the fact that most of his clients were innocent from the start. In a trial where he would be hired to plead guilty and reduce the sentence, I doubt he would fare as well as he did.
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Is Phoenix a good lawyer? I suppose in the Ace Attorney universe, but when applied to real life...well, I try not to compare AA to real life. It hurts.
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The Objector wrote:
About the whole "Phoenix's judgment' about the evidence he recieved
Spoiler:
I think that Phoenix didn't originally choose to use that piece of evidence. But in all of the previous cases that we've played, Phoenix has had some sort of edge over the prosecution (well, sometimes). This usually comes in the form of him finding something the prosecution overlooked, or he dragged out of a witness using the Magatama. BUt in 4-4, he didn't get to do that. So at the moment when he chose to present that evidence, I don't think he had a choice. It was do or die then. I think.


Spoiler:
I think that's kind of the point - Phoenix was trying to rely on all the things he had done in the past, and it got him in trouble. That wasn't the first time he presented evidence that he hadn't gained through normal means, wasn't the first time he tried to bluff without knowing all the facts. It was just the first time he got really called out for it.


I think you're very right about him making a better prosecutor than a defense attorney. I remembering replaying 3-2 and being surprised by how much more focused Phoenix was on getting the killer than freeing his client (of course, getting the killer is how he frees clients, but he seemed to have a particularly strong drive in that case). Not to mention how useful the magatama would be in an actual interrogation!
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Croik wrote:

Spoiler:
Bailiff's don't deliver evidence via 8 year olds... :meekins:


Spoiler:
I don't know, I wouldn't put it past Meekins.
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Salutation Here wrote:
Croik wrote:

Spoiler:
Bailiff's don't deliver evidence via 8 year olds... :meekins:


Spoiler:
I don't know, I wouldn't put it past Meekins.


Spoiler:
Things like that are why he got fired. :meekins:

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Spoiler: 4-4
It looks to me that Klavier only pushed the issue of the page to trap Phoenix. In a normal court of law, the book itself would be enough to cause enough doubt. But Klavier siced the Judge on him and wouldn't allow him to present the book again, forcing Nick to use it. Sure he was stupid enough to keep it in the first place, but if it wasn't for Kristoph's tipping off he wouldn't have needed to present it anyway.

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Gerkuman wrote:
Spoiler: 4-4
It looks to me that Klavier only pushed the issue of the page to trap Phoenix. In a normal court of law, the book itself would be enough to cause enough doubt. But Klavier siced the Judge on him and wouldn't allow him to present the book again, forcing Nick to use it. Sure he was stupid enough to keep it in the first place, but if it wasn't for Kristoph's tipping off he wouldn't have needed to present it anyway.


That's true. I always thought that was a bit stupid anyway, the way

Spoiler:
Klavier tells Phoenix not to present some evidence, and Phoenix is suddenly disallowed from doing so? Why can Klavier get away with that when no other prosecutor can? I mean, Phoenix's other cases would have gone very differently if Edgeworth had been allowed to somehow forbid him from presenting stuff he didn't like.
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?Topic%20Title
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nuuuuu, stoooooop

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Salutation Here wrote:
Spoiler:
Klavier tells Phoenix not to present some evidence, and Phoenix is suddenly disallowed from doing so? Why can Klavier get away with that when no other prosecutor can? I mean, Phoenix's other cases would have gone very differently if Edgeworth had been allowed to somehow forbid him from presenting stuff he didn't like.


Phoenix's prosecutors may have not taken that specific tactic but they were all underhanded, and had a habit of presenting evidence themselves that was incomplete or very suspicious, so in the end I think it evens out.
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Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?Topic%20Title
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Esta un pollo en mís pantalones

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Damn, this thread made me think.
I read the title and I was all: "OF COURSE HE IS D:!", but now I'm not so sure

He does have terrible knowlegde, but that understandable since we're actually the players, and I ain't know nothing 'bout no law. Bluffing is a talent itsself, there are a lot of things in life in which you got to bluff a little. As for the help from others, I must argee. But still, it's only natural to get some help, you can't do everything alone.
Even though having a dead one, 2 childeren and a magic stone to help you is quite.. weird

He may not be the best attorney, but he's certainly not the worst (:
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Mr. Ygrrjfjdosowhatever

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Wait, why is it that...
Spoiler: GS4
When von Karma gets caught using forged evidence, he gets a itty bitty mark on his record and is allowed to win the case anyway, but when Phoenix does it, he is disbarred and he automatically loses. (Although, losing and being disbarred probably didn't upset Phoenix as much as a mark on his record upset von Karma.)

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True Love~

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You know, I've been thinking.... and it takes some sort of talent to come up with some of the solutions he does. Sure, he may get a helping hand, but he has to connect the dots and figure out the case himself. And he always does. He's smart when he needs to be and wise when he needs to be (though how can we resist a panicking lawyer?). So, more or less he's a pretty good lawyer. Not the best, maybe not great, but at least pretty good.
Re: Is Phoenix Actually A Good Lawyer?Topic%20Title
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^ The son of Phoenix and Adrian Andrews.

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SharpCookies wrote:
You know, I've been thinking.... and it takes some sort of talent to come up with some of the solutions he does. Sure, he may get a helping hand, but he has to connect the dots and figure out the case himself. And he always does. He's smart when he needs to be and wise when he needs to be (though how can we resist a panicking lawyer?). So, more or less he's a pretty good lawyer. Not the best, maybe not great, but at least pretty good.

Really, I was under the impression he's just a really lucky bugger. With really OP gear. Magatama, conections to the spirit world, evidence... the prosecution shouldn't even stand a chance.
Some of the things he did that makes me doubt his sanity, or at least his intelligence:
1) Confront Manfred von Karma with a piece of evidence WITHOUT a back up plan. Dude, you knew the guy was capable of telling someone to kill, at least have a gun, or make a copy.
2) Letting Franziska whip him out cold to buy more time. Lol, what are you taking a beating for? You have a desk, HIDE UNDER IT.
3) Letting the snob con-artist whack him over the head with a fire extinguisher. In the defendant's lobby. Before a trial. Wow. You really couldn't hear him, could you Mr. Pheonix Wright?
4) Taking that coffee mug to the face. I'll have to teach him how to DUCK.

And finally...
And most importantly..

PASSING UP ON ADRIAN ANDREWS. OMFG WHAT IS UP WITH THAT?! HOW CAN YOU RESIST ADRIAN ANDREWS?! D:
:adrian-crunch: She's just so adorable!
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"Blood Elf logic is flawless. Just don't get me started on my hair."
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Good lawyer...eh...

:edgeworth: : I would say NOT.
:larry: : But Nick always pulls through!

Meh, he's really, really lucky (I mean, those who have played AJ will probably know what I'm talking about...4-2 what the heck?!). But, on the other hand, he's also very determined, which definitely counts for something. I think he lacks something the prosecutors tend to have--arrogance, confidence, etc (well...again, barring that one example...gah, Phoenix, stop being arrogant. -_-), a complete and thorough knowledge of the case and the law--but Phoenix pulls through somehow. ^^ Partly by luck, partly by his own pretty-good logic and intuition, partly by his determination to find the truth, and partly by connections (i.e. Maya, Mia, Pearl, etc). He's a good lawyer, who just happens to have that bit of extra luck he needs when he's facing incredibly difficult cases. (And about Mia...well, it IS pretty hard to do anything when despairing or panicking. ^^ On the other hand, that's why I love Godot. Hits spot on. At least, to Phoenix, he does. :godot: )
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